Are big kits worth their points/pounds?

[Wolfshade]

We have seen an increasing number of large kits being released by GW and if rumours are to be believed these shall be continuing.

So there are two questions that I wonder, and they are both related, kind of.

1) Are the big kits priced correctly points wise?

and

2) Are the big kits priced correctly monetarily wise?

The cynic would say


GW is primarily a model maker, the whole point of the rule system isn't so that we enjoy playing games but as a vehicle for them to sell miniatures. Large/New kits are undercosted points wise given their efficiency at what they do, but are over priced so that you are encouraged to buy the miniature, because it is points efficient, but will cost you too much

The long viewist would say

New kits are always complained at for being over powered / under pointed, but when the codecii are all updated we shall see how it fits in in terms of balance. The price I don't mind as I will get many hours enjoyment out of

I think we would all like it if things were a little cheaper and I do not want this thread to dissolve into a rant about GW being over priced in its entirity, but instead I would rather this couched in terms of given the existing costs of miniatures (irrespective if they are too cheap/expensive) is the price difference between those smaller kits and these larger kits too much?

Also consider that when new products are launched into a market there is an exclusivity element to the pricing, however, after the intial splash there isn't the price reduction.

[Asuryan]

I love my wraithknight as a model an on the board and think it is well worth the money to buy and the points to field. The riptide is cheaper in both aspects and has so many upgrades in game and different pieces for some of them model wise, and is absolutely brutal in game.

[eldargal]

a) Hard to say. To take the Waithknight as an example I think the basic unit is priced well but the sword upgrade is obscenely overpriced when the sword adds little to nothing to the WKs offensive output when it is already S10 AP2.
b) Big, impressive models. If you like them they are worth it monetarily, if you don't, then no.

[jgebi]

well as someone who buys for looks first and game second I like them as in a nice case everyone sees this big thing comes over to look at it closer then they see your whole army also on the table theirs nothing like it

[Psychosplodge]

I'm not over enthused about either the riptide or the wraithknight. They're too close to toys rather than models. They don't have the same model feel that previous big kits like the baneblade or the stompa have.
They're certainly not priced at a point where they're of interest to me.

[eldargal]

Have you handled a Wraith Knight? They really feel nothing at all like a toy and have a lot of detail.

[Psychosplodge]

I've only seen one behind glass, not held one.

[Dave Mcturk]

this thread is getting disturbing... ;-}

talking abut handling ... i like the infinity models ... and have dozens of fantasy models in my 'eldar' army that are not GW ... but count as ... much prettier !

[Mr.Pickelz]

If you enjoy the model (IE, Building, Painting, Playing, etc...) then it's worth it's cost. Sure it would be great to get everything cheaper, especially with how GW's past price rises have occurred. But, after everything has been said, or typed, If you enjoy it, then it's worth it. :D

I personally can't wait for the day when GW makes a plastic Squiggoth and/or Thunderhawk, is it going to be worth it playing wise? Probably not, it'll die as soon as it comes in from tau most likely, but it will be pretty and it will look damn sexy with Orky and GK FW add-ons respectively. ;)

[Asuryan]

a) Hard to say. To take the Waithknight as an example I think the basic unit is priced well but the sword upgrade is obscenely overpriced when the sword adds little to nothing to the WKs offensive output when it is already S10 AP2.
b) Big, impressive models. If you like them they are worth it monetarily, if you don't, then no.

the sword upgrade is only 10 points and it gives the WK a re-roll and with the upgrade the shield, so not seeing how it is "obscenely overpriced"

[eldargal]

Because a re-roll is relatively useless compared to the other option that also gives a scattershield. Which is also overpriced. In my opinion the ghostglaive option should be free, you can have an AP1 shooting WK or a CC WK or upgrade it for a more versatile WK with a lot of S6 output.

Even 5 points like the Wraith lord would make more sense but why you would take the Ghostglaive beyond looks is beyond me, keep it plain or put the points in starcannons.

[Houghten]

the sword upgrade is obscenely overpriced when the sword adds little to nothing to the WKs offensive output when it is already S10 AP2.

I have a feeling this will come into its own in Apocalypse... already S10 and holding a +1 weapon or better? Here, have the Destroyer rule!

Not too long until I get to find out whether I'm right, either.


this thread is getting disturbing... ;-}

talking abut handling

Your mind doesn't have to go there just because it's nine inches of beautiful power.


the sword upgrade is only 10 points and it gives the WK a re-roll and with the upgrade the shield, so not seeing how it is "obscenely overpriced"

It's not just 10 points though, it's 10 points plus sacrificing two S10 AP2 Distort weapons.

On the note of which, I really don't get why there are exactly three configurations. Why can't it take a wraithcannon-and-shield, or a pair of suncannon? Or just jump around the battlefield punching things out with its fists?
And, while I'm on my hobby horse, why can't the secondary weapons be bright lances or missile launchers?


---


Anyway. Back to the main questions...

I'm not really sure about points-wise, but price-wise... I've noticed lately my priorities are a bit skewed, price-wise. I absolutely refuse to buy Nerf until I can find it marked down to half price or better, but I dropped £200 on wraith constructs without a second thought. It probably isn't worth it. But I keep buying anyway. The only reason I haven't got a Lord of Skulls yet (and I don't even collect Chaos, let alone play them) is I need to make some shelf space first.

[Sly]

1 Wraithknight is about equivalent to 2 Wraithlords, in price, points, and effectiveness. So if you don't have a problem with the point costs or price of a Wraithlord, I think that you should be okay with a Wraithknight.

2 Riptide is actually a bit cheap in price compared to running Crisis Suits or Broadsides to fill the same number of points, but I don't think it's as effective for the points. It's hard to be certain, though, because while it clearly falls far behind in firepower per point, it does have a lot better survivability and can advance towards the enemy, which is rare for units in the Tau Codex.

[Mr Mystery]

Depends on the player.

A Tinboy (non-painter) who games couple of times a month? Not so much.

A 'mainly painter'. Hell yes. Quite the project.

A 'balanced' hobbyist? Depends on their pocket.

Best thing about them so far is that whilst they are undeniably cool, they are from must have units.

[eldargal]

1 Wraithknight is about equivalent to 2 Wraithlords, in price, points, and effectiveness. So if you don't have a problem with the point costs or price of a Wraithlord, I think that you should be okay with a Wraithknight.
Poor argument, just because the Wraithlord is half the price of a Wraithknight and pays half as much for a ghostglaive doesn't change the fact the WL gets considerably more benefits from it without sacrificing anything to get it. For the extra points the WL gets +2S, AP2 and whatever else and still has tow shuriken catapults. The WL pays twice as much, gains a re-roll and loses two AP1 S10 D shots.
I like the ghostglaive and scattershield combination both aesthetically and for gameplay, it helps if an opponent is desperate enough to tarpit your WK. But it isn't worth the points. Better to save points and have a plain WK and use it's mobility to keep it save or spend the extra points on the sun cannon and scattermajig to get the same.

[Mr.Pickelz]

Coolest config imo, is Sword n' Board, but most effective is 1x scatter 1x suncannon and shield.

[Deadlift]

I'm primarily a painter and I can't wait to get my hands on a Wraithknight. It's going to be a joy to paint. I nearly ran out and got one on release but decided to hold of and treat myself after getting the rest of my Iyanden army done. The Riptide was lovely to paint and I had lots of positive comment about it. I hope i can do the same for the Knight and in this regard its worth every penny to me.

[magickbk]

A secondary concern to the big kits thing, is terrain. Terrain that used to effectively split a table LOS-wise may no longer do so. If you are a person who buys terrain as opposed to scratch-building, this could put you in line for some additional expenditure. I have one piece in-progress that should block line of sight for everything and was scaled to do so when it was started, but a Wraithknight can basically use it as a defensive position and shoot right over it.

[Lord Krungharr]

I am more of a modeler than a painter, so while I do appreciate a fine specimen of huge detailed model on my shelf that eventually has a nice paint job, if I can't game with it and have reasonable achievements on the battlefield, then I probably won't go out of my way to buy the model. Or if I do, it will be kitbashed together from cheaper pieces gotten elsewhere besides straight from GW. Being a Chaos and Daemons player, this is more easily done perhaps than with other armies.

Just for example, I can probably only use the Lord of Skulls in Apocalypse, so that makes me right off the bat less likely to want to own one. Secondly, without having seen the rules for the Lord of Skulls, and though I want one, I'd be much more inclined to use some old model tank of appropriate size and attach a Defiler our souped up Soul Grinder top to it, with good bitz all over for a good count-as appearance. 888 points and $160 is awful steep for a supposedly 9 hull point tank-walker at AV13.

Nothing feels so pointless as buying a huge model you can't play with usually and then if you do use it and it dies before shooting or moving. At least a Riptide and Wraithknight you'll get good use from, effective and more useful over time. That said, seeing as how nobody has the new Apoc rules, maybe they'll have 40k approved stamps on these big boyz?!

[LordGrise]

I am a modeler - I can't paint worth a hoot beyond basecoating. That said, my Riptide was fun as anything to build, I want to get another so I can play with it posing wise. I even have a couple sets of hands and sword kits on order from Kotobukiya, just for the modeling goodnes of it. ChapterHouse, maybe you might consider some add-on bits for the Riptide...? It's a lead-pipe cinch GW isn't gonna.

Game wise I haven't tried it out yet, but I find myself wondering why-in-Hades I can't have my most competent, most experienced pilot in the biggest, nastiest, and most versatile weapon system my army owns - whoops, there I go again trying to inject a bit more realism into the game. Sorry folks, I'll just go and use my AFSERK some more...

[Houghten]

ChapterHouse, maybe you might consider some add-on bits for the Riptide...? It's a lead-pipe cinch GW isn't gonna.

I reckon FW will, though.

[Pssyche]

Just finished after three weeks of painting.
Well worth it even without the Gaming Club Discount, and I've not even played with it yet.
Now to get the other two painted.

Roll on the Apocalypse...


http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa383/Pssyche666/IMGP0096_zpsc1b7e4c9.jpg (http://s1195.photobucket.com/user/Pssyche666/media/IMGP0096_zpsc1b7e4c9.jpg.html)

[troglodytesrus]

HAH YES! Very pleased to see another Eldar player who paints all the little bumps as gems or gives them individual colours. I always hated the GW boring way of not painting them but perhaps painting one or two as gems. It never made sense to me that some are gems but the majority aren't even though the look identical :s

Anyway, very nice contrast of light/dark mixed with the red of the gems, like it very much :)

[Mr Mystery]

I reckon FW will, though.

And with added quality...

Had a peek at The Lord of Skulls today (local GW has one) and I'm seeing opportunities for add on kits. The tracks are interchangeable (one design, repeated 4 times) and mounting points which look as though they're designed for as an yet unseen part....

[DarkLink]

Poor argument, just because the Wraithlord is half the price of a Wraithknight and pays half as much for a ghostglaive doesn't change the fact the WL gets considerably more benefits from it without sacrificing anything to get it. For the extra points the WL gets +2S, AP2 and whatever else and still has tow shuriken catapults. The WL pays twice as much, gains a re-roll and loses two AP1 S10 D shots.
I like the ghostglaive and scattershield combination both aesthetically and for gameplay, it helps if an opponent is desperate enough to tarpit your WK. But it isn't worth the points. Better to save points and have a plain WK and use it's mobility to keep it save or spend the extra points on the sun cannon and scattermajig to get the same.

In fact, one WK is cheaper than two WLs with guns. It's just as durable as the two WLs, it's much, much faster, and has awesome guns seeing as Lance weapons are easily available elsewhere and most vehicles are AV12 or less anyways so Str 10 is better in general.

[eldargal]

Right, the guns are a very, very good choice for the WK, the ghostglaive + scattershield option offers nothing but a considerable loss of threat range and firepower for a 5++ save which you should be able to get through cover anyway.

[Sainhann]

Well to me no they are not worth me paying $125 for even one.

Now the new Lord of Battles would cost me $175 just waiting for the one that will be over $200.

Now the cheapest version Wraithknight just has two shots and even at strength 10 they could just only glance a good % of the time. As for close combat only has 4 attacks at WS 4 so against most things will only be hitting it target around 50% of the time.

So no to both questions.

[daboarder]

seriously sainhann, there is plenty of empirical evidence out there explaining why wraithknights are awesome, Stop acting like they are a pyrovore.

[Gir]

Well to me no they are not worth me paying $125 for even one.

Now the new Lord of Battles would cost me $175 just waiting for the one that will be over $200.

Now the cheapest version Wraithknight just has two shots and even at strength 10 they could just only glance a good % of the time. As for close combat only has 4 attacks at WS 4 so against most things will only be hitting it target around 50% of the time.

So no to both questions.

I've had a Wraithknight win me a game, purely based on how intimidating it is (and the sheer amount of firepower it can absorb).

[DarkLink]

I've seen Wraithknights win several games. I've seen them perform well but not critically so in others. But I have never seen one fail to be worth its points, even in the games in which they die (which are pretty rare).

[Houghten]

I have a feeling this will come into its own in Apocalypse... already S10 and holding a +1 weapon or better? Here, have the Destroyer rule!

Not too long until I get to find out whether I'm right, either.

I wasn't. :(

[Stone Edwards]

After having really just gotten into 40k just in time for the Eldar release (I played a few years ago with a SW army but didn't get a lot of chances to play) I must say that my Wraith Knight is totally worth it in both cases. The kit was a joy to put together, the model looks awesome even with my modest painting skills, and it is pretty much ALWAYS worth its points even when it gets killed (which happens a lot for me because my opponents tend to get tunnel vision for it). All in all even though I probably won't buy another one I don't regret buying it at all.