Sisters of Battle - Missing Apoc Formations...

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

So on the Games Workshop Apocalypse Formations page, Sisters of Battle appears to be the only army without an Apocalypse formation. What could this signify (if anything)? Are there Apoc Formations in the new book? Just seemed an interesting omission, at least...

[Kirsten]

I would say it means nothing at all personally. No point giving them new formations before they get a proper codex. formations will come when the book comes.

[DrLove42]

They didn't have any in the last edition of the rules either

[eldargal]

Exactly so, it signifies nothing because nothing has changed.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

What were the last rumours etc on Sisters of Battle? Last time I was in the loop, Jes Goodwin had suggested there were problems with the plastic kit in terms of the cloaks, and that's the last I heard of it. I tried to find a rumour thread here but I suppose that is buried in the annals of time now. I assume everything else is going to get an update before Sisters do...which means at least I have some time to finish projects and save some sheckles...

[Mr Mystery]

I think it was rumoured Jes Goodwin said that.

Remember, especially these days, 90% of rumours are fresh from someone's rectum, as they struggle to find something useful to say....

And usual caveat too..... This is not an indictment of those sites such as Faeit who are rumour aggregators. They just repost what's passed to them!

[eldargal]

Yep, Jes Goodwin mentioned technical difficulties regarding the drapery on their sleeves in late 2010 and again in 2011 I believe. Harry at Warseer also mentioned a SoB codex was in the works at the same time as Codex: Grey Knights or was worked on after or some such thing. This isn't unprecedented, Dark Eldar were worked on on and off for since at least 2005.

The Jes Goodwin rumour is solid, reliable forum member and an independent witness and another similar conversation at another event with witnesses.

[Psychosplodge]

Why don't they just make them glue on afterwards like marine shoulder pads?

Right problem solved, now where are my SOB?

[eldargal]

Because they have to look like flowing cloth while allowing for dynamic posing apparently, so sticking them on over the top would look odd if the arm is positioned such that the cloth defies gravity.

[Psychosplodge]

I don't want to hear problems, I want solutions.

[Mr.Pickelz]

yes... the prettier they are, the bigger the bonus when a Grey Knight kills one...

[Nosmo75]

Actually, the Sisters of Battle got two Apocalypse formations in White Dwarf UK 384 December 2011 (White Dwarf US 383), the 'Repentant Host' and the 'Purge Squadron'. They're very good for 50pts each, in my opinion. Particularly the Purge Squadron. =)

[eldargal]

Yes and there were a bunch of pdf formations on the website too I believe. But they weren't in the rulebook so making assumptions about the future of SoB based on a lack of formations in the new rulebook is absurd.

[StraightSilver]

I believe the Sisters of Battle info may have come from my chat with Jes on a cigarette break a little while ago.

The original thread is here:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?282133-Jes-Goodwin-at-Dark-Eldar-Launch/page4

But the SoB stuff unfortunately got buried by a lot of Dark Eldar excitement so the salient points are here:

"The problem with the plastic Sisters of Battle is indeed the cloth robes on the sleeves as has been stated before, but also the hair strangely enough. One of the particularly tricky aspects of the Dark Eldar ws getting the hair on the Wyches right, as if you have hair flowing in one direction it makes posing more difficult, as everything needs to flow the same way. This suggests that any new SOB figures we see will be much more dynamic. He also said that shoulder pads had been giving them grief, as they want flowing script on them and that is presenting problems too."

Bearing in mind that Jes told me during this chat that he was taking a break before wanting to start on Craftworld Eldar, but that we know from the concept sketches he was already working on them back in 2010 and they have taken 2 and a half to 3 years to release I reckon SoB could still either be on hold or reworked on.

We have Marines next in August or September, who knows what's after that as the schedule has been ramped right up.

But as has been said SoB didn't get much attention last time around so i wouldn't panic.

[Psychosplodge]

Helmets. There one problem solved. Next!

[magickbk]

Before Codex: Witch Hunters was released, there was an attempt made at plastic Sisters, with the issues mentioned. Back in those days GW was also using a softer plastic in a lower pressure machine, which was more prone to air bubbles, and so the thin parts of the models cast from the proof would break a lot. Anyone who assembled Kroot from the original release knows what I mean. In the end, they scrapped the rest of the plastics and just released the Immolator sprue with a bulkier gunner.

[Psychosplodge]

I had no problems with original Kroot. What problems did you experience?

[magickbk]

I had no problems with original Kroot. What problems did you experience?

It's difficult to explain, I'll try to get pictures tonight to illustrate. My Kroot came from the army box, which I drove down to the old US Headquarters in Glen Burnie to get as soon as they arrived, about a week and a half before they army deal was the launch of the Tau. When I was assembling the Kroot, sometimes a limb would just pop somewhere in the middle. Not break or snap or bend and crack, but just pop into two pieces. The problem was that tiny air bubbles were pulled into a cone shape inside the limb. When it popped apart, the cone could actually be used as a joint to glue them back together. I'll have to see if I have any of those parts left in my box to take pictures of, as well as pictures of the different plastics to show what I mean by that.

I saw the same issues with a number of releases that year-ish, only with thin pieces, though. After about a year, the plastic changed, and I didn't see that problem any more.

[Kirsten]

tiny air bubbles were pulled into a cone shape inside the limb. When it popped apart, the cone could actually be used as a joint to glue them back together. I'll have to see if I have any of those parts left in my box to take pictures of, as well as pictures of the different plastics to show what I mean by that.

will have to take your word for it as to the cause but I know from experience that the old undead skeletons were incredibly prone to that

[legalsmash]

I believe the Sisters of Battle info may have come from my chat with Jes on a cigarette break a little while ago.

The original thread is here:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?282133-Jes-Goodwin-at-Dark-Eldar-Launch/page4

But the SoB stuff unfortunately got buried by a lot of Dark Eldar excitement so the salient points are here:

"The problem with the plastic Sisters of Battle is indeed the cloth robes on the sleeves as has been stated before, but also the hair strangely enough. One of the particularly tricky aspects of the Dark Eldar ws getting the hair on the Wyches right, as if you have hair flowing in one direction it makes posing more difficult, as everything needs to flow the same way. This suggests that any new SOB figures we see will be much more dynamic. He also said that shoulder pads had been giving them grief, as they want flowing script on them and that is presenting problems too."

Bearing in mind that Jes told me during this chat that he was taking a break before wanting to start on Craftworld Eldar, but that we know from the concept sketches he was already working on them back in 2010 and they have taken 2 and a half to 3 years to release I reckon SoB could still either be on hold or reworked on.

We have Marines next in August or September, who knows what's after that as the schedule has been ramped right up.

But as has been said SoB didn't get much attention last time around so i wouldn't panic.

I shall heartily laugh if and when they get squatted.

I'd love to see them at least get an expansion update, so you can use units of repentia, witch hunters, etc. along with allied contingents, but given how they did when their models were released in 04, I'm not holding my breath for great development on "Zounds new codex and models" front.

[Morgrim]

I don't think it's possible to Squat them, they're embedded too deeply in both the Black Library fluff and especially in the Dark Heresy setting. But removing them as an independent gaming army? Yeah, unfortunately I could easily see them being relegated to a unit or two in an Inquisition book.

[Cpt Codpiece]

i have some of those kroot with the dodgy joints :) i had some eldar guardians from roughly the same time that i was converting, and the knees/thighs had weird bubbles on the insides.
ill see if i can get a one to pop and get a pic :) they are just sitting in my drawer

[Mr.Church]

I honestly think they have already been quietly squatted, but not in the same dropped off the face of the earth like the squats squatted.

They got a small, limited, hard to get a hold of codex leaflet. They're still a legal army just a background one that will quietly never be updated again. And once the metals are all sold off they'll just drop excuses and brush offs to the few SoB players till they get forgotten.

[daboarder]

people said the same about dark eldar,


And then they out sold marines.

Give em time, GW know that people have been waiting for plastic sisters for ages.

[Mr.Church]

Yeah, but they never purposely made the DE rules hard to get. The fact that GW wants people to not be able to get the rules at all and downplay that the models exist just speaks volumes to how much they want gamers to "forget" the SoB.

[daboarder]

keep telling yourself that mate.

I'm more of the opinion the GW would want to reduce the number of "risky" releases each year.

DE was a successful risk.

The Necron re-boot would have been the next "risk"

Then we have tau, who were popular when they we're initially released but had been left to "rot" for a number of years.

SoB will get their book, they are regularly asked about at conferences and GW knows that the kits are the only thing holding them back from selling well.

[eldargal]

We had people right up to the first DE photo leaks saying they 'knew' DE were being squatted. They said this in spite of Jes Goodwin talking about working on them in an interview. It was bollocks with DE and it is bollocks with SoB.


As daboarder says Dark Eldar, Necrons and Tau were all low selling, risk armies that have seen recent updates. Grey Knights too, with an a mostly metal range and old rules. SoB will have their turn.

[daboarder]

I know that about half my gaming group is just waiting for plastic sisters.

Personally I'd have picked up more of the metal ones already, but I want to do a Valkyrie army so I really need to wait for plastic. I wouldn't be surprised to see them some time next year, interspersed with the 5th ed codexes.

[eldargal]

Yep, I have significant funds set aside for a massive purchase of SoB plastic when it comes about. I also know all six of brothers and another half dozen or so at least of my game club are waiting on plastic SoB. Given how often GW get asked about them at events and whatnot I think they would have some idea of this too.

[GrauGeist]

I don't think it's possible to Squat them, they're embedded too deeply in both the Black Library fluff and especially in the Dark Heresy setting.

But removing them as an independent gaming army? Yeah, unfortunately I could easily see them being relegated to a unit or two in an Inquisition book.

Doesn't the Fluff say that Sisters blood is tactically useful? Instead of being eaten by Nids, they could be bled dry by GKs.

Very possible, and as there are only 2 model types (foot and jump), as a single unit entry, it's not hard. Look what happened to the Last Chancers. Or Dogs of War, which had far more model types.

[daboarder]

Yep, I have significant funds set aside for a massive purchase of SoB plastic when it comes about. I also know all six of brothers and another half dozen or so at least of my game club are waiting on plastic SoB. Given how often GW get asked about them at events and whatnot I think they would have some idea of this too.

I think the funny thing was that at the last conference I'd heard they made a statement before the conference that no there we're no plans to get rid of any current codex and that all armies would get a codex, BEFORE anyone had a chance to ask about sisters.

bout the only thing in the current range I'm going to grab is the exorist, I love that thing, totally the embodiment of 40k.

[eldargal]

The exorcist is lovely, though it brings us to another reason why SoB were unlikely to get a formation; The exorcist is a metal-plastic hybrid GW are unlikely to promote over plastic/Finecast with it's lower material costs. So what does that leave SoB with? An all metal, ridiculously expensive infantry formation or a formation of dedicated transports?:rolleyes:

[daboarder]

A tri-immolator formation?

[magickbk]

Many people also forget that Sisters ended up with a WD/Chapter Approved army list only before Codex: Witchhunters came out, and that at one point even the Blood Angels had a WD list. I think GW has proven itself with the Dark Eldar release, I'm sure when they get around to it, the Sisters will have a whole pile of ridiculous stuff none of us are thinking about. Imagine how useful plastic Penitent Engines will be for conversions!

[Wolfshade]

We'll just have to see what happens over teh next 2 years/

[Necron2.0]

Well GW better get off their butts vis–à–vis the Sororitas or else someone like Chapter House will beat them to the punch ... AGAIN.

[Magpie]

Well GW better get off their butts vis–à–vis the Sororitas or else someone like Chapter House will beat them to the punch ... AGAIN.

Probably why they are keeping the Codex under wraps until they are ready to release things. Point fingers at CHS not GW for that one.

[StraightSilver]

I think the problem lies when you look at the sales figures for the various 40K armies.

This has previously been the deciding factor on what gets redone when which is why Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines and Eldar used to be updated fairly regularly.

However what seems to never be taken into account is the age or quality of the range.

Dark Eldar sales had dropped off significantly and so were put right at the back of the schedule (in ffact Jes told me he had to fight tooth and nail to convince the higher ups they should get a reboot), but this is mainly due to the fact that the figures were so old and didn't fit the rest of the 40K range at the time.

At the moment the easiest thing for GW to do is update best selling ranges by adding new kits.

There are exceptions, Dark Eldar being the obvious one that need a complete reboot because their core plastic troops choices just simply weren't selling.

However these type of reboots are risky so I suspect that if they are going to take a gamble they have to minimise their risk by ensuring the new figures are guaranteed to sell, and that means making sure they are very good.

I get the impression that the plastic Sisters weren't up to scratch and so they are still being worked on.

This doesn't mean they aren't coming, just that they will come when they are ready, but they should be very good.

[lattd]

I think the ramped up production allows a them to mitigate the risk, as well as this they seem to be coming to the end of there restructuring period so it will be interesting to see what happens.

[eldargal]

I think the success with Dark Eldar, Necrons, Grey Knights and latterly Tau must have illustrated that doing an army justice will make it sell. Dark Eldar being the break through as it was the first. Factor in that other armies, notably Space Marines, sell consistently well helps subsidize the redevelopment of other armies when they need it.

[Wolfshade]

If theya re going to do something I would rather wait and get them to do it properly, with a complete range and pretty models rather than some rash job only to be revised in the short term.

[eldargal]

Exactly, look at Dark Eldar. They took six or seven years and the result was their finest plastic range to date, in my opinion and that of many others.

[Wolfshade]

Eaxctly, the new raiders for instance with those sials is brilliant.

I think the other thing to consider is that they are having to basically re-invent them, after all before hand they were basically female space marines with a clumsy (IMO) act of faith.

So they need to develop them so it isn't this is the SoB Rhino, SoB Tactical Squad, SoB Assault Squad etc.

I would like to see them slightly more arcane and gothicy looking, but hopefully slightly better done than some of that DA stuff.

Let alone try and figure out the games mechancis and stuff like this.

[eldargal]

I'm not sure they need to be re-invented so much as follow the artwork aesthetically (very Gothic Baroque).

[Wolfshade]

Well yes and no, I think in the art they are well defined, but the models don't seem to fit that style. So the models need re working to match the art better.

What I was thinking with the re-inventing them was more how they play or structure as they seem too spacemariney(TM) for my liking

[eldargal]

Yep that's what I meant, the artwork in books and whatnot has evolved as the models haven't and that needs to be changed.

I think focusing on their role as a close range shooting and anti-assault army would work. Short range weaponry, but powerful, lots of flamers to help when assaulted. Maybe an Act of Faith that let's flamers use a template for Overwatch rather than D3 hits. Whatever, I'm sure they will think of something.

[chicop76]

It's difficult to explain, I'll try to get pictures tonight to illustrate. My Kroot came from the army box, which I drove down to the old US Headquarters in Glen Burnie to get as soon as they arrived, about a week and a half before they army deal was the launch of the Tau. When I was assembling the Kroot, sometimes a limb would just pop somewhere in the middle. Not break or snap or bend and crack, but just pop into two pieces. The problem was that tiny air bubbles were pulled into a cone shape inside the limb. When it popped apart, the cone could actually be used as a joint to glue them back together. I'll have to see if I have any of those parts left in my box to take pictures of, as well as pictures of the different plastics to show what I mean by that.

I saw the same issues with a number of releases that year-ish, only with thin pieces, though. After about a year, the plastic changed, and I didn't see that problem any more.

Explains a lot. Mainly the rifles and the arms will do this. I have to re glue a lot of kroot over time. Also their shape makes it rather difficult to transport them. I have figured out how to transport them, but have to rebuy more foam from the learning curve.

[Apollinarius]

Because they have to look like flowing cloth while allowing for dynamic posing apparently, so sticking them on over the top would look odd if the arm is positioned such that the cloth defies gravity.

This isn't the first time they had cloth...

Besides, if they just make the Sisters with cloaks Finecast, we can just reposition them how we like.

I'm really eager for some new SoB miniatures that look a bit less like IG in black armor. Their power armor is supposed to be on par with Space Marines' gear but the SM miniatures look much nicer.

[Apollinarius]

I think focusing on their role as a close range shooting and anti-assault army would work. Short range weaponry, but powerful, lots of flamers to help when assaulted. Maybe an Act of Faith that let's flamers use a template for Overwatch rather than D3 hits. Whatever, I'm sure they will think of something.

SoB really don't need a rules change. They fit into 6ed really well. Ideally they'd get an update with a custom warlord table, add a new fancy walker and flyer and leave everything else intact. I'm mostly worried that any changes would make Celestine less awesomely fun to use.

[Apollinarius]

Eaxctly, the new raiders for instance with those sials is brilliant.

I think the other thing to consider is that they are having to basically re-invent them, after all before hand they were basically female space marines with a clumsy (IMO) act of faith.

So they need to develop them so it isn't this is the SoB Rhino, SoB Tactical Squad, SoB Assault Squad etc.

I would like to see them slightly more arcane and gothicy looking, but hopefully slightly better done than some of that DA stuff.

Let alone try and figure out the games mechancis and stuff like this.

I really like their place. They had SM offensive stats with IG-ish defensive stats. As a result, you could have more models (and heavier firepower) than what you'd have if you just fielded Space Marines, without having to pay for excessive toughness on units that won't get hit (or get wounded on 2+ anyway).

The Acts of Faith were horrible from a gameplay perspective, a bit like the current Warp Storm table, but they are great from a fluff perspective. They cause you to do some pretty crazy things - that Bloodthirster will slaughter the Repentia, but wait, they don't get removed until after they attack, so you kill him right back.

Sometimes you really find yourself praying to the Emperor :) The experience of playing a SoB army is a lot more immersive than any other I've seen.

[Arkhan Land]

Many people also forget that Sisters ended up with a WD/Chapter Approved army list only before Codex: Witchhunters came out, and that at one point even the Blood Angels had a WD list. I think GW has proven itself with the Dark Eldar release, I'm sure when they get around to it, the Sisters will have a whole pile of ridiculous stuff none of us are thinking about. Imagine how useful plastic Penitent Engines will be for conversions!

The other day I was also re-reading th eold harlequins army list after I read the new harley section in the recent codex, the axe swings both ways I would not be shocked if somehow the sisters end up as mega imperium elites only

[GrauGeist]

The Acts of Faith were horrible from a gameplay perspective, a bit like the current Warp Storm table, but they are great from a fluff perspective.

Not nearly as good as the old CWE Alaitoc Ranger table...

But are you proposing an Acts of Faith table for Sisters as well? Oh, how I'd love to watch such a game. SIMULTANEOUS RAGE-QUIT!

[daboarder]

Realistically Acts of faith have never been more complicated than IG orders or Tau marker lights.

[DarkLink]

SoB really don't need a rules change. They fit into 6ed really well. Ideally they'd get an update with a custom warlord table, add a new fancy walker and flyer and leave everything else intact. I'm mostly worried that any changes would make Celestine less awesomely fun to use.

They need a rules expansion. And an Act of Faith system that isn't terrible.



But are you proposing an Acts of Faith table for Sisters as well? Oh, how I'd love to watch such a game. SIMULTANEOUS RAGE-QUIT!

Daemons with Warp Storm vs Sisters with Acts of Faith. Best game EVAR.

[eldargal]

This isn't the first time they had cloth...

No one said it was.:rolleyes:

[Necron2.0]

Well GW better get off their butts vis–à–vis the Sororitas or else someone like Chapter House will beat them to the punch ... AGAIN.
Probably why they are keeping the Codex under wraps until they are ready to release things. Point fingers at CHS not GW for that one.

Naw, the only one to blame is GW. I mentioned CHS, but they are not the only ones getting ready to release Sororitas proxies. If Raging Heroes releases their TGotG series before GW gets the Sororitas out, then I for one won't be buying any Sororitas.

[Kamin_Majere]

While Raging Heroes Sisters of Eternal Mercy will definitely be gracing my painting table in huge quantities, I hate that GW isn't doing more with Sisters of Battle, even as old as the sculpts are they are some of the best models GW has ever produced and years and years ahead of their time

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Haha i already have 4 Excorsist's with pipe organs, absolutely a great tank..except need a +1 strength, as for Penitant Engines, well 6 of those already too. But would like to add a few plastic ones one day.

As for saying they don't need anything?? have you looked at what little wargear we have left out of the codex after the last update??

[Mr Mystery]

Possibly fuel to the fire.....

Has Jes Goodwin been up to much recently? I know he's had a hand in the Eldar re-do...but that appears to have been in concert with a protege.......

Significant?

[StraightSilver]

Last time I spoke to Jes he told me he would be spending significant time learning about CAD and its applications to plastic modelling.

There is a lot to learn and I think we are already seeing some of its benefits not only with the complexities of the new kits but also in the amount GW can now squeeze onto a frame.

Jes' prime role now is as head of plastics development, so although he does still design and create new kits his main role is research and development of new techniques which he then trains other sculptors in.

So although he may have been less involved in the Eldar and Space Marine kits he has been teaching other sculptors how to get the most out of CAD design.

He said the biggest breakthrough was being able to sculpt from 3ups to 2ups which makes much larger kits now possible.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

StraightSilver has it right. Jes is in more of an oversight and direction role these days, although he still has a direct hand in things - the Wraithknight design is his, and he also designed the new plastic Farseer.

It's all a collaborative effort, anyway, like army book writing is. The Citadel Hall of Fame entry for Urien Rakarth notes how his design was a back and forth between Juan Diaz in Spain (who did most of it) and Jes in Nottingham, who started him out with the concept sketches, and right at the end sorted out a couple of issues with the tentacles. :)

[JMichael]

Been playing/collecing SoB since their first release in 2nd edition and am lucky to have loads of Battle Sisters, which I think is key.
My Sisters stomp in 6th edition and are near undefeated (both in league and tournament).
They only army I have trouble with are horde Tyranids (so many...so fast...)

I prefer the WD codex to the old one, but agree they need wargear options. And perhaps some other options as well, just to have more variety.
There are only 1-2 lists that I feel are competitive, and they are identical expect for Seraphim or no Seraphim.

[DarkLink]

Haha i already have 4 Excorsist's with pipe organs, absolutely a great tank..except need a +1 strength

If it were straight up 4 shots it would be super-awesome.

[eldargal]

From Enter the Citadel:

Every army is getting worked on and will be updated in time
The question was specifically about SoB.