Terran Origins of the Death guard - HELP!!!

[Bigred]

I'm loving the backstory and origins of the various Legions and what it tells us about their physical appearance, and cultural tendencies.

Here are some key phrases used in the Terran Origin story of the XIVth Legion - the Dusk Raiders (later Death Guard). Help me place them all you researchers:

"were drawn from the ancient and warlike clans of Old Albia"
"drawn from Old Albia's towering soot-blackened Castram-cities"
"Old Albia, towering amid the northern Atlan wilderness"
"the Emperor spoke to the warlords' parliament"
"the Ironsides of Old Albia"
"a breed of relentless warlords and soldier-scientists"
"the Albians met the Emperor's Thunder Regiments with their own batallions of steam-belching proto-dreadnoughts and armoured Ironsides soldiers"

So where is that?

My guess is either the British Isles, or Europe, possibly France... What do you think based on the words used?

[Wolfshade]

Albia is a corruption of Alba, Albion, amongst the oldest names for British Isles

From wiki:
Albion (Ancient Greek: Ἀλβίων) is the oldest known name of the island of Great Britain. Today, it is still sometimes used poetically to refer to the island. The name for Scotland in the Celtic languages is related to Albion: Alba in Scottish Gaelic, Albain in Irish, Nalbin in Manx and Alban in Welsh/Cornish/Breton. These names were later Latinised as Albania and Anglicised as Albany, which were once alternative names for Scotland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albion

Reference to clans highlights the gaelic root, c.f. Scottish clans.
Parliament - the current government is through a parliament.

Atlan is a corruption of Atlantic, as in located in the Atlantic ocean, but IIRC te oceans have boiled off so within the atlan wilderness would make sense.


The one I am having issues is with "Castram-cities", the only thing that I am coming up with is the portugues verb to castrate which I am not sure if it does make sense

[Kirsten]

also the Ironsides were Cromwell's troops in the English Civil War

[Wolfshade]

also the Ironsides were Cromwell's troops in the English Civil War

Are you sure, I thought this was Ironside:
http://public.wsu.edu/~delahoyd/shakespeare/ironsideburr.jpg
Pro-tip: You're holding it wrong

[Bigred]

did some digging in the OED

AlbiOn : the references back to the British Isles as far back as 900AD

AlbiAn : a geological reference to a part of France

hmmm...

[Kirsten]

definitely more british references than french there though.

[Wolfshade]

No, not quite.

It is a geological reference point proposed by a Frenchman named after the Aube in France. It is a subdivision of Cretaceous period. But there are locations of it all over.

http://paleodb.org/cgi-bin/bridge.pl?action=displayInterval&interval_no=118

[Kirsten]

given that it is still thousands of years in our future clearly the current military sharing taking place between britain and france continues and we end up as one nation. with britain in charge, obviously...

[Augustusng]

The one I am having issues is with "Castram-cities", the only thing that I am coming up with is the portugues verb to castrate which I am not sure if it does make sense

If I had to guess I'd say it's from the Latin word "castrum," meaning a fortified military camp. Actually, many cities in England were Roman camps to begin with: generally the ones that end in "chester," which probably comes from "castrum." So I think that's more evidence for Great Britain.

[T-ORK-amada]

Have you thought about the Republic of Albania? Refers to the greeks and Macedonians (scientists/warriors) Their flag is a double headed eagle. In Medieval Greek, the country's name variants Albanitia, Arbanitia. Also Ironsides is the name of the 1st armored division that was sent to Albania in WWII.
Atlan could reference Atlantis, which some theorize that was off the coast of Albania. With other fluff that indicated that the oceans had shrank to about 1/10th of the original size, that would mean that Atlantis would now be above water. thus having cities "towering over the wilderness of Atlan"

[Kirsten]

Atlan could reference Atlantis, which some theorize that was off the coast of Albania. With other fluff that indicated that the oceans had shrank to about 1/10th of the original size, that would mean that Atlantis would now be above water. thus having cities "towering over the wilderness of Atlan"

true, could also be the Atlantic ocean though, for the same ocean shrinking reason

[Wolfshade]

I dislike the Albanian theory, it only started to be known during the medievel period and more comonly with a -tia ending.

With it being landlocked it can't tower amid the Atlan wastes. It is part of the same euroasian plate that contains the imperial palace

Also, if we consider a map of the old warhammer world, it is very much a contorted world map.

There, of the coast of Bretonnia is a place called Albion:
http://whfb.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/thumb/7/73/AlbionStormWarriors.jpg/300px-AlbionStormWarriors.jpg
Now while I completely acknowledge that the old world and 40k's terra are seperate locations they are clearly meant to be symbolic of our earth. The writters are of common heritage and there is a lot of crossover.
Finally, (and it is a weak argument) with the authors being English it is most likely that the only people able to stand against the thunderwarriors and being enfolded peacefully being also of "english" origin.

[Cpt Codpiece]

"were drawn from the ancient and warlike clans of Old Albia"
as mentioned Albion is the british isles

"drawn from Old Albia's towering soot-blackened Castram-cities"
again as mentioned "castrum" refers to the castle/fortress cities of England, which were and still are on the old cities, soot grimed from the industrial age with coal. on a side note my home town in its true old name is Novacsatria.... Newcastle.

"Old Albia, towering amid the northern Atlan wilderness"
yeah Albion sits in the atlantic and north seas

"the Emperor spoke to the warlords' parliament"
we have the parliament houses in London and there is another quote from corax where the password for the gene vault is a message in London.

"the Ironsides of Old Albia"
as mentioned civil war

"a breed of relentless warlords and soldier-scientists"
well this could well be a reflection on our warmongering PM's of recent years.... you know the war criminal blair and the terrorist funding cameron. but then bush and obama are no different... hand in hand if you will

"the Albians met the Emperor's Thunder Regiments with their own batallions of steam-belching proto-dreadnoughts and armoured Ironsides soldiers"
again a refrence to the victorian industrial age.... the setting of steampunk.

So where is that?
Oh England!

[T-ORK-amada]

Uilliam the Red is from Albyon in the fluff, which is clearly England. Also Albania is as old as Greece and Roman. It just wasn't a Rebublic until later in history. Albania has been a region since before the Macedonians.

[Nabterayl]

"were drawn from the ancient and warlike clans of Old Albia"
as mentioned Albion is the british isles

"drawn from Old Albia's towering soot-blackened Castram-cities"
again as mentioned "castrum" refers to the castle/fortress cities of England, which were and still are on the old cities, soot grimed from the industrial age with coal. on a side note my home town in its true old name is Novacsatria.... Newcastle.

"Old Albia, towering amid the northern Atlan wilderness"
yeah Albion sits in the atlantic and north seas

"the Emperor spoke to the warlords' parliament"
we have the parliament houses in London and there is another quote from corax where the password for the gene vault is a message in London.

"the Ironsides of Old Albia"
as mentioned civil war

"a breed of relentless warlords and soldier-scientists"
well this could well be a reflection on our warmongering PM's of recent years.... you know the war criminal blair and the terrorist funding cameron. but then bush and obama are no different... hand in hand if you will

"the Albians met the Emperor's Thunder Regiments with their own batallions of steam-belching proto-dreadnoughts and armoured Ironsides soldiers"
again a refrence to the victorian industrial age.... the setting of steampunk.

So where is that?
Oh England!
+1 to all of this. Death Guard are English.

[Cpt Codpiece]

ablania does not have any links to the story pointers other than the Aquila flag and similar name.

and it would have been covered in the europa hive rather than being a separate entity in 40k fluff...... the europa hive was supposed to go to india/indus and then the Himalayas were the center of the imperial palace.

[Psychosplodge]

Didn't only the Emperor and Emperor's Children use the Aquila at that point too?

[Cpt Codpiece]

well nearly right, garro had an Aquila cuiras and mantle.

other than the primarchs... which we only really know of 2 so far armour wise................................ that's it as far as we have been told.

[albertsevil]

Grahame MacNeil's short story The Last Church may support the argument that Alba is Britain/Albion. The story focuses on the last church in, importantly, one of the last areas to fall to the Emperor. While the story does not reference Alba specifically, I couldn't help but think of it and re-read it as soon as I read the new Fore World 'fluff' for the Death Guard. At least to me some things just seem to link:

"In ages past, the mountain had been the tallest peak upon a storm-lashed island shrouded in mists" (Ben Nevis upon Britain which classically was often described as shrouded in mists)
"linked to the mainland by a sleek bridge of silver, but ancient, apocalyptic wars had boiled away many of the oceans, and the island was now simply a rocky promontory" (the Atlantic having boiled away leaving a barren plain, possibly exposing Atlantis)
"jutting from a land that was said to have once ruled the world" (reference to the British Empire)

The "silver bridge" crosses "to Europa" (Europe) and "Franc" (France) which were are described as being under the rule of the the Emperor before the fall of the priest's own land.

Link to more info on the short story:
http://1d4chan.org/wiki/The_Last_Church

[T-ORK-amada]

Try googling Albanian dusk raiders. You get your answers.

[Cpt Codpiece]

Try googling Albanian dusk raiders. You get your answers.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Albanian+dusk+raiders&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=rcs

erm 40k stuff?

lexicanium holds about as much canon as the rantings on 4chan. and to be honest they dont explain their reasoning to mentioning albania at all, where as when the evidence is put forward (like this thread) there is no doubt where the deathguard hail from.

not meaning to come off as a jerk, but there is no evidence in fluff or real life that i can see, that points to albania, where as good old blighty has tons.

[energongoodie]

It's Britain.
Death Guard, Night Lords and Iron Hands were originally mostly drawn from us :)

[bfmusashi]

Alba has been a lot of places through history. It's a name for mysterious, far off lands and has been used since antiquity. As pointed out above, many sources would point to the islands north of Europe not the Balkans.

[T-ORK-amada]

Has anyone read the HH book The Outcast Dead? In that book, the Unification Wars are mentioned. Ulleam the Red is the Prince of Albyon. Albyon being Britian and Uleam the Red is a play on William the Red. Alba is not the British isles. As I have stated before, there are many clues that link to Alba to Albania.
1. There is belief that Atlantis is off the coast to Albania- thus when they talk about Alba towing over the Atlan Wastelands, it would make since. In the fluff of the Unification Wars, The oceans and seas have been reduced to 1/10th of their original size, which means that Albania/Alba would be landlocked
http://books.google.com/books?id=2aqoUiUp3u8C&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=atlantis+albania&source=bl&ots=6wUXFgbnil&sig=4dEWnXvjk3m1Cl6bX_PLcQbmNXc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UmDTUcykHInt0gGmg4GgCA&ved=0CG4Q6AEwDTgK#v=onepage&q=atlantis%20albania&f=false

2. Ironsides was the nickname of the Allied forces that invaded Albania in WWII
https://www.bliss.army.mil/1AD/History.html

3. Scientist Warriors and fighting clans could harken to ancient Albania/Alba being it was fought over by the Greeks, Macedonians and the like. It was around before the medieval era, long before infact
http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_albaniaancient.htm

4.http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/Europe/Albania-FOREIGN-TRADE.html#b This would explain the soot bellowing refineries of Old Albia

[Cpt Codpiece]

if you go by platos account of atlantis it lies beyond the pillars of Hercules/heracles, which is the Atlantic ocean given that the pillars are Gibraltar and Morocco, the entrance to the Mediterranean, a comment worth noting is that at the time it was essentially saying Atlantis lay beyond the realm of knowledge.... as past the pillars was and still is open waters.
the other account puts it in the reverse as entering the pillars, which would point to santorini, and while it has a circular/caldera shape. its proximity to mainland Greece makes it highly unlikely.

the 'old ironsides' may well have been the nickname of the tank battalion that cleansed north Africa and the Balkans in the back end of WW2, but the general consensus would put the term to Cromwell's cavalry, as it is the most well known.

the scientist and fighting clans can be anywhere on the planet really.

as i said any industrial city would have its markings.

and as a note from HH:betrayal. The Emperor appeared before the Albian Clan Lords unarmed and clothed in white and crimson. those are indeed the colours of the English flag. black and red for albania

[Psychosplodge]

well nearly right, garro had an Aquila cuiras and mantle.

other than the primarchs... which we only really know of 2 so far armour wise................................ that's it as far as we have been told.

Not from the heresy series granted. But the existing fluff(the index astartes series iirc?). The Aquila was adopted by the loyalists during the heresy but prior to that was worn solely by the Emperor's children.


It's Britain.
Death Guard, Night Lords and Iron Hands were originally mostly drawn from us :)

Where's the info on the Night lords and Iron hands?

[energongoodie]

It's in The Forge World book Betrayal. It's in the text concerning the origin of the Death Guard. When I get home I'll have a look and let you know exactly, unless someone here beats me to it :)

[Psychosplodge]

It's Ok I'll look myself later. I haven't really done much more than flick through that as it's too pretty to read :D

[Cpt Codpiece]

i know its pretty much the EC only to get the Aquila, those old IA books were great but sadly at a time when GW was happy to let the heresy be distant past :) even garro's cuiras and mantle are not truly the emperors aquila as both heads are sighted, not one blind.

as for betrayal reference its in the same bit as the bit i mentioned earlier, where the emperor meets the warlords in English regalia. cant remember exactly where myself either LOL

[T-bud]

In "Athame" by John French (Mark of Calth) there is a mention of "the black forests of Albia." May be of interest to you guys.

[Douglas Nicol]

being english i say alba is england. Albion being a mythical isle that is the resting place of king arthur the once and future king ( King arthur is the emperor and malcador was probably Merlin:) )

[Cpt Codpiece]

y'know England was well known for its forests, and mainly around GW HQ....... there is quite a famous 'forest'....... hiding place of a certain outlaw, running a robbery ring on a certain sheriff :)
besides, germany has no links to any of the other pointers to albia/albion being england.

the arthur and merlin is a theme GW like to recycle quite a lot.... its not truly English (roots) though..... its welsh :) uther was kiing of the tribes in wales :)

[Psychosplodge]

That forest was a lot bigger in those days, he could have lived a hell of a long way from anywhere near GWHQ :D

[Cpt Codpiece]

while true the forests were bigger, and there were a load more wilderness areas....
Nottingham is still Nottingham :)
the Trent has not moved its course that much in the what is it 300 years or so?
as it stands GWHQ is right on the Trent, people made their towns on rivers and coastlines in order to irrigate and fish..... not that England has ever really been an arid clime

[Psychosplodge]

The second longest river in the country? XD
I'm holding with the Robin of Loxley (https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Loxley&hl=en&ll=53.399554,-1.525555&spn=0.038637,0.077162&sll=53.411366,-1.380387&sspn=0.618021,1.234589&oq=loxley+&hnear=Loxley,+United+Kingdom&t=m&z=14) theory.

[Cpt Codpiece]

yeah looking at the map like that, it looks a bit far, but given that the roads were not as developed and the forests were massive.... and were until 1st WW really.
Loxley would have been on the main route to Nottingham and the south in general, bringing the trade from the northern ports from Ireland and Sheffield is quite central so would have been a hub for trade and such anyway.

but yeah back to the point forests were big and would have been dark :)

[Cactus]

I thought it was Albanian because of the flag with twin-headed Eagle and it's former Soviet alignment was the reason for the sickles. The Dusk Riders also seems more ancient Arabian than English to me but I suppose that what we know is deliberately vague so the reader can form our own ideas.

[nathaneal246]

referencing the robin of the hood, Nottingham, trent idea, robin of the hood was more like 600 to 700 years ago, it was like during the crusades of the Christian nations. Apart from that it got to be England and not Albania.

this thread has got me back in the mood to read some HH books again though so thanks, been away from it for a while now!

[Cpt Codpiece]

the last crusade against the ottoman empire was 1456 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Belgrade_(1456)) 500 years ago

[nathaneal246]

the robin hood story is during Richard the Lionhearts lifetime which was the late 1100's, and robin hood returned from that crusade, so early 1200's, so 800 years ago!

[Cpt Codpiece]

fair enough :)