Best Marine CC, fluffwise

[Crazy Jedi]

So my question is this, not on the tabletop, but fully fluff wise: Who are the most effective Marines in hand-to-hand combat, and why?

I figure your average Marine doesn't vary too much in ability among most chapters, a regular Blood Angel is probably as effective as an Ultramarine, but when you factor in training and other issues like the Mark of the Wulfen, Black Rage, Red Thirst, and so on, who comes out on top.

I always figured that Black Templars were effective in a more trained, technical way, while a Space Wolf or Blood Angel might fall into a frenzy because of their particular "issues".

So what are your thoughts and opinions on the matter, and of course the above three are just the biggest cc monsters I know of fluff wise, so feel free to bring in more.

[DarkLink]

Loyalists are easy. Grey Knights. If you count traitors as well, it gets more complicated.

[Crazy Jedi]

Realized I posted this in rules not background, if a mod could switch it I'd appreciate it.

[Anggul]

Grey Knights are the best the loyalists have. When it comes to non-special-daemon-hunting-marines though, it probably comes down to the type of combat and situation. The Space Wolves are known as the most ferocious in combat, but a Blood Angel succumbing to the Red Thirst or the Black Rage would probably be more ferocious, but that doesn't account for all Blood Angels. The Black Templars, as with anything they see as good, set about it with great zeal, but aren't necessarily more skilled at it. That said, none of the non-Grey Knight examples I've given so far are good because they're particularly skilled, but because of their ferocity and brutality. Blood Angels do have a greater affinity for close combat than most, so I suppose a Blood Angel is more likely to be good in close combat than a lot of other marines just because they're more likely to stay as an Assault Marine for longer.

There are many other named chapters other than the ones with codices though, so I couldn't say for sure without reading up on all of them.

[Wolfshade]

I think we also need to give honourable mentions to:

Vanguard Veterans, who fluffwise should be better than non-vets.
And I would say Sanguinary Guard are better still.

But Paladins are where it is at I think.

Somewhere in the mix will be the Honour Guards, better than Vets perhaps?
And company/blood champion.

[Tyrendian]

I think we also need to give honourable mentions to:

Vanguard Veterans, who fluffwise should be better than non-vets.
And I would say Sanguinary Guard are better still.

But Paladins are where it is at I think.

Somewhere in the mix will be the Honour Guards, better than Vets perhaps?
And company/blood champion.

I think we were talking about chapters, not specific units... that CC specialised veterans are better than regular dudes is very obvious...

Also, I wouldn't neglect Raven Guard... their Primarch is described as second in combat only to Angron and Horus (technically that would make him third to them... language is weird^^) - and while they may lack the ferocity of Wolves or BA, they tend to kill unseen, making their kills that much easier... and how easy it is for an individual to kill a specific target is at least one of the measures we should look at...

[Wolfshade]

I think we were talking about chapters, not specific units... that CC specialised veterans are better than regular dudes is very obvious...


As said previously, individual assault astrates regardless of geneseed must be equal in terms of melee prowess, it is things like the Mark of Wulfen, Red Thirst/Black Rage, possibly some templar vow, that makes the difference.

[Psychosplodge]

Loyalists are easy. Grey Knights. If you count traitors as well, it gets more complicated.

Grey Knights? Please. Grimnar took a captain plus a 1-2 apart as if they were cardboard cut outs didn't he?
I'd put it as a contest between Blood Angels, Flesh Tearers(blood angels), or Space Wolves.
The HH form a fluff point always seems to compare world eaters and BA when talking about CC mastery/ferocity. *shrugs*

[Wolfshade]

Grey Knights? Please. Grimnar took a captain plus a 1-2 apart as if they were cardboard cut outs didn't he?
I'd put it as a contest between Blood Angels, Flesh Tearers(blood angels), or Space Wolves.
The HH form a fluff point always seems to compare world eaters and BA when talking about CC mastery/ferocity. *shrugs*

What about the perfection of the EC?

[Psychosplodge]

They're just pretty boys playing at it...

[Learn2Eel]

I always thought it was supposed to be World Eaters, particularly with the Butchers' Nails thrown in.

[Tynskel]

Gabriel Seth.
He has a chainsword of Doom!

He's so good that he has a special rule about punching you in the face if you mess up.

[Anggul]

Grey Knights? Please. Grimnar took a captain plus a 1-2 apart as if they were cardboard cut outs didn't he?
I'd put it as a contest between Blood Angels, Flesh Tearers(blood angels), or Space Wolves.
The HH form a fluff point always seems to compare world eaters and BA when talking about CC mastery/ferocity. *shrugs*

The Great Wolf killing a captain doesn't make the Wolves better at CC than the Grey Knights. Rank-to-rank the Grey Knights best any other Space Marine. Kaldor Draigo (and I'm ignoring Ward's rubbish fluff, I'm just going on the fact that he's Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights) would beat up Logan.

They're Space Marines with harsher training, psychic power and fight the most fearsome foes.

I don't play them by the way, in fact other than a little Tyrannic War Veterans force (just because my first and main army is Tyranids) I don't play any marines, so this is from a non-biased standpoint.

[Lord Krungharr]

Sanguinary Guard vs Paladins is a tough choice, but I'd have to vote for the Sanguinary Guard (they have wings). But in full on hand to hand, I would vote Blood Angels of the actual Codices available. They get a whole bunch of buffs from other characters around the squads. I've seen 30 Death Company cut through and erase much of Grey Knight army in 3 turns (2 Storm Ravens took care of the psyfle Dreads and Razorbacks).

[DarkLink]

In game? Still Grey Knights. I'm still confident that there isn't anything in the game that can reliably beat a fully decked out unit of Paladins. Not that anyone plays them with all the buffs anymore, but no one plays 30-man Death Company units with enough upgrades to beat Paladins either.


Grey Knights? Please. Grimnar took a captain plus a 1-2 apart as if they were cardboard cut outs didn't he?
I'd put it as a contest between Blood Angels, Flesh Tearers(blood angels), or Space Wolves.
The HH form a fluff point always seems to compare world eaters and BA when talking about CC mastery/ferocity. *shrugs*

You're counting Primarchs? Because we're talking about the actual Marines here. And there really isn't any way you can read the fluff and actually think that Grey Knights aren't anything other than Space Marines, but better. And the new fluff from Ward actually tones down some of the basic Grey Knights.

[YorkNecromancer]

Blood Angels have Sanguinary Guard, who are basically flying terminators that land with pin-point precision, strike with their relic weapons, and cause terror to behold.

Grey Knights have Purifiers who don't move as fast, or have armour anywhere near as good, but do compensate with whizzy psychic powers.

Space Wolves have Thunderwolf Cavalry who hit like a truck and dish out the pain in large portions.

Dark Angels have Deathwatch Knights who are almost unkillably tough, and carry relics designed to lay waste to all heretics.

Ultramarines have Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield Terminators which strike legitimate fear into all.

Who's best? It's like comparing Ken or Ryu. Ken's Dragon Punch is faster and has more hits, Ryu's has a much better window of invincibility and hits harder.

Bottom line: it depends on your favourite flavour of chest hair. I'd go with Sanguinary Guard, just because Power Weapon equipped Jump Pack Terminators? That's pretty damn nasty.

[Psychosplodge]

The Great Wolf killing a captain doesn't make the Wolves better at CC than the Grey Knights. Rank-to-rank the Grey Knights best any other Space Marine. Kaldor Draigo (and I'm ignoring Ward's rubbish fluff, I'm just going on the fact that he's Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights) would beat up Logan.


Not just because he killed them, the ease with which he did...
They're over specialised marines. I'd bet on Grimnar vs the grand master. in fact I'd even bet on Blackmane.


In game? Still Grey Knights. I'm still confident that there isn't anything in the game that can reliably beat a fully decked out unit of Paladins. Not that anyone plays them with all the buffs anymore, but no one plays 30-man Death Company units with enough upgrades to beat Paladins either.



You're counting Primarchs? Because we're talking about the actual Marines here. And there really isn't any way you can read the fluff and actually think that Grey Knights aren't anything other than Space Marines, but better. And the new fluff from Ward actually tones down some of the basic Grey Knights.

Who mentioned Primachs? I mentioned Grimnar(not Russ) from was it *spoiler*Blood of Asaheim?*spoiler*
Now if we were doing primachs the thread would descend into anarchy and be locked too quickly :D


Blood Angels have Sanguinary Guard, who are basically flying terminators that land with pin-point precision, strike with their relic weapons, and cause terror to behold.

Grey Knights have Purifiers who don't move as fast, or have armour anywhere near as good, but do compensate with whizzy psychic powers.

Space Wolves have Thunderwolf Cavalry who hit like a truck and dish out the pain in large portions.

Dark Angels have Deathwatch Knights who are almost unkillably tough, and carry relics designed to lay waste to all heretics.

Ultramarines have Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield Terminators which strike legitimate fear into all.

Who's best? It's like comparing Ken or Ryu. Ken's Dragon Punch is faster and has more hits, Ryu's has a much better window of invincibility and hits harder.

Bottom line: it depends on your favourite flavour of chest hair. I'd go with Sanguinary Guard, just because Power Weapon equipped Jump Pack Terminators? That's pretty damn nasty.

fluff wise... the rules are pointless through new army creep

[SacredChao]

To add in some from the Traitor legions: Khorne Berserkers :P Nothing instills close combat skills like channeling the god of slaughter!

[DarkLink]

Who mentioned Primachs? I mentioned Grimnar(not Russ) from was it *spoiler*Blood of Asaheim?*spoiler*
Now if we were doing primachs the thread would descend into anarchy and be locked too quickly :D


Even so, Draigo's easily got him beat. But my point remains, I'm pretty sure we're talking about the chapter as a whole, not a chapter master versus another chapter's basic tactical Marine.

[Psychosplodge]

Vs. a captain. But I'm not convinced. Grey Knights are specialised Daemon hunters. Space Wolves are Marine hunters (at least the HH gives the impression they're the emperors enforcers). I'd still bet on The Rout.

[DarkLink]

Of the regular Marine chapters, yes, Space Wolves are the Marine hunters. Grey Knights are a step above normal Marines, though. They're pretty much loyalist cult Marine equivalents, with extra power entailed. Both the old Daemonhunters codex and the new GK codex is pretty much explicit that they're far more elite in pretty much every way.

And the fact that they train primarily to fight Daemons (and traitor Marines, don't forget that, they've always trained to fight all the forces of Chaos, not just Daemons), which are quite a bit scarier than mere Marines, is not an argument that they aren't good in hand to hand combat. Quite the opposite, really.

[Nabterayl]

The Grey Knights' elite status has never made sense to me, but I agree with DarkLink that the Grey Knights are clearly and consistently presented as the most formidable of the loyalist chapters in hand-to-hand combat. Even if we assume that we're talking about naked marines in a cage match, a scattering of things like the Black Rage or the Mark of the Wulfen throughout the chapter can't compare to every man in the chapter being a psyker who has trained to use his abilities in hand to hand combat. And if we aren't talking about naked marines, well, nothing beats every man having a force weapon.

If we're including traitors, then I think the World Eaters have to win in terms of skill. In terms of Weapon Skill, number of Attacks, Initiative, Leadership, or close combat-relevant special rules - all the things that represent actual skill in hand-to-hand combat - Khornate marines have always been as good or better than Grey Knights. In terms of formidability, though, Grey Knights still win. The god of dueling himself isn't as good as a storm bolter with psybolts in the mag and a force weapon - and Khorne might consider it cheating to boost your abilities using your psychic talents, but the Grey Knights have never cared about winning with honor.

[Tynskel]

Althought, Deathwing Knights would give Paladins a run for their money.

[Mr.Pickelz]

I think Deathwing would only kill 2 or 3 paladins, while the GK's would wipe the squad. More so if we're adding in IC's. GM with his grenade cache and psycannon, plus libby with divination, or draigo (the tank)
I don't know however what IC's one would put with the deathwing.. Belial I guess? maybe a Chaplin interrogator?

[YorkNecromancer]

fluff wise... the rules are pointless through new army creep

Ummm... 2007 called: they'd like their recieved wisdom back.

Seriously, people still believe that? In this day and age? 6th edition codicied are very well balanced, and the changes to rules in 6th have made Sanguinary Guard lethal, just because a 2+ save is so much more resistant to power weapons now. Back in 5th, the SG didn't get single svae against GK; now, they get a save against every Nemesis weapon except a daemon hammer. I'm not saying they're the best unit in the game, just that this idea of "new army creep"?

Well, every thread/article on BoLS about a new army since 6th has been about how the new army isn't broken, isn't as overpowered as people were hoping, and how multiple lists are viable with each new army. Seriously, the "new army power creep" hasn't been an issue since Necrons. And even they aren't as dangerous as they were at the end of 5th.

[Tynskel]

I think Deathwing would only kill 2 or 3 paladins, while the GK's would wipe the squad. More so if we're adding in IC's. GM with his grenade cache and psycannon, plus libby with divination, or draigo (the tank)
I don't know however what IC's one would put with the deathwing.. Belial I guess? maybe a Chaplin interrogator?

I am talking about Deathwing Knights not Deathwing. The Knights have a round of Str 10 AP2 vs Grey Knights. I am pretty sure they'll wipe out the squad with that.

[DarkLink]

Except that GKs actually get pretty good invulnerable saves in assault. Start with Draigo's 3++ and the Warding Stave's 2++, and move on to some Swords from there. On average dice, you'll kill some Paladins, yes, but the Paladins will kill the Deathwing Knights right back, and do more damage overall. Deathwing Knights are pretty similar to THSS Terminators, and GKs win combat with them pretty handily. Especially since, in reality, the Deathwing Knights will get shot before reaching assault. Unless maybe they're in a transport, but that limits the squad size to the point that they no longer compete with the Paladins, and the Paladins still get Overwatch.

I mean, sure, Deathwing Knights are one of the units that Paladins don't really want to be in assault with, but they don't lose to them in a vacuum. And in an actual game, the Deathwing Knights probably won't reach assault with enough bodies to do much damage.

[Tynskel]

I am impressed with the ability of the Warding Stave to be able to resist those hits... considering it is only 1 model...

[DarkLink]

As long as he's in base, you can allocate wounds to him, and basically just soak them up one at a time until you roll a 1. Of course, I always fail the first one, but whatever.

[Psychosplodge]

Ummm... 2007 called: they'd like their recieved wisdom back.

Seriously, people still believe that? In this day and age? 6th edition codicied are very well balanced, and the changes to rules in 6th have made Sanguinary Guard lethal, just because a 2+ save is so much more resistant to power weapons now. Back in 5th, the SG didn't get single svae against GK; now, they get a save against every Nemesis weapon except a daemon hammer. I'm not saying they're the best unit in the game, just that this idea of "new army creep"?


OK maybe 2007 did call, but what about the First line of the original post, So my question is this, not on the tabletop, but fully fluff wise: Who are the most effective Marines in hand-to-hand combat, and why?


:p

[Kevlarshark]

I am surprised the Carcharodons and Minotaurs have not yet been mentioned.

The Carcharodons actively hunt other marine chapters who turn rogue (or are close to it) and then butcher them to resupply their own kit.

The Minotaurs seem to have been created to act as the High Lords enforcers... they are able to kill off whole chapters of marines its implied that they may have had their geneseed modified to increase their aggression.

I don't really class the GK in the 'basic marine' category. However, their fluff seems to imply that they are efficient/ruthless fighters in close combat but do not seek it out, if the is a more efficient way of eliminating the treat.

Both of the above chapters not only seek out close combat but seem to prefer the brutality of close melee to the exclusion of other forms of combat.

[Nabterayl]

For me, the question changes a lot if instead of asking which marines are the most effective in hand to hand combat, you ask which is the most skilled. For effectiveness, Grey Knights have to win simply because even fluff-wise, every man has a force weapon. No other chapter, not even the Dark Angels, comes even within shouting distance of having that kind of hand to hand "firepower" in general distribution.

In terms of skill ... well, that's a different question.

[Kevlarshark]

In terms of skill ... well, that's a different question.

Indeed. I think without their fancy toys, the GK may well meet their match. Skill wise...
The Iron Knights are mentioned as being the only chapter to have won the feast of blades on two consecutive occasions.

The World Eaters and Emperors children are both enhanced in ways which benefit close combat.

[Nabterayl]

If we include traitor marines, I think the World Eaters have to win the skill contest. The entire World Eaters population is dedicated to, and blessed by, the god of skill at hand to hand combat, who is also the god of killing, and also the god of war. And lore-wise, Khorne doesn't bless you until you've already proven yourself worthy of that blessing. Put those together, and you have superiority in art and superiority in effectiveness - always remembering, of course, that that in terms of effectiveness at hand to hand combat, force weapons for everybody trumps even the God of Effectiveness at Hand to Hand Combat.

Who is most skilled in the loyalist population? I'm not really sure.

[DarkLink]

In terms of skill ... well, that's a different question.

No, seriously, I'm not joking when I say that the fluff is very explicit about GKs being better than everyone else. I mean, the way you become a Paladin is to strip off your armor, get dropped off on a random planet, and slay a Greater Daemon with your bare hands. Literally. The fluff spends a lot of time describing how much more rigorous and lengthy the GK's training regime is compared to normal Space Marines, and that applies to far more than the fact that all GKs are psykers.

[Nabterayl]

No, I get that, but the First Brotherhood is not the Chapter, and even paladins don't clearly win their membership through skill at arms. They kill a daemon herald unarmed, to be sure, but I doubt the Grey Knights would tell you that you defeat a daemon with your hands. I expect they'd tell you that your hands are merely an expression of the war in your mind - the form that the daemon spins out of thin air, that you take a tooth or horn from, after all, is not the daemon, and the point of the paladin trials is for you to face the daemon, not its avatar. And killing a greater daemon with nothing but your force weapon and the daemon's true name is impressive, to be sure, but again ... it's not clear that the prospective paladin wins through his skill at arms. In fact, I'm fairly certain he doesn't. Nobody human being, not even the mightiest of Grey Knights, is more skillful than a bloodthirster. Page 7 of the codex goes on and on about how Grey Knights defeat daemons with their minds, not their swords or their bullets.

As for the rest of the chapter ... yes, they're consistently described as more elite than space marines, and their training certainly has a higher washout and fatality rate. But whether that translates into preeminence in skill at arms depends largely, I think, on how much you can 40K-ify your disbelief. "Most elite" does not mean "best at hand to hand combat," after all. In 40K, it's not even clear what "elite" means with respect to skill - a space marine who has has four years of commando experience is considered more "elite" than a Guardsman who has been an infantryman for forty years, and a custodes who has never even been a commando is more "elite" than the space marine. The custodes and astartes are more "elite" in the sense that they are rarer, that they received better training, and that they are given preference in terms of gear ... but who is likely to be more skilled?

With respect to the Grey Knights as a whole ... what are their operational tempos? How do they actually train? How much fighting do their missions actually entail? When they do fight, how much of their close combat is actually done hand to hand? What's the expected lifespan of a battle brother? Those are all things that bear on how good the chapter, as a whole, actually is at fighting hand to hand - and I don't think they are things that we have very clear data on for any chapter. I don't disagree that the GK fluff clearly establishes them as more elite than other space marines, but more skilled at hand to hand combat? I think there's room for interpretation there.

A 20 year-old Grey Knight knows pretty much nothing about soldiering, never having done it before. A 20-year old in any other chapter has been soldiering for about four years. Similarly, although the Grey Knight may have superior training in how to fight hand to hand, he's never actually done it before. The space marine probably has. When it comes to soldiering, I'll take four years of doing it for real over an extra four years of training, however good, and I don't think hand-to-hand fighting is much different. So ... what about a hundred years out? How many missions has the Grey Knight now fought, and how much hand-to-hand combat (as opposed to mere CQB) has he actually engaged in? Are there chapters where an equivalently aged battle brother will have generally fought more, and/or fought hand to hand more? It wouldn't surprise me, though I don't think I could say which chapter(s) those are. And so forth.

[Tynskel]

Yes. Finally someone wrote the treatise that I have been too lazy to write.

World Eaters are definitely near the top.
Emperor's Children and Blood Angels must be close, too.

Emperor's Children, because of their excessive ways of perfection.
Blood Angels, simply because they are known to live for 100s of years beyond a normal space marine. That *has* to count for something. Not to mention, they spend much time training to keep their mind off the black rage.

[Nabterayl]

Blood Angels, simply because they are known to live for 100s of years beyond a normal space marine. That *has* to count for something.
See, I don't think it does - not when speaking of the chapter as a whole. If we knew that the average Blood Angel had hundreds of years more experience than the average space marine, that would imply something. But we don't know that. We know that some Blood Angels have lived for hundreds of years longer than average, and I think we know that if a Blood Angel doesn't die a violent death he can be expected to live for hundreds of years longer than average.

But of course, most Blood Angels do die violent deaths. We don't know anything about the average length of service, and I don't think average potential lifespan is a good substitute.

EDIT: Heck, doesn't virtually every space marine die a violent death? When was the last time we heard of a space marine dying of disease, or old age? There's that guy in Space Hulk, but ... that's all I can think of.

[Tynskel]

heheh, well, the implied meaning is that most Blood Angels are old. I believe the ages of the Terminators in Space Hulk are listed (granted, they are all veterans, but I believe almost all of them are older than Marneus Calgar). Even the 'young' terminator i believe is pretty old.


This is not to say that a lot of them do not die violent deaths. The attrition rate of Blood Angels is quite high, but that may be more due to the Black Rage, than their capabilities as a fighter.

[DarkLink]

No, I get that, but the First Brotherhood is not the Chapter, and even paladins don't clearly win their membership through skill at arms. They kill a daemon herald unarmed, to be sure, but I doubt the Grey Knights would tell you that you defeat a daemon with your hands.

I don't see why we should discount psychic powers. More importantly, the GK fluff states that more powerful Daemons can't be banished with just a true name or psychic powers, only weakened. A nemesis force weapon is still required for that particular quest. None of your points disqualify them as good fighters.



As for the rest of the chapter ... yes, they're consistently described as more elite than space marines, and their training certainly has a higher washout and fatality rate. But whether that translates into preeminence in skill at arms depends largely, I think, on how much you can 40K-ify your disbelief. "Most elite" does not mean "best at hand to hand combat," after all. In 40K, it's not even clear what "elite" means with respect to skill - a space marine who has has four years of commando experience is considered more "elite" than a Guardsman who has been an infantryman for forty years, and a custodes who has never even been a commando is more "elite" than the space marine. The custodes and astartes are more "elite" in the sense that they are rarer, that they received better training, and that they are given preference in terms of gear ... but who is likely to be more skilled?.

Considering that the GK codex states that a Grey Knight's primary weapon is his nemesis force weapon, not his firearms, I find it odd that you think it's reasonable that their eliteness applies to everything except hand to hand combat. Heck, the whole reason why they have wrist-mounted storm bolters on their left arm is precisely so it doesn't interfere with their main weapon.



I don't disagree that the GK fluff clearly establishes them as more elite than other space marines, but more skilled at hand to hand combat? I think there's room for interpretation there.

I think you're falling into the same trap as the people who claimed that GKs only ever fight Daemons. Before the new codex came out, I don't know how many times I argued with someone over that.



A 20 year-old Grey Knight knows pretty much nothing about soldiering, never having done it before. A 20-year old in any other chapter has been soldiering for about four years. Similarly, although the Grey Knight may have superior training in how to fight hand to hand, he's never actually done it before. The space marine probably has. When it comes to soldiering, I'll take four years of doing it for real over an extra four years of training, however good, and I don't think hand-to-hand fighting is much different. So ... what about a hundred years out? How many missions has the Grey Knight now fought, and how much hand-to-hand combat (as opposed to mere CQB) has he actually engaged in? Are there chapters where an equivalently aged battle brother will have generally fought more, and/or fought hand to hand more? It wouldn't surprise me, though I don't think I could say which chapter(s) those are. And so forth.

We're arguing over whether or not imaginary genetically engineered psychic super soldiers in powered armor carrying fully automatic rocket launchers are more or less elite in hand to hand combat. I don't think that a little logic trumps the writer's statements of 'they're the bestest ever'.

As to their operational tempo, considering how dire the need and how few Grey Knights there are, I see no reason why it would be unreasonable to assume it was at least as high or higher relative to your average Space Marine.

Your comparison is also a little flawed. A brand new Grey Knight is, according to the fluff, already one of the mightiest Space Marines in the Imperium. Compared to a Scout, Grey Knights win. Age isn't really relevant. GK training is much more strict, and so it takes longer. That's natural. But a noob Grey Knight versus a noob Space Marine isn't really even a contest. A GK with four years experience vs a Space Marine with four years experience is about the same. Again, I don't see why you're assuming that GKs are the most elite Marines, except in this one specific area despite the fluff that states that this one area is one of the primary focuses of their training.

Incidentally, particularly regarding hand to hand combat, training is more important than life or death experience, assuming it's quality training. I bet there are quite a few street punks who do a lot more actual fighting than an MMA fighter, but they don't train extensively and learn new skills and techniques and strategies the way the MMA fighter does. There are a lot of very, very hardcore fighters all over the world, and even our toughest soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines live lives of luxury compared to them. But being rough and tumble only gets you so far. It's the quality of your training that matters.

[Psychosplodge]

No, seriously, I'm not joking when I say that the fluff is very explicit about GKs being better than everyone else. I mean, the way you become a Paladin is to strip off your armor, get dropped off on a random planet, and slay a Greater Daemon with your bare hands. Literally. The fluff spends a lot of time describing how much more rigorous and lengthy the GK's training regime is compared to normal Space Marines, and that applies to far more than the fact that all GKs are psykers.

It also says they kill the emperors loyal daughters and bathe in their blood in a very kornate sounding way...



EDIT: Heck, doesn't virtually every space marine die a violent death? When was the last time we heard of a space marine dying of disease, or old age? There's that guy in Space Hulk, but ... that's all I can think of.

There's that salamander in their trilogy iirc.

[Nabterayl]

The larger point I'm making, DarkLink, is that we aren't ever actually told that the Grey Knights are the best hand-to-hand fighters amongst the space marines. We're told things like they're the mightiest, or that they're the most elite, or that their training is the most rigorous. None of that goes to hand to hand fighting, which is surely only a tiny slice of what makes an effective daemon hunting supercommando, just as it's only a tiny slice of what makes an effective supercommando in general.

You have some experience with what it takes to be an effective warfighter, I know - would you not agree that there's more to being an infantryman than marksmanship? If Elbonian infantrymen were better marksmen than American infantrymen, and somebody tried to claim that the Elbonian infantry is more effective than America's solely on that basis, I'd say we don't know enough to tell. How much better shots? Enough to make up for the superiority in training, doctrine, equipment, logistics, and support arms that American infantry probably enjoy? I doubt it.

We're told lots of things about the Grey Knights but very little about which factors contribute how much to their bestestness. I don't see how any of the things we know about them for sure require them to be the best martial artists in the space marines.

EDIT: Psychosplodge, I for one have never had a problem with the Blood Tide incident. Despite the name, the Grey Knights have never been paladins, or honorable, or chivalric. By any reasonable standard, they have always been an organization of undoubted evil. If they epitomize the space marine as space knight, it is only in that they wield more military and political power more cavalierly than other space marines. Personally I think they epitomize the space marine as sinister government agent more than anything else - like the Men in Black, but instead of neuralizing witnesses they just shoot everybody instead. There's nothing about being a monster that is inconsistent with being a good daemon hunter, or being a more "elite" supercommando.

[Psychosplodge]

NAb, I see your point, I was more criticising the actual fluff than the idea that they are an organisation where the ends justify the means. Just feels too chaotic imo is all.

[Kevlarshark]

NAb, I see your point, I was more criticising the actual fluff than the idea that they are an organisation where the ends justify the means. Just feels too chaotic imo is all.

Which is one of the reasons why I would not count them as the 'best marines' close combat wise... Its just not in the GK mentality to take a foe on in even 1v1 combat. If it looks like an even matchup they will most likely shoot their opposition, cripple them with mind bullets and poisonous grenades, then wipe out the stunned/injured in CC. Its a bit like saying the Night Lords are the superior close combat force, because they will sneak up on their opposition and kill them (with a knife to the back) before the poor enemy realise they are in a fight.

I honestly think the GK would struggle with psi resistant opposition...perhaps the Exorcists would give them a run for their money?

[Nabterayl]

Well, in defense of our favorite black magic-using government troubleshooters, I don't think that skill in hand to hand combat should be constrained to duels, any more than it should exclude psychic powers. Nor does it demonstrate great skill in hand to hand combat to only fight those who pose a reasonable challenge. The Grey Knights have it exactly right when they say you don't cross swords with a bloodletter if you can help it - you say, "Oh, are you a daemon of the God of Being Good at Swordplay? Good thing the Emperor has provided me this gun. <blam>"

What this really points out, I think, is that Psychosplodge was right to phrase the question in terms of "effectiveness." "Skill" in a killing art is sort of a chimera when you try to isolate it from all the other factors that influence successful killing. Whenever you do it for real, you stack the deck in your favor as much as possible - a swordsman who says, "No, I refuse to shoot my opponent and cripple him with mind bullets and poisonous grenades before crossing swords with him" is, obviously, going about the art of killing all wrong, and the more his swordsmanship is divorced from actual killing, the less representative it is of his skill as a killer. Yes, you train against evenly matched opponents, or even opponents who have an advantage over you, but only so that, if it all goes sideways and you can't get your customary advantages up front, you can still wade in and make the other guy buy it anyhow.

Of course, precisely because the best fighters will always strive to make the fight as unfair as possible, determining who is the most skilled fighter is sort of impossible. A good fighter will make the fight as little dependent upon his skill at arms as possible; a better fighter even moreso. So skill is, in a sense, kind of impossible to measure. But effectiveness - that you can measure. Who wins the most fights? That guy is the most effective.

[Kevlarshark]

Of course, precisely because the best fighters will always strive to make the fight as unfair as possible, determining who is the most skilled fighter is sort of impossible. A good fighter will make the fight as little dependent upon his skill at arms as possible; a better fighter even more so. So skill is, in a sense, kind of impossible to measure. But effectiveness - that you can measure. Who wins the most fights? That guy is the most effective.


In that case we should consider the Raven Guard for the Loyalists split between Alpha Legion and Nightlords for the Legions. The Alpha Legion for the meticulous planning to tilt the odds in their favour. But in terms of outright dirty fighting I think the Nightlords have it!

[Nabterayl]

Well, I think we ask who is the best at stacking the odds of a hand-to-hand fight specifically. Alpha Legion is good at dirty fighting, but I don't know that their particular brand of dirty fighting tends to culminate in "and then I cut you in half with my sword." More like, "and then I never have to fight you at all." Which is certainly more effective than a plan that culminates in swordplay, overall, but we aren't asking who's most effective overall. Stacking the deck by practicing swordplay all the time (World Eaters) may not be the best way to stack the deck overall, but it's probably better deck-stacking for a sword fight than practicing how to incite and support an insurrection (Alpha Legion).

Similarly, Raven Guard stack the deck (or at least, their signature addition to the space marines' array of stack-the-deck techniques) by sneaking around to beat up on people who aren't prepared for them. I'm certainly prepared to say that that's more effective than the Blood Angels' signature doctrine of "flying to the X," provided that both doctrines actually result in hand-to-hand fights with more or less equal frequency. But is it more effective than the Grey Knights doctrine of being motherf*cking sorcerers with motherf*cking sorcerer swords who teleport to the X? I'm ... not prepared to say that.

[Tynskel]

I would give Blood Angels a lot more credit than 'fly to X'.
You have to remember who the Hero of Armageddon was: Dante. For the first time in 10,000 years, there was a Space Marine in charge of nearly a Legion of Space Marines.

[Nabterayl]

I don't mean to discount the effectiveness of the Blood Angels as special forces, or even as CQB fighters. When it comes to effectiveness as special forces, I think the Blood Angels are pretty close to the top of the list - and Second Armageddon is a good example of why. It's to the credit of the chapter's overall effectiveness that "hit it with my sword/fist" is not particularly high on the list of ways to put their enemies in body bags.

I don't think they win for effectiveness at hand-to-hand combat specifically, though. When you do want to hit somebody with a sword or a fist, what distinguishes the way a Blood Angel plans? I think "fly [or drive] to the X" pretty much sums it up. Which is not a bad doctrine, or one that is inferior to infiltration in all circumstances, but I think we've proven in Iraq and Afghanistan that when it comes to literally getting within arm's reach of your target with maximum advantage, it's not as effective as infiltration on the whole.

[Kevlarshark]

But is it more effective than the Grey Knights doctrine of being motherf*cking sorcerers with motherf*cking sorcerer swords who teleport to the X? I'm ... not prepared to say that.

Tell that to the Thousand sons when the Wolves came calling.

I think the GK rely on surprise and shock, awe and personal sacrifice too much. The few occasions when they have been drawn into protracted battles like at the First war for Armageddon they have suffered horrendous casualties. Logan Grimnar's company who fought in the same battle, less so.

[Tynskel]

I think the only example needed is the Sin of Damnation...

[Nabterayl]

Well, in all fairness, they were only at First Armageddon because Logan Grimnar specifically asked for their assistance, so I don't know that I'd use that as a good example of Space Wolves being able to do what Grey Knights can't.

That said, I don't disagree with you that Grey Knights are not a top-tier chapter when it comes to soldiering. I don't think the Grey Knights would disagree with you either. DarkLink is right, of course, that Grey Knights will fight anybody incidentally, but if you just said, "Help, the Tau are about to overrun Kar Duniash!" the Grey Knights would say, "Meh, not our job, not our problem." They're daemon hunters with the skills of commandos, not soldiers with the skills of commandos. If you want an incursion of Chaos marines defeated, the Grey Knights are not the guys to call. If you have a bunch of Chaos marines in a confined and defined area and you just want them dead, then yes, take the Grey Knights if you can get them.*

But being a good commando, or even a good soldier, is not the same as being effective in hand to hand combat. And you could be the most effective guy in the universe at hand to hand combat, and still not be the most effective at close combat, or the most effective at assault, or commando-ing, or soldiering. The two things are related but one is such a narrow subset of the others that the relationship is pretty tenuous.

*Similarly, if you want an incursion of daemons defeated, the Space Wolves are not the guys to call. If you just have a bunch of daemons in a confined and defined area and want their forms dispersed, the Space Wolves can certainly do that.

[Nabterayl]

I think the only example needed is the Sin of Damnation...
I've never played Space Hulk, but my understanding is that that game does not depict even the Archangels as superior to genestealers in hand to hand combat. Defeating a horde of genestealers aboard a space hulk, or even killing a horde of genestealers in close combat, is not the same thing as being more effective a genestealer in hand to hand combat.

[Tynskel]

that's not what I am trying to represent. We are talking about Marine chapter superiority. The Blood Angels were superb in their handling of the Sin of Damnation.

Genestealers are considered one of the most feared close combat opponents in the Galaxy.

[Nabterayl]

that's not what I am trying to represent. We are talking about Marine chapter superiority. The Blood Angels were superb in their handling of the Sin of Damnation.

Genestealers are considered one of the most feared close combat opponents in the Galaxy.
Wait, what are you trying to represent? The OP's question was specifically about "effectiveness" in "hand to hand combat." Defeating a horde of genestealers is a great feat, but I don't see what it has to do with the Blood Angels' effectiveness in hand to hand combat.

[Tynskel]

Because you don't engage genestealers by shooting only. They *will* engage you in close combat.

[Nabterayl]

Sure, and when they do, according to Space Hulk, they will generally win, right? There's no shame in that (as you say, genestealers are among the most effective hand-to-hand combatants in the milieu), but I don't see how defeating genestealers through some unknown combination of close combat, hand-to-hand combat, and no combat is evidence that Blood Angels are particularly effective, compared to other space marines, at hand to hand.

EDIT: The Sin of Damnation incident, I think, is good evidence of the Archangels' ability to evaluate a threat as having superior combat capability, and formulate and execute a response to overcome it indirectly - the quintessential space marine skill. I think it's also good evidence of 1st Co.'s capacity to withstand the pressures of operating in close proximity to a threat that can only engage in hand to hand combat, which is an impressive feat. But I don't think it's evidence that 1st Co. is especially effective in hand to hand combat itself. All we really know from that mission is that the Archangels are less effective in hand to hand combat than genestealers, which doesn't help us if we want to know whether the Archangels (let alone their parent chapter) are more effective than other guys, who are also less effective in hand to hand combat than genestealers.

[Psychosplodge]

I think the GK are like how the adeptus custodes are described in the HH series, superb individual combatants. But they aren't trained to fight as part of a significantly larger force. As referenced in the Armageddon example above, they fought besides the wolves and suffered larger casualties, I'm assuming because it's outside their "comfort zone".

[Daemonette666]

Lucius the Eternal of course.

Then either Kharn or one of the Loyalist marines like the GK named characters like stern.

[Magpie]

I'm assuming because it's outside their "comfort zone".

I think it was more that they had to take on a Primarch Daemon Prince and his many minions and in doing so most of them died.

[Psychosplodge]

I think it was more that they had to take on a Primarch Daemon Prince and his many minions and in doing so most of them died.

Minor technicalities.

[Tynskel]

Sure, and when they do, according to Space Hulk, they will generally win, right? There's no shame in that (as you say, genestealers are among the most effective hand-to-hand combatants in the milieu), but I don't see how defeating genestealers through some unknown combination of close combat, hand-to-hand combat, and no combat is evidence that Blood Angels are particularly effective, compared to other space marines, at hand to hand.

EDIT: The Sin of Damnation incident, I think, is good evidence of the Archangels' ability to evaluate a threat as having superior combat capability, and formulate and execute a response to overcome it indirectly - the quintessential space marine skill. I think it's also good evidence of 1st Co.'s capacity to withstand the pressures of operating in close proximity to a threat that can only engage in hand to hand combat, which is an impressive feat. But I don't think it's evidence that 1st Co. is especially effective in hand to hand combat itself. All we really know from that mission is that the Archangels are less effective in hand to hand combat than genestealers, which doesn't help us if we want to know whether the Archangels (let alone their parent chapter) are more effective than other guys, who are also less effective in hand to hand combat than genestealers.

None of this refutes the close combat capabilities of the Blood Angels. They *had* to use close combat in this engagement, and they couldn't afford many casualties. They managed to do both.

[Nabterayl]

Yeah, but this isn't a thread about close combat. The OP asked about hand to hand.

EDIT: Obviously Blood Angels are good at close combat, and obviously 1st Co. Blood Angels are better than the chapter average, and obviously Blood Angels terminators are better than the 1st Co. average. But there's no way to tell for sure how much of that close combat prowess is due to prowess at hand to hand combat - in fact, Space Hulk implies that most of a Blood Angels terminator's close combat effectiveness, at least against a genestealer, is not attributable to his skill at hand to hand.

[Tynskel]

Well, considering that the Blood Angels spend much more time in training due to the black rage, compounded by the fact that they are longer lived, it would be a reasonable assumption that they are probably top teir of the Loyalist Chapters.

[Kevlarshark]

These traits are also shared with their successor chapters... But your theory is sound... long life plus a natural bias to close combat would indicate that the Sons of Sanguinius have an advantage in CC.

I still wonder if the rumours about the Minotaurs geneseed being created from World Eaters stock is true. If this was true their potential for close combat would be fearsome indeed. It is a shame that there is so little fluff about them. Practically all that exists is them smashing other marine chapters sometimes two at a time (Doom Warriors and Inceptors who they almost wiped out). They took on the (somewhat understrength but on home territory) Lamenters in the Badab war in a combination of fleet battles and "bloody ship to ship fighting" forcing them to surrender (how often do you hear of a Space Marine or Blood Angels successor surrendering?).

[Psychosplodge]

True not often, but on the other hand Lamentors are the whiny emo kids of the space marine chapters.