Why no camouflage?

[Blackcloud6]

I have a Blog on Consimworld and post pictures of WH40K games that I play. Since CSW id a site for board wargamers many folks who read my blog don't understand the 40K universe. Yesterday someone asked why the models are not done in camouflage and why many are done in bright spectacular colors. I surmised that sighting and fire control is so good in the 41st century, camo is need needed.

What is the fluff reason behind the bright and spectacular 40K combat uniforms?

[Tyrendian]

pride, mostly... try looking up "Reasonable Marines" to see what comes out when Astartes start using camouflage :D
Guard have widely varying uniforms - Cadians or Catachans use at least some amount of camo, while Mordians are too stubborn/stupid for it...
Nids evolve any way they like, and hardly care about casualties...
Eldar are again a matter of pride, and Dark Eldar hardly believe anyone can hurt them anyways...
Necrons are waaaay beyond caring...
Daemons are... well... Daemons...
and Tau have their Stealth Suits and otherwise put lots of trust into their technology, misplaced or not...

[Capn Stoogey]

Space Marines, for example, are meant to be the ultimate shock troops, the sheer sight of them is often enough to make rebellious humans throw down their weapons and run. They have bright colours and heraldry, like medieval knights, so the enemy knows exactly who has come to destroy them! It is mainly for the psychological impact it has on the enemy, as well as the pride in the chapter as Tyrendian has said.

[Badtucker]

Camouflage is the colour of cowards. Thats why ;)

[Wolfshade]

Maybe they do, maybe our representations of them don't ;)

Interestingly, there is a (very) old WD with a beaky in desert camo who is a Blood Angel, so it is not unprecedented.

When it comes to marines though one has to consider the effects on the normal troops seeing the astartes in action, shock and awesome and also the negative moral on the opponent.

[Psychosplodge]

I think there's a full BA army in desert camo in one of them.
But it's more a case of they don't fight that kind of action. Consider a drop pod assault. Do you really need camo for that?

[Wolfshade]

Couldn't find what I wanted but these:
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_v-QnkPLGATg/SsWIGUV95fI/AAAAAAAAA_0/38pvyt7h6ds/lr_lg.jpg
http://images.wikia.com/warhammer40k/images/6/6d/Badab_War_Original_Colours.jpg

I also think in some of the new IA books they have reference to some camo patterns,

[Magpie]

What camo would you use tho' ?
The fight across 1000 different worlds.
If they tried to camo then they'd be constantly repainting themselves and the machine spirit would be beside itself !

[Nabterayl]

I think there's a full BA army in desert camo in one of them.
But it's more a case of they don't fight that kind of action. Consider a drop pod assault. Do you really need camo for that?
The real answer, of course, is just that it's part of the stylization of the universe, but if you want an in-universe answer, I think this is it. There are only three armies in the entire game that field infantry: the Imperial Guard, necrons, and the Tau. Orks are capable of it but generally can't be arsed. Three of those four utilize camouflage; the Guard and the Empire use it on a regular basis.

Everybody else in the game is either militia, a tactically unsophisticated commando, or a bug. And the biggest offenders in the "why in the world are you wearing that?" department are space marines and eldar aspect warriors, both of which fall into the tactically unsophisticated commando classification. Space marines and aspect warriors both fly to the X, go loud, and then go home. They can afford to eschew camouflage in favor of ritual colors for the same reason they can afford to use such unsophisticated tactics: the utter superiority of their mobility and insertion technology compared to their targets, and the fact that they're all hairy-arsed badasses in personal combat.

[DarkLink]

What camo would you use tho' ?

The Army's ACU patter, naturally. It's equally terrible everywhere.

[Blackcloud6]

What camo would you use tho' ?
The fight across 1000 different worlds.
If they tried to camo then they'd be constantly repainting themselves and the machine spirit would be beside itself !

Well, you'd think that by 40,000 they could make a camo cloth/armor suit that could change camo patterns/colors as needed, eh?

[Blackcloud6]

The Army's ACU patter, naturally. It's equally terrible everywhere.

Heh!

[Magpie]

Well, you'd think that by 40,000 they could make a camo cloth/armor suit that could change camo patterns/colors as needed, eh?

Yeh you'd think but they can't even make a reliable targeter for a guided missile so groovy stealthy things ain't gunna happen !

[Nabterayl]

Well, you'd think that by 40,000 they could make a camo cloth/armor suit that could change camo patterns/colors as needed, eh?
Like most things in 40K, they can, but not as well as you'd think. The Imperium can do it, but not in sufficient numbers to make generally available to infantry. The Empire can do it, so the fact that they don't seems to imply a supply problem as well.

[Wildeybeast]

Why is everyone bagging on space marines? If you guys played a proper chapter like Raven Guard, then you'd know they can do stealth as well as anyone. I'm not sure dressing in black and hiding in the shadows exactly counts as camouflage, but they utilise stealth tactics and technology, as well as genetic/psychic abilities to hide.

Basically, as others have pointed out, the races of 40K either rely on overwhelming force, superior technology or are just too bloody minded/stupid to care. Or all of the above. Also, camo is a pain to paint.

[Dave Mcturk]

What camo would you use tho' ?

The Army's ACU patter, naturally. It's equally terrible everywhere.

pmsl..

[Dave Mcturk]

think star wars storm troopers... glowing white.... but its their shooting thats the real problem... those as i remember it they can hit droids...

[chromedog]

The original illustration of the armour in the RT rulebook stated that the armour incorporated a programmable mimetic layer - it could be set to display "parade dress" (Chapter colours) or Camouflage (by theatre).

Perhaps they've just forgotten how to set the switch to "emulate" - it would fit in with everything else they have forgotten how to do.

[Psychosplodge]

think star wars storm troopers... glowing white.... but its their shooting thats the real problem... those as i remember it they can hit droids...

That's just because the main characters had Plot Armour consider how many pistol wielding heroes outshoot sub machine gun wielding henchmen...

[Blackcloud6]

The original illustration of the armour in the RT rulebook stated that the armour incorporated a programmable mimetic layer - it could be set to display "parade dress" (Chapter colours) or Camouflage (by theatre).

That would make good sense given the technologies the Space Marines have.

[imperialpower]

In my mind a space marine is not exactly what I would call stealthy in the first place so why bother concidering most people have the ability to hit somthing the size of a barn door anyway, but they are shock troops so bright colours makes sence like blue woad paint on ancient Britons as a real life example.

Any guard regiment that uses brightly coloured uniforms does so becuase they are awesome and that's what wins wars.

[Kevlarshark]

Marines do use camo to a limited extent... There are a number of Codex prescribed camo patterns, a few are mentioned in the Badab War books. The Howling Griffons wore black armour when fighting on a night world and Mantis Warriors went desert camo when they had to resort to hit and run tactics in the tranquility campaign. They are not frequently used however, Marines don't really fight the protracted wars where camo is necessary. They don't sneak up to the rebel commanders bunker and eliminate him quietly... They drop on him from space and then leave it for the imperial guard to sort out.

[Aramel]

I don't see how anyone can accuse Eldar of being "tactically unsophisticated commandos," when virtually everything we know about them points to the Craftworld Eldar fielding the most tactically sophisticated armies in the known universe. Most aspect warriors do not need camouflage, because they generally deploy out of Wave Serpents. These in turn are very fast and boast advanced holo-fields that make them very hard to track. Striking scorpions of course have suits that change colour to blend with terrain, swooping hawks are sky colour, warp spiders are constantly teleporting and shining spears are also extremely fast.

Added to that is the impressive technology that the Eldar have at their disposal, which typically make a mockery of their opponents' (Necrons being the only consistent exception) and the skill with which they use it. Their most powerful tactical asset however, is the ability to predict enemy movements with reliable accuracy by studying the skeins of fate, something which only Necrons seem able to disrupt. In terms of traditional camouflage, Outcasts wear cloaks that render them virtually invisible in any terrain, wraith constructs don't really need cover, or often are the cover. I think it's abundantly clear that Eldar armies are tactically superior in every deparent except for one critically important one: numbers. Which is why they no longer run the place.

As for camouflage in the 40k universe in general, we have to assume that technology has reached a point that simply painting your armour/vehicles a different colour is not going to matter when the enemy has computers (or magical machine spirits that are definitely not an AI) that can see right through it.

[Kaiserdean]

I remember reading some fluff somewhere that explained that the Imperial Fists wore bright yellow as a fear tactic. They want their enemies to know they are coming and hopefully cause fear among their opponents ranks.

[DarkLink]

Aramel, Kevlarshark, it's a huge mistake to assume that just because you're only outside the vehicle for short periods of time, that camouflage, cover, and concealment aren't realistically just as important as in other situations.

[Errandir]

Are we forgetting Raptors?

http://images.wikia.com/warhammer40k/images/4/48/Raptors_Scout_Marine.jpg

[Ursa]

Ive been playing this game since Rogue Trader days and have always wondered this very question and the practicle answer is Marines look better on the table in bright flashy colors. Over the years I have painted nine space marine armies. One Flesh Traders, two space wolves, one all techmarines (that one had a couple of pics in WD), the rest home made chapters. Two of them I did in camo, one a tribute to the troops in gulf one with the chocolate chip desert camp. I currently have one of the space wolf armies and a gold army called Emperors Pryde (sub theme of Lions) . Ive painted and sold the other seven plus dozens of other armies and frankly the flashier the faster it sold.

So reason why no camo? Because people like flashy yellow or blue or dark green or black. Not camo.

The other reason could be its easier to find ones minis if they stand out from the Terrain.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Because in the sort of futuristic scenario and tech-level most of 40k uses, conventional camouflage patterns are basically useless. If your enemy can pick you out with his heat-sensitive scanning equipment, his target designator mounted in a helmet, his psychic second-sight or whatever, then what the hell use is having a camo drab painted on your armour?

Camouflage is just one way of protecting a warrior or a war machine. If your armour is good enough (or your combat doctrine demands it), then camouflage isn't necessarily effective. For weaker, lighter troops and vehicles, it's there in lieu of armour. Furthermore, effective camouflage in a 40k context is stuff you can't see: countermeasures against the above systems, or things like the Eldar holo-fields or Tau baffling technology. Space Marines crash from the skies on wings of fire to engage in close-range firefights and punching matches, armoured as they are in suits of reinforced Future Materials as hardy as a tank. When they're fighting like that, camo is by the by.

The Imperial Guard is different. They're tiny, weak humans armoured in paper, they need all the help they can get.

On the other hand, chapters which practice different ways of fighting - like the Raven Guard - probably do camo themselves up. There's a great Horus Heresy short story (Little Horus) where the antihero gets ambushed by a camouflaged kill-team of White Scars. So it does happen. It's just not always their regular MO.

I feel like sometimes - I'm looking at you, 1d4chan crowd - people try and think about the Imperium and the setting too much in terms of real life combat doctrine. Yes, I know, in real life you camo up and hide behind a tree. But this isn't real life. This is the Grim Darkness of the Far Future. The rules are different!

[Nabterayl]

I feel like sometimes - I'm looking at you, 1d4chan crowd - people try and think about the Imperium and the setting too much in terms of real life combat doctrine. Yes, I know, in real life you camo up and hide behind a tree. But this isn't real life. This is the Grim Darkness of the Far Future. The rules are different!
I think it just comes down to different ways of consuming the product. Which parts of the universe are "core" will differ from consumer to consumer. Some people like deconstructing their favorite fictional universes. There's plenty of ways in which 40K is internally inconsistent, which makes it rich fodder for that kind of loving deconstructionism.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Oh, I agree, and I have no problem with deconstruction, but there's also a lot of silly stuff masquerading as 'deconstruction'. But people can do whatever they like with it, that's the beauty of it.

[Magpie]

Thing is the real life of camo-ing up and hiding behind a tree has only been a part of warfare since the 1930's.
Who knows how things will change in the next 38,000 years and it's quite likely to swing back to what has been the usual case for so long.

[Nabterayl]

I think that's an oversimplification. Even in the 1700s the value of being hard to see in a firefight was well understood, and the value of being hard to see in battle generally was well understood for millennia prior to that. Ditto for fighting in skirmish order. It's true that line infantry and its descendants have only been camouflaged generally since the 20th century, but that was because until the mid-19th century or so the loss of command and control was not deemed worth the advantages of camouflage and skirmish order, and there was still offensive value to close order. And then it took a generation or so for those ideas to really take hold in the western military establishment.

If one is inclined to get deconstructionist on 40K, one should ask: are there situations in the battlespaces of the 41st millennium where (i) close order is a net offensive gain as opposed to skirmish order, and (ii) the command and control infrastructure makes highly visible friendlies desirable? I'm betraying my own slant on the lore here, but I'd answer both questions in the negative for all factions.

[Magpie]

Even in a Skirmish order style of fighting is individual camouflage particularly important? Conflicts as recent as Vietnam, in close jungle fighting conditions, still only saw camouflage used by special forces units where hidden surveillance and ambush operations were paramount.

In the much more recent First Gulf War I think a pretty solid case could be made that camo was a distinct disadvantage as evidenced by friendly fire incidents and the subsequent installation of bright orange panels on many vehicles, despite the highly advanced level of C3

Given the particular lack of supporting firepower available to a Space Marine Tactical Squad, a single heavy weapon; single specialist weapon; no on call artillery, scant air support and only direct fire support weapons organic to the Company; it would seem that close order concentration does offer distinct advantages by lessening the area to be effectively suppressed by the Squads Bolters.

For the Space Marine, in vast open terrain there is nowhere to hide, in close terrain IFF is more important, IMO

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I still think too much is being made of the value of "being able to see". Most armies in 40k don't need naked-eye line of sight to you, they can see your heat signature or psychic aura or what have you. If that's the case, it doesn't really matter if you're painted bright blue, because effective camouflage against that sort of capability is going to have to take a different form.

Again, I bring up holofields and camo-cloaks.

[Nabterayl]

Even in a Skirmish order style of fighting is individual camouflage particularly important? Conflicts as recent as Vietnam, in close jungle fighting conditions, still only saw camouflage used by special forces units where hidden surveillance and ambush operations were paramount.

In the much more recent First Gulf War I think a pretty solid case could be made that camo was a distinct disadvantage as evidenced by friendly fire incidents and the subsequent installation of bright orange panels on many vehicles, despite the highly advanced level of C3

Given the particular lack of supporting firepower available to a Space Marine Tactical Squad, a single heavy weapon; single specialist weapon; no on call artillery, scant air support and only direct fire support weapons organic to the Company; it would seem that close order concentration does offer distinct advantages by lessening the area to be effectively suppressed by the Squads Bolters.

For the Space Marine, in vast open terrain there is nowhere to hide, in close terrain IFF is more important, IMO
Space marines are special forces, they just do only a subset of things that our special forces do. When you're guaranteed to be heavily outnumbered and you only outgun people in a highly localized area of the battlespace, I'd think that individual camouflage would be even more important.


I still think too much is being made of the value of "being able to see". Most armies in 40k don't need naked-eye line of sight to you, they can see your heat signature or psychic aura or what have you. If that's the case, it doesn't really matter if you're painted bright blue, because effective camouflage against that sort of capability is going to have to take a different form.

Again, I bring up holofields and camo-cloaks.
Well, I think that's
I don't think that's really true. Most Chaos armies aren't even going to have low-light gear, and neither do most Imperial Guard units. It's not really clear how good the psychic aura sense of your average eldar soldier is, and if it isn't as good as their eyes then camouflage would at least require them to receive targeting information from the people who do have a good enough aura sense to spot you through your camouflage, which would degrade their effectiveness.

Most forces do seem to rely primarily on their eyes when it comes to finding targets and shooting them. Camo-cloaks are primarily visual-spectrum stealth, after all, and they work just fine.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

We can agree to disagree. ;) As someone said above, it depends on how each person views things. I'm more into the science fiction aspects, I know others are much more into the military side of things.