Dawn of War Deployment

[Mobious]

So when you deploy for Dawn of War you are allowed to place an HQ and 2 troops. With the rule as I understand it you could place, for example, two rhinos full of Space Marines and then proceed to place an HQ. But in my local store the way I have been told to play it counts the rhino as a troop, thus only allowing me to field either one rhino or two foot squads of troops.

I cannot find any place in the rule book that supports this claim, but I do not like to start problems, and trying to change a rule which has been followed for years could do that very thing.

So my question is whether my store has got it right or not. Is there a place in the rules that forbids placing more than one troop transport? Is this just some old rule gone unchecked or an attempt to hamper mech?

[Xai]

Well a Rhino isn't even a "troop" selection, it's a dedicated transport and it doesn't take up a slot in the force organization chart, so I'm not sure where they came up with the idea that it counts as a troop. By that logic you could put down two empty rhinos and say that those are your troop deployments? I don't think so.

In all my games, a unit of marines is a troop, and if they buy a rhino it's just the gear/transport that goes with them, so there is no restriction. Seems kind of silly that your LGS would even state this as a factual rule.

[Asbo]

The store is correct,
if you check the example giving on page 93 "player B deploys a unit of troops, already embarked into their dedicated transport (which is his second unit of troops)"

[Jwolf]

This is one of the more surprising mistakes that people make. It's surprising because, as Asbo posted, the rules in the rulebook are clearly spelled out.

Another is people attempting to deploy an entire Imperial Guard Platoon as a single troops unit. Imperial Guard Platoons are a single troops choice, but at least 3 different units. Maybe the confusion arises from poor reading of the Platoon rules, which simply make Platoons enter from Reserves on a single roll, nothing else.

[Grotzooka]

Another is people attempting to deploy an entire Imperial Guard Platoon as a single troops unit. Imperial Guard Platoons are a single troops choice, but at least 3 different units.
Woops.

[Jwolf]

To be fair, if you combined squads, you could deploy a Platoon as a Platoon HQ and then a Combined Platoon Squad of up to 55 models (10 Guardsmen and 5 Commissars).

[BuFFo]

you deploy units, not FOC selections.

the rhino is a unit, so is the marines riding inside. thats two units for your troops. easy.

even easier when the rules flat out explain it UNDER the Dawn of War rules as an OVERT example where it states the transport and the unit inside are two different units... Simply ridiculous that people can't read this stuff sometimes....

[Culven]

I think that the confusion over IG Infantry Platoons has more to do with the "deploy as a singe choice" part of the rule. It never explains what is meant, so some IG players choose to infer that it means the entire platoon may be deployed asthough it were a single unit in Dawn of War. This probably has more to do with the fact that in standard missions, deploying as a single FOC choice would have no meaning.

As to the original question, the others have answered it. There really isn't any room for interpretation.

[Lord Azaghul]

I think that the confusion over IG Infantry Platoons has more to do with the "deploy as a singe choice" part of the rule. It never explains what is meant, so some IG players choose to infer that it means the entire platoon may be deployed asthough it were a single unit in Dawn of War. This probably has more to do with the fact that in standard missions, deploying as a single FOC choice would have no meaning.

As to the original question, the others have answered it. There really isn't any room for interpretation.

I'm failing to see how there isn't room for 'the entire platoon deploys'... espeically since the rules for the platoon state that they do; AND don't codex rules ALWAYS trump the main rules?

I'm not trying to start an argument. I just don't see how the DOW rules override the platoon rules.:confused:

[Nabterayl]

The codex absolutely overrules the rulebook, but the codex doesn't actually say that platoons count as a single unit. What it says is this:


Each Infantry Platoon counts as a single Troops choice on the force organisation chart when deploying, and is rolled for collectively when rolling for reserves.

The FOC, as we all know, is not organized by units. It's organized by a different unit of measurement, "choices" (see rulebook p. 87: "Sometimes a single choice on the force organisation chart will allow you to select more than one unit" (emphasis added)).

So infantry platoons, though they consist of 3-19 units, are a single choice. They are also rolled for collectively when rolling for reserves, even though ordinarily reserves are rolled for on a unit-by-unit basis.

The fact that the IG codex overrides (with respect to infantry platoons) the rule that reserves are rolled for on a unit-by-unit basis, however, does not mean that the IG codex says that infantry platoons count as a single unit. It doesn't say anything of the kind. In fact, it doesn't even say they are rolled for as a single unit for reserves. It only says they are rolled for collectively.

Since the codex never says that infantry platoons count as a single unit, they don't.

[Mobious]

you deploy units, not FOC selections.

the rhino is a unit, so is the marines riding inside. thats two units for your troops. easy.

even easier when the rules flat out explain it UNDER the Dawn of War rules as an OVERT example where it states the transport and the unit inside are two different units... Simply ridiculous that people can't read this stuff sometimes....

Sorry I did not have a rulebook on me and I was just looking for a definite answer. I did not realize that this would bother you so badly. Once again I am sorry that I do not study the rule book I do not have.

[DarkLink]

Don't worry about it, that's just Buffo being Buffo.

Though you probably should get a copy of the core rule book, in some form. I have a pdf of it, and used to have the little AoBR book, until I lost it :mad:.

[Melissia]

This is one of the more surprising mistakes that people make. It's surprising because, as Asbo posted, the rules in the rulebook are clearly spelled out.

Another is people attempting to deploy an entire Imperial Guard Platoon as a single troops unit. Imperial Guard Platoons are a single troops choice, but at least 3 different units. Maybe the confusion arises from poor reading of the Platoon rules, which simply make Platoons enter from Reserves on a single roll, nothing else.

And the problem there is that you end up not being able to deploy an entire platoon at once, which is just awkward to say the least. I usually let people houserule being able to deploy a bit more than the actual BRB says, myself, IE two troops choices rather than two troops units.

[BuFFo]

Sorry I did not have a rulebook on me and I was just looking for a definite answer. I did not realize that this would bother you so badly. Once again I am sorry that I do not study the rule book I do not have.

The rules forum is not your source for a free Warhammer 40k Rules Book.

If you do not own the book, you need to buy it.

[Culven]

And the problem there is that you end up not being able to deploy an entire platoon at once, which is just awkward to say the least.
Why do you feel that deploying part of the platoon is awkward? Dawn of War is supposed to be an engagement which starts with two scouting forces coming into contact and calling in the rest of the army later. I think that it would be appropriate that the platoon is spread out over the area, and only a few squads from the platoon begin the engagement on the table.

[DarkLink]

The rules forum is not your source for a free Warhammer 40k Rules Book.

If you do not own the book, you need to buy it.

At least this isn't as bad as warseer. I see rules threads on there like "I'm too lazy to look up the rule in my book, someone tell me what page it's on."

[Old_Paladin]

The rules forum is not your source for a free Warhammer 40k Rules Book.
If you do not own the book, you need to buy it.

Now, to be fair. He said he didn't have his rulebook on him.
Not, that he doesn't own a rulebook.

@DarkLink. That made me laugh; but in a sad way, since it's true. I've even seen the 'whats the stats and point cost of x unit' threads on warseer (although they tend to be locked pretty fast).

[Lord Azaghul]

Why do you feel that deploying part of the platoon is awkward? Dawn of War is supposed to be an engagement which starts with two scouting forces coming into contact and calling in the rest of the army later. I think that it would be appropriate that the platoon is spread out over the area, and only a few squads from the platoon begin the engagement on the table.

I didn't have my book on my yesterday, so I with held any further comments - thus while at home I reread my rules (for the billionth time I'm sure). I understand why people say you can't - but I'm pretty sure guard are the exception to the DOW ruleset, or rather the guard platoon is. The problem comes from the platoon rules using the word 'deploy' as in when you deploy - it is not a tag on to any mission type, it is simply when you deploy. In the same token I believe you can't place one squad in reserve with a valkyrie seperately, because the rules say 'collectively'. However I also believe the subject is muddled, because of the word 'unit' in the DOW rules, and the example given. To me this is a case of the codex trumping the main rule book - nothing more.

My weakest argument for that having it is that gw would have FAQ'd if they didn't! - it easily could have been that they didn't faq it because the felt is was obvious that you they all deployed, however it could have been just as obvious to them that they didn't!

[Old_Paladin]

I think Dawn of War is very clear that only 3 units are going to be there at the start of the battle; not 3 choices/options.
Do you really think that the Guard Codex means that you get you HQ and 2 full platoons.
If some one put down the platoon command squad, 5 infantry squads, a pair of heavy squads, a pair of special weapon squads and 30 conscripts, THEN said "Oh, that's only half my stuff. 'Cuz I get to set up 2 of these!"
Guard already have an advantage in Dawn of War, they don't need extra help and rule bending.

[Lord Azaghul]

I think Dawn of War is very clear that only 3 units are going to be there at the start of the battle; not 3 choices/options.
Guard already have an advantage in Dawn of War, they don't need extra help and rule bending.

What advantage do guard have in DOW??? Especially if they don't have their platoon rules?

I don't think it's rule bending. The platoon rules are pretty clear, you don't split up the platoon on deployment. So yes I believe that they could drop two full platoon and an HQ in DOW. Especially since precedent is that the codex trumps the main rule book.

The conflict is that the 'deployment' rules for the platoon do not mesh with the 'deployment' rules for DOW, mainly being the edition of the word 'unit'. The platoon rules make no mention of 'unit' they only address 'deployment'. Personally - I think its an intended bonus to running a platoon.

The way we play in my area is that the latoon rules override the DOW rules, since they are in the codex.

[Old_Paladin]

What advantage do guard have in DOW??? Especially if they don't have their platoon rules?

Um... combined squads! At that point, it's one squad. That can be 50+ models, with up 5 special weapons and/or heavy weapons, that is stubborn with a leadership of 9, with 6-10 close combat specialists.


That interpration is quiet the bending of the rules. I understand that codex beats rulebook, but only when it's clear that it does so.
This isn't a case of crisis suits may assault after rapid firing, or Gazzies rule that you can move 6" for fleet for 2 turns.

It doesn't actually say anything about over-riding the rules. If platoon rules said, for deployement a platoon counts as a single unit; then yes, you could. The rules say, they must be deployed together. In that case, if you cannot deploy them together, then you cannot play them until you can. Because that interpration fits just as well as yours.
Look at it this way. The rules say, deploy no more then 2 units. And the guard rules say when deploying this FOC choice all 3+ units are deployed at the same moment. It doesn't say that you play any single unit the rest are then deployed with it. It also doesn't force you to put them on the field (it doesn't say you must begin the game with a fully deployed platoon).

[Melissia]

Why do you feel that deploying part of the platoon is awkward?

Fluff reasons, mostly.

[Mobious]

I own a book, I just left it home for my cousin to use when I left home for school. Anyway, my bad, I guess my friends and I did not read carefully enough. Either way I now have my answer thanks to everyone here. :D

[Jwolf]

What advantage do guard have in DOW??? Especially if they don't have their platoon rules?

I don't think it's rule bending. The platoon rules are pretty clear, you don't split up the platoon on deployment. So yes I believe that they could drop two full platoon and an HQ in DOW. Especially since precedent is that the codex trumps the main rule book.

The conflict is that the 'deployment' rules for the platoon do not mesh with the 'deployment' rules for DOW, mainly being the edition of the word 'unit'. The platoon rules make no mention of 'unit' they only address 'deployment'. Personally - I think its an intended bonus to running a platoon.

The way we play in my area is that the latoon rules override the DOW rules, since they are in the codex.

Guard do exceptionally well in Dawn of War. First, Dawn of War makes going second against Drop armies even better. Second, because Guard have more range, which means that the 12" or more that armies have to cover helps. Third, because having nothing on the board means that your opponent is guessing blind as to where you will be, which means defeat in detail is more possible (again, if you go second). Fourth because, if you go first, you can be positioned to massacre the enemy when night ends, while experiencing almost no risk of Sieze the Initiative ruining your day. Fifth being that Guard have lots of units and models, it is easier for a Guard player to appear to be all in after Dawn of War entry but still have important and capable units held in Reserve (this does not have to be some secret thing, I have found that even veteran players make assumptions).

The platoon deployment rules make no mention of a platoon deploying as a single unit, but it does mention them as a single choice, and the rulebook clearly differentiates between units and choices (MULTIPLE UNIT CHOICES, P.92). Any imagined "codex trumps rulebook" issue is simply misreading the rules.

[Sam]

I didn't have my book on my yesterday, so I with held any further comments - thus while at home I reread my rules (for the billionth time I'm sure). I understand why people say you can't - but I'm pretty sure guard are the exception to the DOW ruleset, or rather the guard platoon is. The problem comes from the platoon rules using the word 'deploy' as in when you deploy - it is not a tag on to any mission type, it is simply when you deploy. In the same token I believe you can't place one squad in reserve with a valkyrie seperately, because the rules say 'collectively'. However I also believe the subject is muddled, because of the word 'unit' in the DOW rules, and the example given. To me this is a case of the codex trumping the main rule book - nothing more.

My weakest argument for that having it is that gw would have FAQ'd if they didn't! - it easily could have been that they didn't faq it because the felt is was obvious that you they all deployed, however it could have been just as obvious to them that they didn't!


The IG codex states that: "Each Infantry Platoon counts as a single Troops choice on the force organization chart when deploying, and is rolled for collectively when rolling for reserves."

It does not say the entire platoon deploys at once. It says the platoon counts as a single troops choice on the FOC when deploying. Which means absolutely nothing, because FOC choices are not used to determine what you can deploy, units are. The platoon does not count as a single unit and can be deployed all at once (unless prohibited from doing so by, for instance, DOW deployment rules) or be partially deployed and partially held in reserves. Anything from the platoon that is held in reserve comes in on a single reserves roll.

Note: I play IG, Orks, Nids, CSM, and SW. I deploy at most three squads when playing IG with DOW deployment, and my IG suffer from this no more than any of my other armies.