Nikea Question

[The Last Lamenter]

Hey guys, I probably missed this along the way, but I've gone back and read and can't come up with an answer on my own. I've read Thousands Sons, Prospero Burns, and plenty of GW material on the issue but I don't understand how the legions and especially the Space Wolves are seriously able to bring charges against Magnis and the K-Sons, what is the distinction they draw between their own librarians and the Sons? Like Wydmake claims there is this great distintion between sorcery and psyker stuff, how can he be serious? Can somebody help me here? Also, did the Death Guard not use Librarians at all?

[Cpt Codpiece]

just like the real life nicea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea) :)

it was mostly just finger pointing and hearsay.
the fact that the 1KS used warp entities as foci was one of the major damning points. magnus was told to stop and carry on with the crusade but he didnt and carried on learning, his destiny was going to be to become the most powerful psychic entity in the universe, both guardian and conduit for the humanised entrance to the webway.... a role that killed the 2nd most powerful psycher after the emperor, and a role the emperor still has now.

commune with entities, unfocused power and unchecked arrogance with it, was the main reason.... but also the emperors failings in not telling magnus the truth were the main reasons... even though it was too late as magnus had already stopped the fleshchange, a bargain with the changer of ways.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

It used to be that Psyker = using your own mental powers, Sorcery = using daemonic powers to augment your own. Recent fluff has muddied that up, though.

[Wildeybeast]

just like the real life nicea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea) :)

Father Christmas punched Arius in the face!? Man, that would have made studying the Church Fathers so much more interesting if they'd told us that

[Cpt Codpiece]

Father Christmas punched Arius in the face!? Man, that would have made studying the Church Fathers so much more interesting if they'd told us that

oh i need to remember that one :) the Mrs will have our little one into RE at school, so ill have to sneak in 1KS and prospero burns as an example of a modern spin LOL

though given my age and the age of the council of nicea..... i always see disagreements in roman times as gladiatorial.... and my age that means scantily clad ladies on a bucking bronco hitting each other with foam batons :) or imagining myself as the challenger being straddled by 'jet' on the hanging rings :) happy days of late 80's early 90's childhood hahahaha

sorry for the derail.... its that time of night

[Mrchilidog]

A better question is 'When did the edict of Nikea get lifted'? In M41 we have librarians again, but I don't recall seeing when they became mainstream again.

[energongoodie]

A better question is 'When did the edict of Nikea get lifted'? In M41 we have librarians again, but I don't recall seeing when they became mainstream again.

It'll happen in the Horus Heresy novels. Psykers are needed to fight daemons.

[DrLove42]

Thats something thats mentioned in Know No Fear. The Ultramarines postulate that Nikea was manipulated, and happened as a means to help the Heresy, by taking away the Loyalists means to fight Chaos And that it would need to be repealed as soon as they can

[Cpt Codpiece]

it is hinted in burden of duty also, but dorn always knew he would need his psychers, so kept them close..... locked in a wardrobe on the phalanx LOL

also the lion does not like the decision and in 'the lion' he gives a very clear F U to his chief chaplain about whet he thinks of the decree.

i think there will be a book covering the lifting of the decree, as malcador likes the fact that marines are not allowed to use powers... i can see girlyman or sanguinius and dorn in a face off with malcador i have often thought when reading the HH books malcador is very much 'for' horus a lot of the time and seems to have a lot of insight into the plans of the unfolding heresy.

[Morgrim]

Based on the DH and RT fluff it seems that if you communicate, bargain with or otherwise interact with warp entities it is considered sorcery, because you're persuading the immaterium to do what you want it to. A pure psyker deliberately ignores warp entities and forces the immaterium to do what they want by sheer willpower. So a lot of low level unsanctioned psykers aren't sorcerers because they don't know what they're doing or who to deal with but high level followers of chaos almost always are sorcerers because it makes life easier to play nice with the daemons.

I haven't read the Thousand Sons books but it seems in character for them to have been studying what they could of the denizens of the warp (even if they didn't realise there were full fledged daemons there are the more mindless 'fauna') which would be counted as sorcery while other Librarians were in effect borrowing power from the warp without those interactions and the associated risk of corruption and thus considered more acceptable.

[Cpt Codpiece]

the primarchs were told of the warp entities, but they were told they were nothing more than elemental beings.

the HH fluff paints the emperor as a bit of a douche when it comes to the warp, "there is nothing in the warp but nasty thoughts" kind of dogma.
and his own douchebaggery caused the heresy, not through his treatment of horus but his most devoted son :) (no spoilers from me today)
if he had of come out and told the 20 what he knew, then the 9 that fell may well not have fallen at all, and the 2 that were purged may well not have needed it.
however if the primarchs were told would they have carried on doing the emperors will knowing their fate.......
only horus was told of his ultimate fate, had magnus been told of his imprisonment in the golden throne would he have went willingly?

[The Last Lamenter]

Thanks for responding. This is great information. I understand the distinction now.

[Nabterayl]

As far as I know you don't even need to be a psyker to be a sorcerer, although it certainly helps.

[Katharon]

The process was started when Leman Russ and the Space Wolves were fighting alongside the Thousand Sons and the Word Bearers on the world of Shrike. The Thousand Sons had suffered from a high mutancy rate due to their psyker genes being more prevalent than any other legion -- and though Magnus had been able to remove that threat of his entire legion become mutated by delving into the warp and cutting a deal with a powerful warp entity (most likely Tzeentch himself or one of Tzeentch's greatest daemons) in order to halt the process. During the battle for Shrike, one of the Thousand Sons psykers lost control of himself and overloaded on warp power, causing a sudden and fierce corruption of the flesh.

This mutant surprise combined with the way in which the Thousand Sons unleashed their psykic powers caused Leman Russ to request that the Emperor censure Magnus. Other Primarchs were equally worried about the way in which the Thousand Sons employed their psykic powers -- Mortarion in particular was an avid opponent to their use as a weapon.

With several primarchs speaking out the Emperor had no choice but to bring the issue to a debate/hearing; and as such the world of Nikea was chosen as the sight for it. And we all know what happened next...

The different between the Thousand Sons and the Space Wolves is that they have different avenues by which they travel to reach for and use psykic power. The Thousand Sons use the Enumerations - a meditative process that was designed by Magnus to focus the mind and psykic self - by which they can then produce a variety of powers for use (they also have minor warp entities that act as "spirit guides"). The Space Wolves on the other hand have psykic powers wrapped in ritual and runes, based on the Fenrisian culture -- they do not *exploit* psykic power like the Thousand Sons do and theirs is much more elemental; kind of in tune with the natural forces around them. Hence the Space Wolves would see the Thousand Sons attempts at dominating psykic power for brute force as being unnatural and dangerous, whereas the Thousand Sons would view the Space Wolves runes and elemental powers as quaint and backwards.

The Death Guard never made us of Librarians. Mortarion made a point of having any psykic candidates that might try to become an aspirant of the Death Guard sent to the Black Ships.