Astartes Tactics

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Before we go anywhere if you dont know anything about real world tactics, take a look at Battle Drills (http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/EIB/EIB_Related_Battle_Drills/index.shtml).

In the 1,000 Marine Myth there is an argument raging about whether or not Scouts are indeed Marines and there role as a Reconnaissance Force. I believe that Scouts are less recon focused, and indeed more focused on learning all types of warfare. A scout would learn every conceivable battle drill, strategy, and operation from the phalanx and double envelopment to clearing rooms and the intricacies of successfully executing an airborne operation. They spend all their time in training becoming masters of conventional warfare and executing conventional missions on the ground, like the Imperial Guard to an extent.

I use the term conventional warfare (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conventional_warfare) to show that a Space Marine Scout for all intents and purposes is simply a highly trained, expert infantryman. The highest level of the non-special forces designations in the Imperium. A scout is better equipped, more motivated, and better trained (mentally and physically) than any other Imperial trooper (this does not include the specialists or those tampered with).

A Space Marine IS unconventional warfare (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconventional_warfare). For those who wont click the link:

Unconventional warfare is an attempt to achieve military victory through acquiescence, capitulation, or clandestine support for one side of an existing conflict.

A Space Marine is fear, to unleash him upon the enemy is to unleash the enemies darkest nightmares. Every citizen in the Imperium fears and loves the angels of the Emperor and whenever they become traitors, the fiery contrails from they sky is the VERY last thing they wanted to see.

But, we know the psychological effect of the Space Marines, but what about their tactics? What makes them so scary?


First, we need to look at what makes a Space Marine so effective. He is clad in the best armor available, armor so complex it is a vehicle and weapon in its own right. He is gifted with the most damage producing standard infantry weapon available in the Imperium. His mind is as sharp as a razors edge, a regular marine is able to grasp strategy on the same level as any Imperial Guard commander. But what makes him so deadly?

It is the fact he can transcend traditional tactics. To clear a room you need a door or an opening right? What if the door has no opening? In the Space Wolves Short Story in Tales of Heresy, the Space Wolves used breaching charges and the weight of their armor to keep up the momentum of the attack, blowing into room after room, totally circumventing the Dark Eldar defenses arranged to fight warriors coming through a door or portal. One may argue that normal IG and so on can do the same, and I would say you are right, but for Space Marines it takes less effort. A Guardsmen cannot punch through the wall and rip it down, a Sororitas cannot run straight through solid reinforced cinderblock/ferrocrete without being pinned in the rubble like an Astartes. And that is just one example.

A Space Marine's armor allows him to ignore most things a guardsmen must take account for. Like small arms fire. If assaulting a fixed position a marine can simply sprint at it outside the arc of fire of the weapon. A Space Marine is fast enough that he could easily reach the position before the crew has rotated, and if the weapon is of sufficient calibre, it really wont matter if the turn fast enough :D . Obviously this is all dependent on the scenario and terrain and the list goes on, but my point is made. A Space Marine doesn't have to do buddy team rushes, or search for cover. He IS his own cover. He doesn't need concealment, he doesn't need camo, because if he see you, you are dead.

This of course does not mean a Space Marine is invulnerable, quite the opposite. A Space Marine can essential turn the battlefield into something of an obstacle course. His goal isn't to secure an objective, in a traditional sense, it is to destroy all the enemy. THEN secure whatever you were looking for. A Space Marine typically isn't employed to do standard operations. He is a Juggernaught, an enemy eraser. Where you have enemies, he removes them. Where you need things reinforced, send in the guard.

The best way to deal with a Space Marine is Ordnance. His armor makes him powerful, so you take away that advantage. Bolters, Heavy Bolters, Missile, Plasma, Cannons, Lascannons, Sharp Talons, bio-acid, and all make nice power armor crackers. In a universe as deadly as 40K power armor is hardly god mode, but in a basic infantry match up, it is unmatched.

Now add in 9 more Space Marines. If one space marine is an enemy eraser, a single squad is capable of devastation on a whole new level. When references are made to Space Marines taking over whole worlds with single battle companies, it isn't a stretch to see how they do it. They wage Total War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_War), population centers are bombarded from orbit, industrial centers are ruined, crops burned, and God help those poor designated military targets. While the population centers feel the cold and impersonal wrath of the Emperor (which happens to be quite warm), the military targets get a special touch. The Space Marines go down, and PERSONALLY show the traitors/rebels/orks the error of their ways. Because nothing teaches better than being shown just what's wrong with what your doing ;) .

The tactics of a Space Marine are less grounded in reality, and instead based upon fear and the enemy defeating itself mentally. In battle a Space Marine is really just an exterminator, battle drills are one of the many ways a space marine can choose to kill his enemy*. He just kills, that is all he does. He is good for NOTHING else. Even Marneus Calgar, ruler of the most prosperous worlds in the entire Imperium is nothing more than an exterminator. Without war space marines are nothing.




*When Fighting against traitor marines, real world tactics would have to be adopted, and the space marine would have to stop 'playing around'. A Chaos Marine effectively negates anything a Space Marine brings to the table, and will often be better than a regular marine in most everything, due to his long and tough life in the EoT.






Some of this is for one of the articles I am currently working on, but I sincerely hope this sparks some meaningful and fierce debate over how space marines would actually fight.

[Kefka]

Very interesting M2C (can I call you that?)
Well thought out, and what I already had in mind for what a space marine is. A walking tank. Ignoring most firearms as his power armour takes the brunt of it, being able to focus on taking out his targets. He is also highly trained, a century of training and battles will do that. GW fluff often says "Give me 100 space marines, failing that, give me 10,000 regular soldiers." Which points to that fact that a single marine should be equivalent to 100 regular soldiers.
This super powered, highly indestructible force of the imperium uses different tactics because of how they are built. You worry less about getting to the enemy, and more on what to do when you get there. So the route is made shorter, thus, drop pods. Marines use these devices a fair deal, often deploying their whole battle line amongst the enemy. Could you think of another force capable of doing this? (CSM not withstanding) No. Cause SM power armour will protect them, and their powerful guns make killing easy. SM are also far more collected in intense fire-fights, so the sudden assault of gunfire and enemy is easier for them to handle.

I am sure there is more to be said, but I am a military noob...

[Melissia]

One Space Marine is not an army eraser. One Space Marine alone on a battlefield is a corpse waiting to happen. I have never agreed with the assertion that Marines are gods upon the battlefield-- they can be kliled, are regularly killed, they make mistakes, they are imperfect, they can be tricked and manipulated. Marine glorification has always made me roll my eyes and yawn, especially when oftentimes GW's attempts to make Marines look badass makes them instead look like complete morons who survive only through insane levels of plot armor.

[the one]

I agree with melissia. Marine may be badass sometimes but they're definatly not invinsible. But would would a marine be arrogant so to think so, abandonning all form of tatics and just walk though enemy fire shotting their bolters? No. But desipt all this marines die, no matter power armour, cover, biotics and any other way to cheat death in the 41st millnium. If marines were gods of battle this world created by GW is impossible, yet they want marines to be amazing. So in short I agree with you. However it happened they die having fufilled their only purpose in life.

And that is war!

[Sangre]

One Space Marine is not an army eraser. One Space Marine alone on a battlefield is a corpse waiting to happen. I have never agreed with the assertion that Marines are gods upon the battlefield-- they can be kliled, are regularly killed, they make mistakes, they are imperfect, they can be tricked and manipulated. Marine glorification has always made me roll my eyes and yawn, especially when oftentimes GW's attempts to make Marines look badass makes them instead look like complete morons who survive only through insane levels of plot armor.

I find it hilarious that you say "GW's attempts to make Marines look badass." Because GW invented the Space Marines and continue to regulate what they are. You don't. They do. If GW say Marines are badass, then they are badass, because GW made and own them!

[Old_Paladin]

I always love these Space Marines debates for one reason; fluff changes!
Thats right, the abilities of space marines aren't written in stone (just paper) and things get forgotten with time (and new editions and new stories).
I remember a lot of stories where combat squads were all the Space marines needed. 5 guys would always wipe out an army. It was standard story structure.
Then they made marines less and less individually powerfull; it took several squads or even whole companies to get things done.
Now, if they try and go back to the older story modes, people call cheese and say nothing like that is possible.

[Melissia]

Amusing how you focus on only one part of my post-- amusing but not unexpected from a Marine player.

A character can only be as "cool" or "badass" as the quality of the writer allows them to, as well as the willingness of the reader to believe in it. I find Marine fluff to be tripe and trite; furthermore, the fact that they know no fear reduces their badassery by a large margin. Is this merely opinion? Sure. Just like your opinion that if someone says that their creation is badass, they must therefor be. I suspect that my own can be defended far more logically, however.

[entendre_entendre]

SM scouts i think would be more recon oriented than their full fledged brothers, but would still have to learn all the facets of astartes war. as for the initiates, they use their superior training, equipment, and tactics to win their battles. they wouldn't just run at the nearest enemy screaming unless that's exactly what they want to do (i.e. serving as a distraction).
the highly mobile nature as the astartes makes them an excellent counterpoint to the guard. guard: slow, weak troops, rely on superior firepower to win. SM's: fast, strong troops, rely on superior training/tactics to win.

shouldn't this be in the background section? (just sayin'...)

[DarkLink]

In the 1,000 Marine Myth there is an argument raging about whether or not Scouts are indeed Marines and there role as a Reconnaissance Force. I believe that Scouts are less recon focused, and indeed more focused on learning all types of warfare. A scout would learn every conceivable battle drill, strategy, and operation from the phalanx and double envelopment to clearing rooms and the intricacies of successfully executing an airborne operation. They spend all their time in training becoming masters of conventional warfare and executing conventional missions on the ground, like the Imperial Guard to an extent.

I use the term conventional warfare (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conventional_warfare) to show that a Space Marine Scout for all intents and purposes is simply a highly trained, expert infantryman. The highest level of the non-special forces designations in the Imperium. A scout is better equipped, more motivated, and better trained (mentally and physically) than any other Imperial trooper (this does not include the specialists or those tampered with).

A Space Marine IS unconventional warfare (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconventional_warfare). For those who wont click the link:


A Space Marine is fear, to unleash him upon the enemy is to unleash the enemies darkest nightmares. Every citizen in the Imperium fears and loves the angels of the Emperor and whenever they become traitors, the fiery contrails from they sky is the VERY last thing they wanted to see.

But, we know the psychological effect of the Space Marines, but what about their tactics? What makes them so scary?

*When Fighting against traitor marines, real world tactics would have to be adopted, and the space marine would have to stop 'playing around'. A Chaos Marine effectively negates anything a Space Marine brings to the table, and will often be better than a regular marine in most everything, due to his long and tough life in the EoT.
.

Firstly, allow me to quoteth from the Book of the Space Marine (Codex SM); "... acting as part of an infiltration force, a scout will become skilled at every aspect of war... Space Marine Scouts chiefly fight as skirmishers. Their duties are to infiltrate enemy positing ahead of the rest of their chapter, relying on brute force- to accomplish their mission.
Operating behind enemy lines, Scouts set ambushes for the unwary, destroy ammunition dumps and vehicle pools, spy out the enemy's movement and gather what information they can about their opponent's plans. Sometimes Scouts will pounce unseen within an unsuspecting enemy camp, capturing a commander for interrogation or sabotaging equipment and supplies. Striking in silence, the Scouts' goal is to accomplish their mission and vanish before the enemy has the chance to retaliate in force..."

Then, Tactical Marines; "... they are called upon to fulfill the full range of battlefield roles; they hold ground, provide fire support or charge into the bloody melee of close combat, as the ever-changing theater of battle dictates...
...often performing surgical strikes or seizing strategic points with the aid of fast-moving Razorbacks or Rhinos..."

I think you need to re-read the definitions of conventional and unconventional warfare. Scouts clearly fight unconventional warfare. Every aspect of their primary duties are, by definition, unconventional warfare. If you don't believe me, go to Borders and pick up a few memoirs written by Soldiers and Marines who served in the Special Forces. There are plenty, and they'll give you a good idea of what sort of stuff unconventional warfare involves.

Tactical Marines do not, primarily, fight unconventional warfare. They use blitzkrieg tactics and take advantage of superior training and equipment, certainly, but these are still conventional tactics of war. This is not to say that Tactical Marines never fight in unconventional warfare, simply that it is not their normal normal modus operandi. They use conventional tactics to smash key enemy positions, allowing other forces like the Guard to carry the day. In the rare case that there are enough Marines present to hold ground, then those other forces may not be necessary.



Also, something about Chaos Marines; the majority are not 10,000 years old. The vast majority are just the same a loyalist Marines, of similar age, experience and training. Only a few of the original traitor Marines are still around, and all of them are probably Daemon Princes or Warlords by now.

Also, loyalist Marines outnumber traitor Marines by quite a bit, though loyalist Marines much more spread out.

[Melissia]

I suspect that, even if there WERE enough Marines to hold ground, they'd still rather be doing something else if they had a choice. A strike force of Marines isn't as good at defending locations for extended periods of time as a few regiments of Guard (IE, elements of an infantry, an armored, and an arty regiment, which is how the Guard is deployed-- lone regiments rarely are sent in without support). The Guard won't worry as much about ammunition shortages for one, and they have better long ranged weaponry and each loss of men and material effects them less than the same loss would a Marine force.

[Aldramelech]

Lets have some controversy shall we?

I believe that the concept of the Space Marine chapter is best reflected in the real world by one organization, The SS.

I come to this conclusion based not just on a military perspective, but also their political position and attitude within the Imperium.

They are a self contained state within a state, they are a completely independent military force, their recruitment practices are extreme, they are fanatically devoted to the Emperor, they are genetically engineered to be Superior human beings (the ****s could only dream of that) . SS Divisions were moved from one front to the other to bolster flagging regular forces and were used at the spearhead of most major assaults, without them the Eastern Front would have collapsed on several occasions. The SS also were used as the Big Stick to keep the rest of Germany's forces in line, the Party's private army, see any similarities?

Are they tough? Yep. Are they the best troops in the Imperium? You bet. Does the Imperium talk them up with propaganda to make the population believe they are superhuman gods of war? Damm right! Its in their interests to make the people fear them.

From a purely military perspective you can make several comparisons with real world units, but the one that fits the best is probably the U.S. Marine Corps. A self contained all arms force of elite soldiers that is moved around by a huge Navy.

It is the fact he can transcend traditional tactics.

Yes, but tactics are still needed, just different ones. Superior infantry forces throughout history have never been about equipment, its about training and small unit tactics. This was true of the Roman Legions and will always be as long as man walks on the battlefield. The Roman Legionary in his lōrīca segmentāta must have had much the same effect on his barbarian neighbor as the Space Marine does on his opponent's but he still had to fight as a unit and use tactics peculiar to the Roman army for it to work. When ever those tactics weren't used or broke down the invincible Legions got slaughtered.

[RocketRollRebel]

I've always believed marines are kinda one man armys but are meant for surgical strikes rather than prolong battles and holding objectives, thats more the job of the Guard. As for being indestructible there is a Ciaphus Cain novel where something like 5 World Eaters make a mess of hundreds of slaneesh traitors and loyalist pdf troops and nothing short of AT weapons (and our heroic commissar himself :p) seem able to even slow them down.

[DarkLink]

I suspect that, even if there WERE enough Marines to hold ground, they'd still rather be doing something else if they had a choice.

Summed up by this:
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_2HAuhOIOb6s/R8skLiuV1TI/AAAAAAAACfY/6PMLJu6xFmc/40k+Sacrifice.jpg

[Melissia]

I've always believed marines are kinda one man armys but are meant for surgical strikes rather than prolong battles and holding objectives, thats more the job of the Guard. As for being indestructible there is a Ciaphus Cain novel where something like 5 World Eaters make a mess of hundreds of slaneesh traitors and loyalist pdf troops and nothing short of AT weapons (and our heroic commissar himself :p) seem able to even slow them down.

All it took was a krak grenade to mortally wound one of them.

[Sitnam]

All it took was a krak grenade to mortally wound one of them. He said it took a mess of AT weapons. Krak grenades fit that category.

[Melissia]

"A mess of" implies more than one.

[DarkLink]

Well, it only took one direct hit. Hitting a moving target in close quarters combat with an Anti-tank weapon is easier said than done. That's the real advantage of power armor: you need big guns to punch through it, but a mobile, man-sized target is awfully tough to hit. It'd be like having a single RPG in your squad, and you have to get a direct hit to kill the other guy.

[gorepants]

Gotta agree with Aldramelech and Melissia on this one, marines are a specialist force, but they are still just dudes in armour and will go down like anyone else if they stand about in the open.

I doesn't even need a krak grenade, just sleeze onto the wrong girl (http://www.fightingtigersofveda.com/ssin.jpg) or ork (http://i.somethingawful.com/u/elpintogrande/october09/roguetrader/roguetrader_04.gif) and a marine goes down like anyone.

But more seriously, I think the big problem with your thesis is you take the armour before the man - and this is a problem in a lot of spacemarine mythology. You end up with barbarian-knights in armour that you point at a target and say go get 'em since all they need is anger, a lack of fear and armour. This is how a lot of the stories are written and is at odds with the fluff that says they super-smart super-humans. The less steroidal fluff would see them more like the SAS (<insert other special forces here>), in that they are deep insertion small force specialists - their role is not to kill all the enemy but to kill the right enemy to get some particular, strategically important job done. In this respect they are very definition of unconventional soldiers, but send them into the wrong battle undermanned and they will be toast.

And as to scouts being front line troops, I think this misses the whole cost-benefit part of why you would put marines in armour and scouts not on the front line. Making a marine involves a disproportionately large investment of time and resources, and you want to protect that and use it where it counts most. This means: putting them in better armour and being careful about where you put them. Trainees have already shown themselves to be capable fighters, so there is no reason they cannot be fast tracked past frontline duties. Another consideration is that you are dealing with very small forces a scout company is 20-200 men. Fielding the whole company might be enough to fight conventionally, but the cost-benefit of using them like that is heavily in the red, particularly since they are almost marines too.

If I can go back to my AU/UK analogy, marines act like the SAS/SBS - deep insertion, specialist targets, high independence and generaly being hard. Scouts are like commandos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commando), deep insertion, lower indepenedence and not quite as hard. The line is blurred given that in some operations both act like the highly mobile marines in conventional roles, though they lack the proper support infrastucture to act in a fully self contained conventional role like the USCM (few MBTs, no real artillery, poor air superiority, etc).That and being a tiny force - a full marine chapter is barely battalion sized. Stick em in good armour and they can do more, more easily, but they are still going to need some for of tactical decision making because otherwise they are going to make easy targets of themselves. And even if they survive they don't want to get shot up since that means a whole lot of polishing to get that armour back to shiny and new.

Now of course this is in idealisation of the smart side of space marines. Far on the other side is when they act like a bunch of numpties and go around getting angry and charging at things when they don't need to (some times they do need to do this, and military history is littered with people doing extremely heroic things, it's just that in good soldiering this should be the exception not rule). If they are to be an effective fighting force, knowing no fear should mean being unaffraid to act on difficult but calculated descisions, not to just go ove the top in heavy fire because it's the straightest line to the enemy.

And bright colours are still stupid even if you're in armour - you're waiting in ambush when the enemy spot you from 5 miles away and shell you to pieces. Not so good.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Firstly, allow me to quoteth from the Book of the Space Marine (Codex SM); "... acting as part of an infiltration force, a scout will become skilled at every aspect of war... Space Marine Scouts chiefly fight as skirmishers. Their duties are to infiltrate enemy positing ahead of the rest of their chapter, relying on brute force- to accomplish their mission.
Operating behind enemy lines, Scouts set ambushes for the unwary, destroy ammunition dumps and vehicle pools, spy out the enemy's movement and gather what information they can about their opponent's plans. Sometimes Scouts will pounce unseen within an unsuspecting enemy camp, capturing a commander for interrogation or sabotaging equipment and supplies. Striking in silence, the Scouts' goal is to accomplish their mission and vanish before the enemy has the chance to retaliate in force..."

This is does not disprove my assertions, merely reinforces the 'full-spectrum' aspect of them.


I think you need to re-read the definitions of conventional and unconventional warfare. Scouts clearly fight unconventional warfare. Every aspect of their primary duties are, by definition, unconventional warfare. If you don't believe me, go to Borders and pick up a few memoirs written by Soldiers and Marines who served in the Special Forces. There are plenty, and they'll give you a good idea of what sort of stuff unconventional warfare involves.

Haha. I think you need to realize anyone with a weapon can fight conventional or unconventional warfare. I have done an ungodly amount of study, research, and some slight application into this, and I dont think I am wrong. All militaries can do either, as a Space Marine can do either.


Tactical Marines do not, primarily, fight unconventional warfare. They use blitzkrieg tactics and take advantage of superior training and equipment, certainly, but these are still conventional tactics of war. This is not to say that Tactical Marines never fight in unconventional warfare, simply that it is not their normal normal modus operandi. They use conventional tactics to smash key enemy positions, allowing other forces like the Guard to carry the day. In the rare case that there are enough Marines present to hold ground, then those other forces may not be necessary.

It depends on the foe, a Space Marine can be conducting both at the same time, scaring an opponent into capitulation through the terror of his physical being while executing conventional operations.




One Space Marine is not an army eraser. One Space Marine alone on a battlefield is a corpse waiting to happen. I have never agreed with the assertion that Marines are gods upon the battlefield-- they can be kliled, are regularly killed, they make mistakes, they are imperfect, they can be tricked and manipulated. Marine glorification has always made me roll my eyes and yawn, especially when oftentimes GW's attempts to make Marines look badass makes them instead look like complete morons who survive only through insane levels of plot armor.

You, by default, dont get to participate in this discussion ;) . You neither believe marines are good for anything nor the power level established by GW. So since this isn't Astartes Tactics in Melissa 40K, its Astartes Tactics in the real 40K, you assessments and assumption arn't real.


Lets have some controversy shall we?

I believe that the concept of the Space Marine chapter is best reflected in the real world by one organization, The SS.

I come to this conclusion based not just on a military perspective, but also their political position and attitude within the Imperium.

I agree, though some chapter avoid politics.


They are a self contained state within a state, they are a completely independent military force, their recruitment practices are extreme, they are fanatically devoted to the Emperor, they are genetically engineered to be Superior human beings (the ****s could only dream of that) . SS Divisions were moved from one front to the other to bolster flagging regular forces and were used at the spearhead of most major assaults, without them the Eastern Front would have collapsed on several occasions. The SS also were used as the Big Stick to keep the rest of Germany's forces in line, the Party's private army, see any similarities?

Are they tough? Yep. Are they the best troops in the Imperium? You bet. Does the Imperium talk them up with propaganda to make the population believe they are superhuman gods of war? Damm right! Its in their interests to make the people fear them.

From a purely military perspective you can make several comparisons with real world units, but the one that fits the best is probably the U.S. Marine Corps. A self contained all arms force of elite soldiers that is moved around by a huge Navy.

No argument here.


It is the fact he can transcend traditional tactics.

Yes, but tactics are still needed, just different ones. Superior infantry forces throughout history have never been about equipment, its about training and small unit tactics. This was true of the Roman Legions and will always be as long as man walks on the battlefield. The Roman Legionary in his lōrīca segmentāta must have had much the same effect on his barbarian neighbor as the Space Marine does on his opponent's but he still had to fight as a unit and use tactics peculiar to the Roman army for it to work. When ever those tactics weren't used or broke down the invincible Legions got slaughtered.

Well, to be fair, we have never had something as profound as genetically engineered warrior OR power armor. Marines arn't invincible.

[Sitnam]

"A mess of" implies more than one.

To wipe out an entire squad yes. Take into account that those AT weapons would likely need a direct hit to take out a marine, a direct hit on a agile target with a weapon designed to defeat tanks. Yeah, that would require a mess of AT weapons to get the desired number of direct hits.



But more seriously, I think the big problem with your thesis is you take the armour before the man - and this is a problem in a lot of spacemarine mythology. You end up with barbarian-knights in armour that you point at a target and say go get 'em since all they need is anger, a lack of fear and armour. This is how a lot of the stories are written and is at odds with the fluff that says they super-smart super-humans. The less steroidal fluff would see them more like the SAS (<insert other special forces here>), in that they are deep insertion small force specialists - their role is not to kill all the enemy but to kill the right enemy to get some particular, strategically important job done. In this respect they are very definition of unconventional soldiers, but send them into the wrong battle undermanned and they will be toast. You see alot of this in the Forgeworld books, especially Taros and the first two Vraks books (Haven't read 3rd yet.) Marines were inserted t take out a specific target for maximum effect, against overwhelming numbers and firepower.


And bright colours are still stupid even if you're in armour - you're waiting in ambush when the enemy spot you from 5 miles away and shell you to pieces. Not so good. Some chapters will camoflauge their armor, as an example you can look at the Badab war campaign book. Others strike so fast and so sudden from drop pods that such things don't matter as much. But overall, it isn't the smartest tactical choice.

[Melissia]

The bolter would have a hard time destroying a Rhino without getting a rear shot, nevermind a chimera. And even if they do get a rear shot on one of those vehicles, it probably won't destroy it anyway. Marines may be agile, but they're not that much moreso than other veterans experienced in close combat (Cain himself was able to actually outmaneuver a Khornate Champion, who is far more capable in close combat than your average Marine-- Cain is an accomplished individual, but he's still merely human without even any augmetics aside from replaced fingers). And let's face it, they're big targets regardless of their agility. Marines are huge. Seven to eight feet tall or taller, with extremely wide shoulders that are made even wider by ridiculous shoulderpads, and so on and so forth.


You, by default, dont get to participate in this discussion You assume that I care.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

The bolter would have a hard time destroying a Rhino without getting a rear shot, nevermind a chimera. And even if they do get a rear shot on one of those vehicles, it probably won't destroy it anyway. Marines may be agile, but they're not that much moreso than other veterans experienced in close combat (Cain himself was able to actually outmaneuver a Khornate Champion, who is far more capable in close combat than your average Marine-- Cain is an accomplished individual, but he's still merely human without even any augmetics aside from replaced fingers). And let's face it, they're big targets regardless of their agility. Marines are huge. Seven to eight feet tall or taller, with extremely wide shoulders that are made even wider by ridiculous shoulderpads, and so on and so forth.

You assume that I care.

With you I only assume the souls of babies sustain your fiery lust for all things Sisters. Everything else is free game.


EDIT: I should add :P , so you dont think I am trolling.

[Sitnam]

Cain himself was able to actually outmaneuver a Khornate Champion, who is far more capable in close combat than your average Marine-- Cain is an accomplished individual, but he's still merely human without even any augmetics aside from replaced fingers Black Library cannot be taken as seriously as other pieces of fluff because authors consistently bend the rules of what GW sets. Cain is the titular character of the book, did you expect anything more from Sandy Mitchell then to not glorify his creation. BL is a good source of fluff, but with grains of salt. And as you said, Cain is an EXTREMLY well accomplished human.


The bolter would have a hard time destroying a Rhino without getting a rear shot, nevermind a chimera. And even if they do get a rear shot on one of those vehicles, it probably won't destroy it anyway. The marines have meltaguns and other AT guns for destorying transports, so why does it matter the bolters effectiveness?


And let's face it, they're big targets regardless of their agility. Marines are huge. Seven to eight feet tall or taller, with extremely wide shoulders that are made even wider by ridiculous shoulderpads, and so on and so forth. And yet they still are a fair amount smaller then even a Rhino. Anti-Tank weapons are designed to destroy vehicles. Trying to destroy even a large man-sized, that can move with much more agility (Taking cover, moving from side to side) with weapons designed to kill large , unagile vehicles would be difficult.

[Aldramelech]

And yet they still are a fair amount smaller then even a Rhino. Anti-Tank weapons are designed to destroy vehicles. Trying to destroy even a large man-sized, that can move with much more agility (Taking cover, moving from side to side) with weapons designed to kill large , unagile vehicles would be difficult.

Anti tank weapons are being used in Afghanistan regularly (Javelin) to take out Taliban snipers.

[Schultzhoffen]

I'd agree that Marines fit the German SS comparison. Just as the Imperium basically mirrors many crazy religious/political Totalitarian Regimes (think Communism, 1984 by Orwell, **** Germany, The Spanish Inquisition, etc).

Marines are a shock force. They're a hard-hitting offensive unit meant to cripple enemy HQ, Communications, supply lines, etc. IG hold the ground and engage in 'meat-grinder' type battles. Marines pick their battles. The aim is to strike where the enemy is weak. If you can kill him in his sleep, even better.

Marines can vary tactics according to the situation. They are an elite unit clad in power armour and armed with an array of powerful weapons. They are pretty formidable. Their weakness is low numbers which is why (partially) they need to select their targets carefully. The days of the Legions are long gone (now there must nave been a sight to see!).

Marines are not invulnerable. Show me a troop unit that is. However, they are tough. They are also a great psychological weapon. What is the old saying? 'Power Perceived is Power Achieved'. In other words, the threat of Marines is often enough to frighten rebels into compliance (I'm obviously speaking of ordinary men, here).

Fluff-wise and gaming-wise, I'd suggest that the basic Tac Marine is better than any other basic troop choice of any other army (I'm not counting Chaos Cult units - Plague Marines are the best troop unit in the Universe, bar none. Plague Marines reek of win).

From an intellectual point of view I hate the fascist swine but, by God, from an emotional point of view, I love those power-armoured *******s!

[Sitnam]

And yet they still are a fair amount smaller then even a Rhino. Anti-Tank weapons are designed to destroy vehicles. Trying to destroy even a large man-sized, that can move with much more agility (Taking cover, moving from side to side) with weapons designed to kill large , unagile vehicles would be difficult.

Anti tank weapons are being used in Afghanistan regularly (Javelin) to take out Taliban snipers.

Source? I highly doubt those snipers are doing anything besides sitting still. If US backed forces were regularly scoring direct hits on running infantrymen, that would have some credence to the conversation. But snipers sit still, firing shots from long distance. I find it highly believable that Javelins, which don't need to score direct shots to kill unarmored Taliban, can them out while sitting still. But its highly unlikely that they would be able to hit Taliban directly while they were running around, shooting, taking cover. They could kill some due to shrapnel, which is probably how the majority of the infantry kills are done with AT weapons anyway. But a marine needs a direct hit to kill with a standard AT weapon. And while their bulk may make it a bit easier, they are faster and more battle hardened then ANY modern day warrior.

[Nabterayl]

I don't disagree with the unconventional warfare and total warfare points that M2C makes, but I do have to throw my hat in with Mel on the "one marine is not an army eraser" point. If we're agreed that we have to take BL titles with a grain of salt, what are we left with? Remember the first Raptors drop on Taros? Three assault marines put out of action by a single Hydra turret. Those men weren't killed - it's probably safe to assume they lived to fight another day - but they were wounded seriously enough to be casualties for purposes of the rest of the drop.

One Hydra turret.

And then there's the defeat of Second Company of the Avenging Sons by a single hunter cadre during the attack on the governor's mansion, at the start of the Taros incident. The death of Sergeant Culln's assault squad in the breach of the curtain wall on Vraks, five assault marines against a mere several hundred traitor guardsmen.

Space marines are superhuman killing machines with the skills and (in many ways, at least) the mentality of extremely veteran special forces. But that's all they are. They aren't "one man armies" except in the sense that any special forces operator is a "one man army" (which in many ways, of course, a special forces operator is). If a space marine could really take on hundred-to-one odds, Culln's squad would have survived the assault on the breach. It is completely and utterly remarkable that any man survived that engagement, yes, and I think it's a given that no other Imperial forces could have done so with only five men. But four of the five still died to nothing more than several hundred guardsmen.

What makes space marines work, in my opinion, is not so much their power armor, physiology, and weaponry as it is their mobility. Drop pods and Thunderhawk transporters are a big deal. The former gives a marine commander the capability to drop troops wherever he wants, essentially heedless of surface to air defenses - as long as the mothership can face the surface-to-orbit defenses, the pods can drop. Thunderhawk transporters allow a marine commander to deploy and redeploy his entire armored contingent by air - and even on the ground, his AFVs are the fastest in the Imperium, for their firepower.

These are the advantages I see that space marines have compared to other Imperial forces. Individual space marines may be scary, but not scary enough that they can afford not to fight smart. Have a space marine charge an autocannon position and there's a decent chance he'll get put out of the fight, as the Raptors demonstrate. Charge even regular humans at hundred-to-one odds and even space marines lose, as the Red Scorpions demonstrate. Pit them against a mechanized foe and things get even grimmer, as space marine AFVs are really just fast and heavily armed for their speed. A Predator does not outclass a Leman Russ the way power armor outclasses flak armor, or even the way a boltgun outclasses a lasgun.

Drop pods and Thunderhawks, though, allow space marines to fight smart. They allow the marines to outmaneuver the targets they can't kill (which, in a campaign of any size, will be many), and knock out the targets they can (which, in all fairness, are also many; I'm not suggesting marines are pansies). But once the advantage of speed is lost, things start getting hairy. Space marine lore is full of marines making glorious last stands against hordes of foes, but they tend to be just that - last stands. Astonishing feats of arms, yes. Tribute to the general badassery of the Adeptus Astartes, yes. But also an admonition that a space marine who wants to live to fight another day strikes when he is not expected, hits his target fast enough that it cannot be reinforced, and then exfiltrates.

Which is awesome. And cool. And also the same thing as saying they strike when they are not expected, hits his target fast enough that it cannot be reinforced, and then runs the hell away. Because marines who are brought to conventional engagements fight well, kill lots of the enemy, and have a tendency to die.

[Aldramelech]

Source? I highly doubt those snipers are doing anything besides sitting still. If US backed forces were regularly scoring direct hits on running infantrymen, that would have some credence to the conversation. But snipers sit still, firing shots from long distance. I find it highly believable that Javelins, which don't need to score direct shots to kill unarmored Taliban, can them out while sitting still. But its highly unlikely that they would be able to hit Taliban directly while they were running around, shooting, taking cover. They could kill some due to shrapnel, which is probably how the majority of the infantry kills are done with AT weapons anyway. But a marine needs a direct hit to kill with a standard AT weapon. And while their bulk may make it a bit easier, they are faster and more battle hardened then ANY modern day warrior.

I will not discuss my "Source's" or knowledge of this practice.

However a simple search of the internet gives you ample evidence:

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/2587313/Bang-on-target.html

Note that in the article, it states the Taliban have started calling it "The Missile that chases us". Ive not heard that but it sounds plausible.

I will say (and this is information in the public domain) that you can move about as much as you like, Javelin is a smart "Fire and Forget" system. Once you have locked on to the targets heat source the missile tracks that target automatically, there is no escape. This includes enemy personnel. The weapon also has a selectable top attack mode, so you can bring in the shot straight down, no hiding behind walls either.

AT weapons such as Javelin don't create shrapnel, they kill by blast overpressure.

The only problem with this practice is justifying using a £70,000 missile to kill a couple of blokes.

[Denzark]

Amusing 'mass-debate' for a Sunday.

A few points.

1. SS yes were generally better equipped (but not trained better - probably just harsher) but what made them tough opponents was Esprit de Corps - they would fight until the bitter end (probably because they knew they were for the chop if taken prisoner). Marines aren't suicide troops in the way the SS were from time to time - I would say quite appropriately the SS are more IG storm trooper like - Maybe marine scouts are Skorzeny's chaps?

2. Melly you care enough to keep responding - you have a lot of teen angst at the mo just let go.

3. Sitnam if you are not happy with Mr A's open source I can back it up - I won't talk sources either suffice to say HM pays my wages and sends me to sandy places with alarming regularity.

4. I think its what has been alluded to. That good ole North Vietnamese tactic of 'grab them by their belts'. Marines are designed to get in close, where their armour and physiology win every time. At 3 miles a Guard Division would shred a battle company. When that company drops in 100 metres away and thunderhawk transports bring in the land raiders, and the terminators borrowed from the first are already shredding Div HQ after a bit of quality teleporting, I would see 100 marines doing a Div (6000ish?) of guard easy.

[Aldramelech]

Amusing 'mass-debate' for a Sunday.

A few points.

1. SS yes were generally better equipped (but not trained better - probably just harsher) but what made them tough opponents was Esprit de Corps - they would fight until the bitter end (probably because they knew they were for the chop if taken prisoner). Marines aren't suicide troops in the way the SS were from time to time - I would say quite appropriately the SS are more IG storm trooper like - Maybe marine scouts are Skorzeny's chaps?

2. Melly you care enough to keep responding - you have a lot of teen angst at the mo just let go.

3. Sitnam if you are not happy with Mr A's open source I can back it up - I won't talk sources either suffice to say HM pays my wages and sends me to sandy places with alarming regularity.

4. I think its what has been alluded to. That good ole North Vietnamese tactic of 'grab them by their belts'. Marines are designed to get in close, where their armour and physiology win every time. At 3 miles a Guard Division would shred a battle company. When that company drops in 100 metres away and thunderhawk transports bring in the land raiders, and the terminators borrowed from the first are already shredding Div HQ after a bit of quality teleporting, I would see 100 marines doing a Div (6000ish?) of guard easy.

But just think of all those bargins to be had at the Jingly Market! lol :p

[Denzark]

Never seem to find poorly painted guard tanks with the regualrity I do at Car boots though!:D

[Melissia]

I think Nabterayl has a good idea on how Marines work at their best.


you have a lot of teen angstDon't be a moron.

[Denzark]

I think Nabterayl has a good idea on how Marines work at their best.

Don't be a moron.

Madam your succinct and clear use of wit, irony and top notch cutting sarcasm wounds me. I had forgotten quite how creatively evil and hurtful teenage girls can be.

[Aldramelech]

Some say that she lives in a tree, and that her sweat can be used to clean precious metals... all we know is, she's called Melissia!

[Denzark]

Some say that she lives in a tree, and that her sweat can be used to clean precious metals... all we know is, she's called Melissia!

JC's probably wasted here fella.

[Melissia]

Some say that she lives in a tree, and that her sweat can be used to clean precious metals... all we know is, she's called Melissia!Of course not, that would make me a hippy. We all know that the tears and sweat of hippies have miraculous applications, which is why we have hippy torture factories.

[Aldramelech]

Of course not, that would make me a hippy. We all know that the tears and sweat of hippies have miraculous applications, which is why we have hippy torture factories.

Ok how about - Some say if you tune your radio to 88.4 FM you can actually hear her thoughts and she has no understanding of clouds, all we know is, she's called Melissia!



JC's probably wasted here fella.

I see my duty is to educate and inform! lol :p

[Melissia]

Clouds? Excuse me, are you a hippy?

*prepares torture rack*

[Aldramelech]

I'll start a thread. Check out The Oubliette

[Marshal2Crusaders]

For the record the 'army eraser' remark was tongue in cheek. Obviously a single marine cannot wipe out a battalion, he will run out of ammo eventually, he is however, an efficient casualty producing weapon capable of besting many men single handedly.

[Sitnam]

I will not discuss my "Source's" or knowledge of this practice.

However a simple search of the internet gives you ample evidence:

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/2587313/Bang-on-target.html

Note that in the article, it states the Taliban have started calling it "The Missile that chases us". Ive not heard that but it sounds plausible.

I will say (and this is information in the public domain) that you can move about as much as you like, Javelin is a smart "Fire and Forget" system. Once you have locked on to the targets heat source the missile tracks that target automatically, there is no escape. This includes enemy personnel. The weapon also has a selectable top attack mode, so you can bring in the shot straight down, no hiding behind walls either.

AT weapons such as Javelin don't create shrapnel, they kill by blast overpressure.

The only problem with this practice is justifying using a £70,000 missile to kill a couple of blokes.

I actually did search after I read your post and it did confirm that they did hit long range human size targets. I'll concede that point that you can kill infantry with AT weapons, as that has been done for a long time. However, those type of weapons would likely need direct hits on Astartes to even damage them, and thats what makes targeting Astartes difficult.. If we go by game stats, Astartes can shrug off everything below the power of Krak Missiles and plasma weaponry. I'd assume Imperial Krak Missiles would be more capable then modern ones (Let's just assume 40,000 years they can make missiles better.) Javelins have a minimum range in which they can target (http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/antiarmor/Javelin.html (as shown herel)), and as has been discussed a smart Astartes commander is not going to get in a long-range fight with a Guard force. They will drop in using drop pods and thunderhawks, right in the middile of the enemy force. I can concede that in long range engagements, long range ATGM are capable of taking out Astartes. In the game they are able to, I don't see any reason why they couldn't in real life. But I feel they would need direct hits to kill a Space Marine, going off of game stats. Do you feel such weapons can score direct hits consistently to kill marines?

I feel Astartes are capable of many things on the battlefield, but their first use is as a surgical strike force. The ability to drop out of the sky, take out a Orbital Defense laser, enemy headquarter. Such actions allow them to strike within the range of weapons that can cause them problems, such as artillery and long-range AT weapons (Meltaguns are still fair game, but it'd take alot of bravery to get close to Astartes). They also seem to operate well when assisting another Imperial force. One instance would be the assault on the Vraks wall breach, or during the armored offensive the Raptors committed to during Taros. Space Marines provide the elite, armored, and experienced troops that can exponentially assist a Guard offensive. The Guard provide the artillery, manpower, and mechanized forces to assist the Astartes. The Guard dooesn't need Astartes for such actions, but it helps. However, the mariens do need Guard for such actions.

[Aldramelech]

Ive seen a guy draw a chalk X on a T55 and hit that X with a practice round.

[Sitnam]

Ive seen a guy draw a chalk X on a T55 and hit that X with a practice round.

Sitting still X or moving X? I don't doubt the accuracy of such weapons, only their ability to take into account that the marine will likely be moving around cover. And that it'll likely be at a short engagement distance if those Astartes operate as per the Codex Astartes.

[Aldramelech]

You couldn't do it at less then 150 meters, and Javelin was designed with a very short min engagement range. Most comparable systems have min ranges double or even triple that.

[Sitnam]

You couldn't do it at less then 150 meters, and Javelin was designed with a very short min engagement range. Most comparable systems have min ranges double or even triple that.

Hmm. I wonder if Imperial missile launchers have a comparable targeting range. Has their ever been any design stats set down by GW?

[Nabterayl]

I've been trying to rack my brains for definitive instances of point-blank krak missile kills, but I can't think of any. I'm also not aware of any sources discussing minimum engagement range or arming time.

As for killing Astartes with krak missiles, I don't know if it can be done consistently, but we know that it has been done. One of Culln's squadmates died to a direct hit from a krak missile during the breach of the Vraks curtain wall (blown in half). That means that not only can it be done, but that five assault marines are sufficiently scary that somebody decided to try, even though several companies of traitor guardsmen were on the scene.

[Melissia]

Sufficiently scary, or just another armored target to fire it at?

[Nabterayl]

I don't think they're different for present purposes. Absent a statement by Kinrade that the gunner in question was actually frightened, we don't have any way of reconstructing his psychology. All I meant was that the space marine was considered worth expending a krak missile on, and it was possible to score a direct hit (at night, no less).

[Sangre]

I never thought it was in question that the sole role of the Astartes is shock and awe. The idea is that if you're a Space Marine and you're being shot at, your commander has failed, because he should be telling you to eat somebody's head.

[DarkLink]

I've been trying to rack my brains for definitive instances of point-blank krak missile kills, but I can't think of any. I'm also not aware of any sources discussing minimum engagement range or arming time.

As for killing Astartes with krak missiles, I don't know if it can be done consistently, but we know that it has been done. One of Culln's squadmates died to a direct hit from a krak missile during the breach of the Vraks curtain wall (blown in half). That means that not only can it be done, but that five assault marines are sufficiently scary that somebody decided to try, even though several companies of traitor guardsmen were on the scene.

Generally speaking, it's not a very good idea to shoot a target only a few meters away with an anti-tank weapon.

In fact, most grenade launchers and missiles have a safety that prevents them from exploding at such short ranges. An M203 40mm grenade only arms itself after about 30m of flight.

So if those Astartes get in close range, and the only weapons that you have that have a real chance of punching through the armor is AT weapons, you're kinda in trouble.

Whereas if the Astartes gets caught out in the open at a few hundred yards, one guy with a guided missile launcher can take him out.

[Aldramelech]

Early on in The Founding one of the "Ghosts" turns into a demon and he is dispatched with a "rocket" at point blank range.

[Pi666]

Anyone saying the marines are not that badass is realising they're talking about using anti TANK weapons against a GUY?

Anyone played CoD: Modern Warfare? Imagine you play a marine in there. Anyone watched Saving Private Ryan? Imagine sending 100 marines instead of thousand soldiers. (I know probably Marines would be dropped near the germand command bunker and behead the german army...)

Of course they can fall under anti tank weaponry but they excel in combat against infantry, cause most of them (enemy infantry) use to have antiinfantry weapons, which are like mosquitoes to a marine (in the fluff of course). Even in game terms, Astartes are "inmune" against some AT weapons (like krak grenades or autocannons), but maybe the badassery in fluff is a little bit over the "reality".Remember Brother Bethor? Yep, the ONE guy who survived the genestealer's nest?

[Melissia]

Anyone saying the marines are not that badass is realising they're talking about using anti TANK weapons against a GUY?
1: Marines are not human, therefor they are not "a guy".
2: Marines wear power armor, which requires armor penetrating weapons to take down easily (although Marines CAN be taken down with a lucky lasgun shot anyway)
3: I make the assumption that he was just another armored target and the AT gunner didn't have something more threatening to shoot at (IE, a predator tank).

[Pi666]

Actually they're super-human, or enhanced humans, so they're humans, but I used guy for "infantryman".

[Melissia]

They're no more human than a mutant, and most people in 40K would say a mutant isn't human. Their genetic code is altered by their gene-seed and chemical treatments to become something other than human-- therefor they are not human. That's still beside my point, however.

[Pi666]

Then the point is the power armour? Inquisitors wear power armours, dark eldar Incubi wear "power armour" and so on.

And I don't think an AT gunner would waste his ammo against anything not tank in middle of a battle, 'cause the tank would come later and you'll need that precious ammo you wasted in taking down one marine.

[DarkLink]

2: Marines wear power armor, which requires armor penetrating weapons to take down easily (although Marines CAN be taken down with a lucky lasgun shot anyway)


This makes for an entertaining mental image of someone shooting a Terminator at point blank range with a missile, killing himself in the explosion and failing to damage the Terminator armor.

[Duke]

They're no more human than a mutant, and most people in 40K would say a mutant isn't human. Their genetic code is altered by their gene-seed and chemical treatments to become something other than human-- therefor they are not human. That's still beside my point, however.

for kicks I am going to extend that logic...

Based on your logic, the Emperor is also not humand and thus you worship either 1. a Mutant or 2. a Xenos... Either way the sisters of battle should be burned as heretics by either 1. Themselves or 2. The Deathwatch.

So, would you like to light the pyre or should the Deathwatch? ;)

Duke

[Melissia]

By that definition so should everyone else in the Imperium be burned, including many Space Marines for revering Him such. But indeed, I would agree and argue that the Emperor was (and is) indeed a mutant-- in this case, the mutation is a legal one, as the Emperor is a Psyker. But unlike most humans, the Emperor had total control over His powers; this is why Psykers are so regulated.

[Sangre]

They're no more human than a mutant, and most people in 40K would say a mutant isn't human. Their genetic code is altered by their gene-seed and chemical treatments to become something other than human-- therefor they are not human. That's still beside my point, however.

You're so sour I'm contemplating eating a whole, raw lemon, just to get some sweetness in my mouth.

[Duke]

Why, all the sudden, do I feel like a Preist of Baal?

Duke

[Nabterayl]

It's hardly a secret that space marines are considered abhuman by some, and everybody considers librarians to be mutants, as are all psykers. Nor is it a secret that the Imperium's insistence on rooting out genetic deviance is a fool's errand in a gene pool as large as the Imperium, and ultimately would be the doom of mankind if carried out to its logical conclusion.

As for marines being "not that badass," nobody's saying that. Marines are absolutely badass. What we're saying is that you don't have to be able to kill a hundred men with your bare hands before you qualify as really, really badass. Nor do I mean to imply that the Astartes' preference for hit-and-run tactics makes them cowards, or somehow weak. The SAS have a preference for hit-and-run tactics, and I wouldn't dream of calling those men cowards, or weak.

It's easy to look at facts such as that Astartes can be stopped in their tracks by autocannon fire, or that an entire chapter can't even muster fifty tanks, or the design specs of those tanks, or their pitiful artillery assets, and laugh about how "weak" space marines are in conventional warfare. It's a lot harder to laugh about it when your can't fight a conventional war against them because every time you deploy forces below strength X they're pounced on by drop pods that can penetrate your anti-air defenses and tanks that are flown in out of the sky, who them zoom away from your response force in their damnably speedy little tin cans or fly off in their Thunderhawks to do it again. As "weak" as such a force might be in conventional combat, it's not hard to see how they would quickly become an object of terror.

[Melissia]

Right. I'm not saying Marines aren't badass, I just stated that I don't find them to be as badass as they could be because of GW's often piss-poor quality (as a collective, with several notable exceptions) writing. Also the fact that they don't have to overcome fear makes them less badass, as bravery is "[...] the ability to confront fear, pain, risk/danger, uncertainty, or intimidation" and overcome it-- and therefor those whom do not know fear are not as brave as those who do.

[Duke]

Here is the thing. If I send in a bunch of men to take out an objective and they do it with ruthless efficency then I could care less about whether or not they are "Brave,"

Duke

[Melissia]

Here is the thing. If I send in a bunch of men to take out an objective and they do it with ruthless efficency then I could care less about whether or not they are "Brave,"

Duke

Good for you I guess? That they are a capable military force doesn't make them badass, however, so...

[Nabterayl]

Well, "badass" is a term of admiration. It's personal. I think a lot more of us are likely to agree that bravery is acting despite fear than we are to agree on a mutual definition of "badass."

For instance, I find space marines badass. The aesthetic of the space knight special forces operator in power armor sets off my "zomg, so awesum" reaction. This despite the fact that I agree with you that space marines are not "brave" (I don't think they're cowards, either; I don't think bravery and cowardice are really the right way to think about space marine psychology).

However, I don't find marines admirable. There really isn't any part of space marine lore that makes me go, "Man, that stands for something I want to stand for," or even "Man, that stands for something I would want in my friends."

So for me, a space marine's bravery (or lack thereof) has nothing to do with his badassness. I find space marines totally badass, I don't find them admirable, and I certainly don't think of a space marine chapter as an "army" (except in the sociopolitical sense).

Lots of room for personal differences on the question of "badass."

[DarkLink]

Well, "badass" is a term of admiration. It's personal. I think a lot more of us are likely to agree that bravery is acting despite fear than we are to agree on a mutual definition of "badass."

For instance, I find space marines badass. The aesthetic of the space knight special forces operator in power armor sets off my "zomg, so awesum" reaction. This despite the fact that I agree with you that space marines are not "brave" (I don't think they're cowards, either; I don't think bravery and cowardice are really the right way to think about space marine psychology).

However, I don't find marines admirable. There really isn't any part of space marine lore that makes me go, "Man, that stands for something I want to stand for," or even "Man, that stands for something I would want in my friends."

So for me, a space marine's bravery (or lack thereof) has nothing to do with his badassness. I find space marines totally badass, I don't find them admirable, and I certainly don't think of a space marine chapter as an "army" (except in the sociopolitical sense).

Lots of room for personal differences on the question of "badass."

Pretty much the whole point behind the Grey Knights is the following thought:

"How can we make even more bad@$$ Space Marines? I know, let's make them Jedi Space Marines!"

And I have to agree with Melissia on the quality of GW writing. It's rather hit or miss. And compared to the quality of some other books I've read, GW's stuff falls into the category of "casual entertainment", rather than "that was one of the best books I've ever read" category.

[Duke]

LOL "...Jedi Space marines" Nice!

The whole reason I don't think that Marines are admirable is more the general situation of the whole universe in 40k. I also don't think anything int the entire Imperium is all that admirable either (though I should probably avoid such a sweeping statement.) The galaxy as a whole is a choice of 'lesser evils.'

As far as the writing goes I have to agree 100% that the writing is hot or cold. Even the Heresy Novels, which started red hot (for me) have began to cool somewhat.

Duke

[Nabterayl]

I don't find any single force entirely admirable, but there are parts of most forces that I find admirable, or at least sympathetic (e.g., I don't admire necrons, but I do feel sorry for the necrontyr). I admire an ork's indefatigable cheerfulness, for instance. I also admire the willingness of an Imperial Guardsman, a commissar, and to a lesser extent, a Sororitas, to front up and earn it despite the superiority of their foes.

The closest I come to admiring a trait that the Astartes have is their dogmatic devotion to solving problems by breaking things. Faced with a Chaos threat that his forces are insufficient to defeat, and an eldar strike force willing to help him, your typical space marine will not ally with the eldar in order to defeat the greater foe. He'll smash both forces, or die trying.

There is a certain implacability to that mindset that is ... attractive, if not clearly admirable, to me. But it's also a trait that the Sororitas share with the Astartes.

[Duke]

Would you say that Astartes have Chilvary? I suppose it could be argued either way. I would venture (on the surface) to say that they do... Especially in that they consider the only true test of their strength to be against others of the class.

Duke

[Nabterayl]

I think it depends on what period's and what class' version of "chivalry" you mean. Certainly they don't have "chivalry" in the late medieval or ecclesiastical senses of courtly love or Christian duty to their fellow men, not even the more "secular" versions of Christian duty such as simple largesse. A space marine may drop in to save your PDF from being overwhelmed by xenos terrors but he sure isn't going to throw you a feast afterward, or leave behind some power armor so you're better prepared next time :p

In the older and more knightly senses of prowess in battle and fealty to one's lord, though, absolutely. In fact, I think space marine battlefield behavior doesn't make sense unless you remember that they are essentially knights, riding out to "do chivalry" in the oldest senses of the word. Remember, "One more day for Miral! One more day for Rogal Dorn!"?

From a soldier's point of view, space marines deliberately handicap themselves on the battlefield. Most of them disdain camouflage, which is silly. They also disdain artillery, which is also silly (IA2 makes it clear that, while the space marines don't have artillery in their armory to not use, most space marine commanders also disdain the use of artillery for anything but a short preparatory bombardment, which is why they're content with Whirlwind launchers, Thunderhawk strikes, and orbital bombardment). From a knightly point of view, those are sources of strength.

Also chivalric is a space marine's disdain for outside authority. In theory a space marine owes his fealty to the Emperor first and his chapter second. While that is true for some marines, for others the reality is that they owe their fealty to their chapter first and the Emperor second, as evidenced by the willingness of some marines to disregard bearers of the Inquisitorial Mandate in favor of the interests of their chapter.

So ... depending on what you mean by "chivalry," yes, I absolutely think that space marines have "chivalry." In fact, while they operate like commandos, I think it's a mistake to attribute to them the mindset of commandos (or, for that matter, soldiers). Operationally they may be special forces, but psychologically they're knights.

[Old_Paladin]

I think that the Astartes is too broad to ever just pigeon-hole an attitude towards them. At best you can say that there is tendencies.


For example:
There are several chapters/legions that specialize in seige work; both attack and prolonged defence. So they aren't always a lightning strike force.

Some are very honour bound/Chivalrous (although this differs on the term 'honour'; Wolves vs. Ultras) and some are not; such as the Night Lords or Flesh Tearers.

I wish I could remember the name of the chapter, but it is one that are specialist in armoured attacks; where the majority of the 2-5 company tactical marines are tank crews.

[Nabterayl]

That's fair; I certainly didn't mean to imply that all Astartes fit that pattern - just that it's typical for them.

The "siege" chapters, such as the Imperial Fists, are a matter of great curiosity to me. How exactly do you lay siege to anything larger than a single network of redoubts with, say, a two-company strike force and no bunker-busting long-range artillery except when your space ship's orbit takes it overhead? Those chapters' equipment isn't radically different than any other chapter's, and the Astartes armory (even including rare variants such as the Land Raider Helios) just isn't suited to static blockades. So how do they work? Mobile interdiction of supplies? Or are they "siege specialists" in the sense that they have the expertise to direct a siege, but not the men and materiel, and routinely work with the Imperial Guard in their "siege specialist" capacity?

I know the answer is probably "We don't know, except for the Horus Heresy, when things were radically different, so that hardly counts," but I'd be curious to see a GW author thoughtfully tackle the question.

[Melissia]

Actually yes, I can very easily state that all Astartes elements are bad for prolonged defense in ocmparison to the Guard. And I do. There might be chapters that specialize in it, but they still won't be as good as an equivalent Guard force.

[DarkLink]

The closest I come to admiring a trait that the Astartes have is their dogmatic devotion to solving problems by breaking things. Faced with a Chaos threat that his forces are insufficient to defeat, and an eldar strike force willing to help him, your typical space marine will not ally with the eldar in order to defeat the greater foe. He'll smash both forces, or die trying.

There is a certain implacability to that mindset that is ... attractive, if not clearly admirable, to me. But it's also a trait that the Sororitas share with the Astartes.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3277/2635489768_9e0f06d3bc.jpg

The "siege specialist" chapters are kinda unique. Space Marines don't have the numbers to hold lots of area, nor to take lots of bunkers all at the same time. However, they can concentrate their forces at key points.

Need to hold a bridge to block a chaos assault? Put a company of Marines on it, and nothing's gonna get through. Need to smash the gates of a really big wall? Send a strike force of Marines.

I think the siege chapters don't so much hold the whole line, as simply act as the hammer and/or cornerstone of a larger force.

[Old_Paladin]

Nab, I wasn't dirrecting anything towards you personally; just making a general comment towards the nature of the whole thread.

I personally think the idea of space marines in seige assault is rather odd; and GW only drops hints about how its done. The number one thing is that they try to never have prolonged seiges (even though they'll also talk about decade long seiges, which is counter-intuitive). They also pack things that are never seen on the table-top, whirlwind rockets with much greater range and power; special engineer corps with better training and experience using melta-bombs/breeching charges that are uses to undermine a section of fortress wall then blow it apart. Storm squads that are specially trained to fight breeching actions.

@ Mel:
I don't see why you would just say that out of hand. I think that at best both are equal (in different ways). For seige defence, Marines need less equipment to be effective. They don't need food or rest. You cannot starve them out, or wait for them to get tired or sick. You cannot use disease or gas attacks against them. They won't panic, their moral won't decrease or break over time. They are much tougher then a normal human; they won't go down to a stray shot. If you blow off an arm, it clots and they switch hands. They can see in the dark. I'd personally rather fight an ordinary man at the top of a wall then a giant with superhuman strength that had brutal weapons (chainsaw swords!) and knows dozens of combat styles.
Durning a breech in street to street fighting, I'm going to say marines are harder to fight then humans. And predators and vindicators are pretty similar to a leman russ.
The guard have strenth of numbers, which allows them to cover more area (and they're just easier to use, no one cares if a lot of them die).
Are guard better for planetary defence? Yes. Are Marines superior at holding a single vital strongpoint? You better believe it!

@DarkLink:
nail... head... you hit it.

[Nabterayl]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3277/2635489768_9e0f06d3bc.jpg

I think the siege chapters don't so much hold the whole line, as simply act as the hammer and/or cornerstone of a larger force.

That I can well believe; that we've certainly seen post-Heresy marines do. Also, that picture made my day.


They also pack things that are never seen on the table-top, whirlwind rockets with much greater range and power; special engineer corps with better training and experience using melta-bombs/breeching charges that are uses to undermine a section of fortress wall then blow it apart. Storm squads that are specially trained to fight breeching actions.
Do you have a source for that? IA2 specifically calls out the Whirlwind as lacking the punch necessary for real bombardment.



I don't see why you would just say that out of hand. I think that at best both are equal (in different ways). For seige defence, Marines need less equipment to be effective. They don't need food or rest. You cannot starve them out, or wait for them to get tired or sick. You cannot use disease or gas attacks against them. They won't panic, their moral won't decrease or break over time. They are much tougher then a normal human; they won't go down to a stray shot. If you blow off an arm, it clots and they switch hands. They can see in the dark. I'd personally rather fight an ordinary man at the top of a wall then a giant with superhuman strength that had brutal weapons (chainsaw swords!) and knows dozens of combat styles.
Durning a breech in street to street fighting, I'm going to say marines are harder to fight then humans. And predators and vindicators are pretty similar to a leman russ.
The guard have strenth of numbers, which allows them to cover more area (and they're just easier to use, no one cares if a lot of them die).
Are guard better for planetary defence? Yes. Are Marines superior at holding a single vital strongpoint? You better believe it!
I think Mel's point was that marines have trouble in a prolonged defense, and I think she has a point there. Yes, marine physiology does give them some very serious advantages in a defensive situation, and some of those are going to tell in a prolonged scenario as well. By "prolonged" I think we're talking a month and up, roughly - certainly long enough that the marines would have to eat. They do have to eat, after all, even if not all of them (depending on gene seed) have to sleep. And they are susceptible to chemical and biological agents, the agents just need to be much more virulent than they would for a normal human.

When we're discussing a "prolonged" defense, I think we need to specify some more variables. Prolonged defense cut off from supply? I'm not sure the marines' ammunition would last long enough for their other advantages (such as morale) to tell. Yes, Guardsmen need sleep, and can rout, but if you're really desperate, all you need to recharge a lasgun is a flint, tinder, and something to burn. You can't manufacture bolt shells out of dried twigs. If the marines have had the time to move supplies to the ground, and have actually done so, that's another matter. If you put a company of marines at a bridgehead and say, "Defend this position for the next six months" and leave, they're all going to die after about the third or fourth serious attack. If you put a company of marines at a bridgehead with six months' worth of supplies and say, "Defend this position for the next six months," well, then, ok :p

Prolonged defense of a fixed position? Depends on what the attacking disposition looks like. When defending a fixed position against an enemy that's prepared to do something more creative than charge the marines' position, marines essentially have to counter-attack (otherwise it's just a question of whether the marines have enough ammunition). If the attacking disposition is such that counter-attacks are tantamount to attacking a fortified position to begin with, or if the attacking force is sufficiently combined-arms, I might take the Guard again. "Defend this bridgehead for the next six months against a serious combined arms traitor army" is kind of problematic. The speed of marine armor means a lot less when you have to defend a fixed position, and the lack of artillery becomes more problematic as well. The less you can move, the more important it is to have big guns and serious armor, and marines don't have either. Their man-portable stuff is great, but all the multi-meltas, lascannons, and plasma cannons in the world won't deter a Basilisk barrage or run off a squadron of Hell Talons (yes, marines have good AA technology in their Whirlwind Hyperioses, but for whatever bizarre reason those are much, much less common than AA in the Guard). A squad's worth of Predators make a reasonable Basilisk deterrent (especially if your Thunderhawks can operate), but what if you need those against the Leman Russ squadrons staring at you across the bridge?

On the other hand, if you just say, "Neutralize this enemy formation as an offensive force," I agree that marines can be great, even over the long term. The Ultramarines have essentially been "defending" against Charadon forever, space marine style - by attacking the enemy through a series of commando raids.

[Melissia]

Marines do need more equipent to be effective, actually. Their weapons, for example, do not have rechargeable ammunition. They WILL run out of ammunition in an prolonged siege defense. Marine equipment requires more maintenance and is less rugged and durable, while Guard equipment is meant to be able to be maintained by any soldier in any condition.

Marines do need food and rest. Just less often, and they have equpment to recycle their waste into more food (But then the Guard always has plenty of soylens viridians, not like anyone really wants to steal it...) and so they give the appearance of not needing it. But they still do. THey cannot be easily starved out, but the same could be said of a properly prepared Guard force as well.

You can use biological and chemical attacks on Marines; there are certainly enough game instances where such attacks can indeed work on Astartes, they just work better on those with respiratory system protection-- similar protection that IG siege regiments have in the form of gas masks and longcoats where they do not have any skin uncovered.

Their morale is their biggest advantage, yes.

Marines are tougher than humans, but nowhere near as tough as some beings such as Orks or Necrons-- if they get a bullet to the head, they've got about as good a chance to survive as any human (humans HAVE survived bullets to the head mind you).

Humans have technology to see in the dark, humans also use chainswords and numerous fighting styles. Indeed, several humans are actually much more skilled than the majority of Astartes are-- admittedly, these are the exceptions to the rule, but the point is that the Astartes skill superiority is an important factor, but not overwhelmingly so, especially in a long siege.

Predators and Vindicators are dramatically inferior to a Leman Russ if either of htem meet face to face in an urban location where they cannot maneuver around eachother. The primary advantage of a Predator or Vindicator is speed, while the primary advantages of a Leman Russ are firepower and armor-- the Leman Russ has superior armor and firepower over every rhino-based chassis with the exception of the ultrarare Land Raiders.

Finally, in a war of attrition, Marines lose. Each Marine that goes down hits them hard, and is a massive loss. The same cannot be said of each Guardsmen or even each squad.

I'm not saying that Marines aren't capable. Really, all that I'm saying is that the Guard are 10/10 while Marines are 9/10.

[Nabterayl]

You know, as long as we're discussing urban operations, I feel it's only fair to point out that Astartes do have advantages that the Guard doesn't in an urban environment, due to their infantry. The speed of an armored column in an urban environment, after all, is not really limited by the maximum speed of the vehicles. It's limited by the speed with which its infantry support can do its job. In a room-by-room fight, space marines' advantages are maximized, and even sources that aren't trying to make the Astartes into superultramegazomgbuybuybuy soldiers point out that marines can clear houses in room-to-room fighting very quickly. So a marine armored column in an urban setting should be able to make better time than an equivalent Guard column, which in turn makes it harder to intercept.

That's not really a defensive scenario, though, so much as an urban one. The ability to maneuver quickly through hostile streets might be relevant when defending an urban environment, and it might not. Similarly, it might be relevant when attacking an urban environment, and it might not.

[Old_Paladin]

In regards to urban armour; and space marines on the defensive. They will excel in 'smuck-and-duck' tactics.
A hull-down predator with triple-las will smash apart any armour coming against it. Them with its speed (and the crews local knowledge) it can move to a new area, and start all over again.

And if you get to say that a huge army of guard can bring enough food to feed itself for a very long time (to be equal to a marines need to eat); then Marines running out of bolter shells and plasma photon cells isn't a problem either, as they should be just as well stocked. Lasguns can recharge (not forever though, they still have a limited lifespan), but it's still just as limited at the front line.

And yes, guard can have chem-coats and gas hoods and night-fight gear. But really, unless they are specialists they won't. And it is a lot more gear to haul around; so once again, if your guardsmen get 50,000 gas hoods and infra-red spotters, my marines get the extra 8 tonnes of bolter shells.

I know marines need food, but they can eat drywall if they need to, drywall!. They don't need anywhere near the same food supplies as a guard army.

Also, I'm thinking about this a lot more from a fluff point of view. I know all the in-game poisons that hurt marines (and guard get a 3+ cover save in a bunker). But there are much less fluffy poisons that are common. Then there are other little things, like a marine can spit acid at you (unless they are Imperial Fists).

[Melissia]

Guard rations are capable of feeding a human being for an entire day of fighting, and they're small enough to have enough rations easily to feed a dozen people for several months in a single locker. Bolter shells, however, are huge, as are their clips.


And yes, guard can have chem-coats and gas hoods and night-fight gear. But really, unless they are specialists they won't.

Actually it is considered standard equipment for most Guard regiments. Not all of them have it, but most would. The standard Guardsman pack also includes lasgun and six packs of cells, combat knife which can also function as a bayonet or utility knife, an entrenching tool, a mess kit, some sort of hostile weather gear (varying), a backpack, bedroll, compass, the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, a lamp pack (IE flashlight), personal grooming kit (toothbrush, soap, etc, in order to keep clean and healthy), a toolkit for weapons maintenance, etc.

A hull-down Predator still has inferior range to most Guard vehicles, and inferior armor when forced to deal with anti-tank attacks, artillery strikes, and aerial bombardment.

In fluff, there are poisons that will kill ANY living being. Same with diseases. Marines are not completely immune to disease and poison. They never have been. Their body has enhanced defenses, but all defenses can be overcome eventually.

[Old_Paladin]

I will give you the very long term (half a year +) siege time frame.
I think Marines could do it, but at that point it would be... well... pointless. They are more suited to hold and counter, then hold and hold then hold some more. They could have broken the backs of hudreds of enemy forces in the time it took to sit around and deny one.

I think a seige, such as the assault on hades hive. Is where Marines excel. Hold this gate against 100 million orks for 10 days; then after the orks are broken, they counter attack and finish the job.


@Nab: I really cannot recall they type of heavy whirlwind rocket. It was likely older fluff, that is no longer canon. Just like they introduce a new landraider every year, they take things away too.

[Melissia]

That's assuming that the Orks ever do break in the first place. If the Marines are all that are present on the planet, they'd have a hard time breaking them if they were all stuck in one location.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Imperial Fists (and most Successors) ARE expert Siege Troops.

On the Attack: broke open the Ecclesiarchal Palace when it was held by the Sisters (back when they played for the other team ;) ). It wasn't the Guard who carried the day against the second best defended fortress in the Imperium.


On the Defence: I dont know if you have ever heard of a little battle called the Siege of the Imperial Palace, but... it was kind of insane. The Imperial Fists built a fortress and manned it with two other Legions against several full Traitor Legions, commanded by the absolute best commander in the Imperium, plus the Chaos Gods. And the Imperial Fists (plus BA and WS, but even the White Scars didn't man the defenses) won.


Two VERY good examples of the Best Siege Chapter in action. You can cry and whine all you want, but the IF know how to break and take walls, then repair and hold them.

[Melissia]

What exactly are you referring to with the "ecclesiarchy palace"? If you mean the Imperial Palace after Alicia Dominica slew Goge Vandire and then threw open the doors because they turned against him and his forces, I hardly consider that an accomplishment. The Marines did not penetrate the Imperial Palace during that time.

Those were LEGIONS. Not chapters. You do not see hundreds of thousands of Marines in one place anymore. With such numbers, they certainly could do a siege much better than any chapter could ever hope for-- or, for that matter, any other force that I can think of. Those glory days, however, have passed.

You have yet to prove your point, so don't make idiotic comments like "cry all you want".

[Marshal2Crusaders]

What exactly are you referring to with the "ecclesiarchy palace"? If you mean the Imperial Palace after Alicia Dominica slew Goge Vandire and then threw open the doors because they turned against him and his forces, I hardly consider that an accomplishment. The Marines did not penetrate the Imperial Palace during that time.

The Black Templars, led by Captain Navarre. breached the walls and took the fighting inside the palace. Why do you think the Custodes came and got Dominica? Because they just now heard the shelling?


Those were LEGIONS. Not chapters. You do not see hundreds of thousands of Marines in one place anymore. With such numbers, they certainly could do a siege much better than any chapter could ever hope for.

Except the second time when it was 4 Chapters....


You have yet to prove your point, so don't make idiotic comments like "cry all you want".

My point is proven in fluff. How isn't it proven? The Legion was capable of holding anything, it was only when the Iron Warriors handed us our ***** on a Iron Platter did we LOSE a trench-fight. We are the premiere Siege Chapter in the Imperium. We can do it better than anyone. Can we do it alone? Hell No. But if we are the conerstone of the assault or defense my moneys on us over them anyday.

I mean hell, ee are so good at defending we held off the Tyranids. The Tyranids. And made it out alive. A Space Marine Force, not even a Chapter.

[Melissia]

The Black Templars, led by Captain Navarre. breached the walls and took the fighting inside the palace. Why do you think the Custodes came and got Dominica? Because they just now heard the shelling?
Cite your sources. The version I've read from numerous sources state that the Marines did not want to get involved, and only besieged the palace, they did not breach it. As for why the Custodes came out to get Dominica? Because the Emperor ordered him to. Finally, the Brides of the Emperor (As they were known then, although you should not call them that now on pain of death) were not what the Sisters are now. They were certainly not a professional force back then, and were quite small even in comparison to the Marines-- having only come from one single backwater shrineworld at the time.




The Legion was capable of holding anything
A legion is not a chapter. You have yet to prove anything. Guard forces regularly fight off Tyranid invasions and make it out alive, as well. If they did not, then the Imperium would already have fallen, as without the Guard the Imperium is nothing-- the Space Marines cannot even begin to defend it alone.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Cite your sources. The version I've read from numerous sources state that the Marines did not want to get involved, and only besieged the palace, they did not breach it. As for why the Custodes came out to get Dominica? Because the Emperor ordered him to. Finally, the Brides of the Emperor (As they were known then, although you should not call them that now on pain of death) were not what the Sisters are now. They were certainly not a professional force back then, and were quite small even in comparison to the Marines-- having only come from one single backwater shrineworld at the time.


Codex BT 4th ed.


The Terran Crusade.

[Melissia]

Codex BT 4th ed.


The Terran Crusade.
I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere outside that codex despite this being a major point of fluff.

Regardless, my point still stands about the Brides of the Emperor during that siege. They were just Vandire's bodyguards, they were not an actual army at the time, and they weren't even professional soldiers-- they were essentially martial artist nuns, and at the time they were in such a backwater world that they had never heard of rosarius' or refractor shields, which was how Vandire tricked them into his service. Vandire's methods of ruling and leading was described as leading to large scale desertion amongst his forces, and they were extremely demoralized; by the time Alicia Dominica was summoned, his command room was effectively empty as even his officers and aides had deserted him. Once again, nothing to really be proud of.

[Old_Paladin]

I can actually name a siege that shows (story wise) that space marines can withstand a siege unsupported for long periods of time with no assesstance.
The siege of New Rynn City, on Rynn's World.
It was held for 2 years by the remains of the Crimson Fists Chapter against the ork invasion.

Now, I don't know how they did, just that they did.

@Mel: I would say the the Brides where more then a 'bodyguard,' they numbered 10,000 fighters and withstood the assault of 4 Marine Chapters and the Mechanicus. That would be like saying the SS were only hitlers bodyguards, or the PLA was just Mao's bodyguard.
But otherwise, you are right. The chapters didn't breech the Palace; the Brides held it until Vandire was shot.

[Melissia]

If memory serves, didn't they fight from within a fortress that served as their primary base of operations on that world? They'd certainly have enough supplies to last for that long if it's true, although admittedly I haven't read that piece of fluff outside the summary on lexicanum.

[Old_Paladin]

If memory serves, didn't they fight from within a fortress that served as their primary base of operations on that world? They'd certainly have enough supplies to last for that long if it's true, although admittedly I haven't read that piece of fluff outside the summary on lexicanum.

They blew up their own fortress-monestary [morons!]; so where low on supplies. New Rynn City, was just a city; although I believe that the only easy way in was a single underground through-fare through the mountains which made it a great murder point. But is was still a major population center on an Astartes homeworld, so probably had segnificant factory resources.
But again, they don't really explain how it was done. Just that the world was cut off for years, the Fists held the city the whole time, must of the maines died and eventually wiped out the orks when help finally came.
Oh, and now they have a cheesy special character to give them bonus attacks!

[DarkLink]

I believe they did, until a lucky ork shot somehow blew it up. How does a random missle somehow penetrate far enough to actually cause the armory to explode? How stupid was the designer of that fortress? "Hey, let's store enough explosives and ordinance to destroy the ENTIRE FORTRESS behind this thin wall here..."

Then, after that, the Fists punched a hole through ork lines in order to get out of there, since they knew they couldn't hold after taking that many casualties and loosing their main defenses.

On another note, Shrike and his squad spent something like two full years behind enemy lines, raiding for food and supplies and singlehandedly crippling the supply lines and taking out commanders. On their own.

[Melissia]

Indeed, Marines are damned good at guerilla warfare with their superior biology and speed.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

The Templars did breach the wall. Exact word for word quote when I get back from my game.

[Nabterayl]

Going forward, can we distinguish between "siege" and "assault?" I know that Games Workshop frequently doesn't, but Games Workshop doesn't seem to have many fluff writers who write codices who are conscious of military history or military terminology.

For purposes of the present discussion, I think it would be worthwhile to distinguish among the following:
Being a "siege specialist" in the sense of having the expertise to prosecute a siege. Obviously a single general can be a "siege specialist" in this sense, even though a single general cannot hope to besiege anything larger than a bathroom. Similarly, space marines can be "siege specialists" in the sense of having siege expertise.
Being a "siege specialist" in the sense of having the ability to prosecute a siege. By this I mean the ability to blockade an enemy force within a fortified position, reducing the position not through direct engagement but by wearing out its supplies and morale. Obviously this is a scale-sensitive evaluation; a hundred men may be able to besiege a house, but they will not be able to besiege a network of redoubts.
Being an "assault specialist" in the sense of having the expertise to breach a fortified position by direct attack. How to isolate a prepared position is a different body of knowledge from how (and when, and whether) to overcome its defenses.
Being an "assault specialist" in the sense of having the ability to overcome the defenses of a prepared position by direct attack. Obviously this also is a scale-sensitive evaluation; a hundred men may be able successfully to "assault" a roadblock, but they will not be able successfully to "assault" the entire Vraks citadel.
Used in this sense, "assault" and "siege" may be complementary, but they are not the same. A siege may be used to weaken a position to increase the likelihood of success by an assault with the available forces. However, a siege may be used to reduce a position entirely, with no assault whatsoever, and an assault may be launched with no preparatory siege.

I know GW rarely thinks in these terms, but I think it would assist us to keep in mind the distinctions as we go forward.

[Old_Paladin]

I think you make a good point.
Although, the definition of besiege is "to conquer by means of attrition or assault"
But to counter my own definition; a siege cannot be a 'coup de main'; meaning it's not a siege if you win in a single action.

So a siege could actually be nothing more then many assaults, with nothing else we would consider 'siege work'; such as undermining defenses, shelling, starvation, propaganda, etc.


Also, the notion of a specialist in besieging bathrooms made me laugh very hardily.

[Melissia]

The Templars did breach the wall. Exact word for word quote when I get back from my game.

Then we have conflicting fluff. Fun times.

[Sangre]

Then we have conflicting fluff. Fun times.

Expecting consistency? From a writing team? The shock of it just nearly made my balls drop off.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Then we have conflicting fluff. Fun times.


For months the combined arms laid siege to the Ecclesiarchal Palace without success until a forlorn hope led by Emperor's Champion Navarre assaulted a breach in the outer walls.

So a breach was forced...


Navarre lifted it high and carried the holy icon across the breach to victory...

So the Templars took the walls....



With the capture of the outer walls forces loyal to the Emperor fought within the precincts of the palace, something that had not happened since the dark days of the Horus Heresy

So we did lead the assault that captured the outer walls AND we pushed inside the palace.

It goes on to say the fighting ended when Alicia killed Vandire. So our arguments are not mutually exclusive. We kept up the pressure and the Sisters ran it in for the touchdown.

[Pi666]

Are you arguing in fluff terms if marines can hold or not a siege? Just 3 words: GALAXY IN FLAMES

They were few than the enemy. They survived a bloody Exterminatus. Their enemies had better equipment, supplies, and abilities. How long was the siege? And the attackers needed a f****ng traitor to get the job done. So, if the debate now is if Marines can hold a siege the answer is YES, with capital letters.

Besides, I read a marine need to sleep (cannot quote, 4 post pages in a night???). As a matter of fact they do not. They can enter a semi meditation estate in which half of the brain rests while the marine is able and ready.

I don't think the supplies of bolter ammo would be a problem. They won't just stay n the walls shooting at anything that moves, they'd wait until the sieger would make a breach in a wall, try to infiltrate or something, and then the attacker is in the marine teritory, a point blank firefight.

As siegers, amrine probably are not the best force, but remember they're Imperial dudes, if they need huge cannons they can borrow them from the Mechanicum, and when these guns get a breach, there's no better ones than the marines to go trough the breach.

[Melissia]

Marshall2Crusaders: The fluff contradiction is, simply, that I have not read anywhere else that they actually managed to breach. Numerous sources do not state a breach at all, and one source does-- so there is a contradiction. It's not like it'd be the first time, nor does it necesarily devalue any of the sources, rather, it devalue's GW's ability to keep a consistent storyline :P

[Old_Paladin]

I'm going to side with Mel and Nab, and say that we shouldn't bother discussing the ability of Legions. A legion can deploy 10-12 thousand battle-brothers.
When I defend marines holding a siege, I mean a company (or even a few).
Do I think that 14 Chapters of Marines, deploying everything they have could hold stuff; yes. but thats not the point.
That like saying guard are better, want proof. Cadia!
Look, 18 Billion+ guardsman can beat the entire alliance of Abbadon, thus guard are better then marines.

[Nabterayl]

Right. I don't think there's any doubt that marine chapter strike forces can and have overcome the defenses of fortified positions by direct attack in such a way that they or allied Guard forces could effective follow through. We've seen chapter strike forces do that several times, and for this sort of situation the short range of the marines' heavy guns doesn't present the logical quandary it does in a protracted siege situation. Even the speed of a Vindicator is relevant in an assault, as it decreases the amount of time the enemy's long-range guns can fire on the approaching Vindicator before the Vindicator is in range to do its job.

What I do have serious questions about is the ability of a chapter (not legion) strike force to isolate (i.e., invest) a prepared position. It takes a lot of men to man circumvalation works - if you're surrounding a position that is half a mile across, even at a distance of two hundred yards (which ought to be well within range of even the enemy's medium guns, so that's a very uncomfortable position for the besiegers), your circumvalation works are almost 9000 feet long. If you have, say, two hundred marines in your strike force, that means you have an average of one marine every 45 feet - even less if you're using marines to construct counter-works (e.g., sapping). I know that you don't literally have one man every 45 feet, and I know that marine armor and jump troops can respond to breakout (or break-in) attempts faster than Guard troops, but I still have to ask ... is it faster enough (given that some of those troops are going to be on the other side of the circle)? It's hard for me to imagine a chapter strike force successfully isolating even a relatively small position like this - it seems like their blockade would be fairly porous, so the marines would almost have to end things by assault. That doesn't say "siege specialist" in my vocabulary. It says "you should have just assaulted them from the get-go; you can actually do that."

I don't have similar problems imagining, say, an Imperial Fist officer having great expertise in siege operations, and directing an Imperial Guard force in isolating a position while his two hundred or so marines are held in reserve until the time is judged right to attempt an assault. But imagining those same two hundred or so marines successfully isolating a position by themselves is hard for me to get my head around, and I'm not sure we've ever seen any instances of it, either.

EDIT: As a reminder, the point of all this deduction isn't to pin another "You can't do this, nyah nyah" button on space marines. It's just an attempt to figure out what Games Workshop must mean when they say that certain chapters are "siege specialists." If we can deduce that they probably aren't investment specialists, we could reasonably conclude that they must specialize in assaulting prepared positions, instead (assault in the military sense, not the 40K sense of the Assault Phase).

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Marshall2Crusaders: The fluff contradiction is, simply, that I have not read anywhere else that they actually managed to breach. Numerous sources do not state a breach at all, and one source does-- so there is a contradiction. It's not like it'd be the first time, nor does it necesarily devalue any of the sources, rather, it devalue's GW's ability to keep a consistent storyline :P

Its like reading a book on World War Two and no mention being made of Cerentan, it doesn't mean neither happened if it doesn't mention the other. The breach itself was obviously a major part in a very long siege, but it wasn't the winning move.

[Nabterayl]

Gotta agree with that - failure to mention is not the same as stating that something didn't happen. I don't know what you've read, Mel, but if it doesn't state that a breach didn't occur, then there's no contradiction, just a curiosity.

[Melissia]

But not major enough apparently. Or perhaps that's just that chapter's view of how it happened (I recall a certain battle in the heresy where the loyalists and traitors each had a different version of what happened...).

Nabterayl: No offense, but having the walls of the Imperial Palace breached is a very major thing. If it's not mentioned it's hard to believe it actually happened. I find it far more likely that the Sisters just let the Marines in after killing Vandire and then the Marines went about finishing of the Vandire loyalists.

[Duke]

After reading all of this I can safely say that it is pointless...lol

Seriously, anyone who has ever studied any Military action knows that Spec Ops. does not have the scope that the Army group does... However, they can do things that the Army couldn't hope to do without massive casualties.

We all know that marines are very similar to the medieval Knight. When Countires of that time went to war the Knights themselves couldn't hold a siege. However, if you were stupid the knights would make you pay. Same thing with Marines. Just like the Knights they are an elite force who are good at what they do, but they aren't supposed to do it all. (though with enough numbers and the right situation they can)

So that said, my official posistion is that marines are badass, they stomp everything in the galaxy when in their element. They have a wide array of tactical and strategic advantages, but they are no longer organized for protracted warfare. They are now organized for "Severe the head, kill the body," engagements.


Duke

[Melissia]

Of course it's stupid, why else would we already have three pages of discussion?

[Nabterayl]

Nabterayl: No offense, but having the walls of the Imperial Palace breached is a very major thing. If it's not mentioned it's hard to believe it actually happened. I find it far more likely that the Sisters just let the Marines in after killing Vandire and then the Marines went about finishing of the Vandire loyalists.

Yes, of course it is. But we aren't reading history books about the siege of the Imperial Palace. Even if we were, we'd have to consider what story our source wanted to tell. A story about the enlightenment of Alicia Dominica wouldn't necessarily mention the breach of the walls of the Imperial Palace (do we know which walls? You can breach a wall in West Bengal and have breached a wall in the Imperial Palace, but hundreds of miles away in the throne room you wouldn't even feel it. Heck, the earth could swallow up a wall in West Bengal and have destroyed a wall in the Imperial Palace, and the throne room wouldn't even feel the tremor).

And then there's the rules of sci-fi historiography as compared to the rules of regular historiography. If a later author states that the palace walls were breached, while prior authors make no mention of it, sci-fi historiography doesn't really blink.

@Duke:

That's my position too. The more I think about it, the more likely it seems to me that "siege chapters" are specialists in assaulting fortified positions, not investing them. That seems within the bounds of GW's ordinary [mis-]usage of military terms, and it fits with the rest of marine lore.

[Denzark]

I'm quite amazed this is still on. However, I will crank the handle one more time:

PRIMUS:


Actually yes, I can very easily state that all Astartes elements are bad for prolonged defense in ocmparison to the Guard. And I do. There might be chapters that specialize in it, but they still won't be as good as an equivalent Guard force.

Hang on - let me see - I know its not COD but this is from Dictionary.com:

e⋅quiv⋅a⋅lent  /ɪˈkwɪvələnt or, for 5, ˌikwəˈveɪlənt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [i-kwiv-uh-luhnt or, for 5, ee-kwuh-vey-luhnt] –adjective
1. equal in value, measure, force, effect, significance, etc.: His silence is equivalent to an admission of guilt.
2. corresponding in position, function, etc.: In some ways their prime minister is equivalent to our president.

Now if you mean def one - equal in value etc - therefore as good as a guard force.

If you mean def 2, corresponding in position, you are saying a siege guard formation (regiment, division, corps, army group?) is as good as a siege chapter? A siege CHAPTER?

there is no fluff evidence that I am aware of where a purely guard force has defeated an entire(rogue/rebel) chapter. I might allow you that a CRUSADE level of force - several army groups - could have a good go at it. But nothing less. this is hardly equivalency and you don't get a crusade purely made up of siege specialists. You can't be talking pure siege forces, particuallrly offensive, becasue the initial break-in relies on the fleet somewhat whereas a chapter has its own. So by definition siege guard therefore can't do offensive on its own - so allowing them fleet you allow the chapter you are comparing all their asssets. Game over man, game over.

SECUNDUS:

the debate about yes a siege chapter could take one stronghold but not more than that? read Space Marine, by Ian Wilson - explains how the Imperial Fists overthrow a rebel governor. 700 marines hit the planet - the key battle is attacking the governors capital city, a defended position (I mean formally prepared entrenchments) that happens to have 7 titans, one Imperator class, on side. Results - Marines 1, rebels 0.

TERTIUS:

I am re-reading FULGRIM from the HH series. An Emperor's Children Captain, leading from the front, attacks the defenders in prepared positions outside the bridge - fleet trooper equivalents, not just crew with a few pistols. He goes into a proper postal fit, and when he comes around, there are 50 bodies. Yes 50. HOW IN THE NAME OF THE EMPEROR'S HOLY JOCKSTRAP COULD ANYBODY CONSIDER THEM NOT TO BE BADASSES????

[Nabterayl]

SECUNDUS:

the debate about yes a siege chapter could take one stronghold but not more than that? read Space Marine, by Ian Wilson - explains how the Imperial Fists overthrow a rebel governor. 700 marines hit the planet - the key battle is attacking the governors capital city, a defended position (I mean formally prepared entrenchments) that happens to have 7 titans, one Imperator class, on side. Results - Marines 1, rebels 0.
I for one am never going to tell a commando he can't do something :p

For those of us who haven't read the book, can you describe the operation from a high-level point of view? Again, I don't think anybody's doubting that marines are great for smashing a hole in a defended position. The question is about other elements of "siege" warfare, such as the ability to invest.

[Duke]

@ Denzark: I don't know that anyone is saying they aren't "badass," what everyone is saying is that they have their limits (Also, realize that some people (M) really doesn't like Astartes at all...)

In our comparisons we have to be careful not to compare Legion actions to those of Chapters.

The whole point of the Codex Astartes was to limit the power of a Legion so that it COULDN'T do everything. If a single chapter can still do everything at anytime and anywhere then the codex failed.

Again: Astartes are super awsome, and are second (in sci-fi lore) only to Jedi in power (IMHO) but they have their limits.

Duke

[Denzark]

Not really beacuase it is described from Scouts doing terror raids in the enemy rear - they find the limbless bodies of a Blood Drinker Lt, who has been encased in lead (still alive). He tells them his squad of ten discovered the seven titans. the scouts go after the emperor crew and eat their brains to get rudimentary use of it - enough to kill one and distract the others.

Meanwhile, the fists have landed away from the city which is heavily surrounded with defence lasers - they advance the distance in LRs and attack, surprised and take casualtes from titans (scouts in comms silence) but use the opportunity given by the emperor titan to win through.

Planetary governor escapes (like some made james Bond villain) so they hit another planet where he is found to be tzeentch possessed. Even in league with Squats! AAAAIIIIEEEE! (this is actually in the book not my diseased mind).

In the end as with all enemies of the emperor he is put to the sword.

[Denzark]

@ duke

Ha! You are right about the jedi but hang on - think if you stuck them in Tactical Dreadnought Armour, allowed them to use their powers in righteous anger - how good would they be? Then we'd call them librarians.

The book I described regarding Imp Fists is post heresy by the way - so an accurate asssessment may be that a chapter feels 700 marines is sufficient to subdue a planet?

[Nabterayl]

To be a little more precise, it sounds like the Fists thought seven hundred marines (which is a huge commitment for a marine chapter) sufficient to take out the planetary governor (and it sounds like they were right). There are many definitions of "subdue."

Thanks for the overview. Am I correct in stating that this was, fundamentally, a smash-and-grab (er, smash-and-execute) operation? That is (at a very high level of abstraction), the Fists dropped their scouts, who prepared the way, then landed their forces, smashed a way to their target, and banged out?

If that's a typical Imperial Fist "siege" operation, then that's exactly what Duke, myself, et al. are suspecting - they are "siege specialists" in the sense of conducting lightning raids against (and through) prepared defenses. The Astartes hallmark of land-destroy-leave is still there, though.

It occurs to me, I should clarify - when people like Melissia and myself talk about marines behaving like commandos, we aren't suggesting that they can only attack weak or underdefended targets. Not at all. What we're suggesting is that what makes marines tick is speed and surprise. Even an expected frontal attack can have the element of surprise if it's fast enough.

To take an example (and I may get some facts wrong because I haven't read the book), suppose the scouts weren't able to co-opt that titan. Suppose that the Land Raider column landed and found seven enemy titans, led by an Emperor, barring their way. Suppose further that the Fists' attempts to defeat the titans and associated forces in battle failed (I'm not saying that they would, but bear with me). With their attack stopped cold in its tracks, what would the Imperial Fists do?

My guess is that they would extract and try something else. What I'm betting they wouldn't do (and perhaps couldn't do) is surround the governor's capital city so that nothing got in or out. That is a siege. Do you agree?

[DarkLink]

Ha! You are right about the jedi but hang on - think if you stuck them in Tactical Dreadnought Armour, allowed them to use their powers in righteous anger - how good would they be? Then we'd call them librarians.
?

We'd call them Grey Knights:D

In fact, each and every Grey Knight Terminator is a Librarian level psyker. It's one of the requirements for the rank. Think about what that makes Brother Captains and Grand Masters [we need a drooling smilie face].



When we talk about Marines and Seiges, I'd say we have to assume that it wouldn't be like any seige you've ever seen. More like an extended period of precise assaults preventing the enemy from leaving his compound, until one of the assaults manages to break in. It wouldn't be like WWI, with everyone sitting across from each other, holding lines and such.

[Nabterayl]

When we talk about Marines and Seiges, I'd say we have to assume that it wouldn't be like any seige you've ever seen. More like an extended period of precise assaults preventing the enemy from leaving his compound, until one of the assaults manages to break in. It wouldn't be like WWI, with everyone sitting across from each other, holding lines and such.

Right ... that's pretty much the form a pure marine blockade would have to take, I agree. But is even that practical enough for a chapter to specialize in? I have my doubts. It seems like it would take extraordinarily favorable geography, or a very small target, to successfully blockade a position even with highly mobile troops like space marines, given the miniscule numbers involved in even a huge pure space marine deployment. And without a blockade (whether static or mobile), it isn't a siege (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege).

[Denzark]

To be a little more precise, it sounds like the Fists thought seven hundred marines (which is a huge commitment for a marine chapter) sufficient to take out the planetary governor (and it sounds like they were right). There are many definitions of "subdue."

Thanks for the overview. Am I correct in stating that this was, fundamentally, a smash-and-grab (er, smash-and-execute) operation? That is (at a very high level of abstraction), the Fists dropped their scouts, who prepared the way, then landed their forces, smashed a way to their target, and banged out?


To take an example (and I may get some facts wrong because I haven't read the book), suppose the scouts weren't able to co-opt that titan. Suppose that the Land Raider column landed and found seven enemy titans, led by an Emperor, barring their way. Suppose further that the Fists' attempts to defeat the titans and associated forces in battle failed (I'm not saying that they would, but bear with me). With their attack stopped cold in its tracks, what would the Imperial Fists do?

My guess is that they would extract and try something else. What I'm betting they wouldn't do (and perhaps couldn't do) is surround the governor's capital city so that nothing got in or out. That is a siege. Do you agree?

this wasn't strictly smash and grab with one objective ie Gov - (otherwise I'm sure vindicare would have been used) but to exterminate 'AD EXTREMUM FOETUM' ie remove his entire family, history, influence (which included the loyalty of the PDF) but also maintain the resources/industry - the book mentions this is why they didn't just nuke it. The scouts were more of a distration than a Main Effort or phase one.

Agree the Fists would have extracted and done something else which, in the unlikely event of them being repulsed, would probably be to do a quick combat estimate that says any thing big enough to repulse us is too big a threat to the imperium and thus the need to kill it outweighs the needs of the industrys - I say we take off and nuke the site from orbit etc.

For a full on, mediaevel siege, remember a large city couldn't be totally surrounded with a solid line of troops (a small castle might). A loose skirmish line with bodies of troops at strategic points, supplies, water, etc. would be thrown out, with all parties coming together for the assault. You don't need an unbroken line to dominate in a siege, just good lines of sight and cmmunciations between the attackers.

And I'm betting the Imperial Fists would do better at preventing anything leaving or getting in than say some half-arsed bretonian peasants - although you are right I think in saying the surround the place and starve them out is not very Imp fist.

Thinking of siege - a lightning raid, allowing you to achieve any objective that your opposition doesn't want you to, in the face of any prepared defences, would stil alow you to attract the epiphet 'Siege Masters' it would just be that you are so good at siege work that your knowledge and experience TRANSCENDS your bog-standard battering ram etc that you wouldn't need it.

Just because Wellington didn't resort to dead cows over the walls didn't make him any less effective in siege scenarios (I know he wasn't a siege master but the principle is similar):)

[Melissia]

By that definition, Denzark, the Sisters are even better at besieging than the Astartes are. One of the less understood pieces of Sororitas fluff has 1000 Sisters conquering 100 words unaided, with apparently no casualties, and toppling a tyrant at the end of that campaign. GW's fluff is by no means logical in all places. Regardless...


If you mean def 2, corresponding in position, you are saying a siege guard formation (regiment, division, corps, army group?) is as good as a siege chapter? A siege CHAPTER?
An equivalent in strength. One regiment is not equivalent in strength because each regiment holds only a single role, IE, one regiment is an infantry-only force, while the next is an arty-only force, while the next is tank-only, and so on and so forth. The Guard almost never has a single regiment go after any major objective. An army group would be appropriate, therefor-- the combined efforts of multiple regiments, which is FAR more common than the combined forces of an entire chapter. Actually it's far more common than all Marine strike forces of any kind.

I stand by my statement that they could do a siege better than any Astartes chapter. The Astartes would be better at doing raids, but a raid is not a siege. Astartes would definitely be good at BREAKING a siege, as well, one away or the other.

[Nabterayl]

Thinking of siege - a lightning raid, allowing you to achieve any objective that your opposition doesn't want you to, in the face of any prepared defences, would stil alow you to attract the epiphet 'Siege Masters' it would just be that you are so good at siege work that your knowledge and experience TRANSCENDS your bog-standard battering ram etc that you wouldn't need it.

The names aren't important to me, so long as I know what they mean. I don't trust Games Workshop to know what the word "siege" means (if there's no blockade, it isn't a siege, no matter how formidable the defenses; that's just what the word means), which is why this is an interesting conversation. As long as I know that by "siege specialist" Games Workshop means "defeating and penetrating prepared positions specialist," I'm ok :)

As for the blockades, I know that you don't necessarily need to invest a position to besiege it, but even a mobile blockade requires a certain amount of numbers, because you need to position your forces so that you can intercept people trying to pierce your blockade at any point along its perimeter with sufficient force. For instance, I doubt that a battle company could blockade Los Angeles. Seven Rhinos, twenty jump packs (or twenty of some combination of jump pack, bike, and Land Speeder) and half a dozen Thunderhawks (if you use your devastators as Thunderhawk custodians to get more mobility out of them) would have a damn hard time sealing a perimeter that is 250 miles long (which doesn't even include the coastline), and I'm pretty sure that Los Angeles is a village hamlet by 40K standards.

[DarkLink]

I would say that a reasonable sized force of Marines would have the mobility to enact a mobile siege. They are extremely mobile thanks to Thunderhawks and such, so as soon as they get word of an attempted enemy breakout they could smash it like they do so well. Eventually, the enemy will be afraid to try and leave, and will just bunker down.

For the Marines, it isn't about how much force, but how that force is applied. They don't have the raw force to hold an entire line, but because of the precision and speed with which they can apply a force, they can seem to be in several places almost at once. Thunderhawks and such act as significant force multipliers.

[Melissia]

Yes, they COULD have that capability... but in the end, it's stlil hard to argue that Guard wouldn't have the same mobility (chimeras, valkyries, etc), but even MORE capability to do it due to simply having the numbers to use such a tactic. Skill and equipment can only go so far in making up for lack of numbers.

[Nabterayl]

It occurs to me that there might be a material difference here depending on whether you're operating in enemy or in friendly territory. If you're besieging an enemy position on an otherwise friendly world, for instance, yes, the Thunderhawks will be a big deal. Even if there's only six gunships and six transporters (which seems to be the correct complement for a strike cruiser, cross-referencing Epic and BFG - battle barges seem to go up to nine and nine), that's still enough to make an entire battle company air-mobile (as long as you have other marines to, you know, pilot the Thunderhawks - but I'm pretty convinced that "one battle company" almost always means "one battle company plus several squads from reserve companies, but we don't talk about them because we're British").

If you're operating on an enemy world, the Thunderhawks might be significantly constrained. Six (or even nine) Thunderhawks is not enough to establish air superiority, as I think we've analyzed pretty well here (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=3265). And marine mobile AA, while good, is apparently damnably rare (three entire companies of Raptors on Taros fielded one Whirlwind Hyperios, and IA2 tells us that, aside from the White Scars, "many chapters have a few" Land Speeder Tempests). So if the enemy has his own fighters to keep the Thunderhawks from deploying at will, the Thunderhawks will likely have to retreat to space, which I imagine severely diminishes their usefulness as a quick-response enabler.

[DarkLink]

Lack of air superiority would be a problem. It could be dealt with one of two ways, either military assistance from the Imperial Guard or Navy, or, more relevant to our discussion, special forces operations.

One of the big things special forces have traditionally been trained for was sabotage missions like destroying enemy air before it, well, gets in the air. If the Marines wanted to deal with enemy air, drop pod strikes at enemy air bases and space ports would be vital. They would need to cripple the enemy air force/navy sufficiently that Thunderhawks and transporters could handle what remained, or even better fly uncontested.

[Melissia]

Which would assume that a Marine strike force even COULD do that without assistance. Personally, I think not. Mind you, The way GW has commanders act, Marines don't need to act intelligently-- I don't think the Marines have faced more than a few dozen intelligent opponents over the course of their ten thousand years of existence. Which goes to show the depth of GW's understanding of military tactics.

[Sitnam]

Which would assume that a Marine strike force even COULD do that without assistance. Personally, I think not. Mind you, The way GW has commanders act, Marines don't need to act intelligently-- I don't think the Marines have faced more than a few dozen intelligent opponents over the course of their ten thousand years of existence. Which goes to show the depth of GW's understanding of military tactics.

If they conducted such operations completely alone, I see marines having trouble if their strike force got bogged down, but possible. But if it was an operation on a much larger front, such as Astartes involvement in the Vraks and Taros campaign, then Astartes have a good chance of winning such operations. Just the fact that Guard or any other Imperial force would be in much larger numbers and a much more present threat could distract them from Marine strikes.

[Melissia]

Yes... which involves the Astartes needing the help of the other branches of the Imperial military in order to function properly in these situations. Which goes against the claims of many of the Astartes proponents in this thread.

[Nabterayl]

Which would assume that a Marine strike force even COULD do that without assistance. Personally, I think not. Mind you, The way GW has commanders act, Marines don't need to act intelligently-- I don't think the Marines have faced more than a few dozen intelligent opponents over the course of their ten thousand years of existence. Which goes to show the depth of GW's understanding of military tactics.
Not sure how strongly you mean that, Mel. I certainly agree with DarkLink that destroying enemy air assets on the ground is within marines' purview. If that's just an incidental objective, though, and if we aren't talking about a single airbase but several, scattered across a large area, I think the question becomes what the timeframe of the siege is, how successful the preparatory raids are, and what the enemy's manufacturing capabilities are.

What you wouldn't want to happen is to find that you can't pin down the total air assets on the planet to destroy them with commando raids (which I think is a plausible scenario as long as there's a decent number of squadrons on the world), or try this on a world that can manufacture aircraft faster than you can bring your siege to a close, so you're forever having to break off the blockade to go hunt down the aircraft that stop your blockade. Either situation would have you end up just running in circles.

[Bean]

I think that GW's grasp on strategy, tactics, and military matters in general is demonstrably quite poor, and that has led to a fluff which is almost completely incompatible with any conventional or sensible approach to strategy or tactics.

The most irritating thing for me is the Space Marine's lack of naval resources. I understand that there is a fluff justification for it, but that justification is inane, and it leaves your standard marine chapter woefully ill equipped to perform its task against anything but the most unprepared or material-poor opponents.

Imagine: a Space Marine Battle Company is dispatched to put down the rebellion of a planetary governor. Nothing unusual there.

But, when the Marine Strike Cruiser arrives in-system, they find that the planetary governor has a battle cruiser in orbit. Whoops. Guess that whole Space Marine Company--enough men and materiel to crush whole armies (allegedly) iif only they could land-- will just have to go back and ask for help from the Navy, 'cause there's no way their strike cruiser is going to force its way through a battle cruiser to drop off its passengers. If it tries, the most likely result is that the Strike Cruiser gets blown away and all the Marines die without even touching down.

Marines without a competitive navy are stupid, plain and simple. In space, any army which is not solely a planetary defense force is stupid without a substantial fleet--and even planetary defense forces will be in trouble if the enemy shows up with warships (which they almost certainly will) and they don't have a fleet of their own.

It also doesn't help that the ships of 40k appear to have been designed by children who have seen too many pictures of Ships of the Line. They are about as well designed for fights in space as a brick is designed for swimming. GWs designers have a great sense of style, but little actual sense.

In other words, it's better not to think about it too hard--the fluff is never going to resolve nicely with common sense and trying to hold it to anything other than its internal standard of incompetent commanders, mind-bogglingly inane strategies, and battles which have no reasonable justification at all will just dull your enjoyment of the game. I know it has mine...

[Old_Paladin]

The most irritating thing for me is the Space Marine's lack of naval resources. I understand that there is a fluff justification for it, but that justification is inane, and it leaves your standard marine chapter woefully ill equipped to perform its task against anything but the most unprepared or material-poor opponents.

Imagine: a Space Marine Battle Company is dispatched to put down the rebellion of a planetary governor. Nothing unusual there.

But, when the Marine Strike Cruiser arrives in-system, they find that the planetary governor has a battle cruiser in orbit. Whoops. Guess that whole Space Marine Company--enough men and materiel to crush whole armies (allegedly) iif only they could land-- will just have to go back and ask for help from the Navy, 'cause there's no way their strike cruiser is going to force its way through a battle cruiser to drop off its passengers. If it tries, the most likely result is that the Strike Cruiser gets blown away and all the Marines die without even touching down.

Marines without a competitive navy are stupid, plain and simple. In space, any army which is not solely a planetary defense force is stupid without a substantial fleet--and even planetary defense forces will be in trouble if the enemy shows up with warships (which they almost certainly will) and they don't have a fleet of their own.

It also doesn't help that the ships of 40k appear to have been designed by children who have seen too many pictures of Ships of the Line. They are about as well designed for fights in space as a brick is designed for swimming. GWs designers have a great sense of style, but little actual sense.

In other words, it's better not to think about it too hard--the fluff is never going to resolve nicely with common sense and trying to hold it to anything other than its internal standard of incompetent commanders, mind-bogglingly inane strategies, and battles which have no reasonable justification at all will just dull your enjoyment of the game. I know it has mine...

That's not the point of a Strike Cruiser though; the hint lies in its name, it's a medium cruiser made for quick strikes. The fact that it can go toe-to-toe with any similar weight class and out-numbered two to one and usually win, shows it's still a powerful ship. The fact that it cannot fight head-to-head against ships two or three times its size doesn't mean it can't do its job. Against heavy battleships, it's going to be faster. In that case it will be on the far side of the planet, dropping off the battle-brothers to their target (with can be done very, very quickly).

Additionally, space marines do have fleets; they're just smaller. But they still have light destroyers and frigates (crewed by chapter surfs and several battle brothers), that add to their numbers and abilities.
I won't even touch on the abnormal chapters, such as Wolves and Relictors, which have a totally different fleet desposition.

That said, I'm not saying the Navy is pointless, or that Marines can do everything and anything. Marines can't be everywhere at once, and they cannot fight large scale fleet battles. However, a single battleship is unlikely to stop a battle-company from making planet fall.


Umm... why would a ship of the line (which have weapons that can shoot in every direction but aft), be poorly designed in a medium that essentually has no up/down, left/right).
Look at most capital ships in the starwars movies, those are ships of the line; and I've never heard a sci-fi nerd say those are poorly functional in space.

[Nabterayl]

The most irritating thing for me is the Space Marine's lack of naval resources. I understand that there is a fluff justification for it, but that justification is inane, and it leaves your standard marine chapter woefully ill equipped to perform its task against anything but the most unprepared or material-poor opponents.
It is inane, but the entire structure of the Imperial military is inane, and deliberately so. Think of the battle company structure by itself - one hundred and five space marines, seven Rhinos or Razorbacks, and no drivers. Tac squads either have to leave one of their number behind to mind the car, or they need to call on the reserve companies just to use "their" dedicated transports. You want a Predator? Have to convince the Master of the Forge that you really need it, first. Oooh, you wanted a Predator with lascannon? Sorry, the Master of the Forge disagrees. And a dozer blade? Nah ... you're not gonna need that. Oh, what's that? You want a crew for the Predator, too? Have to talk to Sixth Company about that.

And don't even start on the Guard :p

To a certain extent these things are accidental. But everything about the Imperium is written to be pulling-your-hair-out this-makes-no-sense people-get-killed-because-you-can't-organize-your-way-out-of-a-paper-bag inefficient. Space marines are no exception.


Imagine: a Space Marine Battle Company is dispatched to put down the rebellion of a planetary governor. Nothing unusual there.

But, when the Marine Strike Cruiser arrives in-system, they find that the planetary governor has a battle cruiser in orbit. Whoops. Guess that whole Space Marine Company--enough men and materiel to crush whole armies (allegedly) iif only they could land-- will just have to go back and ask for help from the Navy, 'cause there's no way their strike cruiser is going to force its way through a battle cruiser to drop off its passengers. If it tries, the most likely result is that the Strike Cruiser gets blown away and all the Marines die without even touching down.
Gotta side with Old Paladin on this one. The presence of a battlecruiser is a serious intelligence flaw, so serious that it should result in either failure or success by hair-raising heroics. Missing a battlecruiser in-system is like missing a 90-gunner in harbor.


Marines without a competitive navy are stupid, plain and simple. In space, any army which is not solely a planetary defense force is stupid without a substantial fleet--and even planetary defense forces will be in trouble if the enemy shows up with warships (which they almost certainly will) and they don't have a fleet of their own.
Yes, it is. Deliberately so. GW hasn't tried to write space marines as the ultimate fast reaction force of the future. They've tried to write them as the ultimate fast reaction force of the Imperium, and they are, simply by virtue of the fact that they have a navy at all. Heck, even in-universe, the whole point of the Codex Astartes is to gimp what a chapter can do.


It also doesn't help that the ships of 40k appear to have been designed by children who have seen too many pictures of Ships of the Line. They are about as well designed for fights in space as a brick is designed for swimming. GWs designers have a great sense of style, but little actual sense.
Well, to be fair, all of the vehicles in the Imperium look like they were designed by children. It's pervasive enough that I'm pretty sure it's deliberate.


In other words, it's better not to think about it too hard--the fluff is never going to resolve nicely with common sense and trying to hold it to anything other than its internal standard of incompetent commanders, mind-bogglingly inane strategies, and battles which have no reasonable justification at all will just dull your enjoyment of the game. I know it has mine...
It hasn't mine. Yes, it's pulling-your-hair-out this-makes-no-sense people-get-killed-because-you-can't-organize-your-way-out-of-a-paper-bag inefficient. But if it were perfect, I'd have such a harder time writing stories about it.


Umm... why would a ship of the line (which have weapons that can shoot in every direction but aft), be poorly designed in a medium that essentually has no up/down, left/right).
Look at most capital ships in the starwars movies, those are ships of the line; and I've never heard a sci-fi nerd say those are poorly functional in space.
Heh ... you haven't talked to the right sci-fi nerds, then. But even a Star Destroyer is "better designed" than an Imperial warship. A Star Destroyer's geometry means that every gun on the ship can fire forward, even if only half of them can fire to either flank or dorsally or ventrally. No Imperial vessel can bring every weapon to bear on any bearing. Most of them can only bring their lance batteries to bear on their dorsal aspect, and on many classes, their ventral aspects are wide open.

But this, too, is deliberate. You'll notice that the Tau, who actually design their warships, build their fire arcs much more like a Star Destroyer's.

[Old_Paladin]

Yes, it's pulling-your-hair-out this-makes-no-sense people-get-killed-because-you-can't-organize-your-way-out-of-a-paper-bag inefficient. But if it were perfect, I'd have such a harder time writing stories about it.

The fact is that that's how the Imperium of Man works, in all aspects of it's operation.
I love the part of Guns of Tanith, when the Ghosts are given the wrong type of las-cells.
They were given 'standard' power-cells. They needed standard size 3's, but got standard size 5's. Because everything in the Guard is standard issue.
So the standard issue guardsman, threatened to put his standard issue boot, up the standard issue pencile-necked clerk's standard issue butt!

@Nab;
That's only true of Imperial Star Destroyers, and Mon Calamari Cruisers.
The Republic Star Destroyer can only easily fire two of its 8 heavy guns forward; and Sepratist Star Destroyers (like the Invisible Hand) have even less forward firing ability.
That says that there is an evolution of design, to make things work better. The Imperium in 40K clearly does not have a similar aspect of advancement and development; stagnation is the standard or human technology.

[Bean]

That's not the point of a Strike Cruiser though; the hint lies in its name, it's a medium cruiser made for quick strikes. The fact that it can go toe-to-toe with any similar weight class and out-numbered two to one and usually win, shows it's still a powerful ship. The fact that it cannot fight head-to-head against ships two or three times its size doesn't mean it can't do its job. Against heavy battleships, it's going to be faster. In that case it will be on the far side of the planet, dropping off the battle-brothers to their target (with can be done very, very quickly).


I understand the role and design of a Strike Cruiser. In many ways, this focus is what makes the Space Marine fleets so inane. They're geared towards supporting a landing rather than ship-to-ship combat. That seems to make sense, since Marines do landings, but, in reality, it makes no sense at all.

There is no landing if you can't fight through the defending ships, and Marines don't need as much help with a landing as they do with getting to the planet in the first place. Designing ships to support landings would make sense if those were specialized ships within a larger fleet of ships which were actually designed for ship on ship combat. On their own, they make little sense at all.

Beyond that, a Strike Cruiser is 25% faster than most Imperial battle cruisers (and not a match for any of them, one on one.) 25% faster might be nice, but it isn't enough to let anyone get to the opposite side of a planet without being engaged by a ship orbiting the planet. It's a simple matter of distances. To circumnavigate a planet from a thousand kilometers out involves traveling four times the distance that it takes to circumnavigate a planet from five hundred kilometers out. If a ship is in a low orbit, it would take a ship traveling many times faster to run around to the opposite side of the planet without being engaged (and this, of course, is ignoring the fact that 'fast' in space combat is meaningless--only acceleration matters, and GW writers haven't really bothered to account for that at all). Strike cruisers aren't exactly slow, but they're not nearly fast enough to do what you suggest.





Additionally, space marines do have fleets; they're just smaller. But they still have light destroyers and frigates (crewed by chapter surfs and several battle brothers), that add to their numbers and abilities.
I won't even touch on the abnormal chapters, such as Wolves and Relictors, which have a totally different fleet desposition.


They do, and some do more than others. Even so, they're poorly equipped for actual naval engagements, especially since their large ships aren't really designed for that sort of thing. This is a problem because, no matter how good your marines are, they're worth very little if they can't get to the ground.



That said, I'm not saying the Navy is pointless, or that Marines can do everything and anything. Marines can't be everywhere at once, and they cannot fight large scale fleet battles. However, a single battleship is unlikely to stop a battle-company from making planet fall.


A single battleship is practically guaranteed to stop a battle company from making planetfall. It would take a monumentally stupid captain to fail at such an easy chore. Again, your concept of what a little extra speed would actually do for the marines, in this situation, is fatally flawed.

Even if you were right, and the battle company somehow did make it to the planet, the Strike Cruiser couldn't stick around to provide support, but the Battleship easily could. Those marines would be under constant bombardment from the time they landed. I don't know if you play much Apocalypse, but it wouldn't take very many Orbital Bombardments to completely wipe out a Battle Company.

And, of course, even if the Battle Company did manage to evade the Battleship and land on the opposite side of a planet, it's the opposite side of the planet from whatever their objective was. The marines would have no hope of establishing air superiority with that battleship there, so they'd better hope they managed to land somewhere connected to their objective by land. Even if they are capable of getting where they're going, they'd have weeks or months of travel by Rhino, with no hope of refuel or resupply, being bombarded by that battleship the whole way. It would be a slower form of suicide than sitting in the Cruiser while the Cruiser lost to the battleship, but it would be suicide none-the-less.



Umm... why would a ship of the line (which have weapons that can shoot in every direction but aft), be poorly designed in a medium that essentually has no up/down, left/right).
Look at most capital ships in the starwars movies, those are ships of the line; and I've never heard a sci-fi nerd say those are poorly functional in space.

In space, you don't want your guns to point in all directions. What you want is to be able to bring as many guns to bear on a target at once as you can. Covering space is of secondary importance.

Imperial ships are built in such a way that most of their guns are being wasted most of the time, and they can't turn or rotate on any of their axes fast enough to make up for the difference (as compared to ships in, say, the Honor Harrington series, which spin quickly about their long axes so as to allow one broadside to fire while the other is reloading).

Imperial Star Destroyers aren't great, either, but they're much better than Imperial ships because, as Nabterayal said, they can actually bring all of their guns to bear on a forward target. As a bonus, they also have good coverage except to aft. Other ships from Star Wars, as you've mentioned, are less well designed--but if you've never seen any nerds complaining about them, it's only because you haven't been looking, or, more likely, sticking your thumbs in your ears and closing your eyes in an active attempt to avoid noticing the howling masses of star wars fans who know that, to a large degree, star wars ships are also inane.


To close, I realize that there are justifications for these obvious errors built into the fluff. That doesn't mean they bother me any less, though.

[Nabterayl]

Your points are well taken, Bean, but all this really points out is another sense in which what several people on these boards have been saying is true, that to handle anything really big, even space marine chapters need help. That's true of pretty much all aspects of the space marine war machine. This is an example of how it is true for their fleet.

Two observations, if I may:

One
It's not like cruisers are commonly going to be found defending star systems. Though 40K mostly adheres to the sci-fi standard Washington Naval Treaty terminology, remember that, unlike during the actual Washington Naval Treaty era, cruisers are capital ships. If a cruiser is in-system at all, it's because there's a Naval base in-system, it was just passing through, or the Navy has ordered its task group specifically to defend that planet.

By corollary, cruisers aren't under the authority of a planetary governor. The governor can go rogue, but it's hardly a given that he will take with him the Navy units, if any, stationed in his system.

Space marine lore makes more sense when you remember that the majority of systems are defended by system defense monitors, if they're defended by mobile units at all. Plenty of systems don't have any mobile space defenses. Punishing a rogue planetary governor might be a typical "space marines only" mission, yes, but a planetary governor with a cruiser on his side is definitely not a typical "space marines only" mission.

The forces that a rogue planetary governor can command are his system defense monitors and, if he's lucky, some corvettes. Those should be easy enough for a strike cruiser to sweep aside.

Two
If a marine force is opposed by capital ships, or a sufficient number of smaller vessels, it can absolutely be stopped in space. Admittedly, the threshold for serious opposition is, by the standards of a large campaign, fairly low. For instance, a single heavy cruiser would be difficult for a strike cruiser to defeat, and a single cruiser squadron would require a significant portion of a chapter's fleet to counter.

But this is not actually different from the situation marines face in any other theater of war. As we've discussed in several other threads, there is a limit to the size of target a space marine chapter can successfully engage on its own. Marines can handle forces many times their size, and even with many times their combat power, but they do it by using their superior strategic mobility to overwhelm small pieces of a superior force. If they are forced to engage the enemy's full strength on terms not of their choosing, things almost always go badly for them, even in the cases where they technically win the engagement. A chapter strike force could certainly engage a traitor armored regiment so long as it can defeat individual platoons and companies in detail. If ever brought to battle against the entire regiment at once, even an entire chapter would have difficulty.

Same principle applies in space, really. If the enemy capital ships fall back on the planet, thereby forcing the marines to engage them all at once, yes, the marines are in serious trouble. Nothing wrong with that, or surprising.


How much this bothers one, I think, depends on what one imagines space marines should be capable of. Me, I'm pretty comfortable with the commando analogy. I don't expect space marines to be able to penetrate to any target large enough to have capital ships defending it all on their own. The presence of capital ships inherently suggests a well-prepared foe, and well-prepared foes require a more full-spectrum response than commandos, however capable, can provide.

If you imagine that space marine chapters are thousand-man full-blown armies that can handle entire enemy armies on their own, then the lack of a similarly capable fleet is naturally a head-scratcher. But I'd argue that that's not a fluff-accurate view of a space marine chapter in the first place.

[DarkLink]

I personally find it unlikely for the Marines to be completely alone in the vast majority of their assaults.

Because there are so few Marines, they would only have the time to engage in the most vital of military actions, where existing IG and Navy forces are insufficient. The Marines rarely act unsupported in practice, I think. It is possible, but with the degree of militarianism on the majority of worlds in the Imperium, there will almost certainly be friendly forces to free up the Marines to do their job of smashing vital targets and breaking the enemy apart piece by piece.


On an unrelated note, if anyone wants to read about excellent and realistic fleet battles and space combat tactics, check out The Lost Fleet series, by Jack Campbell. Basic conceptual understanding of physics required;).

[Melissia]

Personally, I see them as effectively a superhuman special forces unit. They function best doing rapid strikes against the enemy, withdrawing, and then striking somewhere else, destroying enemy supply chains, decimating command structures, etc. When faced with an actual army in front of it, the intelligent Marine commander runs away and then plans ways to make the best use of their strengths while minimizing their weaknesses, rather than facing that army head on.

[Ole]

Regarding naval actions:
It seems a strike cruiser won't be able to take out an actual (battle)cruiser, but keeping in mind how boarding in 40k/BFG seems to happen much more often than one might think, how aboput the typical Marines Hit-and-run attacks?

Go in, take out some critical components, retreat. Hit-and-Run, just in space, not on the ground. And I think we can all agree that Marines are really good at that.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Personally, I see them as effectively a superhuman special forces unit. They function best doing rapid strikes against the enemy, withdrawing, and then striking somewhere else, destroying enemy supply chains, decimating command structures, etc. When faced with an actual army in front of it, the intelligent Marine commander advances purposefully in a new direction and then plans ways to make the best use of their strengths while minimizing their weaknesses, rather than facing that army head on.

Fixed

[Melissia]

Retreating is nothing more than advancing away from one's enemy. An ancient times, the retreat was sounded when pulling off fo the battlefield, regardless of why they were pulling away.

[Nabterayl]

It's not that a strike cruiser couldn't handle a cruiser, I think, so much as that it isn't likely to be able to. Certainly a cruiser captain who lets a strike cruiser's worth of marines onto his ship is going to be in very sorry shape. The trick is getting there. Yes, the strike cruiser is faster and more maneuverable than an opposing heavy cruiser, but a well-handled heavy cruiser will still pound it into scrap. And yes, you could go over by Thunderhawk, but the cruiser's guns or fighters might shoot down the Thunderhawks, in which case it doesn't matter if you kill the cruiser because all your marines are dead. BFG implicitly recognizes this in its points costs, I think. A strike cruiser costs 145 points. All Navy and Chaos vessels except for light cruisers and escorts cost more than that.

Could a skillfully handled strike cruiser beat, say, a traitor Lunar-class vessel, even playing at a 35 point handicap? Certainly. But the strike cruiser is still at an overall disadvantage, and neither it nor its marine complement would necessarily come out of the engagement fit to do what they actually came there to do.

[Bean]

Your points are well taken, Bean, but all this really points out is another sense in which what several people on these boards have been saying is true, that to handle anything really big, even space marine chapters need help. That's true of pretty much all aspects of the space marine war machine. This is an example of how it is true for their fleet.


I certainly agree with that. I guess it just bothers me that the marines are so dependent on other branches of the imperial military and yet so very separate from them. It just seems like a poor design--the marines should be in the same command structure as the Navy they rely on to function, and shouldn't really have their own separate, considerably less effective navies.








One
It's not like cruisers are commonly going to be found defending star systems. Though 40K mostly adheres to the sci-fi standard Washington Naval Treaty terminology, remember that, unlike during the actual Washington Naval Treaty era, cruisers are capital ships. If a cruiser is in-system at all, it's because there's a Naval base in-system, it was just passing through, or the Navy has ordered its task group specifically to defend that planet.

By corollary, cruisers aren't under the authority of a planetary governor. The governor can go rogue, but it's hardly a given that he will take with him the Navy units, if any, stationed in his system.

Space marine lore makes more sense when you remember that the majority of systems are defended by system defense monitors, if they're defended by mobile units at all. Plenty of systems don't have any mobile space defenses. Punishing a rogue planetary governor might be a typical "space marines only" mission, yes, but a planetary governor with a cruiser on his side is definitely not a typical "space marines only" mission.

The forces that a rogue planetary governor can command are his system defense monitors and, if he's lucky, some corvettes. Those should be easy enough for a strike cruiser to sweep aside.


That's certainly fair.




Two
If a marine force is opposed by capital ships, or a sufficient number of smaller vessels, it can absolutely be stopped in space. Admittedly, the threshold for serious opposition is, by the standards of a large campaign, fairly low. For instance, a single heavy cruiser would be difficult for a strike cruiser to defeat, and a single cruiser squadron would require a significant portion of a chapter's fleet to counter.

But this is not actually different from the situation marines face in any other theater of war. As we've discussed in several other threads, there is a limit to the size of target a space marine chapter can successfully engage on its own. Marines can handle forces many times their size, and even with many times their combat power, but they do it by using their superior strategic mobility to overwhelm small pieces of a superior force. If they are forced to engage the enemy's full strength on terms not of their choosing, things almost always go badly for them, even in the cases where they technically win the engagement. A chapter strike force could certainly engage a traitor armored regiment so long as it can defeat individual platoons and companies in detail. If ever brought to battle against the entire regiment at once, even an entire chapter would have difficulty.

Same principle applies in space, really. If the enemy capital ships fall back on the planet, thereby forcing the marines to engage them all at once, yes, the marines are in serious trouble. Nothing wrong with that, or surprising.


It's not surprising but it does seem to be a flaw in the design of the Marines. They're intended to fill a certain role, they're built and established as an independent organization, yet they routinely require the assistance of an entirely separate military organization to do their job? The lack of integration seems silly. If anything should be split out, it should be the guard split out as planetary defense forces while the marines continue to be associated with the navy.

I'm not saying there's no internal consistency within the fluff. I'm just saying that the product as a whole leave the Marines as sort of a silly organization.




How much this bothers one, I think, depends on what one imagines space marines should be capable of. Me, I'm pretty comfortable with the commando analogy. I don't expect space marines to be able to penetrate to any target large enough to have capital ships defending it all on their own. The presence of capital ships inherently suggests a well-prepared foe, and well-prepared foes require a more full-spectrum response than commandos, however capable, can provide.

If you imagine that space marine chapters are thousand-man full-blown armies that can handle entire enemy armies on their own, then the lack of a similarly capable fleet is naturally a head-scratcher. But I'd argue that that's not a fluff-accurate view of a space marine chapter in the first place.

I don't think that marines should be able to do more--I just think that they should be more closely associated with the actual Imperial Fleet. They're clearly dependent on naval power to function properly, and yet their naval power is severely curtailed and routinely inadequate. They should be subordinate to the navy, not independent and equal. I see how the current 'knightly order' marine chapters are cool, but they just don't make much sense from a practical standpoint.

[Nabterayl]

They don't make much sense from a modern standpoint, no. But hey, it's the Middle Ages. It's not supposed to make sense from a modern standpoint.

[Duke]

@ bean: after many discussions on astartes and military actions/ capabilities we have generally come to the conclusion that the military forces ofthe imperium are not organized well at all. Whether you think that the marines or the guard should be subordinate is arguable, overall though it is broken.

From my personal experience I feel that the guard should be mostly PDF with structure going from plaetary- system- sub sector- sector etc. The marines could be left autonomous but only able to be commanded by sector level command and can only command sub sector and below assets... Just my two cents.

[Old_Paladin]

I think we are starting to forget some very, very important aspects of fluff; namely the changes to military command post-heresy (although there have been hints back to it).

The design is that no single force can ever fight on its own again!
If guard turn traitor, then they cannot spread to new planets, as they have no ships.
If a Navy Fleet turns traitor, then they will have no safe harbour, as they have no ground troops for conquest.
If a chapter falls renagade, then they are a very small enemy, both in space and on land.

[Duke]

Not quite true, look at mecharian... What if he turned traitor?

[Nabterayl]

I think it is true, even if it's not the only policy at work (and even warmasters are subject to the oversight of the commissariat and the Inquisition, so it's not like they're just handed the keys and left alone). I mean, you can't seriously contest that the chapter system was put in place specifically to increase the dependence of the marines on the Navy and Guard.

As for the Navy and the Guard being separate branches of the service ... that's not really a surprise. Pretty sure that would remain even if we reorganized the Imperial military along "ideal" lines. The division of Guard regiments into armor, infantry, and artillery ... is partially for safety's sake. But I venture to guess that at least as big a concern is easing the administrative burden on the Munitorum.

[Duke]

I don't think I was anywhere near saying that the chapter system was created for that purpose of increased dependence.

Plus he used the qualifier "ever," which, as I pointed out is not quite true. To counter an all encompassig statement like "no single force Can ever fight on it'sI own again!" I only need one example.

I do agree that even under "ideal," conditions the main branches of the military will be seperate... Except for the biggest of actions (cadia defense, crusades, etc.)

[Melissia]

The division of Guard regiments amongst type (infantry, mechanized, armour, arty, etc) is perfectly fine when the Guard is capable of running multi-regimental task forces.

And 99% of the time, it is.

[Duke]

Well sure it makes sense you don't want infantry commanders Thinking that the armour moves similarly. People need to command what the they understand...unless your astartes, then you can do it all ;)

[Melissia]

Even that's arguable, aside from possibly the oldest and most experienced astartes in the galaxy. That's why chapters tend to specialize.

[Duke]

Even that's arguable, aside from possibly the oldest and most experienced astartes in the galaxy. That's why chapters tend to specialize.

I was trying to use sarcasm in my last post... Hence wink. But seriously based on the extensive training that astartes go through they make excellent field commanders becuase a tactical squad member has dine service in each area prior to his assignment to a tactical squad, so he has a more diverse background to draw from.

[Melissia]

Similar training that Generals are given, as generals command multi-regimental combat groups. Humans just don't typically live long enough that they can get the experience of an Astartes, but human generals DO often live that long if they are successful (rejuvenat tratements).

[Duke]

Right, but the natural problem of generals is that by the time they get the experince they can hardly lead from the front... Unlike an astartes who can still lead from the front for centuries after getting the experince.

[Melissia]

It's not that they can't lead from the front, rather, doing so tends to lead to shorter careers. Humans do not have the superior physical durability and regeneration ability of the Astartes, nor do the Guard have their power armor. They are just as capable as the average Guardsman, moreso actually-- certainly they tend to be better trained and healthier-- but there's no need to lead from the front where they can be killed. Dead martyrs do not make good leaders.

[Duke]

No, but good leaders make great dead martyrs!

I don't think they could lead from the front though (playing devils advocate) if generals are used to their command centers filled with adjuncts, I doubt the would be half as effective leading from the front.

[Melissia]

Depends on the general. Some generals lead from within such cushy confines, other generals lead from within their formation (one step away from the front lines) and others lead actually on the front lines. The second group, I think, tends to be the most useful to the Imperium, as they are close to their men and thus inspire them without putting themselves in too much danger.

[DarkLink]

And, of course, in real life commanders only ever lead from either comfy chairs (the bad generals, or really, really, really high ranking ones), or from just behind the front lines. But never actually on the front lines, unless an enemy attack reaches their position.

I'm gonna have to agree with Duke on the tactical skill of the Astartes, though. In order to just be a Marine, you have to have extensive skill in all areas of combat. A tactical Marine has decades of experience under his belt, in all forms of combat. A comparable amount of experience to a normal human general.

That's not to say that an Astartes will automatically be better than any human general, but they will do a very good job if they are forced to take command, under a very wide range of circumstances.

[Aldramelech]

The real skill in Generalship is logistics. Astarte's might have 100s of years of tactical experience but will posses little in the way of logistical experience and strategic planning.

Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study logistics - Von Clausewitz.

[Sangre]

Duke I think I should point out that Melissia has zero sense of humour, and hates everything in 40k that doesn't have breasts.

[Melissia]

Shutup Sangre.

In order to just be a Marine, you have to have extensive skill in all areas of combat. A tactical Marine has decades of experience under his belt, in all forms of combatThat does not make a general. Being able to participate in combat does not equate to being able to LEAD.

[Sangre]

Did we already mention that the presence of Dante to command the Imperial efforts at the Second War of Armageddon was not just a good idea, but specifically asked for by other Chapter Masters? Marines are generally good at leadership.

[Melissia]

Dante is as much an exception as an example, seeing as he is the oldest and most experienced-- and, perhaps, the most famous-- of all chapter masters. If Marines were trully so good at leadership, then any chapter master should have been able to fulfill that role, not just Dante.

[Sangre]

That's not a good argument and you know it. The Second War of Armageddon was the biggest conflict in the Imperium at the time, so it only made sense to ask for the best. Seeing as a Marine's natural lifespan (assuming he hasn't eaten a grenade at some point) is going to be longer than a human's anyway, Marines are statistically better-placed to have leadership experience.

[Melissia]

NATURAL lifespan maybe, but humans in 40K aren't limited to natural lifespans. Any important person is going to have their life extended by rejuvenat treatments-- Alicia Dominica and her subbordinates were still fighting on the front lines long after their human biology should have caused them to shut down, Ciaphas Cain was nearing his second century and he was TRYING to retire, and so on and so forth. Important humans reaching multiple centuries in age is not uncommon.

[Sangre]

The vast majority are, and even among the ones rich and powerful enough for juvenat have nowhere near the lifespan of a Marine.

[Melissia]

Except that they do. Marines, for all their skill and superior equipment, still very frequently die bloody and violent deaths-- this includes their leaders, specifically BECAUSE they fight on the front lines.

[Sangre]

Of course, your argument is ridiculous, because the ratio of Space Marines who die in battle compared to the overall number of Space Marines is going to be HUGELY less than the ratio of Guardsmen who die in battle compared to the overall number of Guardsmen.

[Melissia]

Of course, your argument is ridiculous, because the ratio of Space Marines who die in battle compared to the overall number of Space Marines is going to be HUGELY less than the ratio of Guardsmen who die in battle compared to the overall number of Guardsmen.
And your point is? Say something that's actually relevant :P

Guardsmen, as an organization, outnumber the Astartes by unfathomable amounts. I'm not talking about a thousand to one, no, that's just the amount of Guardsmen produced by a single planet in a single generation. Assuming it has a smaller population at any rate, some planets have their primary export as human bodies to the war machine, and they will have multiple billions in their numbers-- as their tithe, meaning that this is a regular contribution. The number of exceptional Guard leaders, I would argue, actually outweighs the number of Marines as a whole. These individuals tend to naturally find a place within the command structure of the Guard.

[Sangre]

The number of exceptional Guard leaders is tricky though because they all keep dying a lot.

Edit by Jwolf: Sangre does not feel that Sisters of Battle are an army that is good enough to warrant a new Codex.

[Bigred]

Play nice everyone...

[Melissia]

The number of exceptional Guard leaders is tricky though because they all keep dying a lot.

So do the Marines, and everyone else in the Galaxy other than the Necrontyr. However, the sheer scale of the Imperial Guard leads it to have far more in the way of exceptional individuals than you seem to be giving them credit to.

The Guard is not inept or incompetent. If they were, the Imperium would have fallen thousands of years ago. While the Marines do their part to keep the Imperium from falling, as I've stated many times in the past... without the Guard the Imperium would simply cease to exist. There is no way around the fact that the Guard are actually the most ground-based important military organization in the Imperium, just as the navy is the most important space-based military organization.

[DarkLink]

Shutup Sangre.
That does not make a general. Being able to participate in combat does not equate to being able to LEAD.


And your point is? Say something that's actually relevant :P

Guardsmen, as an organization, outnumber the Astartes by unfathomable amounts. I'm not talking about a thousand to one, no, that's just the amount of Guardsmen produced by a single planet in a single generation. Assuming it has a smaller population at any rate, some planets have their primary export as human bodies to the war machine, and they will have multiple billions in their numbers-- as their tithe, meaning that this is a regular contribution. The number of exceptional Guard leaders, I would argue, actually outweighs the number of Marines as a whole. These individuals tend to naturally find a place within the command structure of the Guard.

None of that prevents Marines from ever possibly being competent leaders until they have a few centuries under their belt.

In real life, most NCO's have a minimum of a few years of experience. Officers only have a minimum of a year of training or so, I can't think of any military force that requires prior enlisted experience, even the USMC. Whereas every single tactical Marine has decades of experience. There might be the occasional idiot Marine who couldn't lead his way out of a tactical paper bag, but I find that unlikely.

Simply by matter of pure experience, a Marine would have at least a reasonable ability to lead an army in most circumstances. Once again, that doesn't necessarially mean that they would be the best choice, or that they will always be better leaders than an IG commander, simply that most Marines would be able to do a pretty good job at it.



Also your argument is invalid because Sisters of Battle are rubbish. That's why they never get a new Codex.

:confused: Where'd that come from. What's that got to do with anything? I've kinda got to agree with Melissia on your attitude. You're just being combative.

[Cryl]

I've always thought that a marine of any sensible level of experience would be an amazing tactical, situational leader. Any marine with a rank should be able to plan and execute tactical level operations to perfection. Where the marines will lack is at the strategic campaign level, they're not used to doing this kind of planning (in the main) as they simply don't operate in that manner, they're surgical tools and hence although employed strategically, operate tactically.

A senior guards officer would be expected to be able to plan the conquest of a world or sector rather than a single surgical strike to perfection.

I'm not saying that all marines couldn't do it, Dante, Calgar etc probably could but they're 100's of years old. Nor am I saying that every General or Lord Marshall is incapable of planning tactical operations just that they're expected to think in larger terms.

[Melissia]

In the Guard, officers quite frequently raise up from the ranks of the Guardsmen. There ARE some regiments which favor nobility over meritocracy, but those are typically in the minority. As a crude summary of how it works, barring politics... Guardsmen that produce results will become NCOs. NCOs that produce results will become Officers. Officers that produce results will become Generals. Those whom have the skill, leadership ability, and mental capacity to become generals are typically the ones that manage to do just that. It's not really comparible to modern militaries in that aspect, because Imperial society is so dramatically different than ours.

[Aldramelech]

The number of exceptional Guard leaders is tricky though because they all keep dying a lot.

Also your argument is invalid because Sisters of Battle are rubbish. That's why they never get a new Codex.

Ive said it once, and I'll say it again.

You two really should get a room! :D

Blimey, talk about sexual tension..........

[Duke]

Lol aldra! I just can't believe she told him to shut up again.

Duke

[Melissia]

*eyeroll* No sexual tension involved, at least not on my part anyway. I'm merely debating as I always do.

[Nabterayl]

When it comes to marine leadership abilities, I think that the knightly analogy is useful again. As de Charny (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffroi_de_Charny) put it, chivalry encompasses three levels of "skill at arms." These are, from least to most honorable:
Tournaments
Individual combat
War
We often tend to think of the ability to kill someone in combat as a different sort of skill from the ability to lead men in combat in the thick of the fighting, which in turn is a different sort of skill from the ability to lead men at a level where one is not in the thick of the fighting. But that is not how de Charny thought of things - to him, all of those were examples of "skill at arms."

I would suggest that marines have a similar mindset - and probably a similar spectrum of ability. The very best marines, men like Dante and Grimnar, probably are very good generals, even though their positions as chapter masters mean that they would almost never directly command, within their own organizations, a force larger than a reinforced battalion. I imagine they consider it part of their martial identities to make themselves good generals, and their legends give them opportunities to put that learning into practice.

But those are the very best marines, and I imagine that the number of marines who reach that level of "skill at arms" is about as few as the number of knights who ever did - and for the same reasons. Most marines would reach the first and second tiers of de Charny's hierarchy, and the very low reaches of the third tier - I'm sure that your average tactical squad sergeant is a truly excellent squad leader, for instance. But it can take a hundred years to get command of a tactical squad, and another hundred years to get command of a battle company - and even that is a superstar rate of advancement for space marines.

I would not think that a man who has spent the last hundred years thinking like a squad sergeant would automatically make a good company commander. I wouldn't think that a man who has spent the last two hundred years trying to get a company command would automatically make a good regimental commander. A man who has been a battalion commander for a couple hundred years and has had nothing better to do than study successively higher levels of command, with opportunities to practice here and there? Okay, him I might give the benefit of the doubt. But even Dante only assumed command at the request of fellow marines, and he stepped into the shoes not of a general but of a planetary governor. We don't seriously think that Dante didn't have Steel Legion generals handling the operations of the Steel Legion, do we?

[DarkLink]

Well, a guy who has spent a hundred years as a sergeant would almost certainly make a good company commander. He might not make a good general, but only insomuch as his experience is tactical rather than strategic.

In terms of tactics, there is no substitute for practical experience. Officers may order a platoon to assault a position, but the NCO's are the ones who make sure it happens. This also carries over to small scale strategic command. An experienced NCO could look at an entrenched position and think "man, I'd hate to assault that thing from the front, but I see a way that we can flank it".

So experience and tactical ability can carry over to strategic command, to at least a certain degree. I'd say local strategic command would be the limit without some degree of natural leadership and strategic abilities or training. An experienced NCO would probably do a pretty decent job of holding together a company, or potentially even a battalion, in combat operations, simply because he has the experience to know when and where to attack/defend given the local terrain and enemy forces.

If he has to go past the local level, though, he might have a lot of trouble, potentially. He's no longer concerned with how his troops get from point A to B, for example, just that they do, or whether or not they should try to do so. He doesn't have much information or time to make that decision, and a lack of strategic ability could come into play.

So I'd say that, at the least, the average Tactical Marine would have the experience and ability to command potentially up to a battalion on sheer tactical skill and experience alone, depending of course on the circumstances. Above that, and you would need either natural or trained leadership/strategic ability, which a Marine does not necessarily possess.

[Nabterayl]

So experience and tactical ability can carry over to strategic command, to at least a certain degree. I'd say local strategic command would be the limit without some degree of natural leadership and strategic abilities or training.

which a Marine does not necessarily possess.
Fair enough. I'm sure we can quibble about the boundary lines, but as a statement of principle I agree with this.

It occurs to me as well that in some ways marines might not make good leaders even at the tactical level. Imagine a marine sergeant in command of a squad of Guardsmen. He'll be a hugely inspiring figure, almost certainly. But will he ever be "sarge?" Will he be able to bind his squad together so that they aren't just ten men, but a squad? When the stress of battle is greater than his awe-inspiring presence, will he know how to motivate regular human beings to fight on anyway?

I'm convinced that some marine sergeants would be able to meet those challenges. I've never believed that space marines automatically lose their ability to empathize with human beings, or that marines don't need motivation just like any other soldier. But I imagine there would also be plenty of marine sergeants who, through lack of practice or lack of imagination, would flounder when required to be the spiritual glue that holds together a unit of regular human beings.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

There are normal NCO who can't, so it would be a variable scenario not entirly dependent on the marines superhuman self.

[DarkLink]

For the purposes of the argument, I think we're ignoring the possibility that a complete moron managed to make it through his Space Marine training.

It's kind of a statistics thing. For a given sample population of Space Marines, there will be ones with high leadership abilities, and ones with low leadership. However, the average level will be very high, so excluding outliers, a tactical Marine would be able to to take command of most tactical situations.

I think something else that helps, that we haven't really mentioned much, is a combination of the respect and fear guardsmen have for Marines (as mentioned by Nab above), and the Marine's confidence and willingness to be on the front line.

To have a Marine act as a squad Sergeant would probably be like mixing a commissar and the Master Chief together. Everyone looks up to him, but at the same time, they fear him. Regardless, the guardsmen will probably follow the Marine's orders to the end, for one reason or another.

Additionally, from the Marine's point of view, taking command of the "inferior" guardsmen (couldn't think of a better term) would seem natural. Marines have been to hell and back. They have the confidence and assertiveness to be natural leaders.

Ultimately, the real question doesn't so much come down to how well a Marine could give or enforce his own orders. He'd almost certainly make a confident and effective leader. The real question would the the level of mastery of strategy the Marine has. This would really determine how big of a force that Marine could command. A Marine with a lot of strategic skill could command a very large force, while a Marine that primarily relies on tactical ability would be relegated to smaller units.

[Duke]

There are normal NCO who can't, so it would be a variable scenario not entirly dependent on the marines superhuman self.

Though I think Dark Link provided a great argument I really think the meat of it is in M2C's statement.

Obviuosly when we look at the individual level leadership ability is on a spectrum, however a marine would have a naturally higher spectrum range. (for example marine leadership varies from 8-10 while guard leadership could vary from 6- 10) Im not talking stats, just throwing number out there to illustrate. On average in this example the marine would fall in at about a 9 whereas the avg guardsman would fall in at about 8... If someone makes the argument that Average scardy-pants soldiers are better leaders than people who don't have fear then Im going to go nuts.

Duke

[Melissia]

I know that "Scaredy-pants" is made in jest, but you cannot be brave unless you overcome fear. If you don't know fear to begin with, kyou aren't brave, you're just... there. Neither positive nor negative, because you were never challenged to overcome it in the first place and thus you never became stronger for overcoming it.

[Nabterayl]

My point wasn't about leadership ability so much as ... well, leadership. A squad sergeant is supposed to be the moral center of his squad, right? The guy who keeps up the squad spirit, the guy who makes you trust that everything is going to be all right, and the guy who directs the squad in battle. What Gaunt is to the Ghosts, a squad sergeant is supposed to be to his squad, right? And this is true, though it manifests itself in different ways, all through the chain of command, right?

Obviously there are plenty of NCOs and officers who aren't all these things. But my point was that the way a space marine leader fills this role vis a vis space marines is probably different than the way a guardsman leader fills the same role vis a vis guardsmen. For instance:

I doubt that space marine morale is lifted by knowing that the captain twisted a few arms, pulled a few strings, and turned a blind eye to some less-than-regulation activities just so his men could get some booze.
When a space marine's resolve wavers (and it does waver, or chapters wouldn't need chaplains and we wouldn't have renegade marines), I imagine an appeal to his faith and his honor is not a dumb tack to take - he is, after all, a monk and a knight. When a guardsman has had too much, do you appeal to his faith and his honor? I imagine it would be more effective to appeal to his pride and the bond he has with his buddies in arms.
When space marines have been through hell, they don't need to let off steam the same way guardsmen do.
A space marine's resolve is strengthened by a rigidly monastic routine of prayer and asceticism. Imagine what it would do to Guard morale if thirty minutes of every hour off duty was required to be spent in prayer.
These sorts of things are important to "leadership." They have nothing to do with how to maneuver men in the face of the enemy, but they underpin an army's effectiveness in the face of the enemy. Neither space marines nor guard function without all these little things that bind the men to one another. My point was that the way space marines bind each other together is different from the way guardsmen bind each other together. If you place marines in charge of guardsmen, over the long haul, the marines will have to adapt.

I have no doubt that many marines would be capable of adapting to a different leadership style. My point was just that it would be an adaptation, and something the marines would have to consciously make an effort to do, and undoubtedly some marine leaders would fail to adapt, even if they were perfectly effective at binding together units of space marines.

[Duke]

I know that "Scaredy-pants" is made in jest, but you cannot be brave unless you overcome fear. If you don't know fear to begin with, kyou aren't brave, you're just... there. Neither positive nor negative, because you were never challenged to overcome it in the first place and thus you never became stronger for overcoming it.

Wrong, Astartes have overcome fear and are now above it... Remember, young padawan, that marines start out as scared little humans like you and I, they grow to know no fear, so they have overcome it copletly... That argument is old and Im throwing it out. Marines are the perfect example of bravery.

Duke

[Melissia]

Marines use hypnotism, psychotherapy, and other unnatural means to overcome fear. It is not the same as actually facing fear and overcoming it..

[Duke]

My point wasn't about leadership ability so much as ... well, leadership. A squad sergeant is supposed to be the moral center of his squad, right? The guy who keeps up the squad spirit, the guy who makes you trust that everything is going to be all right, and the guy who directs the squad in battle. What Gaunt is to the Ghosts, a squad sergeant is supposed to be to his squad, right? And this is true, though it manifests itself in different ways, all through the chain of command, right?

Obviously there are plenty of NCOs and officers who aren't all these things. But my point was that the way a space marine leader fills this role vis a vis space marines is probably different than the way a guardsman leader fills the same role vis a vis guardsmen. For instance:

I doubt that space marine morale is lifted by knowing that the captain twisted a few arms, pulled a few strings, and turned a blind eye to some less-than-regulation activities just so his men could get some booze.
When a space marine's resolve wavers (and it does waver, or chapters wouldn't need chaplains and we wouldn't have renegade marines), I imagine an appeal to his faith and his honor is not a dumb tack to take - he is, after all, a monk and a knight. When a guardsman has had too much, do you appeal to his faith and his honor? I imagine it would be more effective to appeal to his pride and the bond he has with his buddies in arms.
When space marines have been through hell, they don't need to let off steam the same way guardsmen do.
A space marine's resolve is strengthened by a rigidly monastic routine of prayer and asceticism. Imagine what it would do to Guard morale if thirty minutes of every hour off duty was required to be spent in prayer.
These sorts of things are important to "leadership." They have nothing to do with how to maneuver men in the face of the enemy, but they underpin an army's effectiveness in the face of the enemy. Neither space marines nor guard function without all these little things that bind the men to one another. My point was that the way space marines bind each other together is different from the way guardsmen bind each other together. If you place marines in charge of guardsmen, over the long haul, the marines will have to adapt.

I have no doubt that many marines would be capable of adapting to a different leadership style. My point was just that it would be an adaptation, and something the marines would have to consciously make an effort to do, and undoubtedly some marine leaders would fail to adapt, even if they were perfectly effective at binding together units of space marines.

1. It may not, but when bullets are flying who made the beer run doesn't matter at all, trust me I know.
2. In the current incarnation of the Imperium everybody has their faith as their bastion...or else you get shot by a commisar. plus, if you have read Astartes books they are all about the people they fight with... Astartes or not (though they obviously see other astartes in a different light, much like Knights did.)
3. Astartes train, there is no better way to lead than through example... I want to be lead t war by a guy who blows off steam by training.
4. Morale in war is determined more by psycho-conditioning than anything. The modern military knows it and so would the imperium. I don't care if my men like me under my command, but when the crap hits the fan and their operant conditioning kicks in they will thank me...

Watch we were soldiers and take a look at the First Sgt. he was a badmo-fo who everybody didnt like, he was distant and proud, but when it was time to strap on the boots the men followed him like he was indistructible.... How much better would his aura been if he was physically engineered and had power armour on to make that myth of his invulnerability even better?

Duke

[Nabterayl]

To my knowledge it's never actually specified to what degree space marines overcome their fear through force of will and to what degree they overcome it through psychosurgery. I think that Mel oversteps a bit when she implies that they just have it done for them.

Regardless, I agree with her that the end result of the total process is that space marines have a really hard time empathizing with human psychological frailties. As Gav Thorpe says,


Space Marines forsake their humanity to preserve the humanity of others. This means that they only vaguely remember what it was like to feel the cold, or be upset, or tired, or feel pain, or be scared. They are aware that humans suffer from these frailties, but will often forget that humans are simply not capable of performing deeds that are second nature to their battle-brothers.

In one sense, I'm sure it would be comforting to know that my hypothetical space marine sergeant truly, genuinely, is not afraid of the rampaging carnifex bearing down on our section of trench. In another sense, it would be really disturbing to know that my sergeant often forgets that I myself am quite sensibly terrified.

[Duke]

And that is why an astartes is a better leader. He has overcome fear and doesn't know it... All he knows is how to overcome the enemy.

A leader in battle doesn't have to be liked, he just has to be followed. As I said before I would rather have a fearless leader in the trench that some guy who is pissing his pants next to me.

Astartes are teh asoewme! the end, lol

Duke

[Nabterayl]

1. It may not, but when bullets are flying who made the beer run doesn't matter at all, trust me I know.
2. In the current incarnation of the Imperium everybody has their faith as their bastion...or else you get shot by a commisar. plus, if you have read Astartes books they are all about the people they fight with... Astartes or not (though they obviously see other astartes in a different light, much like Knights did.)
3. Astartes train, there is no better way to lead than through example... I want to be lead t war by a guy who blows off steam by training.
4. Morale in war is determined more by psycho-conditioning than anything. The modern military knows it and so would the imperium. I don't care if my men like me under my command, but when the crap hits the fan and their operant conditioning kicks in they will thank me...

Watch we were soldiers and take a look at the First Sgt. he was a badmo-fo who everybody didnt like, he was distant and proud, but when it was time to strap on the boots the men followed him like he was indistructible.... How much better would his aura been if he was physically engineered and had power armour on to make that myth of his invulnerability even better?


Well, you're the veteran, not I. At the same time, I can't shake the feeling that we aren't quite talking about the same scenarios. Being lead to war by a guy who blows off steam by training and praying, even if he belongs to some freaky sect that's only arguably part of my religion, yes, I can see how that's good for morale. I can see how it would be good for morale to know that he never, ever takes a furlough - that he doesn't even take watches off duty. Having that same guy expect me to never, ever take a furlough, and never spend a spare moment doing anything other than eating, praying, or training, seems like eventually it would be bad for morale. That's what I'm trying to get at - that it seems to me like eventually, an army of non-space marines led by space marines as if they were leading space marines would fall apart. Do you disagree?

[Melissia]

I'd rather have a sane person than someone who's going to get me kiled becuase he doesn't know fear :P

[Duke]

@ nab: I suppose, if he expected non-astartes to perform at an astartes level of combat and combat readiness then your right. However I think astartes know thy the guadrsman don't have the same endurance asthey do... Not only that but because of the short lifespan of guardsmen then I don't think the men will be around enough to have a problem with after action activities

@ Melissa: trust me, if you were in the middle of tit you would want a leader who had as many astartes qualities as possile, you wouldn't want anything less.

[Nabterayl]

However I think astartes know thy the guadrsman don't have the same endurance asthey do... Not only that but because of the short lifespan of guardsmen then I don't think the men will be around enough to have a problem with after action activities
I agree that they know. As long as they're willing to care, I think things should go fine, with the caveat mentioned above about the "local strategic" break.

As for the lifespan of guardsmen, I think that's debatable. There are definitely guardsmen who've served for upwards of ten years. Ten years for regular human beings without a single hour of downtime is more than enough time to turn a fighting unit into a useless mob of basket cases, I'm sure :p

But of course, I've never meant to say that Astartes couldn't lead regular men. Just that accommodating for the different needs of their men is one of the personal challenges that they would have to overcome (well, hopefully they'd overcome it).

[DarkLink]

Marines use hypnotism, psychotherapy, and other unnatural means to overcome fear. It is not the same as actually facing fear and overcoming it..

Unless you're in the Grey Knights, then they pretty much just dangle you in front of Daemonic entities in the Rites of Destitution, and only the ones with the guts and faith to remain pure survive.

Plus, there's the whole recruiting process long before any psycho-therepy and such. Just to be considered for recruitment means you have demonstrated the peak of human courage and tenacity.

Look at the Blood Angels. First, their recruits have to march for three days across a desolate wilderness of canyons and monsters, on their own. Then, they fight each other in gladiatorial games to eliminate the weakest. The few that survive must then stand watch for three days straight, with no rest, and if they fall asleep or get distracted, they're eliminated from the recruitment list. Only then do they even get involved with actual training.

Marines don't get to be Marines just because of psycho conditioning. They get to be Marines because they proved that they're the toughest SOB's (no, not Sisters of Battle) that the Marine recruiters can find. Once they've proven that, then they get all the bio-engineering that makes them a Neophyte.






An Astartes leadership abilities aren't a function of their superhuman abilities, primarily. It is a function of their experience. Marines are extremely experienced. They know the best way to attack and defend and maneuver, otherwise they would have been killed long ago.

[Sangre]

*eyeroll* No sexual tension involved, at least not on my part anyway. I'm merely debating as I always do.

One day I will melt your frosty heart...

[Duke]

@dark link: thank you for solidifying my point. Some poeple seem to forget that marines first go through intense crud before even getting accepted to train... How can anyone call men like that not brave, except unless the same person is just being willfully ignorant

[Melissia]

Or if she just doesn't really like Marines to begin with for the most part. Regardless, I think the point was made that it varies from chapter to chapter, which is fair enough I suppose.

[Duke]

Sure I thi k some chapters would be better at leading guardsman than others. Funnily enough the people I would feel bad for In that situation. Would be the marines, how frustrrating to lead such a clumsy group?

[DarkLink]

Now I have an image of a Black Templar screaming "YOU APES WANT TO LIVE FOREVER" and charging the enemy, then stopping in the middle of the field when he realizes all the guardsmen got gunned down. Then he shrugs and starts charging again.

[Sangre]

Space Marines aren't stupid. They know they have different limitations to humans and I'd imagine that while their commanders aren't themselves tutored in how to command humans, they pick it up quickly.

[Melissia]

THAT all depends on the Guard regiment and even the individual company and squads within the company. Some are much easier to influence than others, depending on the native culture of their planet, but in the end, the Guard is the most varied organization in the Imperium. Yes, that includes Marines.

[Sitnam]

it'll also probasbly depend on the chapter itself. A tactical, pragmatic chapter (Like maybe Ultramarines) would operate much different with Guard then a fanatical, zealous chapter ( Black Templars.)

[Duke]

Now I have an image of a Black Templar screaming "YOU APES WANT TO LIVE FOREVER" and charging the enemy, then stopping in the middle of the field when he realizes all the guardsmen got gunned down. Then he shrugs and starts charging again.

I had that same image the whole time we have had this discussion... That cracks me up so much (especially the shrug part!)

Duke

[DarkLink]

Really, it's the greatest weakness I think a SM leader would have in such a command situation. If he wasn't careful, he'd be like "ok, you two take that bunker, I'll take this one", only to find out that Guard aren't quite the assault specialists Marines are, and have to take both bunkers himself.

[Morgrim]

I'm not sure most standard marines, even squad or company leaders, would be that good at the larger strokes of command of a mixed force. They may be good at 'ok, we need to take that particular section, this is probably the best way to go about it', but that is more 'loan-some-guard' for a single mission.

However, I think Dante effectively running a campain is entirely feasable. The chapter master is used to coordinating marines groups working across multiple battle zones, adjusting numbers and priorities based on changing conditions, assigning who gets what ships in their fleet and making sure that each group has the supplies that they'll need (although the last bit of logistics may be delegated and he just gets the reports). These are the sort of skills most marines don't need, but that generals do. And a very experienced chapter master has the experience and training to pull it off.

There is also the fact that other marines are going to listen to an experienced chapter master, particularly of a first founding legion, while they may not listen to a 'mere human'. I think this would stand even if they were from a different chapter. Considering the number and variety of space marines helping shore up the guardsmen on Armageddon, asking Dante to take command makes sense. I still feel this was an unusual situation, though.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, the fluff is pretty supportive of Marine Captains and Chapter Masters leading very large forces on occasion, beyond the scope of just their Companies and/or Chapters.

[Nabterayl]

Actually, could we collate the circumstances in which that happened? Armageddon, obviously, but Armageddon was also a weird situation, where the ordinary chain of command had broken down. And it just occurred to me - have we seen any crusades led by space marines? I don't mean Black Templar-style we're-always-on-crusade crusades; I mean targeted, large-scale efforts to conquer or re-conquer a specific swath of worlds, like the Damocles Crusade or the Sabbat Worlds Crusade or Macharian's crusade.

[Melissia]

Astartes might take over temporarily if a warmaster is killed (but not as an actual warmaster AFAIK), and certainly a warmaster will listen to their advice (But ONLY as advice-- a warmaster orders the Astartes, not the other way around) when it is offered, but warmasters are generally human.


Keep in mind that having an Astartes as a warmaster brings up VERY bad memories.

[Vlad78]

Astartes might take over temporarily if a warmaster is killed (but not as an actual warmaster AFAIK), and certainly a warmaster will listen to their advice (But ONLY as advice-- a warmaster orders the Astartes, not the other way around) when it is offered, but warmasters are generally human.


Keep in mind that having an Astartes as a warmaster brings up VERY bad memories.

I was under the impression that warmasters in charge of a crusade were "asking" SM to help and follow their battleplan.
"Ordering" an astartes seemed a little bit too much for me.

vlad

[Duke]

The Inquisition can barely order an Astartes Chapter, a Warmaster wouldn't be able to order anything... More like ask really really nicely.

Duke

[Melissia]

You put too much baggage on the term "order". Astartes are soldiers, even if they aren't really human anymore they still have a tendency to obey whoever's in charge unless it's in their best interests otherwise. A Warmaster might phrase his words more politely when ordering an Astartes strike force to attack a specific target, but an order's an order.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, while Astartes won't follow a Warmaster's every whim, it's not like the Warmaster would call up saying "hey, Abbadon is trying to break out of the eye of terror... again... anyways, help us kill him", only to have the Space Marines ignore it.

[Melissia]

I recall when Saint Sabbat died, the ENTIRE contingent of both chapters present in the crusade at the time agreed to retrieve her corpse, of all things, deep in enemy territory in the middle of an overwhelming enemy army.

[Cruor Vault]

I recall when Saint Sabbat died, the ENTIRE contingent of both chapters present in the crusade at the time agreed to retrieve her corpse, of all things, deep in enemy territory in the middle of an overwhelming enemy army.

Though the Saint led her crusade less through absolute imperial authority and more through spiritual leadership. The marines didn't follow her because she was the leader of a crusade, they followed her because she was a Saint.

Marines only follow suggestions from imperial authorities or attach themselves to a crusade after THEY decide to. They answer to no one, even the inquisition has trouble getting them to do things!

[Melissia]

Marines only follow suggestions from imperial authorities or attach themselves to a crusade after THEY decide to. They answer to no one, even the inquisition has trouble getting them to do things!But not much. The majority of chapters of Space Marines obey the Inquisition if they know what's good for them, with only a tiny few being able to openly flaunt the Inquisition-- and even the Space Wolves have favored Inquisitors that they occasionally work with. But let's not get into THAT debate gain.

[Nabterayl]

Bear in mind also that a crusade is a much bigger deal than your average invasion. Vraks was chosen by Forge World to represent a "typical" full-scale action by the Imperium, and it involved only thirty-four Imperial Guard regiments with assistance from five chapters of space marines.

If I recall correctly, during the Sabbat Worlds Crusade, the Imperial Guard landed one billion guardsmen on Caligula alone.

If a chapter commits to a crusade, odds are that the chapter master is keenly aware that a momentous event is taking place. So while I'm sure his marines would obey the chapter master if his orders contradicted those of the warmaster, I imagine that in practice, the chapter master agrees to place his men at the warmaster's disposal.

[Duke]

I think nab and others are getting more to the reality of the situation...

When a warmaster asks Astartes to join in an action he knows that he better have a good reason... If he has a good reason the Astartes will generally help. Assuming they show up it is because they agree with what the warmaster is trying to accomlish, as such they will generally follow directives.

Why go to a warzone when your not going to follow orders anyways... You don't follow orders if you disagree with the commander, and for astartes, why even show up if you don't agree with the commander?

Still, warmasters ask nicely.

duke

[Melissia]

And so if a chapter master assigns a company to a crusade, they are under the warmaster's orders. Few, if any warmasters are stupid enough to waste such vital resources-- rare is the warmaster whom is appointed without good strategic and tactical sense, especially in what is generally considered Grand Strategy. That is to say...

Grand strategy: Succeeding in the crusade
Operational strategy: Conquering one world
Battlefield Tactics: Winning one battle

Warmasters are concerned with grand strategy. While one can use a contingent of Marines to win most battles, they are a rare and difficult to replace resource, and so it's best to use them wisely, and in ways which best suit their capabilities. Even if that victory wins a world, you still have a hundred more to win.

[blueshift]

Melissia, for someone who dislikes space marines lore so much, you sure do know a lot about them. :P

Thats like me reading twilight and remembering every angsty moment.

[Gotthammer]

I'm 99% positive* this is how it would go:

The scene: High atop the towering spire of the planet's centeral hive an Imperial Warmaster waits pensively. He can only hope that his astropathic pettitons to the nearby Space Marines have been heard... and acknowledged...

Warmaster Commandodius (WMC): Every moment I pray to the glorious Emperor on Earth that the forces I requested will arrive...
*Suddenly a massive figure appears in silhouette in the war-room's vaulted, multi-butressed, doorway*
Space Marine Captain (SMC): Warmaster Commandodius, I am Captain Dudicus of The Emperor's Face Destroyers, here to assist you!
WMC: Excellent! Praise the Emperor! I...
SMC: PRAISE THE EMPEROR!
WMC: ...
WMC: Quite... well I have three objectives I need you choose from, the others I will...
SMC: PRAISE THE EMPEROR!!!
WMC: Are you quite finished?
SMC: Sorry.
WMC: As I was saying - the others I will assign to units of Stormtroopers. The options are:
A) Secure the landing zone for the troop transports
B) Destroy the enemy defence silos
C) Kidnap the enemy generals for vital intelligence to be extracted by our Inquisitive allies (heh heh heh).
SMC: I don't get that last one.
WMC: It's a play on words.
SMC: Uh huh...
WMC: Inquisitve.
SMC: Still not with you.
WMC: Inquisitvie people who are our allies.
SMC: Uhh...
WMC: The Inquisitors! The Inquisition!
SMC: Oh, those guys!
WMC: Yes those guys! Who else could I have meant!?
SMC: Well Segeant Mighticus is always asking questions about stuff...
WMC: Emperor give me strength...
SMC: That's why they made him Sergeant!
WMC: Great. Fabulous even. So what'll it be? A - Secure the landing zone, B - Destroy the defence lasers, C - Kidnap the generals?
SMC: I choose D! All of the above!!! RAAAAARGH!!! *leaps through wall and onto Thunderhawk flying past*

30 minutes later...

*The Captain returns, his armour blackend by the combat he has seen. His face bloodied, but his flinty eyes stare out unbowed and unbroken beneath stony brows of knotted iron*

SMC: All missions completed Warmaster!
WMC: All? All three?!
SMC: Yes - with X-TREEEME predjudice!
WMC: How did they fare?
SMC: The landing zone was tricky, but then we managed to kidnap it in the end.
WMC: Excellent! That really is wait what?
SMC: We had Techmarine Intelligus bring in some bulldozers and shovels and we loaded about the first two metres of topsoil into our thunderhawks. We had to shoot down a large number of landing craft that seemed very unhappy with us though.
WMC: You filled your Thunderhawks with dirt?
SMC: Came in great use for the second part.
WMC: I don't believe this...
SMC: Neither did the soldiers of the defence lasers! We came in low and fast, then opened the landing ramps to rain the soil around the laser's emplacements. Quickly we deployed via jump pack, shovels and mattocks in hand. With the Emperor's diving guidence we had established a new ring of siegeworks that the Iwould impress Dorn himself if I do say so myself.
WMC: I'm afraid to ask what happened next.
SMC: Do not fear Warmaster, for though it is a tale of unbelievable excitement it ends in glory!
WMC: Oh dear...
SMC: We took our mighty Thunderhawks to the Enemy's command centre, we attacked without mercy - their puny attacks mere rain on our armour. Quickly we found the Generals, cowering in their puny command centre. We announced we had come to Destroy them as had been ordered by Warmaster Commandodius. Foolishly they questioned that we would not take them prisoner. We replied with bolter shells and promethium. They seemed relieved - Chaplain Tourreticlese said it would be their relief at being released from their heretical ways.
Quickly we made our escape to report our glorious truimph!
WMC: Emperor wept...
SMC: PRAISE THE EMPEROR!!!!!!!


* Ok, 100%

[Duke]

@Gotthammer: That was perhaps the most insulting description of Astartes and Spec. Ops. I have ever seen.... and I LAUGHED MY TRASH OFF THE WHOLE TIME.

Its funny, but I laughed because its also true!

Duke

[Gotthammer]

Glad you liked it :) If only I had access to an animation studio...

[Duke]

I don't know why, but everytime I read the SMC I think of Kronk from "The Emperors New Groove."

[Gotthammer]

That may not be entirely coincidental... ;)

[Whoop!]

because if he see you, you are dead.

I couldn't have said it better myself.