Dark angels and the fallen

[Isaac Gutierrez]

I read in another conversarion that the fallen may not be the traitors to the emperor, but that the dark angels where the real corrupted angels and that was the reason why they hunt the "fallen", so this give an idea of a chapter of fallen angels who are actually loyal to the emperor.

I haven't put everything together, as I'm still doing some research, so I want to ask the community, what would the fallen be like if they where to make a chapter to face the dark angels?

My thoughts are that this Guys have been pursued by the DA for so long that they are tired of this, so began to gather other fallen angels and star waging war against the DA. Some kind of dark angels hunters. Eventually, they learned that Lion El'Jonson is still alive, but dormant hidden in the rock, but they would believe that the the DA have kept him sleep for fear of him telling the whole truth.

Also, I have the idea of including the watchers in the dark into this "chapter", probably this little fellas decided to tell the DA hunters that the primarch was still alive and provided help in the difficult task that would be rescuing him. Probably the Watchers are the ones who gathered the remaining "loyal fallen" (as I think this DA hunters identify themselves) and are aiding in this taks. Probably I would use some allies, especially to represent the watchers in the dark in a way that truly impacts the game?

So my questions are.
1: What do you think of this background for a "chapter"?
2: what codex could work better, CSM, SM, DA or BA?
3: what rules could be used for the watchers in the dark? Inquisidor with retinue? Chaos deamons? IG psykers? Grey knights?
4: finnaly, what would be a good name for the chapter? Dark Angels Hunters? Light Angels? Brigth Angels? Pink Angels? Fallen Angels? Or just "The fallen"?

I want to make this army, so I plan to use dark angels miniatures, but do something with the Simbols, to make it look as if they scratched them regecting what the chapter has become. I would use mostly terminators, power armour infantry and bikes.

Thaks a lot. By the way, im mexican, so forgive my butchered english

[sangrail777]

Before they where called the Dark Angels they where called the 1st Legion, so how about calling them the First.

If your gonna use be a DA player, I can't see a reason not to use a DA codex.

[whargoul666]

I like it, and I remember those rumors. And what about the Lion, are they keeping him sedated or are they restoring him to power; is he good or bad? And remember, it is the Watchers that are doing this, not the DA. Only one DA guy ever knows about this at a time. And, who's really in charge? The watchers seem to have a lot of pull as the custodians of the Rock.

I think you should look at the watchers as part of the betrayal. A space marine chapter serfed by mutants/aliens/deamons? If you want minions, go straight Inq or IG allies. As far as the codex goes, wysiwyg them out and it doesn't really matter does it?

[TB0N3]

I have this very same theory. And a doublewing Fallen army to match :cool:

[Isaac Gutierrez]

I think you should look at the watchers as part of the betrayal. A space marine chapter serfed by mutants/aliens/deamons? If you want minions, go straight Inq or IG allies. As far as the codex goes, wysiwyg them out and it doesn't really matter does it?

Good point, if I want to keep the idea of real loyalty to The Lion, probably I should drop the idea of using watchers. It does sound as if they had something to do with luthers betrayal, as they have been active in Caliban for a long time before the arrival of Lion.

What if his arrival actually jeopardized their plans, and they had to get rid of him, but are unable of destroying him, so that is why they keep him dormant...

Another hint of Dark Angels actually being tainted by chaos is that their greatest heores have names of daemons from christian tradition. Azrael, Belial, Asmodai, Sammael are all names for the devil or for daemons who, in christian tradition, are "fallen angels", so the real fallen are the DA, and that is the reason why they hunt with such a passion what they call "fallen" but are actually the ones loyal to the emperor. One reason to name the characters in this army with real angelic names as Michael, Gabriel and Uriel.

One more thing. Who is the person who knows that Lion is sleeping in the rock? Does hi has a name? May be, instead of using watchers in the dark, I could use him (or her) or a group of faithfull Caliban knights that know his secret. Does that person has a name?

[sangrail777]

Try this: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Dark_angels

also if you read the DA codex there are alot of answers to your questions.

Grand Master Azreal is the one who knows about the Lion and Luther (has actually talked to Luther)

[Isaac Gutierrez]

Nice... Well that gives me other objectives for this project. Either find out if cypher was taken prisioner by the DA, talk to luther and find out what he knows, as may be, he didnt repent after wounding lion, but the DA tell themselves that story to hide the fact that their leaders are worshipers of the ruinous powers. May be is luther the one in control of the chapter, and that is why Azrael has talked to him. May be he continued under the influence of chaos gods to tis day, and the whole chapter is following the orders of daemons (watchers).

The question that still remains is if the ones turning to chaos are not the Dark Angels instead of the fallen, may be I could include an alled contingent of grey knights to make them specialist in hunting watchers in the dark, as their origin cold be demonic.

Thanks for all of this. My mind just keeps rolling on the idea.

[Dalleron]

accordin to the new 'dex, not even the grand master knows of the Lion being on the Rock. He knows about Luther yes, but not the Lion. Only the watchers and the Emperor know the Lion is where he is. According to the new book.

The Bad guys running the show has been a theory I've had for a while.

[Isaac Gutierrez]

Thanks a lot for the help.

I think that my fallen chapter may have three objectives then.
Awaken the lion, as they believe him to be trapped by the watchers in the dark.

Kill luther, as they believe that he is running the show. He never repented, and the fallen know this to be true, and he is leading azrael behind the curtians and following the direction from the gods of chaos, almost surely slaneesh.

Rescue or find cypher and name him the grand master. It is rumored that cypher was taken prisioner by the DA, but it may be just a rumor, the fallen are looking for clues of his whereabouts.

Finnaly getting into shape. I think I would use space marines codex for this army, so I can use DA minis without the rules. Probably convert the DA signs to make them look as if they have been scratched or covered, to ilustrate the origin of my army and also their spite against the DA.

[Cpt Codpiece]

no the watchers are the lions chaos side! manifestations of his taint.
he talks to them in whispers and keeps their council above his peers and sons.








SPOILERS!!!! from 'the lion'

but the lion was a traitor and a coward. holding off till the war was won. if the emperor won he would claim he couldn't make it, if horus won he would try and kill him.
there would be no emperor but the emperor. is pretty much how he summed it up.
when he claimed t'chulka from perditus he gained a warp engine, machine linked to the warp, can teleport him or his entire fleet about in an instant. he used this to follow the nightlords fleet after the ambush in prince of crows. (t'chulka is still with the DA.... the have the accurate teleporting the warp cannon on the darkbudgie and the stasis grenades and such... all to do with time/space manipulation)

the whole lie about the calibanites and luther was konrad kurze lying to the lion to distract and goad him, true he was displeased with the actions of luther and the other dude (cant remember the dudes name now, but psycher who found the nuke), while true caliban was a demonic deathworld and its taint was strong, the uprising was not as damning as people make out. yes luther may have accepted help from the warp, but so too did the lion. and we all know the truth with 'the order' circles within circles truth within lies, the entire story of luthers return to caliban and his use of sorcery in the tower of angels could well be a hidden message about the lion using a warp engine.

cypher is the only true dark angel left, he is the only one who knows what happened and who exactly is hidden within the rock and why.


i am planning on a FW DA army, but am hanging off till they make them :) but right now im thinking MK II and MK III for marines with cataphracts as termies.. and the FW bikes but with converted MK II riders (as II is a lighter suit).
icons and such, DA always had the chess board and company markings they have today, but black not green. termies were black and all with SOLID red DA winged sword.

basicly i would run a marine heavy (almost C:SM list, or a troop heavy C:CSM) in truth if you are not using HH books then C:CSM will be the best to use a legion list as you can have the large blob tac squads and plasma havoc squads, just no fliers... well you could count a budgie as a helldrake if you wanted... wouldn't fit though.

re-read the questions at top after my rant :) a CSM list using the moniker "sons of caliban" or "the order"
if you were set on using watchers then CULTISTS :)
now you have me thinking of doing "the order" :)

[thelion]

i dont know some of it just dose not make much sence to me for the fallen to be the ones that are truly following the empor then why the fight with the night hunter? and why would they be swept away into the warp if they we still loyal?

[Dalleron]

because those two weren't doing anything of import in the HH series thus far.

And because chaos would just be being Chaos?

[G00dySmiley]

I don't know about all of the fallen but isn't cypher trying to get to the emperor to kill him swith the lion's sword so that he can be reborn as the starchild. seems like a complicated situation for sure to say one is right one is wrong but some of the fallen who have chaos influence are obviously tainted and those who do not have demon taint could be running because the dark angels are the ones who are no longer loyalists... lot of grey artea in both camps methinks

[Dalleron]

I think that was earlier fluff, involving the starchild. This has been pretty much ignored in recent editions. Current codex hints that Cypher is heading to Terra for absolution/forgiveness.

The one thing I don't get about the current cypher is that if he is from the HH era, would he not be wearing the black armour. Latest material puts him in green armour. Now it's either a boo boo on someone's part of its another person all together.

[Cpt Codpiece]

I think that was earlier fluff, involving the starchild. This has been pretty much ignored in recent editions. Current codex hints that Cypher is heading to Terra for absolution/forgiveness.

The one thing I don't get about the current cypher is that if he is from the HH era, would he not be wearing the black armour. Latest material puts him in green armour. Now it's either a boo boo on someone's part of its another person all together.

that is the point i have always disliked about cypher, if he has green he is a lionite not a lutherian... so that means either the lion was indeed a traitor and cypher broke ranks post heresy to get word top the emperor and carries the lion sword as proof of his province, or GW buggered up.... i know which one i follow hahaha

but the cypher of the HH was with luther on caliban...... maybe it was indeed the calibanites that chose the green armour, as a symbol of the forests that once covered it