How to bring the fight back to 6th?

[TSINI]

I was reading a few gripes about how nerfed the classic assault armies have become.

Nids and Orks in particular. They just can't hold themselves in a fight, massive hordes being beaten in combat by small squads of marines.

I just wondered, looking at the 6th edition rules, and the newer 6th ed codices, what would have to be done to the classic assault grunt to allow it to actually be deadly in assault? Strength boosts? Stat boosts in general? AP# weapons?

Take a hormagaunt for example, he's cheap, has a low armour save, available in large numbers. But in an assault, is he really that much scarier than a guardsman? Re-rolling 1s to hit is nice, but essentially his 'punch' is the same. And a guardsman can use his punch at range 24".

TSINI

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Have to say, a pal at my local store plays Tyranids and only Tyranids, and while he's had some bad times getting shot to pieces before reaching assault (that time against the two Thunderfire Cannon was especially harsh), his stuff never has any problems eating its way through almost anything they end up in combat with.

[daboarder]

Yeah, they may only kill two marines a round, but there is usually enough gants left at the end to eat another squad

[Mr Mystery]

I was reading a few gripes about how nerfed the classic assault armies have become.

Nids and Orks in particular. They just can't hold themselves in a fight, massive hordes being beaten in combat by small squads of marines.

I just wondered, looking at the 6th edition rules, and the newer 6th ed codices, what would have to be done to the classic assault grunt to allow it to actually be deadly in assault? Strength boosts? Stat boosts in general? AP# weapons?

Take a hormagaunt for example, he's cheap, has a low armour save, available in large numbers. But in an assault, is he really that much scarier than a guardsman? Re-rolling 1s to hit is nice, but essentially his 'punch' is the same. And a guardsman can use his punch at range 24".

TSINI

What needs to be done?

Well. That's easy. Those whining need to belt up and apply some tactics, and a little less hyperbole. Huge mobs of Orks being beaten by small squads of Marines? Utter bollocks, barring unfortunate dice.

Gaunts? Traditionally there to interfere and get in the way than do serious amounts of damage.

6th Ed increased charge range on average, and introduced overwatch. That's it. Assaults now just need a little more planning than 'LOLOCOASTERRHINORUSHIRGENIUS'. And rightfully so.

[Kamin_Majere]

Assault units tend to still wreck face pretty well, it's the Force Organization Chart that is messing them up in most cases I think. If they would limit the squad size to say 20 and make each troop choice 1-3 units of hormagaunts or slugga boyz I think a lot of the issues would go away.

The problem comes from the old notion (started in 3rd edition) where every one got 6 troops choices and "horde" armies just got slightly larger squad sizes (usually 20 models) they have upped that number to 32 over the years since, but that still doesn't really make up much as a horde should have target saturation... not just more bodies.

IG have this down with the platoons... they can field so many units that in a horde style army its hard to kill them all even though they fall over against a stiff breeze, where as the true horde armies have exactly as many troop choices as marines or eldar or necrons or tau, that focusing on them 1 on 1 the shooting armies tend to do remarkably well (with the exception of eldar guardians that have the range of spit balls)

[rle68]

""""Huge mobs of Orks being beaten by small squads of Marines? Utter bollocks, barring unfortunate dice.""""

Really? you actually said that? you bring you 30 man ork mob ill bring my 10 man wolfguard or grey hunter units and well see who yells bollocks.. wolves eat orks all day every day. il even be kind and leave the power weapons at home

[Dave Mcturk]

imo.. overwatch fire is a good idea taken too far... shots rounded down to 1/3 total mb ... with all troops minus 2 to BS [but 6's always hit] and no 'illegal' flamer shots [ie ok if they have clear line of fire] and a 12" maximum shot range from the nominated charge target figure. no reason why trained troops shouldnt be better at overwatch... mb even a chance to overwatch at full BS if elite and not fired in own phase... but a metre spread out unit with three flamers all firing at a flank attack is a bit crazy...

[Mr Mystery]

""""Huge mobs of Orks being beaten by small squads of Marines? Utter bollocks, barring unfortunate dice.""""

Really? you actually said that? you bring you 30 man ork mob ill bring my 10 man wolfguard or grey hunter units and well see who yells bollocks.. wolves eat orks all day every day. il even be kind and leave the power weapons at home

Didn't realise 10 man squads counted as small. What with that generally being the biggest size they can be. Silly me.

And you also went straight to two units noted for HTH prowess. Way to clumsily stack the deck.... Seriously. Try working on your debate skills....

[Mr Mystery]

No, I mentioned small units of Marines, which I would define, given the range of 5-10 members, as either 5 or 6 man squads.

Original quote is from the OP, who mentions some claiming 'massiv mobs taken out by small units of marines'.

I repeated the use of the terms massive and small respectively.

Also, in your further (erroneous) example, whilst it's been a while since I looked over the Ork and Space Wolf codecies (I play neither) if I'm right in thinking, a Slugga Boy is....9 points, and even a Grey Hunter is just about double that...

[eldargal]

Yes, if the maximum squad size for a unit of Marines is ten then a small unit has to mean less than that. A mob of 30 boys with a nob is 190 points. For the same money you get a single tactical squad with an extra weapon. You will lose some Orks to shooting but you will have enough to hit the marine squad hard.

[Learn2Eel]

No, I mentioned small units of Marines, which I would define, given the range of 5-10 members, as either 5 or 6 man squads.

Original quote is from the OP, who mentions some claiming 'massiv mobs taken out by small units of marines'.

I repeated the use of the terms massive and small respectively.

Also, in your further (erroneous) example, whilst it's been a while since I looked over the Ork and Space Wolf codecies (I play neither) if I'm right in thinking, a Slugga Boy is....9 points, and even a Grey Hunter is just about double that...

6 points actually.

And actually, doing the numbers, if 30 Ork Boyz hit a 10-strong Grey Hunter unit of roughly equivalent points - i.e. mark of the wulfen and a power sword - then with Counter Attack, the Grey Hunters would put out around thirty to thirty five attacks (Mark of the Wulfen), of which half would hit - so we will say 16 - and a further half would wound, leading to around seven or eight dead Orks. That would leave twenty three or so Slugga Boyz fighting back ninety-two attacks, half would hit - so forty-six - and half would wound - twenty three - which assuming average saving rolls would see about eight Grey Hunters die.
Even with shooting thrown in (which opens up things like cover saves, line of sight, etc) it is definitely no guarantee the Grey Hunters would come out on top. Plus you would then have to account for the Ork shooting...

[SotonShades]

removed

Please tone down the aggression in your reply. There is absolutely no need for it in a simple debate about the relative merits and demerits of the Assault Phase of a wargame. I would also recommend that you improve your own reading comprehension skills before getting involved with a debate; I certainly agree with you that a 10-man Wolf Guard or Grey Hunter squad will muller a Mob of 30 Ork boys, perhaps being a relatively equal fight if they were 'Ard boys and had a 4+ save. However, a small Wolf Guard or Grey Hunter pack will still pose a significant threat to a mob of 30 boys, even discounting a few turns of shooting as the Orks close and Overwatch, which doesn't really reflect the nature of the game. It is a classic example of Games Workshop's approach to fixing rules issues; overcompensate the original issue, in this case assault being rather more effective than shooting, and effectively nullify certain types of army build.

Now, to the OP's point, what needs to be done? I play Orks myself, and regularly play against Tyranids. My initial response would be that most games of 40k do not use enough cover to keep the game balanced. There are far too many reasons to list here, but I feel GW is to blame. Ironically it is because they have produced too many nice terrain kits.

Back when I started playing 40k, there were loads of articles in White Dwarf, rulebooks and even codices giving you advice on how to build terrain; from simple hills and cardboard buildings to vast, army specific building complexes. I even still have a couple of the books GW published on the subject. Stores always had loads of tables with plenty of hand made scenery, giving great examples of what could be done cheaply and, better still, the people who had made it were right there in store, so could help you make your own. Now, GW's policy is to only use their own kits in store (which I guess I understand, to a point) and most hobbyists cannot afford to kit out whole tables like that. The staff are actively discouraged from advising people how to build their own terrain and often don't actually have the knowledge themselves, much less of local suppliers from whom you could purchase the necessary equipment and materials. Add to that the budgets for terrain being slashed and the staffers' time being filled with additional training and harsher sales targets and they have no real way to supplement the store's terrain.

White Dwarf and the rulebooks have also slowly reduce the amount of scenery in battle shots. It certainly makes it easier to photograph the models in the games or set-ups, but further compounds the belief that a lower amount of terrain is required. This has lead to a whole generation of gamers playing on very sparse battlefields. Combining this with the buffs from 6th Ed to shooting has made assault oriented armies extremely difficult to play in most cases. Throw some more LoS blocking terrain and a few more cover saves on the table, and the issue helps solve itself for very balanced games.

One final point, more to rle68 than anyone else. If you want your point to come across, please improve your spelling and use of punctuation. I fully realise that the internet is not a place where correct grammar is required 100% of the time, but a little attention will make your argument more clearly understood, harder to misinterpret and less likely to receive backlash from further posters.

[deinol]

The funny thing about sparse terrain is that the rule book says you should have 6-18 pieces of terrain on a standard field. The average 12 is a lot more than I see most people play with.

The main thing Orks and Tyranids need are 6th edition codices.

[chicop76]

I don't have problems assaulting with my nids. You still need shooting and disruptive units to tone done your units getting shot at.

With orcs I can't say. I can only speak for nids.

That being said I think it is a waste of time running genestealers unless you have a broodlord and the unit either have invisibility or endurance on it.

[Caitsidhe]

Is assault still possible? Yes. Are purely assault armies still viable? Doubtful, at least in my opinion. For better or for worst, this is the Edition of the gun. I still get in close combat all the time, but I will admit it is generally with a Daemon Prince (FMC variety). On rare occassion someone else manages to assault my guys or I go in myself. That kind of fight is normally what happens when someone is desperate.

[Mr Mystery]

I'm not sure it's even all that bad for assault armies.

They were spoiled rotten in 3rd, 4th and 5th, and mostly shooty armies struggled.

The boot isn't exactly on the other foot now, but you do have to sing for your supper.

[Lexington]

6th Ed increased charge range on average, and introduced overwatch. That's it.
Well, not quite - it also introduced and favors Flyers, which are usually immune to assault, made transports less survivable, and for the small increase in "average" charge range, introduced quite a bit of uncertainty to charging. This is an edition where shooting's definitely been favored over assault, especially since (as others have noted) far too many people play without the right amount of LoS-blocking terrain.

Overall, this isn't necessarily a bad thing, at least to my eye. Ranged weaponry should have a noted advantage over assault, and every army should have a decent shooting game. The problem is that several of the armies aren't currently set up to support this POV. Orks make out better than most in this, since they've got a surprising amount of firepower, but I feel bad for 'Nids, Templars and other HtH-oriented forces. Hopefully new Codexes will help out with this.


They were spoiled rotten in 3rd, 4th and 5th, and mostly shooty armies struggled.
3rd, yes - it was the age of the Rhino Rush.

4th, not really. The pendulum swung back to a point where transport vehicles were (with the late exception of Eldar skimmers) damn near unusable. Basalisk-heavy Iron Warrior armies dominated.

5th, definitely not. You had your exceptions, mainly in wound allocation-abusing units like Nob Bikers and Paladins, but it was the short-ranged shooty armies w/ assault cleanup capabilities - ie. Space Wolves and Grey Knights - that were the armies to beat at the time. Fairly decent balance if anything.

[Kevlarshark]

Most armies that beat face in CC in 5th will still beat face in CC in 6th.

It is not that the assault phase is less effective now...its that the shooting phase has been made more effective.

Secondary issue is that a Heavy CC army cannot dominate the game anymore. With fortifications,flyers and overwatch there are things that prevent a combat army from being the swiss army knife - able to kill every thing.
Now there are options for less combat oriented forces to channel/slow down/blast from the air - A paper for the CC rock.

[Charistoph]

There were several changes in 5th to 6th that rather balanced things out a bit. Shooting isn't necessarily stronger (aside from Flyers, obviously), just more available.

Assault gained a possibly longer charge range, but has to face Overwatch. Fearless no longer has No Retreat!, causing models dying off only because they lost a fight. Assault is still the only way to make a unit disappear while only causing 1 Wound to it.

Shooting gained Overwatch and Cover Saves were reduced for many terrain types, but was also added to Night Fighting, which can be available every game. You still have to make 25% casualties to have a chance to make them run. They can recover a lot easier than 5th, though. Introduction of the Snap Shot made some shooting possible, though still unlikely to cause a hit.

Edit: I was reminded about Fleet which is the only real nut punch to Assault without an added benefit.

[magickbk]

For many years, I've played with primarily shooting armies (Dark Angels, Tau, Imperial Guard), and I am now trying to build an assault-oriented army for variety and challenge. These are the issues I've seen:

Terrain - As has been mentioned, a lack of sufficient terrain is a huge issue, but even more so are the changes to LOS in regards to terrain. Many pieces that used to block sight no longer do, or are now to short to be effective given larger and taller models. While my main opponent is away on vacation, I am replacing a few pieces from my table that have served well for many editions, but no longer work the way they were intended.

Scoring Units - A huge flaw is that many armies have to choose assault units from their Troops choices, which means those units will not be likely to be going for objectives, since there are frequently other units better able to hold them. This need both reduces the number of assault units in the army due to needing some units to take objectives, and also makes it more difficult for those armies to take objectives, as they have fewer units to do it. These armies become a gamble between taking 1-2 objectives and trying to deny the rest.

Overwatch - It hurts lightly armored assault units, and frequently one of the balancing factors for assault-heavy units has been lighter armor.

Sweeping Advance - Back in the day, sweeping advances made it near impossible to keep an assault unit out of combat long enough to destroy it. It was too powerful, so it was removed, but now it becomes difficult to keep an assault unit in combat during enough of the game to make it effective.

Transports - Except for Land Raiders and Stormravens, the transports that you can assault out of are so fragile that they may be more of a death trap than staying on foot, depending on the aforementioned terrain.

How would I fix all this? There is no easy, one-stop fix. I think for the next edition, I would modify Overwatch so that you can't fire if the assaulting unit is within half the distance rolled on the charge dice, and I would allow consolidation after destroying an enemy to initiate combat with a new unit, with the assaulting unit not gaining any charge bonuses and the defending unit not firing overwatch, which was allowed back in 3rd edition.

[rle68]

Please tone down the aggression in your reply. There is absolutely no need for it in a simple debate about the relative merits and demerits of the Assault Phase of a wargame. I would also recommend that you improve your own reading comprehension skills before getting involved with a debate; I certainly agree with you that a 10-man Wolf Guard or Grey Hunter squad will muller a Mob of 30 Ork boys, perhaps being a relatively equal fight if they were 'Ard boys and had a 4+ save. However, a small Wolf Guard or Grey Hunter pack will still pose a significant threat to a mob of 30 boys, even discounting a few turns of shooting as the Orks close and Overwatch, which doesn't really reflect the nature of the game. It is a classic example of Games Workshop's approach to fixing rules issues; overcompensate the original issue, in this case assault being rather more effective than shooting, and effectively nullify certain types of army build.

Now, to the OP's point, what needs to be done? I play Orks myself, and regularly play against Tyranids. My initial response would be that most games of 40k do not use enough cover to keep the game balanced. There are far too many reasons to list here, but I feel GW is to blame. Ironically it is because they have produced too many nice terrain kits.

Back when I started playing 40k, there were loads of articles in White Dwarf, rulebooks and even codices giving you advice on how to build terrain; from simple hills and cardboard buildings to vast, army specific building complexes. I even still have a couple of the books GW published on the subject. Stores always had loads of tables with plenty of hand made scenery, giving great examples of what could be done cheaply and, better still, the people who had made it were right there in store, so could help you make your own. Now, GW's policy is to only use their own kits in store (which I guess I understand, to a point) and most hobbyists cannot afford to kit out whole tables like that. The staff are actively discouraged from advising people how to build their own terrain and often don't actually have the knowledge themselves, much less of local suppliers from whom you could purchase the necessary equipment and materials. Add to that the budgets for terrain being slashed and the staffers' time being filled with additional training and harsher sales targets and they have no real way to supplement the store's terrain.

White Dwarf and the rulebooks have also slowly reduce the amount of scenery in battle shots. It certainly makes it easier to photograph the models in the games or set-ups, but further compounds the belief that a lower amount of terrain is required. This has lead to a whole generation of gamers playing on very sparse battlefields. Combining this with the buffs from 6th Ed to shooting has made assault oriented armies extremely difficult to play in most cases. Throw some more LoS blocking terrain and a few more cover saves on the table, and the issue helps solve itself for very balanced games.

One final point, more to rle68 than anyone else. If you want your point to come across, please improve your spelling and use of punctuation. I fully realise that the internet is not a place where correct grammar is required 100% of the time, but a little attention will make your argument more clearly understood, harder to misinterpret and less likely to receive backlash from further posters.

"""""""""And actually, doing the numbers, if 30 Ork Boyz hit a 10-strong Grey Hunter unit of roughly equivalent points - i.e. mark of the wulfen and a power sword - then with Counter Attack, the Grey Hunters would put out around thirty to thirty five attacks (Mark of the Wulfen), of which half would hit - so we will say 16 """"""""""""

here is the problem with people who do magical number crunches they dont know the details here..all space wolf players, correction any good space wolf player isnt going to let them be charged by a 30 man mob, but i digress... you factor in things like wolf tail talismans (which isnt part of a normal makeup yes) that let you hit on 3's and the numbers change... you mentioned power weapons, no one takes power weapons they take frost blades if possible depends on whether there is a wolfguard attached which usually there is which make it easier to wound in fact killing more of them outright.. again the numbers change dramatically

the basis of this entire point ws a comment made that is was "bollocks" for space marines to kill a huge ork mob ..my response was to him a point that from a known fact i can say that comment is wrong...

in 5th i pulled off a perfectly executed multi assault with 15 grey hunters and Ragnar and wiped out over 3 squads of 60 plus orks in total in 1 turn... can it happen now... not sure dont think the multi assault transfer wounds and losses like it did

[Learn2Eel]

I'm not stupid and I know to factor in shooting, but the example specifically quoted was thirty Ork boyz getting into combat with a squad of Space Marines. Few things in the game will stand up to that many attacks, which is probably the point; assault isn't dead, as it can still thrash armies that don't deal with it at range. The real problem is getting into assault.

[rle68]

i didnt say you were stupid.. i simply said number crunches are not the best indicators...

[Charistoph]

Terrain -

2 things. First is you and opponent are in control of Terrain. You can make it a fight on a desert mesa or the nastiest city fight.

The second applies to these as well:

Scoring Units -
Sweeping Advance -

These are the same as they were in 5th. Aside from Fortifications and the optional Mysterious Terrain/Objectives, Terrain falls here, too. So rather pointless other than nostalgia.


Overwatch - It hurts lightly armored assault units, and frequently one of the balancing factors for assault-heavy units has been lighter armor.

Yeah, Overwatch hurts a little (aside from Template happy units like Flamers and Burna Boys), but well balanced by being as accurate as a cross-eyed Ork. Your suggestion about giving it a minimum distance does have merit, though I would probably hold it to a set distance like 6", but that's just me.


Transports - Except for Land Raiders and Stormravens, the transports that you can assault out of are so fragile that they may be more of a death trap than staying on foot, depending on the aforementioned terrain.


Transports are not death traps (see 4th for that), but they aren't mobile bunkers, either like in 5th. Hull Points were a good idea, in my opinion, though poorly implemented. Glancing is a poor word for something that shakes your vehicle apart but does nothing else.

My preference would be to make a Glance roll on the table, but not necessarily lose a Hull Point. Glances wouldn't kill a vehicle outright, but may cause it to lose Hull Points. Pens always kill a Hull Point, and change the 'May' to the 'Explodes' result.

Glances then can still kill a vehicle, but a bit harder to do, while Penetrations become more likely to wreck the vehicle.

[Learn2Eel]

i didnt say you were stupid.. i simply said number crunches are not the best indicators...

I know. But when it all comes down to it, doing math averages now helps one out in game when knowing those averages can actually sway a tactical decision. I.e. would I feel safe with just a brood of Termagants charging in, confident that they will survive only one round so that I can shoot and charge that unit again on my next turn? If I have six engaged with ten Tactical Marines, they should statistically survive and stay put while in Synapse range. Dice rolls sway everything but it does help.

[magickbk]

These are the same as they were in 5th. Aside from Fortifications and the optional Mysterious Terrain/Objectives, Terrain falls here, too. So rather pointless other than nostalgia.

I've been around a long time, so I have a way of looking at changes not just in terms of edition-to-edition, but also how it compares to all previous editions. The designers currently seem to have a sense of nostalgia, as they are bringing back old rules and elements to flavor the current game. The FOC apart from Allies and Fortifications has not changed since 3rd edition, yet objectives, scoring units, missions, and many other rules have changed. Looking at these changes long-term isn't nostalgia however, as that implies that I am overly sentimental for that era. It is simply the prior history and evolution of the rules regardless of the fact that it is older than the previous edition. It is valid to look at changes to one game element against all prior editions since that one element was added.


Transports are not death traps (see 4th for that), but they aren't mobile bunkers, either like in 5th.

I was specifically referring to vehicles which can be assaulted out of excluding the ones mentioned, which leaves Ork Trukks, Raiders, and the like, which although not as dangerous as 4th, are still not very good protection for the units in question.

[Mr Mystery]

number 1 before you go jump on my case.. remember i responded to his smarmy comments i didnt initiate the comment.. so if that offends you ? too bad

and lastly this isnt comp 101 and if a mistyped word comes through when on my phone well thats just how it is...

"""""""""And actually, doing the numbers, if 30 Ork Boyz hit a 10-strong Grey Hunter unit of roughly equivalent points - i.e. mark of the wulfen and a power sword - then with Counter Attack, the Grey Hunters would put out around thirty to thirty five attacks (Mark of the Wulfen), of which half would hit - so we will say 16 """"""""""""

here is the problem with people who do magical number crunches they dont know the details here..all space wolf players, correction any good space wolf player isnt going to let them be charged by a 30 man mob, but i digress... you factor in things like wolf tail talismans (which isnt part of a normal makeup yes) that let you hit on 3's and the numbers change... you mentioned power weapons, no one takes power weapons they take frost blades if possible depends on whether there is a wolfguard attached which usually there is which make it easier to wound in fact killing more of them outright.. again the numbers change dramatically

the basis of this entire point ws a comment made that is was "bollocks" for space marines to kill a huge ork mob ..my response was to him a point that from a known fact i can say that comment is wrong...

in 5th i pulled off a perfectly executed multi assault with 15 grey hunters and Ragnar and wiped out over 3 squads of 60 plus orks in total in 1 turn... can it happen now... not sure dont think the multi assault transfer wounds and losses like it did

And again you miss salient point.

OP quoted it as 'small units of Marines and massive units.

Whereas you presented a powerful, maxed out unit as a shonky rebuttal, and chucked in some (inaccurate) slurs against my character.

Given the unit you posted (as continue to increase the points cost thereof) is kind of expected to job a horde. That's why take them yes?

Let's do a points crunch shall we, just for sake of additional comparison....

30 Ork Slugga Boyz with a big hard Nob (fnarr)....210 all in, including a Power Klaw and a Bosspole. And let's also give them Frag Stikk Bomms, because there is no sense in not taking them. Total of 240.

10 Grey Hunters, as are? 150. And the Boyz will kick their pointy canines down their throat in HTH...

10 Wolf Guard - 180. Given the higher number of attacks? Looking a bit dicier for the Boyz, but still far from insurmountable yes?

But, to be a small unit? Comprising 5-6 models in each Marine unit? Someone's going home in an ambulance, and its not the Orks!

Reading comprehension. It's a good thing!

[chicop76]

For many years, I've played with primarily shooting armies (Dark Angels, Tau, Imperial Guard), and I am now trying to build an assault-oriented army for variety and challenge. These are the issues I've seen:

Terrain - As has been mentioned, a lack of sufficient terrain is a huge issue, but even more so are the changes to LOS in regards to terrain. Many pieces that used to block sight no longer do, or are now to short to be effective given larger and taller models. While my main opponent is away on vacation, I am replacing a few pieces from my table that have served well for many editions, but no longer work the way they were intended.

Scoring Units - A huge flaw is that many armies have to choose assault units from their Troops choices, which means those units will not be likely to be going for objectives, since there are frequently other units better able to hold them. This need both reduces the number of assault units in the army due to needing some units to take objectives, and also makes it more difficult for those armies to take objectives, as they have fewer units to do it. These armies become a gamble between taking 1-2 objectives and trying to deny the rest.

Overwatch - It hurts lightly armored assault units, and frequently one of the balancing factors for assault-heavy units has been lighter armor.

Sweeping Advance - Back in the day, sweeping advances made it near impossible to keep an assault unit out of combat long enough to destroy it. It was too powerful, so it was removed, but now it becomes difficult to keep an assault unit in combat during enough of the game to make it effective.

Transports - Except for Land Raiders and Stormravens, the transports that you can assault out of are so fragile that they may be more of a death trap than staying on foot, depending on the aforementioned terrain.

How would I fix all this? There is no easy, one-stop fix. I think for the next edition, I would modify Overwatch so that you can't fire if the assaulting unit is within half the distance rolled on the charge dice, and I would allow consolidation after destroying an enemy to initiate combat with a new unit, with the assaulting unit not gaining any charge bonuses and the
defending unit not firing overwatch, which was allowed back in 3rd edition.

I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. I played back at the start of 3rd and constanly rotate my armies. I can say I can be playing Tau, Nids, or Daemons for the most part. One shooty army and two assault armies. I do really well with Edaemons and my nids can be down right over bearing. Tau and Daemons I have to at least think on tactics, while my 9 year old kid when tought how to run my nids can easily win games.

1. Terrain: it is a problem. The more there is the better possible chance that an assault army can win. How ever I start designing my armies with no terrain in mind. With this thought process you will do well.

Let's take nids for example. You have acess to biomancy and telepathy galore. With telepathy you have invisibility that provides +4 cover saves in the open, also with biomancy you can have +5 feel no pain and a chance to get wounds back on a +5 roll at the end of turn. I typically have my two trygons and my swarmlord/ hive tyrant with guard in front of my army and with all the psychic rolls they tend to have endurance on all 3 units. Next I have my whole army behind them with a few invisibility rolls. Either I have on the most part a +5 cover save or a key unit like a tervigon with a +2 cover save. My primes can out pace my army thanks to fleet which allows them to re roll on run.

My 3 tervigons stay back with cover saves and spawn more guys who gets cover saves due to the big guy screen. The only thing that really hurt the gaunts is focus fire. I tried to fit venomthorpes in, but they really don't work.

Wayyy in the back I have my biovores blasting strength 4 large pie plates at the enemy.

Also I run a doom with biomancy(chance for iron arm) to deep strike in and cause disruption.

The pacing of my army usually allows for turn 3 assaulting. The endurance is really helpful to keep my stuff alive long enough for my army to get across the field.

I also out flank with a tervigon and it's been working really well. It can't spawn the turn it comes in, but helps me to claim objectives from an unexpected vantage point.

I am still torn between switching back and forth between hive guard and zonathorpes. The zonathorpes can easily double as a master 1 psyker with 2 more powers rather easily. Also puppet master is rather nice. It allows me to like say melta the other sides tank.

Anyway I use my MC's as terrain. If it is a big issue take a fortess of redeption and drop it in the middle as a fortification.

2. Scoring unit isn't an issue with nids. Nids can have possibly put out 5 scoring units a turn on top of having possibly 9 on the board due to 2/3s of the missions. Anyway nids usually do not get fast attack and tend to max out on troops and sometimes heavy support. It's really an non issue.

Daemons is an issue. However I never lost with them simply do to the fact I tend to wipe you out around turn 3 and 4. I get a portalglypgh to make an attempt to claim an objective if I do not get riftbringer. Riftbringer on a bloodthirster is typically game over.

Orcs I still don't see them having problems due to the differant units they have. Good luck getting rid of all the scoring units.

3. Overwatch is easily dealth with Nids. If I have 2 gaunts in one sqaud and 15 gaunts in another I assault with the 2 gaunts spending your over watch or tying up the over watch unit. Than I assault with my 15 gaunts wth no fear of over watch. I advance slowly with my nids so I can have multiple assaults going on. It makes over watch an non issue.

With daemons I have enough buffs to deal with over watch. Invisibilty shuts down overwatch completely and hounds tie up units for my princes , greaer daemons, or daemonettes to eat. I don't really fear overwatch on the hounds thanks to a +3 invulnerable save and +5 feel no pain, or invisibilty on them.

Overwatch is nice, but unless you are tau it's not major assault deterent.

4. Transports: what assault armies have this. What is a transport I say. The way you can only cover 24" with a transport makes it hard to rely on. Also I blast tranports whenever I see them. Unless Orcs are in 14 armour open topped trans ports I really don't see the point.

However Tau and Eldar, Guard and shooting armies transports are great. However even dark eldar have issues assaulting out of their transports. The make better gun platforms than assault platforms in my opinion.

Honestly I don't see anything needing fixing. Why you think you see assault rifles with no knives on them in modern combat. Look at the last samaraui and end the end it will show you how effective assault is in modern warfare.

Anyway assault was over the top in 3rd. When ever a 200 point unit of genestealers can destroy 1.5k of marines with landraider, rhinos, and the trimmings by themselves while the rest of the nid army just sit and watch I think it was a bit too much. Every edition has toned down assualting and raised shooting

However assault is not dead. You just have to think and not just bindly rush in and die. May it be from support shooting or psychic powers your assault units need support to get the job done.

Well 10 termagaunts with preferred enemy, poison, and furious charge can put some hurt dem marines. On the charge they can kill 3-4 marines, and if they have invisibility on them they can kill 4-5 marines on the charge. Heck 6 marines killing invisible gaunts is fun since 2 marines actually hit and if they have endurance they may kill 2 gaunts, but they will get 1 for sure, even betterif the marines are enfeebled which means 1 marine can actually get a wound through.

Since nids typically run at least 5 psykers with 15 rolls, it's not hard to see all those effects go off. Another reason I am leaning towards zonathorpes for more psychic buffs.

[rle68]

And again you miss salient point.

OP quoted it as 'small units of Marines and massive units.

Whereas you presented a powerful, maxed out unit as a shonky rebuttal, and chucked in some (inaccurate) slurs against my character.

Given the unit you posted (as continue to increase the points cost thereof) is kind of expected to job a horde. That's why take them yes?

Let's do a points crunch shall we, just for sake of additional comparison....

30 Ork Slugga Boyz with a big hard Nob (fnarr)....210 all in, including a Power Klaw and a Bosspole. And let's also give them Frag Stikk Bomms, because there is no sense in not taking them. Total of 240.

10 Grey Hunters, as are? 150. And the Boyz will kick their pointy canines down their throat in HTH...

10 Wolf Guard - 180. Given the higher number of attacks? Looking a bit dicier for the Boyz, but still far from insurmountable yes?

But, to be a small unit? Comprising 5-6 models in each Marine unit? Someone's going home in an ambulance, and its not the Orks!

Reading comprehension. It's a good thing!

number one no one made any slurs against your character you did that sir all on your own.. you responded back with names

powerful maxed out unit 10 grey hunters is powerful?

210 points you say and youll kick the canines out of their heads? keep dreaming.. ok just off top of my head

5 grey hunters 75 points
wolf guard with frost blade 28 points.. thats 103 oh lets see what else can i do to make it fair??? hmmm
how about i add a wolf guard battle leader with another frost blade for 95

your 210 vs my 198 ill take those odds any day of the week and ill have tons of dead green skins sitting beneath my power armored feet

7 models vs 30 and youll lose i love how people with mobs of 20 or more whine about marines in small numbers when you ALL max out your units to give 60 attacks or more

hell while we are at it why dont you add in a huge ork war boss maxed out on whatever you want ill add Ragnar and show you why you should have stayed home...

[DrLove42]

Math hammer. 7 space marines. 14 attacks. 7 hits. 4 wounds. 4 dead Orks.

30 orks. 60 attacks. 30 hit. 15 wound. 5 dead marines.

Second round of combat. 2 marines. 4 attacks. 2 hit. 1 dead Ork.
26 Orks. 54 attacks. 27 hits. 14 wounds. 4 wounds on Wolves. All wolves dead.

[rle68]

Math hammer. 7 space marines. 14 attacks. 7 hits. 4 wounds. 4 dead Orks.

30 orks. 60 attacks. 30 hit. 15 wound. 5 dead marines.

Second round of combat. 2 marines. 4 attacks. 2 hit. 1 dead Ork.
26 Orks. 54 attacks. 27 hits. 14 wounds. 4 wounds on Wolves. All wolves dead.

for reg space marines yes not wolves try 27 attacks 9 of which are power weapons hitting on 3's and killing on 3's re calculate.. thanks for playing

add in your ork war boss and i add Ragnar i guarantee you 15 or more dead orks, more if i charge

[Mr Mystery]

Oh dear. Here we go again.....

Realistically, how many do you expect to job in the first round? All 30? Extremely unlikely. That's 7 models.

5 of them have 15 attacks on the charge. Of which, half will hit, half will wound. So around 6 wounds or so. Statistically, one Ork will save. CONGRATULATIONS! That's 30 points of Dead Orkses.

Then the two Wolfguard. Frost blade one is 38 points (again, reading comprehension dear chap. It's a useful tool!). 4 attacks. Half hit. 2/3rds wound. Lets be kind and have him bag 2 Orks. Awesome sauce! That's 42 whole points dropped already! Good going!

Next Wolfguard? Guess what, again being kind, 2 more dead Orks.

9 down. 21 hitting back (including my big hard Nob, fnarr!).

60 attacks from the Boyz. 30 hits. 10 wounds. 3,3333 recurring. Again, rounding up, 4 dead Wulufs. Leaving you with three.

Now, brace yourself! IT'S FISTING TIME! 4 attacks. 2 hits. Two Wulufs go squishy.

Yes. You won the combat. With your sole remaining bloke. Orks are fearless, as there's 21 of them. And that's with the Wulufs charging......

Orkses charging? It just gets messier. Likely as not, you'll still get counter attack, so your damage output is constant.

But....the Orks? 80 attacks from the Boyz....40 hits....16.666 (call it 17) wounds.....around 6 dead. Fist polishes you off. Space Wolves wiped out for frankly negligible losses.

And it gets worse when I apply a bit of Dakka before the charge.... I'd likely drop two Wolves from 30 Slugga shots, meaning even with Overwatch (which will, statistically do nowt) you do even less damage to me.

Is it likely all 30 will make a single charge? Hard to say. It's certainly more than possible. But equally, what's the odds your unit would see combat previously unscathed?

And you unit? Just used up three FOC slots....set you back 268 points. To drop 54 points worth of Boyz. Good job there skip! Fool the enemy by throwing yourselves on their blades!

Hold on....arsed up my maths. 25% of 15 clearly isn't 6. It's closer to 4....so you kill even less! 48 points jobbed. However will my army cope?

[rle68]

Oh dear. Here we go again.....

Realistically, how many do you expect to job in the first round? All 30? Extremely unlikely. That's 7 models.

5 of them have 15 attacks on the charge. Of which, half will hit, half will wound. So around 6 wounds or so. Statistically, one Ork will save. CONGRATULATIONS! That's 30 points of Dead Orkses.

Then the two Wolfguard. Frost blade one is 38 points (again, reading comprehension dear chap. It's a useful tool!). 4 attacks. Half hit. 2/3rds wound. Lets be kind and have him bag 2 Orks. Awesome sauce! That's 42 whole points dropped already! Good going!

Next Wolfguard? Guess what, again being kind, 2 more dead Orks.

9 down. 21 hitting back (including my big hard Nob, fnarr!).

60 attacks from the Boyz. 30 hits. 10 wounds. 3,3333 recurring. Again, rounding up, 4 dead Wulufs. Leaving you with three.

Now, brace yourself! IT'S FISTING TIME! 4 attacks. 2 hits. Two Wulufs go squishy.

Yes. You won the combat. With your sole remaining bloke. Orks are fearless, as there's 21 of them. And that's with the Wulufs charging......

Orkses charging? It just gets messier. Likely as not, you'll still get counter attack, so your damage output is constant.

But....the Orks? 80 attacks from the Boyz....40 hits....16.666 (call it 17) wounds.....around 6 dead. Fist polishes you off. Space Wolves wiped out for frankly negligible losses.

And it gets worse when I apply a bit of Dakka before the charge.... I'd likely drop two Wolves from 30 Slugga shots, meaning even with Overwatch (which will, statistically do nowt) you do even less damage to me.

Is it likely all 30 will make a single charge? Hard to say. It's certainly more than possible. But equally, what's the odds your unit would see combat previously unscathed?

And you unit? Just used up three FOC slots....set you back 268 points. To drop 54 points worth of Boyz. Good job there skip! Fool the enemy by throwing yourselves on their blades!

lets have you start reading comprehension and the fact you know zip about space wolves your math hammer is skewed and its wrong.. i love how you graciously give me wounds from POWER WEAPONS THAT KILL YOU you dont give me anything.. and you also factor out higher weapon skills and higher strength

all of which add in more than what you factor in.. you want a realistic number of what id plan to kill with that setup? minimum of 10 more like 15 i have done it too many times

go back home read the wolves codex and come back and try again cus your full of fail right now

ohh now you want to add dakka to your list ok ill add Ragnars war howl and take furious charge into combat where your math hammer fails yet again

i didnt bring up over watch at all i am talking straight up fight.. im sorry orks cannot hang with wolves

[DarkLink]

It is not that the assault phase is less effective now...its that the shooting phase has been made more effective.


It did get a little less effective. Multi-charges were severly nerfed since you don't get your bonus attack now. Assaulting via foot you gain about an inch of assault range both in and out of terrain, but you now have a significant chance of failing a 5-6" charge to go with it, and it's now basically impossible to avoid assaulting through terrain the way you could back in 5th. More importantly, assault ranges out of vehicles are significantly shorter now, and virtually all assault armies rely on transports to deliver the assault units to combat. The removal of No Retreat also makes it much easier for certain armies like Orks or 'nids to tarpit certain other armies.



in 5th i pulled off a perfectly executed multi assault with 15 grey hunters and Ragnar and wiped out over 3 squads of 60 plus orks in total in 1 turn... can it happen now... not sure dont think the multi assault transfer wounds and losses like it did

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. Also, you'd be relying on No Retreat to pull this off reliably. No Retreat doesn't exist anymore. Also, you can't fit 60 Orks in one squad. I assume you mean 60 Orks total, but that's not what you actually said. Words matter.

[G00dySmiley]

wolves also banner drop and reroll all ones even saves, so only 2's really fail the first time with ones rerolled for armor saves, so not enough hits calculated, not enough wounds to orks and not enough saves also if you play orks you know getting 30 to charge in and all get to swing is not an easy task, some will be left in the back unable to connect.. also the mark of the wolven that everybody takes

[rle68]

i did say 3 squads of 60 plus orks in total in 1 turn.. i did say that..

yes that was 5th rules are different now i am aware

[rle68]

wolves also banner drop and reroll all ones even saves, so only 2's really fail the first time with ones rerolled for armor saves, so not enough hits calculated, not enough wounds to orks and not enough saves also if you play orks you know getting 30 to charge in and all get to swing is not an easy task, some will be left in the back unable to connect.. also the mark of the wolven that everybody takes

thanks for pointing that out i forgot the mark and the banner.. mystery is like magpie with some of his silliness i forget sometimes

[Mr Mystery]

Got it on me knee right now skip.

And you're the one who only gave snacky weapons to the Wolf Guard.

Care to try again?

Tell you what, I'll grab my dicicles..... I love rolling dice me!

Battle Leader first. 3 attacks basic, two CCW make it 4, charge takes it to 5. 3 hits (rolled 1,2,4,4,6). 1 wound (1,2,4).

Wolf Guard? 2 basic, 2 CCW, charge...1 hit. (2,2,3,4). 1 dead.

Grey Hunters? 3 each! 9 hits.... 6 wounds...2 saved.

So 6 Orks down. 24 get to hit back.... Boyz go first. 23x3=69 DUDE!

35 hits....13 wounds....3+ squeaky bum time....6 Wulufs down.

Big 'ard Nob (fnarr)....4 attacks....3 hits.....3 wounds.

Pretty comprehensive yes?

[rle68]

Got it on me knee right now skip.

And you're the one who only gave snacky weapons to the Wolf Guard.

Care to try again?

Tell you what, I'll grab my dicicles..... I love rolling dice me!

Battle Leader first. 3 attacks basic, two CCW make it 4, charge takes it to 5. 3 hits (rolled 1,2,4,4,6). 1 wound (1,2,4).

Wolf Guard? 2 basic, 2 CCW, charge...1 hit. (2,2,3,4). 1 dead.

Grey Hunters? 3 each! 9 hits.... 6 wounds...2 saved.

So 6 Orks down. 24 get to hit back.... Boyz go first. 23x3=69 DUDE!

35 hits....13 wounds....3+ squeaky bum time....6 Wulufs down.

Big 'ard Nob (fnarr)....4 attacks....3 hits.....3 wounds.

Pretty comprehensive yes?

snacky weapons? what the hell is a snacky weapon?
i gave them frost blades making them strength 5 and kill you with wound not giving you save .. you dont get saves from power weapons cus last time i checked orks arent ap3 or 2 in that case

all you have shown there is one you lack at rolling dice and two all you did was math hammer your orks to the best possible outcome.. face it pal you lose on this one

get used to it.. it happens to all ork players

[chicop76]

Unless they are thundercalf I don't really see orcs lossin that badly vs wolves.

Orcs have a lot of attacks for a really cheap point cost with a nob with a powerfist. Although you would probably win in the challenge. Unless you assaulting them they will do some hurt.

Ok don't orcs have a +6 save. What would power weapons do. If you are saying to take power weapons against orc nob than I got my laugh for today. Power weapons wouldn't change much.

The 2d6 assault range is good for models with fleet. The re rolls easily get them above average assault ranges, although you can argue last edition that would had d6+6 anyway for an average of 9 which a run re roll would be about right to gettin 6 with re rolling with 2 dice.

Orcs are actually beter in assalt since they don't lose models to no retreat now. It's like a guard squad with re rollable stubborn. They can beat squads even if the lose combat due to numbers, 5 power axe weapons do help. I would love invisibility on a 50 man guard blob. They would really beat down most things.

[Mr Mystery]

I gave them Frostblades. Genuine rolling that, so not exactly sure how I fail at rolling. I thought the Boyz did rather well.

But, lets go again! I'll let the Space Wolves charge again. And this time factor in Overwatch....

30 Sluggas.... 8 hits. 2 wounds. Both saved.

5 WS5 S5? 3 hits, 2 dead.

4 WS4, S5? 3 hits. 1 dead.

15 WS4, S4....7 hits. 6 wounds. 4 dead.

7 down. 23 to go.....

66 WS4, S3....33 have hit. So bang on average. Only 8 wounds though. 3 failed saves.

Nob now (fnarr). 4 attacks. 2 hit. 2 squashed.

You've got you Wolf Guard left.

Round two. And as this is a unit on unit pages, no new combatants join in....

4 WS5, S5. 1 hit. 1 dead.

3 WS4, S5? 3 hit. 3 dead.

19 left! So 18 Boyz...

54 Ws4, S3 attacks.....30 hits...11 wounds....6 failed saves....

Yep. Wolves wiped out. Again.

An on account of having little else todo, I can indeed do this all night....

Also, please note. I play Necrons and Daemons. Not Orks. Too much painting.

[chicop76]

You have to factor in challenges. The space wolf would want to challenge the nob to kill or prevent the power weapon attacks.

[Mr Mystery]

Quite possibly. But who with?

Lets do a quickie with the Battle Leader....

5 attacks, Ws5, S5... 3 hits (1,2,4,5,6). 3 wounds. Nob is dead in the face. But wasted wounds. That's 2 Boyz, or 6 attacks spared by the challenge.

Wolf Guard? Just did a single wound. And got squished in return.

So, back to my original point. A small (defined as 5-6 strong) Marine unit is simply incapable of wiping the floor with a massive unit. Lack of attacks, lack of resilience. All against them. Even draughting in an HQ and Elite choice makes little discernible difference...

[DrLove42]

Power Weapons mean **** here. Orks armour save is so poor its invalidated by everything.

Also your ignoring overwatch. If the Wolves charge, maths says they lose 2-3 marines just on the charge in...

[rle68]

I gave them Frostblades. Genuine rolling that, so not exactly sure how I fail at rolling. I thought the Boyz did rather well.

But, lets go again! I'll let the Space Wolves charge again. And this time factor in Overwatch....

30 Sluggas.... 8 hits. 2 wounds. Both saved.

5 WS5 S5? 3 hits, 2 dead.

4 WS4, S5? 3 hits. 1 dead.

15 WS4, S4....7 hits. 6 wounds. 4 dead.

7 down. 23 to go.....

66 WS4, S3....33 have hit. So bang on average. Only 8 wounds though. 3 failed saves.

Nob now (fnarr). 4 attacks. 2 hit. 2 squashed.

You've got you Wolf Guard left.

Round two. And as this is a unit on unit pages, no new combatants join in....

4 WS5, S5. 1 hit. 1 dead.

3 WS4, S5? 3 hit. 3 dead.

19 left! So 18 Boyz...

54 Ws4, S3 attacks.....30 hits...11 wounds....6 failed saves....

Yep. Wolves wiped out. Again.

An on account of having little else todo, I can indeed do this all night....

Also, please note. I play Necrons and Daemons. Not Orks. Too much painting.

i have run it myself as well and first round i killed 14 orks second round 12, lost 4 wolves first round and only 3 the second.. so what does this mean anything.. other then i roll better than you do.. not really

bring it to the table and well see what happens

[rle68]

Power Weapons mean **** here. Orks armour save is so poor its invalidated by everything.

Also your ignoring overwatch. If the Wolves charge, maths says they lose 2-3 marines just on the charge in...

no one said power weapons i said frost blades for +1 strength they are better than just power weapons they kill easier and they do mean something here

we also said we werent factoring on over watch.. straight up fight

[rle68]

Quite possibly. But who with?

Lets do a quickie with the Battle Leader....

5 attacks, Ws5, S5... 3 hits (1,2,4,5,6). 3 wounds. Nob is dead in the face. But wasted wounds. That's 2 Boyz, or 6 attacks spared by the challenge.

Wolf Guard? Just did a single wound. And got squished in return.

So, back to my original point. A small (defined as 5-6 strong) Marine unit is simply incapable of wiping the floor with a massive unit. Lack of attacks, lack of resilience. All against them. Even draughting in an HQ and Elite choice makes little discernible difference...

you keep telling yourself that .. since you dont play orks or wolves by your admission you have no idea what your talking about.. your another math hammer theorist that i wasted my time on

[Mr Mystery]

So.....three models left in the second round....with a maximum possible 9 attacks (4 for Battle Leader, 3 for Wolf Guard, 2 for Grey Hunter)...killed 12 Orks?

That's not good rolling matey. That's cheating, surely?

[chicop76]

I just rolled on it and all the marines died due to rolling a lot of ones on a lot of orc wounds. When I put my dice in the micowave I think I was supposed to have the 6s up and not the ones up. I am sure I will be able to kill all the orcs and take no wounds next timme.

[chicop76]

no one said power weapons i said frost blades for +1 strength they are better than just power weapons they kill easier and they do mean something here

we also said we werent factoring on over watch.. straight up fight

Have to get into the fight and overwatch would happen. I just rolled overwatch with my microwave dice for 60 shots with 56 hits, just rolled for wounds and got 48. Rolling on the space marine's saves on the bad dice. Just rolled 42 ones which means that marine squad is way dead.

[Mr Mystery]

you keep telling yourself that .. since you dont play orks or wolves by your admission you have no idea what your talking about.. your another math hammer theorist that i wasted my time on

Seeing as I own all the Codecies, barring Blood Angels which I keep forgetting I'm missing, how precisely do I know nothing? Unless you have a special copy of each with totally different rules?

Why do I buy every book? Because I read them on the bog.

[magickbk]

That's not good rolling matey. That's cheating, surely?

Maybe he has this? http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=16100001a

[chicop76]

Maybe he has this? http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=16100001a

Sadly thre is a technique to rolling dice. You can make them roll what you want, but it's only a handful at atime and requires larger dice. The smaller dice have more rotations and a bit harder to pull off.

[Mr Mystery]

Also less effective with beveled corners I believe.

[chicop76]

Just have dice with all 6s on all the sides and all ones as well. That would be awesome with daemons bring in 5 extra units in 5 turns. Also with riftbringer( requires 2s on all the sides) you can spawn 2 extra units a turn. That's 15 possible extra dadmon units at the end of turn 5.

[Mr Mystery]

I dunno man.

Not sure that's part of 'spirit of the game'....

Now back on topic.

Overall, assault is still how you swing the game. It's the best way to clear out and then occupy an objective. 6th Edition has just added threat to an otherwise simple tactic.

An all HTH army can still pull its weight, its now simply more advisable to have shooty elements to back them up. Either that or some kind of rolling cover (disposable unit or big tanky thing for instance). Once you're in HTH, its just as deadly as 5th Edition!

[DarkLink]

Even in 5th, Orks and Nidz were the only assault armies that could compete at higher levels (though Orks were nasty thanks to the various types of Nobz, and Deff Rollas on Battlewagons with Red Paint). In 6th, Land Raiders are a little more viable, but otherwise assault only got even more sidelined.

Now, in 5th, assault was an important part of the game. That's why Grey Knights were great, they could shoot with anyone else, and then mop up in assault. But assault winning games was predicated on shooting the crap out of your opponent first for almost everyone. And now with weaker cover saves, snap shots, overwatch (particularly combined with removing casualties from the front of the assaulting squad and the unreliability of random charge length), and nerfs to multi-charging, very, very, very few armies can go pure assault, at least in a competitive environment.

You can make some spoiler lists, such as triple Land Raiders, which kind of buck the trend, but they're still spoiler lists by definition. They are much more viable now that Tau can't spam Str 10 and people don't spam all meltaguns, though.

So, yeah, assault isn't dead by any means. But pure assault armies almost are.

[chicop76]

Even in 5th, Orks and Nidz were the only assault armies that could compete at higher levels (though Orks were nasty thanks to the various types of Nobz, and Deff Rollas on Battlewagons with Red Paint). In 6th, Land Raiders are a little more viable, but otherwise assault only got even more sidelined.

Now, in 5th, assault was an important part of the game. That's why Grey Knights were great, they could shoot with anyone else, and then mop up in assault. But assault winning games was predicated on shooting the crap out of your opponent first for almost everyone. And now with weaker cover saves, snap shots, overwatch (particularly combined with removing casualties from the front of the assaulting squad and the unreliability of random charge length), and nerfs to multi-charging, very, very, very few armies can go pure assault, at least in a competitive environment.

You can make some spoiler lists, such as triple Land Raiders, which kind of buck the trend, but they're still spoiler lists by definition. They are much more viable now that Tau can't spam Str 10 and people don't spam all meltaguns, though.

So, yeah, assault isn't dead by any means. But pure assault armies almost are.

My nid army miss going to ground while fearless. In 5th I had 3 waves of gaunts. Wave 1 had fnp and wave 2 and 3 was getting +4 cover saves. People was ignoring the front wave and was shooting the cover save gaunts which I went to ground for +3 cover saves when they was receiving a lot of wounds. The tactic worked really well since the fnp gaunts wil be locked in combat, than my newly spawned gaunts will also help. The gtg gaunts will form a wave 2 which will help push through whatever wave 1 was fighting against. The tactic even killed terminators. I may had lost +1 int, but my fnp units can now ignore power weapon attacks.

The major draw back I don't like is I lose more gaunts due to not being able to gtg and a worst cover save, and to over watch. However I am making up for it with my hive tyrants who roll on telepathy for invisibility which one unit will have a +2 cover save. If I am lucky I will have 2 invisible units at one time. Endurance is usually generated from my tervigons and my zonathorpes. I am not so much going for Iron Arm even though it is nice to have. I rather invisibility, endurance, and enfeeble spread all around.

[Bigred]

Ladies and Gentlemen gamers - keep it civil....

Once again - Adults - Toy Soldiers - Forest - Trees, etc... You all know the drill.

[G00dySmiley]

i would say that in the assault army there is mroe than orks/nids, blood angels can make a mean assault army and thanks to power armor and drop pods/fast rhinos

10 death company 200
rhino 55

5x 10 assault marines 190 each so 950
5x free drop pods or 20 points each for rhinos... 100 buys all 5

1305 for 6 rhinos and 60 power armor marines

heck you could keep jet packs on assaults and footflog the death company with a reclusiarch drop 1 death company and you have a 1250 assaulty marines list.

[Power Klawz]

I'm pretty sure that Orks and perhaps to a lesser extent nids will be made marginally more survivable when they get thir 6th edition 'dex as recompense for overwatch. I'm pretty sure orks will get universal 6+ fnp which should help a bit.

Its basically about giving them methods to get into combat before they're shot to pieces. This is why everyone cries bitter tears over Banshees, there's just no way to assault something without opening yourself up to a round of shooting and since they're somewhat fragile all it takes is a solid round of bolter fire to kick their teeth out. Of course this could largely be considered a matter of target priority and movement, and of course there are many ways around it but that's what people will fixate on, "I can't use this scalpel like a baseball bat, how will I hit home runs now?"

Orks are a baseball bat though, and as such there should ideally be precious little artistry to their usage. Run at the things that aren't green enough and krump some 'eds. They're all ready quite amazing at this as is mind you. Moderately high toughness, obscenely cheap, hit like a ton of green bricks if they make it, and fearless into the bargain until they're well under useful size anyways. They wear wife beaters for armor of course, but for 6 points a pop your defense is really body count not armor.

A 6+ fnp will give them that little edge they need to be better bulldozers in my opinion. Some niftier options would be rather swanky as well. Maybe different weapon options for nobz, different AP values on their h2h weapons (ap5 would be really nifty I think, maybe ap4 on the charge for choppas, might constitute a points increase though which would be less than favorable, especially when dealing with MEQ and TEQ.)

Not really sure why 'Ard Boyz are a 0-1 choice either, should just be an option. Maybe a new(old) unit like madboyz would be interesting. No ranged attacks and maybe rage to go along with their furious charge, or perhaps a more nuanced interaction with weirdboyz. Just spitballing really.

What premier assault armies need is either A. slightly greater survivability to compensate for overwatch or B. better deployment and movement options. Orks all ready have fast assault vehicles (they're made out of toilet paper though.) and not so fast assault vehicles that are made out of two-ply extra strong Charmin. Some more deep striking options for elite assault units is really all I'd want on that front. (tellyportin' meganobz thanxbai.)

[TSINI]

Well, that escalated quickly...

I've been reading through this, the title post was meant to be provocative for a yay or nay response to whether things needed changing or not and there are good (and excellent) points being made on both sides.

Realistically we aren't going to see changes to the core rules. But there will be "exciting" rules introduced in upcoming codices. The TAU have been given big assed guns and nifty overwatch skills. With the Eldar, they have been given an extra bite in their shooting, better accuracy, and a whole new scale of manoeuvrability.

So what's upcoming for the two classic horde assault armies I wonder?

I did read an interesting post about target saturation, the fact you can only take 6 troops does have an impact. 6 ten-man marine squads can break down into 12 five-man teams, which can deal with 6 units of massed hordes much more effectively than 6 squads can.

Maybe the guard platoon model will prove to be a winner for the hordes.

Just spitballing but what if tyranid grunts were just purchased as 1 large unit per type? then you were free to split them up into units how you pleased at deployment, minimum squad numbers for deployment could be enforced, and they could break coherency to form smaller units, or move into coherency to create larger squads and any unit that ends up lower than a certain number at the end of the turn is destroyed?

This would mean you could truly present your opponent with target saturation, and adapt your fighting force on the move, rather than setting up and 'going through the motions' of just charging forwards.

Orks could be similar.

This would be a good way to represent the disregard of "order" in these two armies. Clearly tyranids are just a scythed carpet of bodies, and orks don't really need to organise themselves into neat squads.

[Deadlift]

Orks I'm interested to see what happens there, GW seem to be taking what distinguishes an army and turning up the dial to 10 in 6th. Orks I have always seen as the green tide army, so many attacks and dice that when they hit your lines your just overwhelmed. Now I read a rumour which is obviously taken with a huge amount of salt that Ward was working on the Ork codex. That could be interesting to say the least.
My next projects going to be Ork based, most likely a Dreadmob. Competitive maybe not, but in combat it could be tasty.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

My Fire Warriors own Dreadnoughts in close combat, jus' sayin'.

Also, what the actual f is this thread? I just read it all and I can only assume that rle68 is challenged if he thinks Orks are a pushover.

+++CENSORED BY THE INQUISITION+++

[rle68]

my fire warriors own dreadnoughts in close combat, jus' sayin'.

Also, what the actual f is this thread? I just read it all and i can only assume that rle68 is challenged if he thinks orks are a pushover. Seriously dude, grow up, you're acting like a b*tch.

+++censored by the inquisition+++

[Bigred]

CUT IT OUT

Final warning. Further uncivil behavior will result in thread locking.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Anyway, I want to pit 30 Hormagaunts against 30 standard Boyz, that would be the punch up of the century.

[chicop76]

Anyway, I want to pit 30 Hormagaunts against 30 standard Boyz, that would be the punch up of the century.

The hormagaunts got to at least have invisibility on them and feel no pain to show what they more than likely will have.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Invisible Gaunts? O_O
Now I can't sleep.

[chicop76]

Invisible Gaunts? O_O
Now I can't sleep.

Tyranids have access to invisibility, so yeah they can easily do it with the amount of rolls they have. Only the swarmlord can castit sadly enough. Even still it will make them immune to over watch and counter charge, and lower ws to 1 with a +4 cover saver. Is that awesome or what.

[DarkLink]

i have run it myself as well and first round i killed 14 orks second round 12, lost 4 wolves first round and only 3 the second.. so what does this mean anything.. other then i roll better than you do.. not really

bring it to the table and well see what happens

So you're taking a squad of at least 8 models, and you imply that you take more. How is that a 'small' squad? And if you did take 8 Wolf Guard, you rolled pretty well considering that you only kill 8 on average dice on the charge, relegating your example to anecdotal evidence. Also, 8 Wolf Guard with Frost Blades is significantly more expensive than a 30 Ork mob. I'm seeing some flaws in your argument.

[daboarder]

So you're taking a squad of at least 8 models, and you imply that you take more. How is that a 'small' squad? And if you did take 8 Wolf Guard, you rolled pretty well considering that you only kill 8 on average dice on the charge, relegating your example to anecdotal evidence. Also, 8 Wolf Guard with Frost Blades is significantly more expensive than a 30 Ork mob. I'm seeing some flaws in your argument.

Yeah at ballanced points there's at least another 30 orks behind that lot, they're coming out ahead.

[chicop76]

Maybe they have a madock with +5 invulnerable, and +5 feel no pain instead.

[rle68]

So you're taking a squad of at least 8 models, and you imply that you take more. How is that a 'small' squad? And if you did take 8 Wolf Guard, you rolled pretty well considering that you only kill 8 on average dice on the charge, relegating your example to anecdotal evidence. Also, 8 Wolf Guard with Frost Blades is significantly more expensive than a 30 Ork mob. I'm seeing some flaws in your argument.

i said 5 grey hunters 1 wgbl and a wg thats 7 never said 8.. try reading please

[chicop76]

My money is on the 30 orcs. Weight of numbers tend to win. Mad Doc G with +5 invulnerable for all and +5 feel no pain for the win.

[daboarder]

i said 5 grey hunters 1 wgbl and a wg thats 7 never said 8.. try reading please

If we're throwing in WGBL, then throw in a powerklaw Boss

and if you said you last 4 wolves, then 3....your squad was wiped. How is that beating the orks?

[rle68]

first dice run i lost 4 then the second dice run i lost 3..

ya'll want to keep throwing things i can as well...oh and we all know fnp doesnt work anymore

[chicop76]

first dice run i lost 4 then the second dice run i lost 3..

ya'll want to keep throwing things i can as well...oh and we all know fnp doesnt work anymore

Ic can give the squad feel no pain, so power weapon that. Also +5 invulnerable they will save a bit more. If you where to wound 9 orks, 6 will pass due to +5 invul, and 2 will live due to feel no pain leaving you 4 dead orcs. That's a littble bit better than half. I say orc smash.

[daboarder]

first dice run i lost 4 then the second dice run i lost 3..

ya'll want to keep throwing things i can as well...oh and we all know fnp doesnt work anymore

You do realise that YOUR the one who started adding the additional characters right?

[chicop76]

You do realise that YOUR the one who started adding the additional characters right?

Lol. I know d-scthe warithguard as a unit of 5 can hadle some of em orcs.

[daboarder]

I think they can handle anything stupid enough to charge em.


Rle68 try this,

Roll the dice for your marines killing the orks,

lets say we go with your first set.

14 orks die...theres still 16 left, 4 marines die, theres 3 left.

What happens next round?

4 orks die? how many marines die? 2? even just one? game over man, even better your dead on your turn so the scraps of the ork mob can screen for another 30 boys blob behind them.

And they're still cheaper than you are.

[Mr.Pickelz]

As an ork player i am perplexed by this debate, the unit vs. unit scenario keeps escalating from one squad of "marines" to elite Wolf-Guard with IC's.
Ork boyz mobz are suppose to be cheap, and that's because your suppose to take more than one. A single unsupported Boyz mob won't last the entire match, and certainly won't be at full strength past the first round of the game. If your throwing a Wolf Guard unit that ranges from 500 points to 800 points, then be sure and compensate the other side with more boyz, each Ork Boyz mob with a Power Klaw wielding boy comes in around 220 points. Thus to keep a points balance even, the ork side ends up with 3+ Mobz of orks. This leads to the Ork side having something close to 90 orks against those 10 Wolf-Guard. When adding in IC's into the mix, i am seeing Wolf-Guard Battle Leaders and Ragnar being tossed into the mixing pot. So on the Ork side one would think to add Ghazkull Thraka and Mad Doc Grotsnik, and the appropriate points cost of adding in Doc's Giftz (cybork body on the boyz). When facing a challenge, issued by the Space Wolf player, the Ork player should toss the Boyz Mob Nob at that, as to leave Ghazkull and Mad Doc(who has a Power Klaw) to attack the unit. Unless the Wolf-guard are loaded with Storm Shields, thus reducing overwatch potential, those AP2 PK attacks would relatively knock out the Space Wolves.

If your only looking at a fully kited out Grey Hunter unit against a fully kited out Boyz mob, then your looking at something along the lines of: (IMO)

Grey Hunters- 10 Models
Power weapon
Mark of the wulfen
2x flamers
Wolf Banner

Ork 'Eavy boyz Mob - 30 Models
Nob with Power Klaw and Boss-pole
3x big shootas

Now the Grey Hunters are equipped to deal only with melee, so the flamers offer good over-watch, the Power weapons and rending from the Marked model ignore the 4+ armor on the 'Eavy Boyz, and the banner helps control bad rolls.

For the Orks, the Big shootas are to help with overwatch, and without a character in the Grey Hunters, the Nob won't be challenged. Since, buying a Wolf-Guard for a "Sarg." model means you must buy at least 3 wolf-guard( aka another unit)
this leaves the Nob to use "Look Out Sir!" to bounce any wounds he might take from the I:4 grey hunters, also the Counter Attack rule is going off of Leadership 8, which isn't reliable. Use the 3 inch move to surround the Nob and help keep him alive while maximizing the amount of attacks back. Thus begins the 40k Mosh-Pit... :D

[DarkLink]

i said 5 grey hunters 1 wgbl and a wg thats 7 never said 8.. try reading please

You said 4 Marines dies in the first round of combat, and then 3 in the second round. That's 7 dead Marines. Seeing as you claimed victory in the fight, I only naturally assumed that you had at least one Marine left alive. Now, 4+3+1=8. I'm not sure why you're claiming victory there.

Now, since there's this thing called math we get to use, let's use it.


5 Grey Hunters, 1 WGBL with a Frost Blade, and a WG with a Frost Blade is 208pts. 30 Ork boyz with no upgrades is 180pts. We'll assume that you not only get the charge off, but you're also in position where you can fire your pistols without wrecking your odds of making the assault. That's 7 shots, one at BS5. Assuming the Orks aren't in cover, that's 2.41 dead Orks. We'll round that up to 3 to be conservative.

The remaining 27 Orks, which we'll assume are shoota boyz, since it sounds like that's what you were fighing and everyone plays them over choppa boyz now anywayss, will get 54 shots back. 9 hit, 4.5 wound, 2.25 Marine die. We'll round down to 2, just to be conservative, and assume it's two GHs rather than your more damaging WGBL/WG.

On the charge, you get 5 WS5 Str 5 attacks from the WGBL, 4 WS4 Str 5 attacks from the WG, and 9 Str 4 attacks from the GH. That gives us 5.333 Str 5 hits, and 4.5 Str 4 hits. After rolling to wounds, we're left with 3.556 power weapon wounds for 3.556 dead Orks, plus 2.25 armor saves for another 1.875 dead Orks.

Total, on the charge, you've killed 7 Orks. The remaining 23 strike back. 46 WS4 Str 3 attacks makes 23 hits, 7.667 wounds, and 2.556 more wounds. We'll round down again, to be conservative, even though it will bias the results quite a bit at this point.

Congratulations, you just killed 7 Orks, and lost 4 Marines in the process. You've failed to bring the Orks down below their Fearless threshold, and by quite a bit I might add, so there's no Morale check for them.

Round 2.

Your Frost blades kill 2.778 Orks, and your lone remaining GH, who is only alive because we've heavily biased the rounding in favor of the Marines, kills 0.4111. Basically 3 dead Orks. Slightly more, but we've been very conservative in favor of the SWs so far and it's only slightly more than 3.

The 20 remaining Orks strike back. 40 attacks, 20 hits, 6.667 wounds, and 2.2222 failed saves. Rounding down in favor of the SWs again, that's your WGBL left with a single wound fighting 20 Orks, though our conservative estimates have lead to rounding errors that mean you've probably taken at least one extra wound on average dice which would finish off the WGBL. Whatever.

Round 3.

WGBL kills 2 more Orks. The remaining 18 strike back and kill your WGBL. Your whole party has died. All to kill 12 Orks. On slightly better than average dice, since we did a lot of rounding in favor of the Space Wolves. Congratulations.

[rle68]

cheese and rice .. i guess i should have said it was two separate assaults.. is that better?

and you can math hammer all you want but more often then not not all 30 orks are going to get to fight the advantage goes to the wolves there..and quite honestly i roll better than avg so you go live by math hammer.. ill live by my tourney results

and for the love of god will you people actually read no one said an entire squad of wolf guard never not once was that mentioned

[Mr Mystery]

You did though. In your first post.

You take your tourney results, and I'll stick with my 24 years of gaming experience....

And you cannot defend your claim with an unproven anecdote about your rolling prowess. We've already seen you openly lie here (9 attacks, killing 12 Orks...) so you'll understand if we're at least a wee bit sceptical about your claims.

Even the unit you presented (7 man strong, which I would describe as 'middle sized') gets panelled time and time again by a mob of 30 Orks.....

[Deadlift]

""""Huge mobs of Orks being beaten by small squads of Marines? Utter bollocks, barring unfortunate dice.""""

Really? you actually said that? you bring you 30 man ork mob ill bring my 10 man wolfguard or grey hunter units and well see who yells bollocks.. wolves eat orks all day every day. il even be kind and leave the power weapons at home

Right here you said exactly that young man.

[daboarder]

and quite honestly i roll better than avg so you go live by math hammer


You do realise that this statement is utter bollocks unless you use cocked dice.

you may roll above average in certain sitautions, but the rule of large numbers means that your going to roll an even distribution of 1,2,3,4,5,6 when you roll a large enough "group" of dice.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I think we have a cheater...

I bet that Farsight could down that ENTIRE SW unit single handedly. (cheeky) :p

[Psychosplodge]

Well I did have a crisis suit crush a daemon prince in h2h once, does that count?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Seems legit, I beat a Daemon Prince in cc with my Riptide yesterday, got pretty lucky.

[Psychosplodge]

Seems legit? Was legit. My opponent was gutted...

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Back during my first go at Tau, my 6 man Fire Warrior squad beat 5 Terminators in cc, so I'm ready to believe anything.

[Psychosplodge]

That's more impressive.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I was only a wee whippersnapper back then.

[Wolfshade]

Everyone has seen improbable results, my favourite is a scout sarge (with sniper rifle) taking the last two wounds from a flyrant aftre watching the rest of his squad be eaten...

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Nice. Does it help that my Riptide managed to make the flying Daemon Prince crash and then beat him up?

[Wolfshade]

Nice. Does it help that my Riptide managed to make the flying Daemon Prince crash and then beat him up?

I think that that makes it worse..

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

How? My Riptide doesn't have Skyfire. :p

It's also WS2...

[Wolfshade]

How? My Riptide doesn't have Skyfire. :p

It's also WS2...

Exactly, it makes it more improbable, hence worse (or better if you prefer it)

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

It's that 2+ armour save (and 3+ invun, because I can't seem to fail my Nova charge ever)

I was playing the Manager of GW Shrewsbury with his Iron Warriors, good game, but he won. :p

[chicop76]

I had my 35 point alluress kill a bloodthirster. She had invisibility and + 2 invulnerable( go Fateweaver). It also helped I was fighting 10 plague bearers with the rest of my squad which was causing instability checks on the Bloodthirster. Also having prescience does help and misfortune on the Bloodthirster.

The end result was I was hitting the thirster on re rollable 3s and if I wounded the Thrister had to re roll passed saves. While the Thirster hit me on 5s ( invisibility lowers ws to 1) and had to get pass a +2 invulnerable that half the time was re rollable due to Fate Weaver.

The beauty of it all was the fact I re rolled on the warp table twice and got the +4 invulnerable save for my whole army. Also I had the divination power to give a unit a +4 invulnerable which made sure that daemonette squad had +2 invulnerable saves all game long.

The flying dance of fateweaver, Loc, and Tzeentch Daemon Prince giving support powers to my army.

[Mr Mystery]

I've had two Gun Drones drop an Emperor's Champion in HTH. They didn't even charge!

Have also had a sole stand of Gretchin drop an Emperor Titan in Epic!

[Psychosplodge]

Have also had a sole stand of Gretchin drop an Emperor Titan in Epic!

Get squished in the ankle joint and tripped it?

[Wolfshade]

Bit that shiney wire Fzzt crunch

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I've had two Gun Drones drop an Emperor's Champion in HTH. They didn't even charge!

That doesn't surprise me, Drones are hench as f*ck.

[Mr Mystery]

Get squished in the ankle joint and tripped it?

Nope. Stood behind it and let fly with their Blunderbuss.... Silly Princeps had neglected to divert Plasma into his VSG..... Gretchin hit, rolled bang on for the targetting, clobbering the main plasma reactor. Snake Eyes to save, 6 on the damage chart....and one very, very melty Imperator.

And 5 exceedingly well cooked Gretchin sadly.....

[Dave Mcturk]

entertaining thread ... mmm ... but on topic,, a lot of comp games or walk ins are on preset terrain... but with the terrain deployment rules being used as per brb, it is easy to set up lots of los blocking terrain to favour 'ambush' style cc armies... anyone playing a 'friendly' game on a billiard table using cc or horde v gunline just needs to ask for terrain rules to be used...

we usually set terrain before choosing sides, scenario and deployment so it doesnt get too cheesy,, but i find 3 or 4 woods sections roughly 12-16" long and 6-8" deep are perfect cover for my assault armies...

i used to play a lot of DBM and the principle there was that if you wanted terrain you brought your own features... [each army was permitted different historical terrain] ... but in 40k bringing 3 or 4 bits of transportable terrain should improve games and make close assault armies more viable

[Popsical]

YAY!!! The troll is back! I was worried the thread might get boring.

[DrLove42]

That doesn't surprise me, Drones are hench as f*ck.

I had 4 shield drones headbutt 10 assault vangaurd vets to death once, for a single loss.

[Popsical]

Lmao. Keep going dude.
Your tact is nearly as good as your dice rolling.

[Psychosplodge]

I had 4 shield drones headbutt 10 assault vangaurd vets to death once, for a single loss.

Shield drones?
Impressive... Sounds like a lot of rubber knifing going on there though...

[Sly]

YAY!!! The troll is back! I was worried the thread might get boring.

Hehe. I need more popcorn.

[The Girl]

You were warned. This thread is now closed.