Wave Serpents: Serpent Shield and Spirit Stones

[schulzed]

Hey, I'm sorry if this has been asked elsewhere, but I haven't seen it. What is the order that you resolve the effects that these pieces of wargear have?

Example 1, do you have to choose to downgrade a penetrating hit to a glance with the Serpent shield, and then if you fail (and it's either a Shaken or Stunned result) you can attempt to use the Stones?

Example 2, Do you let the opponent roll the result, and if it's Shaken or Stunned, you can try to ignore them with Stones, and if they don't work you can use the Serpent Shield.

I'm sorry if this isn't clear, but I think the general idea should get across. Let me know how this should be played, it's mostly just curiosity on my part.

[Nabterayl]

I think the order has to be example 1. Serpent Shield comes into play the moment your opponent has rolled a penetrating hit. The spirit stones come into play after he's rolled damage, which is a later step in the process.

[Magpie]

What Nab said (as always), the items have different effects at different stages of the attack v vehicle process.

[Xenith]

Why would you ever not use the serpent shield?

Assuming you havent fired it last turn, you gain nothing by not rolling to downgrade the pen to a glance, you lose the hullpoint either way.

In your example2: The serpent shield has the effect of ignoring the shaken/stunned on a 2+, because it removes the effect of the penetrating hit.

[JMichael]

You don't get to choose on the Serpent Sheild.
Assuming you did not shoot it last turn, you MUST roll to downgrade Pens to Glances. Codex p67.
The only reason I could see you not wanting to anyway is in the hopes of an explodes result...

[magickbk]

If one were hoping for a wreck so that they could assault the following turn.

[Asuryan]

If one were hoping for a wreck so that they could assault the following turn.

That doesn't work, pg 8 of the BRB faq:

Q: If a unit disembarks from a destroyed vehicle during the enemy
turn, can it Charge in the Assault phase of its own turn? (p80)
A: No, unless the vehicle in question was an Assault
Vehicle.

[magickbk]

That doesn't work, pg 8 of the BRB faq:

Q: If a unit disembarks from a destroyed vehicle during the enemy
turn, can it Charge in the Assault phase of its own turn? (p80)
A: No, unless the vehicle in question was an Assault
Vehicle.

Well, it was true in previous editions, at any rate. Good thing the transports I use in this edition are assault, I guess.

[schulzed]

Thanks for the input guys. From the responses, I can see the question was a tad ambiguous. I wasn't questioning if you could choose whether or not to use one of these pieces of wargear, but the order you could use them in, or the time their effects were activated. I think Nab has it right though. Thanks again!

[DarkLink]

Even if it wasn't pretty obvious that the Serpent Shield goes first, it wouldn't even matter if it went second. You'd roll for the penetrating hit and Spirit Stones, then completely ignore what you just rolled because the Shield would downgrade that penetrating hit.

[Magpie]

Around my way once you roll for the damage results of a penetrating hit, the opportunity to roll for things like cover saves, downgrading the pen to a glance etc has passed.

[DarkLink]

Which is why I said it's obvious which one comes first.

[Magpie]

Sure but you also said it doesn't matter if you don't do it in order.

[DarkLink]

If it specified to do it in that order, it's explicit that you get the downgrade, so you would get it even after rolling for damage (similar to, say, Venerable Dreadnoughts rerolling damage). Either way, you get the downgrade. It just doesn't make sense to do it backwards.

[Magpie]

The Ven Dread is totally different as it is specifically a re-roll of the damage result.

[Edit, No Idea why I wrote this: like the Spirit Stones so it can't not be done after rolling on the damage table.]

The Serpent Shield allows you to downgrade a pen, but if you don't roll for it prior to the damage table result being rolled then you have missed your chance.
It's like forgetting to roll for reserves before moving a unit.

[Deathboon]

The Ven Dread is totally different as it is specifically a re-roll of the damage result, like the Spirit Stones so it can't not be done after rolling on the damage table.

The Serpent Shield allows you to downgrade a pen, but if you don't roll for it prior to the damage table result being rolled then you have missed your chance.
It's like forgetting to roll for reserves before moving a unit.

Magpie the problem here is that (to use your own phrasing) you can't not roll for the serpent shield just like you can't not roll for reserves. These actions are compulsory and it sets a bad precedent to allow your opponent to forget them. In either situation if you know he needs to roll for the serpent shield and "forget" to remind him you're cheating just as surely as your opponent "forgetting" to roll reserves would also be cheating.

[Tynskel]

Zzzing!

[Magpie]

You could equally say that "forgetting" and then "remembering" later and going back and re rolling all the stuff that should have happened is cheating as well. There is a guy in my area who does this all of the time hence why we tend to be pretty strict.

To be honest leaving it until after you've rolled for damage wouldn't be the end of the world and in most cases I'd allow it no problem, it is however making an allowance and by no means the correct way of doing things which why I say that "it doesn't matter" really isn't the case.

Oh and by the way, Serpent Shield rolls aren't compulsory although the stuff I typed earlier may have looked like I was saying that.

[SacredChao]

The question wasn't really about the benefit of not rolling (the only I can see is hoping it explodes so you have some area terrain for enhanced Go To Ground save) or whether you can, but what order. The wording I believe says "immediately" roll a 2+ to downgrade it. So as soon as the result of a penetration is rolled, you roll the dice, then take cover saves, etc.

However it doesn't *really* matter, in my opinion. regardless of the order, a number of pens/glances are rolled, the 2+ are rolled, some are saved, others not. The order doesn't matter except for one thing. If your opponent rolls the result of the pen first, and it's an "Explodes" his hopes are dashed onto the ground as you roll that 2+ then cover save! Whereas if you fail the 2+ and cover first, his hopes soar like an eagle because he got something through the shields and could mean the death of the vehicle!

So it seems more a psychological benefit, but maybe I'm missing something.

[Finnegan]

[...] more a psychological benefit, [...]

And those are really important :)

[Magpie]

However it doesn't *really* matter, in my opinion. regardless of the order, a number of pens/glances are rolled, the 2+ are rolled, some are saved, others not. The order doesn't matter except for one thing.

The order is important for two reasons.

Firstly simply for expediency, why roll dice you didn't need to?

Second, and you touched on this yourself, it may be that the player wants to disembark their unit but has moved to far to do so. If you allow them to see the result of the Pen before deciding to downgrade you are creating a situation where they could choose not to downgrade an Explodes result so that the transported unit is now disembarked, thus allowing them to have not counted as moving in the next shooting phase.

Sure it's maybe not a very logical move but a situation may arise where choosing not to downgrade the pen is advantageous. Knowing the result of the Pen is not something you should know before making that choice.

[Tynskel]

yeah, follow order of operations!