Fortifocation Questions?

[chicop76]

I have been glancing over the fortification rules and noticed that they are much better than people I seen actually use them.

Orignally I never considered using a building until tonight. I think it's rather good depending on what army you run.

To start off it seems you can damn near plop your building halfway in the middle of the board. That means possible 3 ft range from the building in any game you may play. The only draw back it has to be 3" away from another fortificatio. Heck you can put an aegis defense line in the middle of the board you wanted.

What's even better as long as you have scout you can instantly be inside even though their are enemy models near the building. I am trying to figure if the 1" rule would matter. Infiltatte I can see, but with scout that's really good. That means greyknight Paladins can start in the middle of the board.

It doesn't matter for 12 " scout movers, but rather good for 6" scout movers.

This means for example I can plop a fortress of redemption in the middle of the board and have it full of kroot or genestealers.

This would be good for melee armies who could start in the middle of the board and have a huge piece of terrain in the middle blocking Los.

[Caitsidhe]

I have been glancing over the fortification rules and noticed that they are much better than people I seen actually use them.

How much have you seen people used them? They are, in fact, rather a mixed bag with some SERIOUS problems.


To start off it seems you can damn near plop your building halfway in the middle of the board. That means possible 3 ft range from the building in any game you may play. The only draw back it has to be 3" away from another fortification. Heck you can put an aegis defense line in the middle of the board you wanted.

You can, but there is no guarantee that it is YOUR infiltrators that are going to get in there first. Currently the way the RAW is written, nothing prevents someone else from deploying into your Fortification. I don't know about you but I don't want to have a 50/50 chance (if the other guy also has Infiltrators) of having my opponent shooting at me with those any gun emplacements and/or probably staring down my throat with something I can't ignore. It is nice to have this option but it would have been a far better investment if they stated in the rules or the Faq that opponents treat Fortifications that you pay for as your units and thus must deploy the proper distances from them. So far they have not done that. *I myself have often deployed into opponent's Fortifications and I can assure you the result is quite devastating.


This means for example I can plop a fortress of redemption in the middle of the board and have it full of kroot or genestealers.

I suppose so, yeah if someone else didn't do it first.


This would be good for melee armies who could start in the middle of the board and have a huge piece of terrain in the middle blocking Los.

This is also true. The real problem is they treat Buildings like vehicles except for the different chart. While the Aegis and Skyshield are exceptions to this (and I use them frequently) the Bastion and FoR tend to be nothing but deathtraps wherein the people inside are often unable to shoot, assault when they need to do so, and/or wasted. Consider that the kinds of troops that need the most protection are exactly the kind of troops likely to be killed when the building comes down. The kinds of troops most likely to survive a destroyed building are the ones kind of wasted in there.

I've attempted the "head start" tactic (I talk about it in a post sometime back about how the Skyshield is actually the best assault vehicle in the game), and it isn't that great with buildings. I only start the Aegis that far forward when either I haven't placed a Quad or Icarus in it or my opponent doesn't have Infiltrators, and I'm likely to go first. I'm willing to put a Skyshield out there and take the risk a bit more often because I'm generally using Huron to infiltrate a D3 units forward. If my opponent has infiltrators too, I make sure to place it as close to some other LOS blocking terrain as possible so if I get beat to the Skyshield my own infantry surge on to it very quickly to retake it. It is all about options and the Skyshield works best because it IS NOT treated as a building, holds a LOT of models, and has an invulnerable save. Best of all, it CANNOT be destroyed and the people on it never feel any of those effects which prevent them from doing things.

[chicop76]

You can't infiltrate into enemy buildings, which means they can't jack it.

However they can possibly jack your pad however.

Although with the pad and aegis you will have to still stay out of the required range and scout as normal.

The major differance is with the building you can easily pop inside with scout or infiltrate.

Not assaulting out of a building is a big drag. However it's still a viable option for Grey Knights which helps with their limited range. 3 scouting purifiers inside a fortress of redeption in the middle of the board is still not a bad tactic. They have good range and not an easy unit to assault.

Still I see your point, but I wouldn't mind kroot in a bastion in a foward postion, or some pathfinders a little bit back within 36" range.

[daboarder]

You can't infiltrate into enemy buildings, which means they can't jack it.



Got a rule quote?

[Magpie]

Currently the way the RAW is written, nothing prevents someone else from deploying into your Fortification.

Not so. The deployment rules say quite clearly you can't embark enemy buildings with Scout or Infiltrate. What it does say and might be where the confusion is coming from is that an enemy fortification is only considered and enemy UNIT if it is occupied. (Page 121). THis would place restrictions on the Scout and Infil moves.

Pretty sure you can deploy onto an AGL or Skyshield without restriction beyond the normal deployment rules, as can the enemy. Your not "within" a skyshield landing pad.

I certainly agree tho' that buildings are death traps and things generally end badly for the occupants.

[Caitsidhe]

The problem is exactly what you just said Magpie. The rules only consider them enemy if they are OCCUPIED. This means you can infiltrate into them just fine as long as the other guy hasn't done so already. It needs a Faq.

[Tynskel]

I disagree. It is your fortification until Turn 1.

[Boscolamb]

You can't infiltrate into enemy buildings, which means they can't jack it.

Not assaulting out of a building is a big drag. However it's still a viable option for Grey Knights which helps with their limited range. 3 scouting purifiers inside a fortress of redeption in the middle of the board is still not a bad tactic. They have good range and not an easy unit to assault.

Just curious, but how do the GK Purifiers qualify for the Scout special rule?

[Houghten]

A Grand Master can dish out Scout to D3 units, though it usually gets overlooked in favour of the option that lets him make them Troops instead.

[Nabterayl]

I concur with Tynskel and Magpie. The fact that the fortification is not an enemy unit unless occupied does not mean that an unoccupied fortification cannot be an enemy fortification. Unit != fortification.

[Magpie]

The problem is exactly what you just said Magpie. The rules only consider them enemy if they are OCCUPIED. This means you can infiltrate into them just fine as long as the other guy hasn't done so already. It needs a Faq.

No it doesn't.

Earlier in the rule it says that you can set up freely within any of your armies fortifications it also says that only friendly infiltrators and scouts can deploy into a building setup within 12" of the centre, later in the rule it says you cannot set up in enemy fortifications.
That sets the notion of forts having an allegiance prior to the game commencing.

Buildings are considered enemy UNITS if they are occupied, meaning that Infiltrators have to be 18" away if the have LoS to it and Scouts must remain 12" away. If it is empty then they have no affect on them.

[Magpie]

Not assaulting out of a building is a big drag. However it's still a viable option for Grey Knights which helps with their limited range. 3 scouting purifiers inside a fortress of redeption in the middle of the board is still not a bad tactic. They have good range and not an easy unit to assault.

The problem is all the great CC ability of Purifiers goes, quite literally, out the window. When you assault a unit in a building (fortification) you can only attack the building not the squad. So apart from a severely restricted overwatch they play no part in the assault but suffer the results from the building copping a pasting.

Note too that Scout does not allow you to set up outside of you deployment zone, so the building would need to be within 6" of your forward line of deployment.

[DarkLink]

That's not really a bad thing. GKs don't want to be in assault until late game against most opponents, unless you're facing Tau or something like that. And against Tau, protection against their shooting until late game is never a bad thing. So just sit and shoot from the Bastion until the time is right to jump out.

[Nabterayl]

Note too that Scout does not allow you to set up outside of you deployment zone, so the building would need to be within 6" of your forward line of deployment.
Still disagree with this. Old argument not worth rehashing, in this thread, but I don't think this is the consensus view on this board.

[chicop76]

Too tired to quote and too lazy.

1. If you scout move it's a free move, which you can move outside of deployment as long as you stay outside of 12" of an enemy model.

2. With the building fortification I can double check, but it seems you can just scout and be inside even though it is beyond the scout move. I may be wrong if so you can still move 6" up and embark it. The rule seems like you do not have to do that.

Y'all know that more than likly it's an armour 14 building. Not the easiest thing to get rid off. Unless you have melta bombs or have smash attacks not many assaults can hurt armour 14. Str 8 needs 6s to even glance.

I was using Purifiers as an example. Heck it can be paladins if you like it to be. I just said Purifiers since they are good in assault.

I can look over that section. It all depends on when the fortification is deteremed an enemy fortifcation. The fortress of redemption is multipart and the way it's worded you couldn't occupy and alredy occupied buildig.

However I think it will be silly that you could just infiltrate into someones building no matter where they put it. I really doubt you can do that. Which is what you are arguing when you say your building can be hyjacked in the middle of the board. If that was the case it can be hyjacked anywhere on the board.

[Magpie]

Too tired to quote and too lazy.

1. If you scout move it's a free move, which you can move outside of deployment as long as you stay outside of 12" of an enemy model.

2. With the building fortification I can double check, but it seems you can just scout and be inside even though it is beyond the scout move. I may be wrong if so you can still move 6" up and embark it. The rule seems like you do not have to do that.

Scout confers upon a unit the ability to redeploy not move. You are allowed to redeploy within 6" (some cases 12") of your initial deployment which for a Scout unit must be within your deployment zone. Deployment within a fort grants you the ability to ignore proximity of enemy units and to embark into the building, something you cannot normally do with Scout. There is no grant to redeploy beyond the normal range of the Scout rule.


I can look over that section. It all depends on when the fortification is deteremed an enemy fortifcation. The fortress of redemption is multipart and the way it's worded you couldn't occupy and alredy occupied buildig.

A fortification is enemy or friendly right from the get go, as soon as you purchase them as part of your army. The rule for fortifications only says that the fort is considered an enemy UNIT when it is occupied. Nothing in the rules allows you at any time during deployment to occupy and enemy fortification.

[SacredChao]

A fortification is enemy or friendly right from the get go, as soon as you purchase them as part of your army. The rule for fortifications only says that the fort is considered an enemy UNIT when it is occupied. Nothing in the rules allows you at any time during deployment to occupy and enemy fortification.

The issue is that a "fortification" are pieces of terrain, terrain is not enemy OR friendly. When you buy fortifications, they are part of your list, you spent points on them. But when you put it on the table, is it still really yours? If you put a Bastion in the center of the table, is it friendly or enemy still? It's almost as close to your opponent as it is to you, if he gets there first he can get in, fire the guns, all the things you can do. GW has neglected to make it entirely clear whether the fortification is "friendly" or "enemy" when not occupied.

Generally, when I play, terrain is terrain, once the fortification is placed it is no longer anyone's unless they are in it. The points you pay are ensure that you have terrain where you want it.

[Magpie]

That's a great way of looking at it however the rules say pretty clearly that you are not allowed to set up in an enemy fortification and you can set up in friendly ones.

So that makes it pretty clear I think that they do have an allegiance at the start at least and which is friendly and which is enemy should be worked out the same way it is for every other component of your army?

GW haven't neglected to make it clear they have simply, again, neglected to state the bleeding obvious.

[Nabterayl]

GW has neglected to make it entirely clear whether the fortification is "friendly" or "enemy" when not occupied.

I think page 121 does make it clear:


Units can never deploy inside an enemy fortification, nor can they use pre-game abilities (like Scout redeployment) to embark in enemy fortifications before the first turn begins. Once the game begins, units are free to move into or out of any fortifications, friendly or enemy, following the normal rules.

Obviously you can't deploy inside a fortification that is occupied by an enemy unit. That's already been covered by page 95, which specifies that a fortification can only be occupied by a single unit at a time. The only way page 121 says anything is if an unoccupied fortification can still be friendly or enemy.

[chicop76]

I think page 121 does make it clear:


Units can never deploy inside an enemy fortification, nor can they use pre-game abilities (like Scout redeployment) to embark in enemy fortifications before the first turn begins. Once the game begins, units are free to move into or out of any fortifications, friendly or enemy, following the normal rules.

Obviously you can't deploy inside a fortification that is occupied by an enemy unit. That's already been covered by page 95, which specifies that a fortification can only be occupied by a single unit at a time. The only way page 121 says anything is if an unoccupied fortification can still be friendly or enemy.

I will look over the book today, but the fortress of redeption can eaisly be an enemy fortification and would apply. A bastion wouldn't meat that criteria since it has limited space.

[Magpie]

I will look over the book today, but the fortress of redeption can eaisly be an enemy fortification and would apply. A bastion wouldn't meat that criteria since it has limited space.

What Nab and I are saying is that the Fortification doesn't have to be occupied to be considered and enemy/friendly. The rule of Page 121 talks about setting up in enemy/friendly forts so therefore empty forts must be enemy or friendly, otherwise the rule can never be applied.

[chicop76]

What Nab and I are saying is that the Fortification doesn't have to be occupied to be considered and enemy/friendly. The rule of Page 121 talks about setting up in enemy/friendly forts so therefore empty forts must be enemy or friendly, otherwise the rule can never be applied.

What I am saying what if you take a Fortress of Repedeption and an enemy model enters it making it an enemy fortification with open building slots you might can occupy.

I don't know cause I havn't looked at it yet. I am just going by what is said here.

[Nabterayl]

How could an enemy model enter your Fortress of Redemption during deployment? As page 121 says, "Units can never deploy inside an enemy fortification, nor can they use pre-game abilities (like Scout redeployment) to embark in enemy fortifications before the first turn begins."

So the enemy can't deploy inside your Fortress of Redemption as a normal deployment, they can't Infiltrate into it, and they can't Scout redeploy into it. After the game begins they certainly can move into it, but pre-game it will never come up that part of your Fortress is occupied by the enemy.

[Magpie]

What I am saying what if you take a Fortress of Repedeption and an enemy model enters it making it an enemy fortification with open building slots you might can occupy.

I don't know cause I havn't looked at it yet. I am just going by what is said here.

That's why I keep pointing out that during deployment an occupied building only becomes a UNIT by that occupation.
There is no way to change what side it is on at that time, so what Nab says applies.

[chicop76]

Yeah I read over it and it seems like I was saying before your building can't get jacked.