Chrimson Hunter and Hovering Flyers

[Asuryan]

Does the CH get to re-roll failed glancing and penetrating hits against a Flyer in hover mode, as it is treated "exactly like a Fast Skimmer"

[daboarder]

Lets see,


If a Flyer is hovering, it is treated exactly as a Fast Skimmer.
This makes it more maneuverable, but often limits the number of
weapons it can fire.

seems solid.

so we check the CH.


When shooting at a vehicle with the flyer type...

So we can conclude that even though it is treated as a skimmer and follows all the rules of one, the vehicle still has the "flyer" type, otherwise it would be impossible for it to zoom again after hovering (this was addressed in the errata).

I'd make the argument that yes the CH still gets to use sky-hunter against hovering fliers.

[Asuryan]

Thanks for your input, and that's what I thought but it came up when I faced a helldrake hovering so it could stay on the board and flamer a squad off an objective, didn't kill them all so I shot it with the CH and was re-rolling the failed and opponent said "it's a skimmer now not a flyer" so I just let it go and blew it up with the 2 shots that were already pens.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Daboarder is correct; although a hovering flyer is "treated like" a Skimmer, its unit type remains "Flyer".

[Magpie]

Don't know if it is that cut and dried?

Units of type "Flyer" have the Skyfire special rule yet the FAQ states that a Hovering Flyer does not have Skyfire.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

That's because it is using the rules of a skimmer while hovering. The UNIT TYPE is still Flyer.

[eldargal]

Treated as a Fast Skimmer doesn't mean it becomes a Fast Skimmer, if it did then a Hovering flyer wouldn't be able to Zoom because Fast Skimmers can't do that.;)

[Nabterayl]

Don't know if it is that cut and dried?

Units of type "Flyer" have the Skyfire special rule yet the FAQ states that a Hovering Flyer does not have Skyfire.
Careful there, friend; you almost said that something that is treated as X is indistinguishable from X from a rules standpoint ;)

I think Magpie has a point. If we treat it as a Flyer, we aren't treating it exactly like a Fast Skimmer.

If we took that to its logical extreme, such a vehicle could never stop Hovering ... but I think the Skyfire FAQ is good reason to be cautious. Flyers get Skyfire, according to page 81, simply for being Flyers. If they don't have it while Hovering, the implication is that they don't have the Flyer type anymore.

[Tynskel]

Yeah, when you are hovering, you are no longer a flyer for the duration of Hovering. Hence 'treat as a Fast Skimmer'.

Goes back to the 'counts as'–GW has always used 'counts as' as 'equal to'.

[daboarder]

Page 81 – Hover‘Type’
Change the first sentence of the second paragraph to “A
Flyer with the Hovertype must declare whetherit is going to
Zoom or Hover before it moves, and before any embarked
models disembark, each Movement phase.”


I would like to change my stance,

After reading the above errata it is clear that the change in rules was to make it so that the flyer was treated as a skimmer "until the next movement phase"

I'm with the others, the CH cannot re-roll against a hovering flyer.

sorry asuryan.

[Magpie]

Careful there, friend; you almost said that something that is treated as X is indistinguishable from X from a rules standpoint ;)

That is consistent with my stand on all "treated as" matters.
IMO "treated as" means "acts so in all respects without actually becoming so"

So an Unsaved wound that is treated as saved is a saved wound in every regard but for the fact it remains an Unsaved Wound.
A Flyer that is treated as a Skimmer is a Skimmer in every regard but still remains a Flyer.

Whilst it is a valid interpretation given the assumed meaning of counts as being "becomes so", the problem created by "the vehicle still has the "flyer" type, otherwise it would be impossible for it to zoom again after hovering" , goes away if we accept that "treated as" means "acts so in all respects without actually becoming so"

Path of least resistance.

[daboarder]

your opinion is wrong as evident in every precedent.

[Nabterayl]

That is consistent with my stand on all "treated as" matters.
IMO "treated as" means "acts so in all respects without actually becoming so"

So an Unsaved wound that is treated as saved is a saved wound in every regard but for the fact it remains an Unsaved Wound.
A Flyer that is treated as a Skimmer is a Skimmer in every regard but still remains a Flyer.

Whilst it is a valid interpretation given the assumed meaning of counts as being "becomes so", the problem created by "the vehicle still has the "flyer" type, otherwise it would be impossible for it to zoom again after hovering" , goes away if we accept that "treated as" means "acts so in all respects without actually becoming so"

Path of least resistance.
"Acts so in all respects without actually becoming so" is the same thing as "acts so in some respects but not all" as long as we ever care what something is. That just raises the question of how we determine which respects are which.

I do understand the re-Zooming problem. But if a Hovering Flyer is still a Flyer, on what grounds does it not have the option to give itself Skyfire? I think we have the rules in a contradiction here.

[daboarder]

Re-zooming is no longer a problem as per the errata.

DO PEOPLE JUST NOT READ!!

[chicop76]

Both flyer and Flying MCs have to be flying to have skyfire. If they are just hovering than any flying MC or skimmer could be argued that they should have skyfire.

If a flyer is not a flyer when in skimmer mode I could start the skimmer in turn one instead of coming in via reserves. However several rules prevent you from doing this and on the profile type you have a big fat flyer tagged on the unit.

Not surprising it's the same two people causing confusion.

[Magpie]

That just raises the question of how we determine which respects are which.

That is the question.

We have only two options, extrapolate precedent or get a GW ruling.

[Magpie]

If a flyer is not a flyer when in skimmer mode I could start the skimmer in turn one instead of coming in via reserves.

That isn't an issue as Flyer MUST be placed in reserve prior to deployment. Deployment is prior to Turn 1 which is the first opportunity for a Flyer to nominate if it is Zooming or Hovering. As it is already in reserve it cannot switch to hover mode to enter turn 1 because it can't roll to arrive from reserve until turn 2.