The Black Mace vs. Multi-Wound Models

[mikehardez]

Hello everyone,

I'm going to be using a Black Mace wielding DP in an upcoming game, but I need some clarification on how the "save vs. removal as casualty" effect works vs. multi-wound models.

Generally speaking, when something is limited to a single test regardless of number of wounds caused, it uses the wording "one or more unsaved wounds" to make this clear. For example, a unit only takes one pinning test regardless of how many unsaved wounds it takes vs. pinning weapons. Even the AoE effect of the Black Mace uses this wording.

How ever, the "single-target" effect, if you will, states:

"If a model suffers an unsaved Wound from the Black Mace it must immediately take a Toughness test."

To me, this implies that you take a toughness test for each wound suffered from direct clubbing. For example, if a Wraithknight takes 3 Black Mace wounds, he would take 3 toughness tests. If he rolls a 6 on any of them, he's removed as a casualty.

However, I could see opponents protesting to this, as the rules don't explicitly state "for each unsaved wound suffered" or something along those lines. Power-wise, it doesn't seem broken given how relatively common instant death is, but it does go through Eternal Warrior, which is fairly unique; I can see both sides of the argument as being valid.

My main argument for multiple tests is that it doesn't state "one or more unsaved wounds" like it does for the AoE portion of the ability. Because that standard phrase is present for another part of the Black Mace's rules, I have a hard time believing this could be an oversight.

Can anyone provide any other solid evidence, for or against? For reference, the entry is on page 69 of the CSM codex.

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

[isotope99]

I would play it as just one test as the wounds happen essentially simultaneously at the same initiative step but I don't have a concrete proof if it's not in the FAQ.

Good job the GW rules team aren't responsible for writing actual laws I can well believe it is an oversight.

[Asuryan]

I would say only once because it doesn't say for every wound. Where as the Dire sword from Eldar does state for each unsaved wound.

[Melon-neko]

I think it has to be for every wound. Remember that as per the rules, you allocate wounds 1 at a time, make your save(s), then move on to the next wound in the wound pool. We often accelerate the process because we don't want the game to last 5 hours >.>

The way it reads to me is you allocate the wound, make a save is possible, make FnP if possible, then if the wound is unsaved, make a toughness test for the black mace.
Move on to the next wound in the wound pool.

[Caitsidhe]

I'm afraid I have to agree with the notion that you must take the test (at least for now) for each unsaved wound. The write up is VERY specific. If you suffer an unsaved wound (the moment you don't save) you take the test. Then you go to the next wound, and so on. They may add this to the Faq later, but the RAW is pretty clear.

[DarkLink]

Yes, it's one test per wound. The condition to forcing a test is taking a wound, singular. Taking one wound triggers one test, and once you take that one test the conditions are satisfied, but that leaves any additional wounds unresolved. Thus, you must take tests until you've satisfied the requirements for each wound.

[jifel]

I would say that no matter how many wounds, its one test. I'm basing this off the precedent of Tyranid Boneswords, which do the exact same thing except cause a Leadership instead of a Toughness test.

[DarkLink]

Boneswords do not do the exact same thing. Boneswords specify "one or more unsaved wounds". The Black Mace does not. That's a very important difference.

[Aramel]

"If a model suffers an unsaved Wound from the Black Mace it must immediately take a Toughness test."

Blows struck at the same initiative step are simultaneous right? That means that all wounds are inflicted at the same time. Therefore you would at most take one test per model, per combat phase. The only reason we roll saves one after another is to represent the new wound allocation rules. If it were otherwise it would be clearly stated that the test must be taken for each and every wound.

However, feel no pain is not a save, so I assumes the mace bypasses it?

[Patrick Boyle]

I think it has to be for every wound. Remember that as per the rules, you allocate wounds 1 at a time, make your save(s), then move on to the next wound in the wound pool. We often accelerate the process because we don't want the game to last 5 hours >.>

The way it reads to me is you allocate the wound, make a save is possible, make FnP if possible, then if the wound is unsaved, make a toughness test for the black mace.
Move on to the next wound in the wound pool.

Don't forget, Feel No Pain is not a save, as soon as you've failed your Armor/Cover/Invul save, you have suffered an unsaved wound regardless of the result of your Feel No Pain roll. Reference the BRB faq on when Force Weapons are activated in regard to Feel No Pain for precedent.

[DarkLink]

FNP isn't a save, but you ignore the effects of the wound when you make FNP, so you don't have to take the T test.

[Allen Broussard]

But you dont get to take FNP againgst instant death effects, i.e. force weapon activation.

Hmm.....black maces toughness test doesnt cause instant death though. it removes the model.


Tricksy tricksy

[euansmith]

GW always say that they write their rules loosely because they expect them to be used in friendly games; however, there is nothing likely to take the chumminess out of a friendly game faster than a set of loosely written rules. This is one reason why I've given up on 40k :D

[SacredChao]

I would give more credence to the black mace only causing 1 toughness test, except that in the exact same entry it didn't use the "caused at least 1 unsaved wound" phrase. It's "An Unsaved Wound" for the target, and "Caused At Least One Unsaved Wound" for the aura effect.

As for Feel No Pain, I would imagine that the order is this: Wound -> Armor/Invuln/Cover -> Effect of Unsaved Wound -> Feel No Pain (if alive).

Although it occurs to me that the last two order probably doesn't matter, since Feel No Pain isn't a save and can't have an effect on something triggered from unsaved wounds, besides the actual wound of the model.

[SeattleDV8]

If you have Feel No Pain you make a roll to 'avoid being wounded' if you pass the roll 'the unsaved Wound is discounted'

There is no longer an unsaved Wound if you pass the FnP test, therefore no toughness test.

[DarkLink]

If you pass FNP, you don't actually suffer the unsaved wound. You don't take the T test.

[Magpie]

If you don't suffer and Unsaved Wound you can take FNP, so you do suffer the wound but the effects of it are ignored.

[Aramel]

Even if you pass your FNP, it's still an unsaved wound... The wound was prevented by something other than a save. Whether it not an actual wound is ignored does not come into play.

[Nabterayl]

Even if you pass your FNP, it's still an unsaved wound...
I don't think that's true. As page 35 says, upon a successful FNP roll, "the unsaved Wound is discounted - treat it as having been saved."

FNP converts unsaved wounds to saved wounds.

[Lunar Camel]

It would appear that if a multi-wound model loses one save it dies (almost like taking damage from a Force Weapon). "If a model suffers an unsaved Wound from the Black Mace it must immediately take a Toughness test. If the test is failed, remove the model as a casualty with no saves of any kind allowed." So you would first take your appropiate armor saves first (regular, invulnerable, FNP). After that its a characteristic test and not a failed armor save. By failing the test, then you suffer the effects of the weapon. But as the Black Mace rules say, if the test is failed (not the wound save) you're dead.

[Tynskel]

GW always say that they write their rules loosely because they expect them to be used in friendly games; however, there is nothing likely to take the chumminess out of a friendly game faster than a set of loosely written rules. This is one reason why I've given up on 40k :D

Uhhhh... Why are you on this forum..

[Magpie]

I don't think that's true. As page 35 says, upon a successful FNP roll, "the unsaved Wound is discounted - treat it as having been saved."

FNP converts unsaved wounds to saved wounds.

Also on Page 35 is "this is not a saving throw" it's not a save but it is treated as if it was one.
i.e. it has all the benefits of a save but it is still an unsaved wound.

[Nabterayl]

Why do you think that it's still treated as an unsaved wound despite the fact that we are told to "treat it as having been saved?"

[Caitsidhe]

I suspect because Games Workshop, par for the course, has used verbage that is inconclusive. I can see both sides of the argument. My view is that FNP is not a saved wound, but rather you get to ignore the wound as if you saved. The Black Mace should still trigger. Even so, I think there is a basis on the poor wording to argue it the other way too.

[DarkLink]

If you ignore the wound, then you didn't suffer an unsaved wound to trigger the test.

[RTFRB]

Is there a limit on the number of same characteristic tests that can occur in a phase? I vaguely recall a bit about having only to pass leadership once no matter how many causes. ( pinning, maybe) I'm wondering if some wording exists that states something similiar for all characteristic tests. Apologies - no rule book at work. In other words, having passed the toughness test once would count for all wounds caused.

[Caitsidhe]

If you ignore the wound, then you didn't suffer an unsaved wound to trigger the test.

I would agree with you except that the wording betrays it. FNP doesn't trigger until you suffered an unsaved wound. The wording on the Black Mace says you IMMEDIATELY take that Test. This would happen before the FNP even, bypassing any real argument like you are making. If you fail it you are gone. I suppose if it was the FNP Player's turn he could argue he/she gets to set resolution priority if the things happen at the same time, but nothing about FNP says "immediately" so again I'm not sure you would get to take priorty.

Getting to ignore the effect doesn't change the fact that you had to suffer the unsaved wound to even get the FNP roll. All it takes to trigger the Black Mace is suffering the intial effect.

[Anakzar]

From the wording here is how I would work it out.

First the target takes a wound and fails its save. Black mace forces the toughness test, if failed target dies. If target passes the toughness test, then target takes a FNP to ignore the unsaved wound.

[Tynskel]

I would agree with you except that the wording betrays it. FNP doesn't trigger until you suffered an unsaved wound. The wording on the Black Mace says you IMMEDIATELY take that Test. This would happen before the FNP even, bypassing any real argument like you are making. If you fail it you are gone. I suppose if it was the FNP Player's turn he could argue he/she gets to set resolution priority if the things happen at the same time, but nothing about FNP says "immediately" so again I'm not sure you would get to take priorty.

Getting to ignore the effect doesn't change the fact that you had to suffer the unsaved wound to even get the FNP roll. All it takes to trigger the Black Mace is suffering the intial effect.

The whole point of FNP is to ignore the wound. It seems quite odd to roll the Black Mace, then be able to ignore the wound. It seems to be that the Black Mace is contingent on failure of a wound, and that should be after all attempts to prevent the wound have been exhausted.

Think of it this way: the Black Mace is *not* Instant Death, it is remove model, contingent upon failed save, contingent upon a toughness test. If you fail the toughness test, then pass FNP, then what happens? Nothing, because you technically never failed the save.

The Black Mace is *not* directly conflicting with the rulebook here. All it says is that you must have failed the save. There's no reason to assume, even with the word 'immediately' that you do not have the opportunity to exhaust all forms of attempts to prevent the wound.

[Caitsidhe]

The whole point of FNP is to ignore the wound. It seems quite odd to roll the Black Mace, then be able to ignore the wound. It seems to be that the Black Mace is contingent on failure of a wound, and that should be after all attempts to prevent the wound have been exhausted.

Think of it this way: the Black Mace is *not* Instant Death, it is remove model, contingent upon failed save, contingent upon a toughness test. If you fail the toughness test, then pass FNP, then what happens? Nothing, because you technically never failed the save.

The Black Mace is *not* directly conflicting with the rulebook here. All it says is that you must have failed the save. There's no reason to assume, even with the word 'immediately' that you do not have the opportunity to exhaust all forms of attempts to prevent the wound.


I'm not arguing about the "spirit of the rule." I have no idea what Games Workshop intends here. I'm simply saying the RAW is clear. Even that aside, we aren't talking about a wound here. We are talking about a triggered effect. FNP ignores the wound, but it does not get to ignore the triggered effect. We could liken it, if you want to talk about the spirit of the rules, to...

A Space Marine is splashed with acid. The person with FNP might ignore the effects of teh wound he suffered because he doesn't feel it, but that doesn't stop the "triggered effect" from kicking in. Perhaps his armor save is reduced or eliminated. You get the idea. I think trying to guess the RAI is just a pain in the butt and is always going to fall to bias. For that reason I'll be glad if/when they get around to giving us more details on FNP interactions with the Black Mace.

Until that time, FNP won't save you from it.

[chicop76]

Without going to the books and going by my WAG( Wild A@@ Guess). This is how I Think it works.

When the black mace cause a wound the model is forced a toughness test. I remember reading somewhere that something in 6th still counts as a wound even though FNP kicks in. You still have an unsaved wound if FNP kicks in or not.

However for my point to be valid I will no doubt have to grab my books and look to back up what I am saying. It might be in the FAQ. Also I think their might be something in the Daemon codex as well. I will read the Space Marine dex since it is in front my face and I have to go in the car to get the other two.

[DarkLink]

I would agree with you except that the wording betrays it. FNP doesn't trigger until you suffered an unsaved wound. The wording on the Black Mace says you IMMEDIATELY take that Test.

And then you ignore the wound if you pass FNP. What is so difficult to understand about the word 'ignore'?

[chicop76]

And then you ignore the wound if you pass FNP. What is so difficult to understand about the word 'ignore'?

I just read FAQ and Main plus Space Marines and I don't see anything that says diferantly.

[rle68]

From the wording here is how I would work it out.

First the target takes a wound and fails its save. Black mace forces the toughness test, if failed target dies. If target passes the toughness test, then target takes a FNP to ignore the unsaved wound.

nope your order of operations is out of whack...take wound.check..fail save...check...requires T test.. on hold... fnp triggers.. check ..fnp successful.. no T test.. unsuccessful Toughness test initiated.. check.. thats proper order

i base this off the thought that all tests are done after all combat operations have been completed..leadership etc all done end of combat phase.. fnp is before

[rle68]

""""I remember reading somewhere that something in 6th still counts as a wound even though FNP kicks in. You still have an unsaved wound if FNP kicks in or not.""""

please find this.. i have never seen anything close to that but i can as easily miss it as anyone else

[DarkLink]

Ok. This isn't rocket surgery.

1. To check to see if I need to take a T test, I need to answer the question "did I take an unsaved wound".

2. Yeah, I took an unsaved wound, then ignored it via FNP, so I took an unsaved... oh, wait, I just pulled out my dictionary and looked up the word 'ignore'. It says this:


ig·nore

/igˈnôr/


Verb




Refuse to take notice of or acknowledge; disregard intentionally: "he ignored her question".









So... I ignore the fact that I took an unsaved wound. Since I'm ignoring the unsaved wound, the question to "did I take an unsaved wound" is "no".

3. IF(2=Y,test,no test) ---> no test. I don't take a T test.

[rle68]

Ok. This isn't rocket surgery.

1. To check to see if I need to take a T test, I need to answer the question "did I take an unsaved wound".

2. Yeah, I took an unsaved wound, then ignored it via FNP, so I took an unsaved... oh, wait, I just pulled out my dictionary and looked up the word 'ignore'. It says this:



So... I ignore the fact that I took an unsaved wound. Since I'm ignoring the unsaved wound, the question to "did I take an unsaved wound" is "no".

3. IF(2=Y,test,no test) ---> no test. I don't take a T test.

couldnt agree with you more

[chicop76]

""""I remember reading somewhere that something in 6th still counts as a wound even though FNP kicks in. You still have an unsaved wound if FNP kicks in or not.""""

please find this.. i have never seen anything close to that but i can as easily miss it as anyone else

I"m looking. Thought I saw that somewhere too.

[Tynskel]

Ok. This isn't rocket surgery.

1. To check to see if I need to take a T test, I need to answer the question "did I take an unsaved wound".

2. Yeah, I took an unsaved wound, then ignored it via FNP, so I took an unsaved... oh, wait, I just pulled out my dictionary and looked up the word 'ignore'. It says this:



So... I ignore the fact that I took an unsaved wound. Since I'm ignoring the unsaved wound, the question to "did I take an unsaved wound" is "no".

3. IF(2=Y,test,no test) ---> no test. I don't take a T test.

Oh, you aren't allowed to use dictionaries here. I tried a few years ago, and people told me I was wrong when we were debating about combat squads...

[Asuryan]

I remember reading somewhere that something in 6th still counts as a wound even though FNP kicks in. You still have an unsaved wound if FNP kicks in or not.


As for Feel No Pain, I would imagine that the order is this: Wound -> Armor/Invuln/Cover -> Effect of Unsaved Wound -> Feel No Pain (if alive).

Although it occurs to me that the last two order probably doesn't matter, since Feel No Pain isn't a save and can't have an effect on something triggered from unsaved wounds, besides the actual wound of the model.

The typical result of an unsaved wound is the loss of one wound from the models wound count. if FNP goes after the effects of an unsaved wound and they only have one wound, by your order of operations because they are no longer alive they wouldn't get to make FNP rolls. If even after a FNP roll is successfully passed and it still counts as an unsaved wound, where does said unsaved wound go?

[Magpie]

Ok. This isn't rocket surgery.

1. To check to see if I need to take a T test, I need to answer the question "did I take an unsaved wound".

2. Yeah, I took an unsaved wound, then ignored it via FNP, so I took an unsaved... oh, wait, I just pulled out my dictionary and looked up the word 'ignore'. It says this:

So... I ignore the fact that I took an unsaved wound. Since I'm ignoring the unsaved wound, the question to "did I take an unsaved wound" is "no".

3. IF(2=Y,test,no test) ---> no test. I don't take a T test.

Great wrap up on the word "ignore", sadly "ignore" does not appear in the FNP rule.

The wound is discounted (Oxford Dictionary :a deduction from the usual cost of something). An unsaved wound usually costs you a wound, with FNP it does not. You get it at the bargain price of 0.

You are still the proud owner of an unsaved wound however.

[chicop76]

The typical result of an unsaved wound is the loss of one wound from the models wound count. if FNP goes after the effects of an unsaved wound and they only have one wound, by your order of operations because they are no longer alive they wouldn't get to make FNP rolls. If even after a FNP roll is successfully passed and it still counts as an unsaved wound, where does said unsaved wound go?

I swore I read something that said otherwise. I just have to find it or I am tripping. Until I read otherwise it would seem to prevent the black mace effect.

However at some point you have an unsaved wound. If Mace goes before FNP if you pass your toughness test you will still be able to roll fnp. If FNP is before than the way FNP is worded if you pass FNP the Mace effect is negated.

I would say FNP would happen first due to imediately is used, while Mace says as soon as a wound is taken. Honestly I would go by whose turn it is for which goes off first or roll for it.

[Caitsidhe]

Look, I don't care how they rule on it eventually in the Faq. Some people here are getting emotional. I am merely addressing two distinct things which bear on the RAW:

1. The order of resolution makes the entire argument moot. The Toughness test will happen before the FNP roll (immediately) and if failed the model is removed before it even gets to make one. This is an order of operation triggered in a specific way.

2. The wording of the USR is also VERY specific. It states that "when a models suffers an unsaved wound..." the rest of it follows. This means the trigger for the Black Mace happens. Moreover, the USR does not say you get to ignore taking the wound. It simply says you avoid being wounded. As another person points out, it is a discount (not ignore as if that mattered in the first place). It means whatever happened to you still happened but you get to avoid the "wound" part. The triggered effect is not a wound and thus it still applies.

I'm a CSM player. I have a lot of stuff that has FNP or the potential to get FNP. I fight the Black Mace all the time myself so you can trust me when I say that I'm not biased one way or the other. It hurts me to say FNP would get to ignore the Black Mace. It hurts me to say it does not. :) I'm simply pointing out the RAW on pure order of resolution bypasses FNP in this case, and even if it didn't, the verbage of FNP doesn't discount triggered effects. It only discounts wounds.

[Tynskel]

Look, I don't care how they rule on it eventually in the Faq. Some people here are getting emotional. I am merely addressing two distinct things which bear on the RAW:

1. The order of resolution makes the entire argument moot. The Toughness test will happen before the FNP roll (immediately) and if failed the model is removed before it even gets to make one. This is an order of operation triggered in a specific way.

2. The wording of the USR is also VERY specific. It states that "when a models suffers an unsaved wound..." the rest of it follows. This means the trigger for the Black Mace happens. Moreover, the USR does not say you get to ignore taking the wound. It simply says you avoid being wounded. As another person points out, it is a discount (not ignore as if that mattered in the first place). It means whatever happened to you still happened but you get to avoid the "wound" part. The triggered effect is not a wound and thus it still applies.

I'm a CSM player. I have a lot of stuff that has FNP or the potential to get FNP. I fight the Black Mace all the time myself so you can trust me when I say that I'm not biased one way or the other. It hurts me to say FNP would get to ignore the Black Mace. It hurts me to say it does not. :) I'm simply pointing out the RAW on pure order of resolution bypasses FNP in this case, and even if it didn't, the verbage of FNP doesn't discount triggered effects. It only discounts wounds.

there is no reason to believe that the Toughness test interrupts the chance to negate the wound. Immediately could easily mean, after the wound has been unsaved (i.e., make all attempts to save the wound). Note that it doesn't say 'immediately while the wound is unsaved'. That would mean, before any attempt to save the wound.

[Caitsidhe]

there is no reason to believe that the Toughness test interrupts the chance to negate the wound. Immediately could easily mean, after the wound has been unsaved (i.e., make all attempts to save the wound). Note that it doesn't say 'immediately while the wound is unsaved'. That would mean, before any attempt to save the wound.

At best, when two things resolve at the same time, the player whose turn it is sets priority. However, since the Black Mace has an immediately and the FNP doesn't, I would expect it goes first regardless.

[mathhammer]

I"m looking. Thought I saw that somewhere too.

Epidiums chaos deamons.

Explicitly states that a wound ignored by FnP is still counted as an unsaved wound. The shift in 6th of FnP not being considered a save at all.

[chicop76]

Epidiums chaos deamons.

Explicitly states that a wound ignored by FnP is still counted as an unsaved wound. The shift in 6th of FnP not being considered a save at all.

Yeah that's it. Figured it was in Daemons. They still count a wound as unsaved even though you pass FNP. With that in mind I would think FNP would not negate the Black Mace effects.

[Caitsidhe]

That would seem to be a precedent of the exact same nature.

[Tynskel]

That cannot be correct, because you do not count FNP towards combat resolution because the wounds were no longer 'unsaved'.

[rle68]

Yeah that's it. Figured it was in Daemons. They still count a wound as unsaved even though you pass FNP. With that in mind I would think FNP would not negate the Black Mace effects.

and codex "rules" only affect the army the dex is written for.

in my mind it doesnt matter based solely on order of operations...any toughness test, leadership test etc comes at the end of all operation the fnp rule happens before it.. if you pass fnp then there is not test to make as no wound is inflicted

if i was to accept your thinking (not you specifically) but in general, the other way around.. then youd be saying since fnp doesnt remove the wound the model would still die as a result if it had only 1 wound? of course you wouldnt

why would you discount it the other way?

[G00dySmiley]

there are so few instances where this will matter, but i would say ok to taking a toughness test before my feel no pain with the understanding that if i fail the toughness check and then pass a feel no pain the wound and the resulting failed test were nullified as there is no wound or effect from a wound .. ie wow i would have died form that one wound if i had felt it

[chicop76]

The Daemon codex is a perfect example. Feel no Pain still prevents wounds, but for the tally a wound is a wound, even if it is negated by FnP. I recon this will be the same for black mace. You still get FnP just do not fail the toughness test.

[Patrick Boyle]

Going back to my comment here on the first page, I don't have the CSM book in front of me but how does the wording on when the Black Mace triggers compare to the Force Weapon activation rules in the BRB? The Force special rule(Pg 37) states "If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a warp charge and taking a psychic test." In the BRB FAQ it specifically clarifies that activating a Force Weapon takes place before Feel No Pain rolls. It sounds like, from other posts in this thread, the Black Mace has the same 'immediately after inflicting an unsaved wound' wording, no? In that case it seems pretty safe to me to assume that the Black Mace's effect is rolled for before FNP.

The part of the FAQ in question

Q: In assault, what comes first – Feel No Pain rolls or the roll to
activate a Force weapon? (p37)
A: The roll to activate a Force Weapon is made before
determining whether or not the victim is permitted a Feel
No Pain roll.

[rle68]

Going back to my comment here on the first page, I don't have the CSM book in front of me but how does the wording on when the Black Mace triggers compare to the Force Weapon activation rules in the BRB? The Force special rule(Pg 37) states "If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a warp charge and taking a psychic test." In the BRB FAQ it specifically clarifies that activating a Force Weapon takes place before Feel No Pain rolls. It sounds like, from other posts in this thread, the Black Mace has the same 'immediately after inflicting an unsaved wound' wording, no? In that case it seems pretty safe to me to assume that the Black Mace's effect is rolled for before FNP.

The part of the FAQ in question

Q: In assault, what comes first – Feel No Pain rolls or the roll to
activate a Force weapon? (p37)
A: The roll to activate a Force Weapon is made before
determining whether or not the victim is permitted a Feel
No Pain roll.

and at what phase of the cc do all tests come at?... your answer is the answer to this question.. nuff said

[rle68]

1. The order of resolution makes the entire argument moot. The Toughness test will happen before the FNP roll (immediately) and if failed the model is removed before it even gets to make one. This is an order of operation triggered in a specific way.

you would be incorrect im sorry.. all tests are done at the end of the combat phase and you know this.. im trying to figure out why all of sudden no one seems to know this?

has anyone actually posted the rule for the black mace in its entirety?

cus after reading more im now no longer convinced...all tests are done at the end of the combat phase, however an item could make that test be done "immediately"

does the black mace cause instant death or remove the model as a casualty?.. as instant death would negate fnp entirely

[Tynskel]

It is not Instant Death.

[rle68]

It is not Instant Death.

Thanks.. after reading it again fnp comes before the mace's ability fnp is tied to a saving throw and all saves come before any type of test

order of operations would seem to be

wound
save... made no issue
failed...fnp...if made no issue
fnp... if failed wound allocation
mace test inititated

results accordingly

dont see the issue...because the weapon does allow saves all save steps need to be exhausted before effects can take place, and unless pointed out differently any tests for leadership etc are made after all saves steps are complete and any or all wounds are allocated

[Patrick Boyle]

Thanks.. after reading it again fnp comes before the mace's ability fnp is tied to a saving throw and all saves come before any type of test

False.

Pg 35 Feel No Pain
"When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded(this is not a saving throw)..."

As established in the FAQ answer above, some weapon effects come before Feel No Pain. In the case of the Force rule specific to the FAQ above, Force weapons the user can 'immediately choose to activate it' and take a psychic test to add Instant Death to the wounds. Immediately is the keyword here.

The Black Mace's 'Cursed' special rule reads...
"If a model suffers an unsaved Wound from the Black Mace it must immediately take a toughness test. If the test is failed, remove the model as a casualty with no saves of any kind allowed"

Again, Force weapons which are FAQ'd to activate before feel no pain read
"If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it..."

In the case of the Force weapon the inflicted wounds gain Instant Death, which you can't take FNP against(also specified in the FNP rule). For the mace, after the test if they failed they are removed as a casualty. Following the wording of both rules and the ruling in the FAQ, it seems obvious to me that the Mace's toughness test, and subsequent removal as a casualty on failure, occur before a FNP roll would be allowed.

[rle68]

False.

Pg 35 Feel No Pain
"When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded(this is not a saving throw)..."

As established in the FAQ answer above, some weapon effects come before Feel No Pain. In the case of the Force rule specific to the FAQ above, Force weapons the user can 'immediately choose to activate it' and take a psychic test to add Instant Death to the wounds. Immediately is the keyword here.

The Black Mace's 'Cursed' special rule reads...
"If a model suffers an unsaved Wound from the Black Mace it must immediately take a toughness test. If the test is failed, remove the model as a casualty with no saves of any kind allowed"

Again, Force weapons which are FAQ'd to activate before feel no pain read
"If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it..."

In the case of the Force weapon the inflicted wounds gain Instant Death, which you can't take FNP against(also specified in the FNP rule). For the mace, after the test if they failed they are removed as a casualty. Following the wording of both rules and the ruling in the FAQ, it seems obvious to me that the Mace's toughness test, and subsequent removal as a casualty on failure, occur before a FNP roll would be allowed.

stop not quoting the entire rule...

fnp... ill finish off where you failed to finish for your own benefit

roll a d6 each time an unsaved wound is suffered. on a 4 or less you must take the wound as normal. on a 5+ the unsaved wound is discounted-treat it as having been saved.

there you go EACH TIME this is before your black mace goes off your ability doesnt cancel fnp

i really hate when people dont post the entire rule to make their points

Stop bringing in force weapons, that is not the discussion here and doesnt prove your point at all.. that is how force weapons work vs fnp not the black mace.. the difference is a force weapon is not a Toughness test..ALL tests occur at the end of the combat phase.. and as a second note.. force weapons ignore fnp as they cause instant death which is why they go before the fnp process the black mace does not

and once again until fnp is resolved we dont know if there are any unsaved wounds...

"""" it seems obvious to me"""" there is your second mistake

[Patrick Boyle]

Feel No Pain is not a save. There is an unsaved wound before Feel No Pain because the FNP rule specifies that it occurs after an unsaved wound has been suffered. Force Weapons are relevant because the question was whether psychic test to activate instant death happens before or after the model roles for Feel No Pain. In the same way the question of this thread is 'When do you roll the test for the Black Mace?'

Pg 35 Feel No Pain
"When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded(this is not a saving throw)..."

The Black Mace's 'Cursed' special rule reads...
"If a model suffers an unsaved Wound from the Black Mace it must immediately take a toughness test. If the test is failed, remove the model as a casualty with no saves of any kind allowed"

Unsaved wound is the condition for both rules to come into effect. The Black Mace specifies that its test is immediate. I brought up Force Weapons because they also require an unsaved wound, and specify their effect is immediate, and they are FAQ confirmed to roll their psychic test before Feel No Pain. Taking into account that both the Black Mace's 'Cursed' and Feel No Pain rely on the same condition to trigger, and there's precedent for another 'immediate' effect requiring an unsaved wound to occur first, the Black Mace should come before Feel No Pain.

[rle68]

Feel No Pain is not a save. There is an unsaved wound before Feel No Pain because the FNP rule specifies that it occurs after an unsaved wound has been suffered. Force Weapons are relevant because the question was whether psychic test to activate instant death happens before or after the model roles for Feel No Pain. In the same way the question of this thread is 'When do you roll the test for the Black Mace?'

Pg 35 Feel No Pain
"When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded(this is not a saving throw)..."

The Black Mace's 'Cursed' special rule reads...
"If a model suffers an unsaved Wound from the Black Mace it must immediately take a toughness test. If the test is failed, remove the model as a casualty with no saves of any kind allowed"

Unsaved wound is the condition for both rules to come into effect. The Black Mace specifies that its test is immediate. I brought up Force Weapons because they also require an unsaved wound, and specify their effect is immediate, and they are FAQ confirmed to roll their psychic test before Feel No Pain. Taking into account that both the Black Mace's 'Cursed' and Feel No Pain rely on the same condition to trigger, and there's precedent for another 'immediate' effect requiring an unsaved wound to occur first, the Black Mace should come before Feel No Pain.

once again you didnt post all of fnp which invalidates your entire post..

force weapons ignore fnp as they cause instant death the black mace does not.. fnp rolls are not allowed vs force weapons they are vs black mace.. and fyi should a psychic test be failed or the player failing to cast one for whatever reason a fnp would the be allowed...instant death vs non instant death

how much clearer can it be made?

you dont know if you have an unsaved wound as if you have the fnp ability if you take an unsaved wound you roll EACH TIME..and then if you pass it you HAVE NO UNSAVED WOUND.. you cannot roll the black mace before you know whether or not you have one case closed.

honestly i dont know why im even trying to defend fnp none of my armies have it lmfao

[Patrick Boyle]

once again you didnt post all of fnp which invalidates your entire post..

force weapons ignore fnp as they cause instant death the black mace does not.. fnp rolls are not allowed vs force weapons they are vs black mace.. and fyi should a psychic test be failed or the player failing to cast one for whatever reason a fnp would the be allowed...instant death vs non instant death

how much clearer can it be made?

you dont know if you have an unsaved wound as if you have the fnp ability if you take an unsaved wound you roll EACH TIME..and then if you pass it you HAVE NO UNSAVED WOUND.. you cannot roll the black mace before you know whether or not you have one case closed.


Why don't you read the entirity of FNP?

"When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded (this is not a save). Roll a D6 each time an Unsaved Wound is suffered. On a 4 or less, you must take the Wound as normal. On a 5+, the unsaved Wound is discounted - treat it as having been saved."

You have already suffered an unsaved Wound before Feel No Pain gives you a roll to ignore it. The FNP rule states that plain as day.

Force Weapons don't ignore feel no pain, you get to roll the psychic test before Feel No Pain. You get to roll the test before FNP, that is the relevant part of the Force Weapon ruling I keep bringing up.

So again, Unsaved wounds are the trigger for Feel No Pain, the Black Mace's 'Cursed', and the Force rule. Both 'Cursed' and Force specify their relevant tests take place immediately(see my previous quotes of the rules in question). Force is FAQ'd to test before FNP, therefore due to similar wording it seems so should 'Cursed' on the Mace.

Anyone else out there care to weigh in? We're just going in circle here.

[chicop76]

Force Weapons cause instant death and negates FNP. However the text does illustrate the order that FNP happens after the force weapon effect. You can argue the same for the black mace as well.

I see an unsaved wound still being caused. Black Mace happens than FnP restores the unsaved wound to a saved wound.

[rle68]

Force Weapons cause instant death and negates FNP. However the text does illustrate the order that FNP happens after the force weapon effect. You can argue the same for the black mace as well.

I see an unsaved wound still being caused. Black Mace happens than FnP restores the unsaved wound to a saved wound.

and if the black mace toughness test is failed it invalidates the fnp roll.. that doesnt work that way .. fnp clearly states you roll each time an unsaved wound is caused that precludes the black maces toughness test

[rle68]

Why don't you read the entirity of FNP?

"When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded (this is not a save). Roll a D6 each time an Unsaved Wound is suffered. On a 4 or less, you must take the Wound as normal. On a 5+, the unsaved Wound is discounted - treat it as having been saved."

You have already suffered an unsaved Wound before Feel No Pain gives you a roll to ignore it. The FNP rule states that plain as day.

Force Weapons don't ignore feel no pain, you get to roll the psychic test before Feel No Pain. You get to roll the test before FNP, that is the relevant part of the Force Weapon ruling I keep bringing up.

So again, Unsaved wounds are the trigger for Feel No Pain, the Black Mace's 'Cursed', and the Force rule. Both 'Cursed' and Force specify their relevant tests take place immediately(see my previous quotes of the rules in question). Force is FAQ'd to test before FNP, therefore due to similar wording it seems so should 'Cursed' on the Mace.

Anyone else out there care to weigh in? We're just going in circle here.

i did read it in its entirety you obviously dont fully understand it.. it clearly says you roll fnp each time you suffer an unsaved wound thus if passed there is NO unsaved wound for your mace to work on

and as chicop pointed out force weapons when activated do ignore fnp..since your not clear on that ... well ill leave it be

[Patrick Boyle]

and if the black mace toughness test is failed it invalidates the fnp roll.. that doesnt work that way .. fnp clearly states you roll each time an unsaved wound is caused that precludes the black maces toughness test

By that logic it should also come before the psychic test to activate the force weapon, but the FAQ states that isn't the case. I understand perfectly well the Force Weapon interaction on a model that has feel no pain

1. Psyker wielding a weapon with the Force rule inflicts wounds
2. target model fails some number of armor/invul saves, causing unsaved wounds
3. Psyker wielding force weapon chooses to immediately takes a psychic test, as per the Force special rule
4a. Test passed: inflicted unsaved wounds gain Instant Death. The target model now either dies, or suffers wounds if it has Eternal Warrior, as Feel No Pain rolls cannot be taken against wounds inflicting Instant Death
4b. Test fails: target model gets to make Feel No Pain rolls for each unsaved wound.

Everything after step 3 there is irrelevant to why I'm bringing Force Weapons up. Based on the similarity in the wording between 'Cursed' and Force on when they say the tests are made, and the FAQ for Force, my logic is the Black Mace goes like this

1. Black Mace inflicts wounds
2. Target model fails some number of armor/invul saves, causing unsaved wounds
3. Due to the Cursed rule for the Black Mace, the target model immediately takes a Toughness test.
4a. Test is passed: Model makes Feel No Pain rolls for each unsaved wound
4b. Test is failed: Model is removed as a casualty, bypassing Feel No Pain roles

You're arguing that for the Black Mace, steps 3 and 4 swap places such that we get

3. Model makes Feel No Pain rolls for each unsaved wound
4. If any unsaved wounds were not ignored by FNP, take a toughness test
5a. Test passes: continue as normal
5b. Test fails: Model is removed as a casualty regardless of how many wounds it has remaining

Again it comes down to when is the test made. Because all three rules, Feel No Pain, Cursed, and Force, all have unsaved wounds as a pre-requisite, and because both Force and Cursed specify the tests are made immediately, and because it has already been FAQd that the test for a Force weapon occurs before the role for Feel No Pain, it seems to follow that my order for the black mace is correct.

[rle68]

By that logic it should also come before the psychic test to activate the force weapon, but the FAQ states that isn't the case. I understand perfectly well the Force Weapon interaction on a model that has feel no pain

1. Psyker wielding a weapon with the Force rule inflicts wounds
2. target model fails some number of armor/invul saves, causing unsaved wounds
3. Psyker wielding force weapon chooses to immediately takes a psychic test, as per the Force special rule
4a. Test passed: inflicted unsaved wounds gain Instant Death. The target model now either dies, or suffers wounds if it has Eternal Warrior, as Feel No Pain rolls cannot be taken against wounds inflicting Instant Death
4b. Test fails: target model gets to make Feel No Pain rolls for each unsaved wound.

Everything after step 3 there is irrelevant to why I'm bringing Force Weapons up. Based on the similarity in the wording between 'Cursed' and Force on when they say the tests are made, and the FAQ for Force, my logic is the Black Mace goes like this

1. Black Mace inflicts wounds
2. Target model fails some number of armor/invul saves, causing unsaved wounds
3. Due to the Cursed rule for the Black Mace, the target model immediately takes a Toughness test.
4a. Test is passed: Model makes Feel No Pain rolls for each unsaved wound
4b. Test is failed: Model is removed as a casualty, bypassing Feel No Pain roles

You're arguing that for the Black Mace, steps 3 and 4 swap places such that we get

3. Model makes Feel No Pain rolls for each unsaved wound
4. If any unsaved wounds were not ignored by FNP, take a toughness test
5a. Test passes: continue as normal
5b. Test fails: Model is removed as a casualty regardless of how many wounds it has remaining

Again it comes down to when is the test made. Because all three rules, Feel No Pain, Cursed, and Force, all have unsaved wounds as a pre-requisite, and because both Force and Cursed specify the tests are made immediately, and because it has already been FAQd that the test for a Force weapon occurs before the role for Feel No Pain, it seems to follow that my order for the black mace is correct.

how many times must it be said that force weapons ignore fnp rules thats why they go before not after

your second set of values is the way it goes

you keep harping about the force weapon faq and its been pointed out i dont know how many times it because force weapons cause instant death and thus fnp is not allowed

force weapons are not black maces the two are not compatible.. the force weapon faq doesnt apply here

and yes im telling you the black mace does not override a fnp roll thats what you are failing to grasp...how hard is it to think that if a fnp roll is made your black mace does nothing

i get it .. you dont like it cus its a 5+ re roll for a save.. thats what it is

[Tynskel]

the black mace does not cause Instant Death. It causes 'remove as casualty'. This is a big distinction. FNP works against ALL wounds except for when instant death is involved.

[Patrick Boyle]

how many times must it be said that force weapons ignore fnp rules thats why they go before not after

your second set of values is the way it goes

you keep harping about the force weapon faq and its been pointed out i dont know how many times it because force weapons cause instant death and thus fnp is not allowed

Force Weapons do not ignore Feel No Pain, they roll their psychic test before FNP. If the test passes, the wounds have instant death and you can't make feel no pain against them. It is the Instant Death rule that ignores Feel No Pain here, there is nothing special about Force itself that ignores Feel No Pain, other than the fact that the test happens first. The precedent of the test happening first is the entire reason I'm bringing it up.


force weapons are not black maces the two are not compatible.. the force weapon faq doesnt apply here

I find, and chicop agreed at least partially, that the logic of the Force FAQ is relevant, because the wording is similar. Both Force and the Black Mace specifically state their tests occur "immediately" after an unsaved wound is suffered. And as I've pointed out before, Feel No Pain is not a save. The rule itself states that in the first sentence "(this is not a saving throw)".


and yes im telling you the black mace does not override a fnp roll thats what you are failing to grasp...how hard is it to think that if a fnp roll is made your black mace does nothing

i get it .. you dont like it cus its a 5+ re roll for a save.. thats what it is

I will grant you I'm not entirely sure how 'removed as a casualty'(what the mace does if the toughness test is failed) interacts with Feel No Pain. Going off the BRB and Space Wolves FAQs(The BRB confirms that the 'removed from play' effect of Jaws is equivalent' to 'removed as a casualty' as defined in the big book) I'd be inclined to say that once the toughness test was failed that'd be it. That may be a topic for another thread, all I'm really trying to argue here is the order of the tests.

It actually doesn't really effect me one way or the other usually. I don't play Chaos Space Marines and it's rare that my Codex Marines have FNP available, but if I were up against someone using the Black Mace I'd play it the way I laid it out because as far as I can see from the rules as written that's how it works.

[Patrick Boyle]

the black mace does not cause Instant Death. It causes 'remove as casualty'. This is a big distinction. FNP works against ALL wounds except for when instant death is involved.

As I sort of brought up in mentioning Jaws, 'Remove as a Casualty' isn't inflicting a wound though, depending how you read it. One of the Jaws(which 'removes from play', which the BRB states is equivalent to 'removed as a casualty) FAQs states that because it does not inflict a wound, you can't take a cover save against it. It would seem to me that as soon as the test is failed the model is removed, you don't get to take a FNP roll to bring them back to the board. I feel like this is specifically covered somewhere, but I couldn't say where, Jaws was just the first similar situation that jumped to mind. That distinction does make the entire argument somewhat pointless though, if it wasn't already.

[rle68]

""""Force Weapons do not ignore Feel No Pain, they roll their psychic test before FNP. If the test passes, the wounds have instant death and you can't make feel no pain against them.""""

you just said in 33 words what we already said.. its kind of funny you say force weapons dont ignore fnp and you say you cant make a fnp vs them.. ITS THE SAME THING...

let me 'splain to you.. once a force weapon is activated and it has caused an unsaved wound you get no fnp roll because it causes instant death.. thus in order of operation it goes thusly

wound.. check
save.. no
force weapon activation...check
models is killed..
fnp not eligible
end of operations

now for the black mace

wound...check
save...no..
black mace causes instant kill?.. no
fnp roll... yes ...wound not taken
fnp roll...no.. wound taken
black mace rule in effect
fail..removed from game
success.. no effect other then a wound

is it really that hard to figure out?

how many 2 wound models are there that have fnp anyways?

[Patrick Boyle]

""""Force Weapons do not ignore Feel No Pain, they roll their psychic test before FNP. If the test passes, the wounds have instant death and you can't make feel no pain against them.""""

you just said in 33 words what we already said.. its kind of funny you say force weapons dont ignore fnp and you say you cant make a fnp vs them.. ITS THE SAME THING...

let me 'splain to you.. once a force weapon is activated and it has caused an unsaved wound you get no fnp roll because it causes instant death.. thus in order of operation it goes thusly

wound.. check
save.. no
force weapon activation...check
models is killed..
fnp not eligible
end of operations

now for the black mace

wound...check
save...no..
black mace causes instant kill?.. no
fnp roll... yes ...wound not taken
fnp roll...no.. wound taken
black mace rule in effect
fail..removed from game
success.. no effect other then a wound

is it really that hard to figure out?

how many 2 wound models are there that have fnp anyways?

No, I didn't say the same thing you guys said. What aspect of the Force rule ignores FNP? It has nothing to do with Force itself but instead the result of a successful test granting Instant Death. If you could roll for Feel No Pain before the psychic test and ignore the unsaved wounds so there aren't any left, then the Psyker wouldn't be able to make the test to add instant death to the wounds. But the Psychic test happens first, that is the key, important bit there. All I've been trying to say this entire time is that it seems to me that if that test, that happens 'immediately', goes before FNP, why wouldn't other tests that also say they occur 'immediately'? And no, the Mace doesn't cause Instant Death, but you can't Feel No Pain against Jaws of the World Wolf either because the model is already removed from the table, and it causes the same effect as the Mace as per the BRB FAQ.

And no, it's not hard at all, I understand perfectly how you're saying it works, I just feel that my reading is more correct. Clearly we aren't going to move each other's positions on this alone so I'm done debating it until someone else weighs in.

And to answer your last question, Nobs with a painboy, crisis suits and riptides with stimulant injectors, or any given Tyranid psyker with Endurance from Biomancy just off the top of my head. So the original question from this thread(which incidentally to me looks to be one test per model that suffers any number of unsaved wound, but that seems way less clear to me) and the subsequent roundabout we've been stuck in is relevant.

[DarkLink]

Great wrap up on the word "ignore", sadly "ignore" does not appear in the FNP rule.

The wound is discounted (Oxford Dictionary :a deduction from the usual cost of something). An unsaved wound usually costs you a wound, with FNP it does not. You get it at the bargain price of 0.

You are still the proud owner of an unsaved wound however.

Regardless of the actually relevant arguments above, discounted vs ignored is pointless semantics. It has the same effective meaning in this case.

The question "have you taken an unsaved wound" is synonymous with "how many unsaved wounds have you taken, if one or more, then test, if none, no test". Taking zero unsaved wounds because you've discounted a wound means you haven't taken an unsaved wound because you're not counting it.

Now, some people have brought up some good points with the GK Force Weapon FAQ. That's a valid avenue of approach. But arguing that discounted/ignored/whatever doesn't mean what it means? No.

[Learn2Eel]

and as chicop pointed out force weapons when activated do ignore fnp..since your not clear on that ... well ill leave it be

I feel like jumping in here because you've ignored everything that PB is saying. Force Weapons ignore Feel No Pain when they are activated. Before the rulebook FAQ, players didn't know which came first; the test to activate the Force Weapon and thus inflict instant death, or the Feel No Pain roll. The rulebook FAQ clarified that the test to activate the Force Weapon came first because the rulebook states "immediately", much like the Black Mace does. The reason Force Weapons come before Feel No Pain rolls is not because they inflict instant death after a successful test; it is because the test to activate them and thus inflict instant death is resolved immediately after suffering an unsaved wound.

On the argument in general, it seems pretty clear to me that the Cursed rule operates exactly the same as Force Weapons; both state "immediately" after an unsaved wound. The only difference is that we don't have a FAQ for the Black Mace because we already have one for Force Weapons setting the precedent. Personally, I hope they FAQ it the other way though.

[chicop76]

I feel like jumping in here because you've ignored everything that PB is saying. Force Weapons ignore Feel No Pain when they are activated. Before the rulebook FAQ, players didn't know which came first; the test to activate the Force Weapon and thus inflict instant death, or the Feel No Pain roll. The rulebook FAQ clarified that the test to activate the Force Weapon came first because the rulebook states "immediately", much like the Black Mace does. The reason Force Weapons come before Feel No Pain rolls is not because they inflict instant death after a successful test; it is because the test to activate them and thus inflict instant death is resolved immediately after suffering an unsaved wound.

On the argument in general, it seems pretty clear to me that the Cursed rule operates exactly the same as Force Weapons; both state "immediately" after an unsaved wound. The only difference is that we don't have a FAQ for the Black Mace because we already have one for Force Weapons setting the precedent. Personally, I hope they FAQ it the other way though.

Wasn't this said like 10x over.

Wow. I should had went into what I was saying abit more. I was saying the same thing as Patrick in regards of operation of how you test for the force weapon before the FnP goes in effect. If the test passed the force weapon ignores FnP. I was trying to say that in a sentence.

The only part we differ is I was stating that The Tally Man still counts unsaved wounds as unsaved wounds even though FnP changes unsaved to saved. It's the only example where unsaved wounds come into play besides determining win results. My point is at one point you have an unsaved wound. FNP doesn't say before you roll for your unsaved wound roll FnP and if you fail discount having an unsaved wound.

1. You fail your save
2. Unsaved wound
3. Black Mace jumps in similar to Force Weapon test.
4. FnP
5. Unsaved becomes a saved wound.

If

3 is FnP
4 Unsaved becomes Saved
5. BlackMace

In operation two than I can see it being a real argument.

With Jaws the problem is the effect does not cause a wound. Which means FnP would be negated anyway.

[Caitsidhe]

I think we can all agree that this one requires a Faq. It seems to invoke far more emotion than it should. Nine times out of ten, there will be no FNP roll anyway because it would, due to STR, be causing Instant Death. The only occassion that leaps out at me where this is going to come up is when CSM-DP takes on a CD-DP who happens to have FNP and a Toughness higher than five.

There are a few odd other occassions, but let's be honest... this isn't really a big issue.

*Further Clarification: Most CSM players with any wits would use Smash to take their STR to (10) against any multi-wound model that wasn't over Toughness-5 in the first place. I thought this was obvious but apparently not as someone asked me what I was talking about.

[Learn2Eel]

Wasn't this said like 10x over.

Wow. I should had went into what I was saying abit more. I was saying the same thing as Patrick in regards of operation of how you test for the force weapon before the FnP goes in effect. If the test passed the force weapon ignores FnP. I was trying to say that in a sentence.

The only part we differ is I was stating that The Tally Man still counts unsaved wounds as unsaved wounds even though FnP changes unsaved to saved. It's the only example where unsaved wounds come into play besides determining win results. My point is at one point you have an unsaved wound. FNP doesn't say before you roll for your unsaved wound roll FnP and if you fail discount having an unsaved wound.

1. You fail your save
2. Unsaved wound
3. Black Mace jumps in similar to Force Weapon test.
4. FnP
5. Unsaved becomes a saved wound.

If

3 is FnP
4 Unsaved becomes Saved
5. BlackMace

In operation two than I can see it being a real argument.

With Jaws the problem is the effect does not cause a wound. Which means FnP would be negated anyway.

I wasn't quoting you mate, I was referring to rle's point in my post. His posts have so far been slighting PB by repeatedly stating that force weapons ignore Feel No Pain and thus why they test before Feel No Pain rolls without actually responding to PB's over-arching point that the wording for the Black Mace is identical to the wording for force weapons. Sorry for the confusion.

[chicop76]

I wasn't quoting you mate, I was referring to rle's point in my post. His posts have so far been slighting PB by repeatedly stating that force weapons ignore Feel No Pain and thus why they test before Feel No Pain rolls without actually responding to PB's over-arching point that the wording for the Black Mace is identical to the wording for force weapons. Sorry for the confusion.

I was beating a dead horse really.

[rle68]

I wasn't quoting you mate, I was referring to rle's point in my post. His posts have so far been slighting PB by repeatedly stating that force weapons ignore Feel No Pain and thus why they test before Feel No Pain rolls without actually responding to PB's over-arching point that the wording for the Black Mace is identical to the wording for force weapons. Sorry for the confusion.

ok let me make it a simple yes or no question.. do force weapons when active cause fnp to not fiunction?..
A.yes..

so what does that tell us..

A. force weapons ignore feel no pain

question 2.
what is a force weapon when not activated...

A. a glorified power weapon.. do power weapons ignore fnp as a general rule?...

A. no

question 3.
Does the black mace ignore fnp...

A. no it doesnt

simply put the black mace doesnt qualify for a roll before the fnp roll .. as i have said and others before repeatedly.. once a wound is taken and the save failed fnp roll is needed to see if there is even an unsaved wound to test for.. since the black mace can not be used to discard fnp testing for it before fnp gives it an ability it doesnt posses

i honestly dgaff if you test before it or after it.. where im making an objection is some idiot out there is next going to say if you fail the toughness test you dont get your fnp roll.. thats my objection

and you know they will say that.. someone will

and no the black maces wording is not identical to a force weapon not even close

[chicop76]

ok let me make it a simple yes or no question.. do force weapons when active cause fnp to not fiunction?..
A.yes..

so what does that tell us..

A. force weapons ignore feel no pain

question 2.
what is a force weapon when not activated...

A. a glorified power weapon.. do power weapons ignore fnp as a general rule?...

A. no

question 3.
Does the black mace ignore fnp...

A. no it doesnt

simply put the black mace doesnt qualify for a roll before the fnp roll .. as i have said and others before repeatedly.. once a wound is taken and the save failed fnp roll is needed to see if there is even an unsaved wound to test for.. since the black mace can not be used to discard fnp testing for it before fnp gives it an ability it doesnt posses

i honestly dgaff if you test before it or after it.. where im making an objection is some idiot out there is next going to say if you fail the toughness test you dont get your fnp roll.. thats my objection

and you know they will say that.. someone will

and no the black maces wording is not identical to a force weapon not even close


You missing the point. Everyone is agreeing that an activated Force Weapon causes instant death and negates FNP.

The point is Force Weapons's and the Black Mace both say immediately. Also the Force Weapon has been FAQ'ed which gives us an order of operations. It doesn't matter that the example is a Force Weapon. You can delete Force Weapon and add any effect you want. The Key part is the immediately wording in the operation.

1. Model A lost a wound.
2. "Immediate effect takes place" in this case Black Mace toughness test.
3. Tougness test failed model dies, or if passed continue to step 4.
4. Feel no Pain kicks in
5. Unsaved wound is ignored and turns in to a saved wound.

By what you saying how order of operations go and using a force weapon example we get this.

1. Unsaved wound by force weapon
2. Fnp kicks in
3. Fnp causes unsaved wound to be saved

That is what you saying. That Feel no Pain if it happens before immediately and the unsaved wound never happens. Than passing your feel no pain rolls would negate force weapon hits.

Than you make an untrue statement that force weapons cause instant death, false. If you have an unsaved wound om a force weapon you make a leadership test and spend a wrap charge point. When passed it causes instant death. Which means this order of operation.

1. Unsaved wound
2. Test for force weapon, if passed model dies, if failed carry on
3. Feel no Pain
4. Feel no Pain is passed you negate the wound done to you by the force weapon, if failed you take a wound and not die to instant death.

The Black Mace is worded the same. Which we can argue the operation happens the same as a Force Weapon which the FAQ shows us.

If again you want FNP to negate the Black Mace that's fine, but with that same reasoning it can negate Force Weapons as well. The only reason you ca't argue it can is due to the Force Weapon FAQ. The wording is soooooo similar that guess what. The Black Mace operation would work the same way.

[rle68]

You missing the point. Everyone is agreeing that an activated Force Weapon causes instant death and negates FNP.

The point is Force Weapons's and the Black Mace both say immediately. Also the Force Weapon has been FAQ'ed which gives us an order of operations. It doesn't matter that the example is a Force Weapon. You can delete Force Weapon and add any effect you want. The Key part is the immediately wording in the operation.

1. Model A lost a wound.
2. "Immediate effect takes place" in this case Black Mace toughness test.
3. Tougness test failed model dies, or if passed continue to step 4.
4. Feel no Pain kicks in
5. Unsaved wound is ignored and turns in to a saved wound.

By what you saying how order of operations go and using a force weapon example we get this.

1. Unsaved wound by force weapon
2. Fnp kicks in
3. Fnp causes unsaved wound to be saved

That is what you saying. That Feel no Pain if it happens before immediately and the unsaved wound never happens. Than passing your feel no pain rolls would negate force weapon hits.

Than you make an untrue statement that force weapons cause instant death, false. If you have an unsaved wound om a force weapon you make a leadership test and spend a wrap charge point. When passed it causes instant death. Which means this order of operation.

1. Unsaved wound
2. Test for force weapon, if passed model dies, if failed carry on
3. Feel no Pain
4. Feel no Pain is passed you negate the wound done to you by the force weapon, if failed you take a wound and not die to instant death.

The Black Mace is worded the same. Which we can argue the operation happens the same as a Force Weapon which the FAQ shows us.

If again you want FNP to negate the Black Mace that's fine, but with that same reasoning it can negate Force Weapons as well. The only reason you ca't argue it can is due to the Force Weapon FAQ. The wording is soooooo similar that guess what. The Black Mace operation would work the same way.

no that is not what im saying.. And no not everyone says fw ignore fnp..PB was especially wrong on that point

i am saying force weapons go before as faq'd as when activated they negate the fnp process

the black mace does not negate the fnp process at any level thus it can not go before the fnp roll

and the black mace is not worded the same.. the black mace doesnt cause instant death

"""3. Tougness test failed model dies""" there is the flaw in your argument.. the black mace does not invalidate the fnp roll.. if we went by your method then the BM would override the fnp roll which it doesnt and as i stated before even if it the test did happen before for resolution issues someone would then come back and say now you get no fnp roll which you do regrdless

how do you think it works based on the facts alone?

are you going to tell me that if the test is failed i dont get a fnp roll? or are you going to go by normal order of operations and say that when you have a unsaved wound you roll EACH time for fnp...and as the BM doesnt override that it has to occur after becasue there MIGHT NOT EVEN BE AN UNSAVED WOUND TO TEST FOR

put it this way.. one way to look at the feel no pain rule is it is basically a 5+ save after the normal save.. sort of an ala bs6 re roll to hit..or you could read it this way as well that fnp is a re roll of a failed save at 5+

[mathhammer]

the key expression people are getting wrong is:

4. Feel no Pain kicks in
5. Unsaved wound is ignored and turns in to a saved wound.

5 should be

5. The Unsaved wound is ignored.

The wound never becomes saved it becomes ignored, or not reducing the number of remaining wounds, it doesn't become saved. The wound occurs and any effect from it must happen.

[rle68]

the key expression people are getting wrong is:

4. Feel no Pain kicks in
5. Unsaved wound is ignored and turns in to a saved wound.

5 should be

5. The Unsaved wound is ignored.

The wound never becomes saved it becomes ignored, or not reducing the number of remaining wounds, it doesn't become saved. The wound occurs and any effect from it must happen.

perhaps you should go read what fnp actually says

"""-treat it as having been saved""" no ignore not mentioned there 1 time

[Power Klawz]

Needs a FAQ, there's no definitive answer. In terms of game flow it makes more sense to FNP before rolling, since FNP retro-actively applies a save. In terms of design intent its muddy water, it seems like if the black mace taps you on an uncovered shoulder you might just explode. RAW are completely ambiguous, RAI varies depending on your perspective, do you prioritize game flow or fluff?

Despite the authoritative stance a lot of people are taking in this thread, there's no clear solution.

[Learn2Eel]

I was beating a dead horse really.

Point taken :)

[chicop76]

no that is not what im saying.. And no not everyone says fw ignore fnp..PB was especially wrong on that point

i am saying force weapons go before as faq'd as when activated they negate the fnp process

the black mace does not negate the fnp process at any level thus it can not go before the fnp roll

and the black mace is not worded the same.. the black mace doesnt cause instant death

"""3. Tougness test failed model dies""" there is the flaw in your argument.. the black mace does not invalidate the fnp roll.. if we went by your method then the BM would override the fnp roll which it doesnt and as i stated before even if it the test did happen before for resolution issues someone would then come back and say now you get no fnp roll which you do regrdless

how do you think it works based on the facts alone?

are you going to tell me that if the test is failed i dont get a fnp roll? or are you going to go by normal order of operations and say that when you have a unsaved wound you roll EACH time for fnp...and as the BM doesnt override that it has to occur after becasue there MIGHT NOT EVEN BE AN UNSAVED WOUND TO TEST FOR

put it this way.. one way to look at the feel no pain rule is it is basically a 5+ save after the normal save.. sort of an ala bs6 re roll to hit..or you could read it this way as well that fnp is a re roll of a failed save at 5+

I see what you saying. This is what I am looking at.

1. Unsaved wound
2. Black mace effect
3. Fnp
4. Unsaved becomes saved

It will have to same order of operation as the force weapon.

The issue now is the toughness test more than operation. If the test is passed feel no pain can't stop that. However I can see your point with the unsaved becoming saved. The problem is when the saved part kicks in it's after the toughness test kicks in.

The toughness test removes models from the board. The differance is that it can in a way remove models with eternal warrior. I still don't see how fnp can negate a toughness test due to addingin the unsaved wound factor.

Let me put it this way. If the mace just caused a toughness test with out having to wound FNP would do nothing to stop it. If the model fails the toughness test Feel no Pain can't do anything to stop it.

Now we throw in the fact it has to wound, similiar to a force weapon. If either test passes toughness test or instant death test FnP would be neagted or a non factor. The only differance is instant death negates and the toughness test can't be saved ve FNP.

The point you making is that since the toughness test does not negate the fnp you still get FNP.

1. Unsaved wound
2. Black Mace T test if failed or past go to 3
3. Fnp
4. Unsaved wound becomes saved
5. Since we had to wait till step 4 to resolve step 2 failed test. Since you no longer have an unsaved wound you have to discount #2 if failed.

The problem with that thought is once the toughness test iis failed how are you even rolling FNP if you are removed. The only way to not take the test is for you to FNP first to prevent the test from happening. Which is a different operation than that of a force weapon.

I like this thread, because if I fail a leadership test being hit with Grey Knight weapons I can use Feel no Pain to negate the effect. This now encourage be to get more biomancy rolls. Heck gotta love +4 feel no pain.

[rle68]

"""The problem with that thought is once the toughness test iis failed how are you even rolling FNP if you are removed."""

if the black mace said it ignores fnp we would have no topic but as it doesnt say it ignores fnp, the fnp roll has to by virtue of the effects of a failed toughness test go before.. if the fnp is passed very unlikely at 5+ there is no wound for the bm to test on

would you say the BM would go before a model if he had a re rollable saving throw? since he took an unsaved wound and now the black mace immediately must test would you claim it invalidates the re roll? fnp is in a way like that

[Caitsidhe]

would you say the BM would go before a model if he had a re rollable saving throw? since he took an unsaved wound and now the black mace immediately must test would you claim it invalidates the re roll? fnp is in a way like that

No, FNP is in no way like that. It is apples and oranges. FNP isn't a save at all. That has been clearly established. A reroll on the save is still the intiial save, period.

[chicop76]

"""The problem with that thought is once the toughness test iis failed how are you even rolling FNP if you are removed."""

if the black mace said it ignores fnp we would have no topic but as it doesnt say it ignores fnp, the fnp roll has to by virtue of the effects of a failed toughness test go before.. if the fnp is passed very unlikely at 5+ there is no wound for the bm to test on

would you say the BM would go before a model if he had a re rollable saving throw? since he took an unsaved wound and now the black mace immediately must test would you claim it invalidates the re roll? fnp is in a way like that

Honestly I don't use the black mace and it benefit me much more if it worked the way you say. It also means it will work vs Grey Knights as well.

The only issue I have is going to the force weapon example you are not ignoring FnP until you pass your test. You still have to cause an unsaved wound so you can make a leadership test which instant death negates FnP. With the BM it's the same wa, but you are making a toughness test, which removes models.

I mean what if you have eternal warrior with fnp getting hit by a force weapon. The test at that point is simply done to negate FnP from happening.

Like I said I see what you saying. I just don't understand how you will still make a FnP if you are removed before you even negate the unsaved wound.

This whole debate is simply what happens first toughness test or FnP turning unsaved into saved. Or do they occur at the same time. It's like what came first the chicken or the egg.

If fnp hapens first I'm happy with it, if BM goes first I will start taking Space Marine allies. Either way win, win for me.

[Tynskel]

No, FNP is in no way like that. It is apples and oranges. FNP isn't a save at all. That has been clearly established. A reroll on the save is still the intiial save, period.

Yeah, that doesn't matter, but because the FNP treats it as a saved wound, the black mace is rolled *after* FNP. It is still immediate, just immediately after all attempts to save the wound have been made.

[Caitsidhe]

Yeah, that doesn't matter, but because the FNP treats it as a saved wound, the black mace is rolled *after* FNP. It is still immediate, just immediately after all attempts to save the wound have been made.

Depends entirely on how they rule it. I think they will have to do so, clearly.

[chicop76]

Yeah, that doesn't matter, but because the FNP treats it as a saved wound, the black mace is rolled *after* FNP. It is still immediate, just immediately after all attempts to save the wound have been made.

The same way you roll force weapons after FNP.

[rle68]

no no no.. i know where your at and i think you have a grasp where im at

when i say force weapons ignore fnp i am of course talking after activation...for a force weapon you have to roll for it before fnp as if it goes off the fw invalidates fnp.. thats why i say fw ignore fnp when activated

a black mace has no bearing on fnp and as such SHOULD play no part in altering fnp.. gw will be final arbiter of this issue

and yes fnp is alot like a re roll-able save..you fail a save, 5+ to negate w/ re roll.. for example substitute fnp for re roll idc its close to the same thing

[Tynskel]

The same way you roll force weapons after FNP.

Force Weapons cause Instant Death, which Ignores FNP.
Toughness Test to remove model does *NOT* ignore FNP. Hence, you get your FNP save.

[Allen Broussard]

clearly, if a model is removed from the board you ignore fnp

[Tynskel]

clearly, if a model is removed from the board you ignore fnp

No. The rule says when you have an unsaved wound. The FNP rule prevents the unsaved wound. You always get your FNP unless you cause instant death.

[rle68]

clearly, if a model is removed from the board you ignore fnp

and that is exactly why fnp goes before the black mace

[Caitsidhe]

No. The rule says when you have an unsaved wound. The FNP rule prevents the unsaved wound. You always get your FNP unless you cause instant death.

I disagree. FNP deals only with Wounds. The Black Mace's triggered effect (which the requirements to trigger it have been met... MUST have since they are the same as those for FNP) isn't a wound. It is a remove from play effect. If you are no longer in play there is no FNP roll to be made.

[Caitsidhe]

and that is exactly why fnp goes before the black mace

No. This is why you WANT it to go before the black mace.

[Allen Broussard]

I understand what you guys are saying, im just fairly certain its not right.

FNP is not a save, by definition. Therefore i feel the test must be taken "IMMEDIATELY" after it fails its save and before FNP takes place.

I do aggree however that only one test is taken no matter how many wounds take place since they are all resolved instantaneously.

If he rolls a 6 and fails the save, poof, he is removed before he makes his FNP check.

The closest comparison we have is the force weapons effect, in which the ONLY difference between the two is that the librarian himself has to do his psychic test or the model recieving the wound has to do the toughness test.

They are both tests taken immediately after the failed save and before FNP checks.

[chicop76]

No. The rule says when you have an unsaved wound. The FNP rule prevents the unsaved wound. You always get your FNP unless you cause instant death.

You getiing fnp on the unsaved wound and not the toughness test. You can't get FNP on a toughness test.

[Tynskel]

You getiing fnp on the unsaved wound and not the toughness test. You can't get FNP on a toughness test.

No, the FNP can be taken against the unsaved wound. Once the wound becomes saved, the Toughness test cannot happen.

[Tynskel]

I understand what you guys are saying, im just fairly certain its not right.

FNP is not a save, by definition. Therefore i feel the test must be taken "IMMEDIATELY" after it fails its save and before FNP takes place.

I do aggree however that only one test is taken no matter how many wounds take place since they are all resolved instantaneously.

If he rolls a 6 and fails the save, poof, he is removed before he makes his FNP check.

The closest comparison we have is the force weapons effect, in which the ONLY difference between the two is that the librarian himself has to do his psychic test or the model recieving the wound has to do the toughness test.

They are both tests taken immediately after the failed save and before FNP checks.

It is not a 'save' however FNP changes wounds that were unsaved to saved. That means that if you were to take the toughness test, then pass FNP, you would have negated the requirements for the Toughness Test.

The toughness test is *NOT* Instant Death. FNP cannot be ignored.

[Caitsidhe]

It is not a 'save' however FNP changes wounds that were unsaved to saved. That means that if you were to take the toughness test, then pass FNP, you would have negated the requirements for the Toughness Test.

The toughness test is *NOT* Instant Death. FNP cannot be ignored.

Even if we were to read things this way, the FNP roll and the Toughness test are essentially simultaneous (I don't think they are because of the the world "immediate" but we will play Devil's Advocate). When two events are simultaneous the player whose turn it is gets to CHOOSE which order the things take place in. Thus, FNP would only only come first on the turns where it is the FNP player's turn.

I somehow doubt they are going to convolute things thus. I expect this will eventually be done via Faq and clarified one way or the other. Until that happens the RAW applies and since the Black Mace has an IMMEDIATELY in its description while FNP does not, it will take priority and has in every single event in my area (not my ruling but that of others). All said and done, it rarely comes up anyway.

[chicop76]

You getiing fnp on the unsaved wound and not the toughness test. You can't get FNP on a toughness test.


No, the FNP can be taken against the unsaved wound. Once the wound becomes saved, the Toughness test cannot happen.

You can't get fnp on a characteristic test. You can't get FNP on an effect that causes instant death.

You can get feel no pain on an unsaved wound, which turns a saved wound into an unsaved wound.

Instant death negates the fnp which means you can't make an unsaved effect into a saved effect.

When we bring in a characteristic test portion either A, B, or C happens.

A. Characteristic test is failed model is removed

B. Feel no pain happens first. Which if you pass FNP it prevents BM effect and stops the toughness test.

C. 1. You fail toughness test.
2. Model is in limbo
3. FNP is rolled
4. Model is out of limbo and toughness test is negated due to feel no pain. You are allowed FNP due to the fact a characteristic test does not negate FNP which allows you to go back a time and negate the effect before the model is removed.

I am for solution A. Which I think most people fall here. Than you have solution B is where some others fall in. Than you have solution C. The only reason solution C exist if you treat order of operation like a force weapon's, but you think you can still ignore the unsaved wound after you rolled for the toughness test.

Or the toughness test happens after FNP which is B.

If the fact it didn't have to wound and was just a toughness test fnp wouldn't even be a factor.

[rle68]

I disagree. FNP deals only with Wounds. The Black Mace's triggered effect (which the requirements to trigger it have been met... MUST have since they are the same as those for FNP) isn't a wound. It is a remove from play effect. If you are no longer in play there is no FNP roll to be made.

suggest you go read fnp and when you look it at see what ignores fnp when you find out that the black mace doesnt invalidate fnp come back and talk to us

and since you claim its how i want it, when i dgaff as i dont have anything with fnp and 2 wounds

what part of the black mace invalidates " roll a d6 each time an unsaved wound is suffered."

[Tynskel]

You can't get fnp on a characteristic test. You can't get FNP on an effect that causes instant death.

You can get feel no pain on an unsaved wound, which turns a saved wound into an unsaved wound.

Instant death negates the fnp which means you can't make an unsaved effect into a saved effect.

When we bring in a characteristic test portion either A, B, or C happens.

A. Characteristic test is failed model is removed

B. Feel no pain happens first. Which if you pass FNP it prevents BM effect and stops the toughness test.

C. 1. You fail toughness test.
2. Model is in limbo
3. FNP is rolled
4. Model is out of limbo and toughness test is negated due to feel no pain. You are allowed FNP due to the fact a characteristic test does not negate FNP which allows you to go back a time and negate the effect before the model is removed.

I am for solution A. Which I think most people fall here. Than you have solution B is where some others fall in. Than you have solution C. The only reason solution C exist if you treat order of operation like a force weapon's, but you think you can still ignore the unsaved wound after you rolled for the toughness test.

Or the toughness test happens after FNP which is B.

If the fact it didn't have to wound and was just a toughness test fnp wouldn't even be a factor.

No. FNP negates unsaved wounds. If you have no unsaved wounds, you get no Toughness test. FNP gives an opportunity to save an unsaved wounds, always, unless you are inflicting Instant Death.

[chicop76]

No. FNP negates unsaved wounds. If you have no unsaved wounds, you get no Toughness test. FNP gives an opportunity to save an unsaved wounds, always, unless you are inflicting Instant Death.

No on A,B, and ,C. So that's the second time you are disagreeing with yourself since it seems you would fall into B.

All I hear is no from you. Please explain how it works and in what order than. Unless Fnp goes first it's the only way it can negate the unsaved wounds.

I'll quote myself again.


You getiing fnp on the unsaved wound and not the toughness test. You can't get FNP on a toughness test.


No, the FNP can be taken against the unsaved wound. Once the wound becomes saved, the Toughness test cannot happen.

[SeattleDV8]

Well, this is another poorly timed rule from GW.
Yes, you can't get FnP on a toughness test, by the same token you can't take a toughness test on a unsaved wound that has been ignored.
There is nothing that triggers the test.
Once you pass the FnP there is no longer an 'unsaved wound'.
Granted it is worded badly, yes both effects are triggered by the same thing i.e. an 'unsaved wound', but the FnP takes presidence because it can remove the 'unsaved wound'.
No wound=no toughness test.
Passing Fnp=no wound
ergo Passing FnP=no toughness test

That aside do we really need to boost a Deamon Prince?

[dreadnoughtguy]

You guys do know that it also says in the black mace that after the test is failed the modle is removed and that no saves of any kind may be taken right?

[rle68]

You guys do know that it also says in the black mace that after the test is failed the modle is removed and that no saves of any kind may be taken right?

if a toughness test is failed.. then you have already rolled your saving throw.. there would be no save to roll

[SeattleDV8]

As I said, GW timing fail, the FnP is rolled before anything else.
In order for the rules to work it has to be rolled first.
It's not stated, but it is clearly how it works.

You roll the FnP then if it fails then you roll the toughness test.
Other wise your model could be removed without an 'unsaved wound'.
Unless you are 'that guy' do you really want to remove a model that doesn't meet the trigger?
Get over it, the Black Mace is strong enough with out the cheese ball rules loop hole.

Yes , it is worded poorly, it's not alone.
Stop trying to game the system.

[rle68]

+1 for you :)

[Magpie]

As I said, GW timing fail, the FnP is rolled before anything else.
In order for the rules to work it has to be rolled first.
It's not stated, but it is clearly how it works.

You roll the FnP then if it fails then you roll the toughness test.
Other wise your model could be removed without an 'unsaved wound'.
Unless you are 'that guy' do you really want to remove a model that doesn't meet the trigger?
Get over it, the Black Mace is strong enough with out the cheese ball rules loop hole.

Yes , it is worded poorly, it's not alone.
Stop trying to game the system.

There is no fail. The FNP is not a save, doesn't matter whether you roll it or not.

[chicop76]

As I said, GW timing fail, the FnP is rolled before anything else.
In order for the rules to work it has to be rolled first.
It's not stated, but it is clearly how it works.

You roll the FnP then if it fails then you roll the toughness test.
Other wise your model could be removed without an 'unsaved wound'.
Unless you are 'that guy' do you really want to remove a model that doesn't meet the trigger?
Get over it, the Black Mace is strong enough with out the cheese ball rules loop hole.

Yes , it is worded poorly, it's not alone.
Stop trying to game the system.

That's not what's being argued. What's being argued is that a force weapon has the same wording and goes before FNP. It's safe to say so does Black Mace. If Black Mace goes before FNP than the toughness test will kill the model before FNP kicks in.

No one is trying to game the system. I can say you are trying to game the system with your point of view.

I rather it not work that way since I can argue the same with leadership test and feel no pain with daemons and greyknights. With lower leadership it's easier for greyknights to kill of my multiwound models on a failed leadership test. Feel no pain would make a huge differance since it's an entire army that can sort of black mace and also force weapon.

So it's benefitical if I agree with you, but it makes more sense to me I would work like a force weapon in te same order of operations. Why would the blace mace have a differant order of operation with the same wording.

It's like being able to hit and run before combat instead of after combat.

[Tynskel]

That's not what's being argued. What's being argued is that a force weapon has the same wording and goes before FNP. It's safe to say so does Black Mace. If Black Mace goes before FNP than the toughness test will kill the model before FNP kicks in.

No one is trying to game the system. I can say you are trying to game the system with your point of view.

I rather it not work that way since I can argue the same with leadership test and feel no pain with daemons and greyknights. With lower leadership it's easier for greyknights to kill of my multiwound models on a failed leadership test. Feel no pain would make a huge differance since it's an entire army that can sort of black mace and also force weapon.

So it's benefitical if I agree with you, but it makes more sense to me I would work like a force weapon in te same order of operations. Why would the blace mace have a differant order of operation with the same wording.

It's like being able to hit and run before combat instead of after combat.

No, the wording isn't the same: Force Weapons have Instant Death, a rule that explicitly overrides FNP.

[Tynskel]

There is no fail. The FNP is not a save, doesn't matter whether you roll it or not.

That's not entirely correct. The FNP explicitly states it removes the 'unsaved wound'. ie, it doesn't exist anymore. It *must* occur before black mace roll, because it has the opportunity to prevent the conditional that causes the Black Mace roll.

[chicop76]

No, the wording isn't the same: Force Weapons have Instant Death, a rule that explicitly overrides FNP.

It's the imediate part. Which brings us back to order of operations and why we are arguing BM goes before fnp. The instant death has nothing to do with order of operations.

[SeattleDV8]

Then Force Weapons should not be used as an example, they work because they cause Instant Death, not because of the order in which they go.

[Tynskel]

exactly.

[chicop76]

Pg. 69 CSM codex : "... If a model suffers an unsaved wound it must immediately take a Toughness test."

Pg. BRB 37 "..inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test."

Pg. 5 FAQ

"Q: In assault, what comes first - Feel no Pain rolls or the roll to activate a Force weapon?"

This is the important part. Due to similar wording the question can read :

FAQ

"Q: In assault, what comes first - Feel no Pain rolls or the roll for the Toughness test for the Black Mace?"

" A: The roll to activate a Force Weapon is made before determining whether or not the victim is permited a Feel no Pain roll"

Or it can read like this

" A: The roll for the Toughness test of a Blace Mace is made before determining whether or not the victim is permited a Feel no Pain roll"

It's the similiar wording and the Feel no Pain FaQ that would have me believe they would have the same order of operation.

For the ones who want the Feel no Pain to activate before the Black Mace you have nothing to validate what you are saying. The only thing I hear is that a Force Weapon ignores Feel no Pain, due to instant death which is wrong.

Force Weapons only cause instant death if you are able to activate the weapon with a psychic test. If you fail the psychic test or do not have a warp charge to activate it than you get Feel no Pain vs the Force Weapon.

If the Force Weapon operation was like how you want the Black Mace operation to go than this will happen.

1. Unsaved wound by a Force Weapon
2. Feel no Pain roll makes an unsaved wound into a saved wound
3. Force Weapon is negated due to no unsaved wounds

That is why order of operations is soo important since the Force Weapon needs to go first or it would be negated by the Feel no Pain effect.

Getting hit by a Force Weapon do not negate Feel no Painonly a sussesful activation negates feel no pain and it happens after the feel no pain roll.

The reason why the force weapon is mentioned is that the term immediately is used for both weapons. Which gives you the right to think that both weapons have the same order of operations.


The only reason I hear from 2/3 (rle68 atleast saying something differant) of the pro feel no pain people is that Force Weapons negate Fnp( which is not true, only the activation part does). The fact that a force weapon negate feel no pain wen activated is a stupid argument to make. Me and a few others are arguing operation, while you are arguing that Force Weapons ignore feel no pain. Heck removing a model from the board ignores feel no pain.

This is what happens with a Force Weapon

1. Unsaved wound
2. Succesfully activate Force Weapon causes instant death

Or

1. Unsaved wound
2. Failed activation
3. Feel no pain
4. Unsaved can become saved

Or in the case of eternal warrior

1. Unsaved wound
2. Force weapon activated
3. Feel no Pain is negated
4. Model takes a wound

The more I think about it. A characteristic test is more powerful than a force weapon test due to eternal warrior stops one, but not the other. You can be toughness 10 with 1000 wounds, and eternal warrior and still be removed from the board. Only like a handful of models can survive that. Yet you telling me that a Force effect negates Feel no Pain and that's why it go first and Black Mace goes last.

Maybe the 2/3 of you do not understand order of operations or thata tougness test can negate feel no pain.

Yes the unsaved wound can be save and negate the toughness test. I agree that it can. Also an unsaved wound from a force weapon can become saved and negate the force weapon activation.

So what are you saying.

A. That Force Weapon activaton happens before FnP, and Fnp happens before BM.
I doubt 2/3 of you think that since you keep saying force weapons negate fnp which they do not, only when they activated they do.

B. The effects occur at the same time. I can slightly buy this. The fact that a failed toughness test means you're gone vs feel no pain negation. (Rle69 seems to have this thought) it's plauseable.

C. That feel no pain occurs first. Since force weapons negate feel no pain you do not get a feel no pain roll, but since BM doesn't negate FnP it can be negated.

Option C is what I hear from 2/3. I may be wrong. If you think this you are ignoring FAQ and going by opinion. You are assuming that it works this way. If you think this way please elaborate why it is this way. This way doesn't make sense at all.

All I can say explain why a force weapon action happens before FNP, while the BM happens afterwards when they both occur immediately after the unsaved wound. Saying Force weapons ignore FNP is a nonargument. One they have to activate like a BM have to issue out a toughness test.

[chicop76]

Then Force Weapons should not be used as an example, they work because they cause Instant Death, not because of the order in which they go.

Force Weapon activation causes instant death and not the Force Weapon itself

I see. You do not know how a Force Weapon works. Explains why you think the way you do.

Pg. 37 under Force

" If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force Weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test(see page 67). If the test is failed, or the bearer has no Warp Charge points to spend, then there is no additional effect

If the test is passed, all unsaved Wounds inflicted by the Force weapon that turn have the Instant Death special rule (see page 38) Deny the Witch rolls cannont be taken against Force weapons..."

That's quoted strait from the main book. You need to activate a force weapon to cause instant death. With what you saying for Blace Mace I can say the same for a Force Weapon. If I pass FNP than you wouldn't be able to activate the force weapon.

To be able to cause instant death you have to have a warp charge point and pass a psychic test.

Page 5 of the FaQ is there since you could negate Force Weapons due to what you sayin about the Black Mace. The only reason the Force Weapon is not hampered by Feel no Pain is the fact it goes before Feel no Pain. I can qoute again, but you can just read the above post.

At this point if you disagree with something abit of reading will help. Fact not opinion.

Now does BM order of operations go at the same time as a Force Weapon to my best guess I say yes. There is nothing definate and I am going by the wording immedately which is used for both weapons. It's safe to say they both work the same way. I will find it odd if they say that FNP would go before the Mace.

Tynskel and Seatle you both come off as you are voicing opinion and not even reading the post or your book. Saying Force Weapons negate feel no pain and saying order of operations does not matter shows how much you really know on the subject.

[rle68]

as i said also :)

[rle68]

Force Weapon activation causes instant death and not the Force Weapon itself

I see. You do not know how a Force Weapon works. Explains why you think the way you do.

Pg. 37 under Force

" If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force Weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test(see page 67). If the test is failed, or the bearer has no Warp Charge points to spend, then there is no additional effect

If the test is passed, all unsaved Wounds inflicted by the Force weapon that turn have the Instant Death special rule (see page 38) Deny the Witch rolls cannont be taken against Force weapons..."

That's quoted strait from the main book. You need to activate a force weapon to cause instant death. With what you saying for Blace Mace I can say the same for a Force Weapon. If I pass FNP than you wouldn't be able to activate the force weapon.

To be able to cause instant death you have to have a warp charge point and pass a psychic test.

Page 5 of the FaQ is there since you could negate Force Weapons due to what you sayin about the Black Mace. The only reason the Force Weapon is not hampered by Feel no Pain is the fact it goes before Feel no Pain. I can qoute again, but you can just read the above post.

At this point if you disagree with something abit of reading will help. Fact not opinion.

Now does BM order of operations go at the same time as a Force Weapon to my best guess I say yes. There is nothing definate and I am going by the wording immedately which is used for both weapons. It's safe to say they both work the same way. I will find it odd if they say that FNP would go before the Mace.

Tynskel and Seatle you both come off as you are voicing opinion and not even reading the post or your book. Saying Force Weapons negate feel no pain and saying order of operations does not matter shows how much you really know on the subject.

we have all said once activated a force weapon would negate fnp .. what about that dont you understand? and as such it has to go first because its success would invalidate fnp the black mace has no such distinction

god this horse has been made into glue brought back to life and sent back to slaughter for a 5th time

[rle68]

Pg. 69 CSM codex : "... If a model suffers an unsaved wound it must immediately take a Toughness test."

Pg. BRB 37 "..inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test."

Pg. 5 FAQ

"Q: In assault, what comes first - Feel no Pain rolls or the roll to activate a Force weapon?"

This is the important part. Due to similar wording the question can read :

FAQ

"Q: In assault, what comes first - Feel no Pain rolls or the roll for the Toughness test for the Black Mace?"

" A: The roll to activate a Force Weapon is made before determining whether or not the victim is permited a Feel no Pain roll"

Or it can read like this

" A: The roll for the Toughness test of a Blace Mace is made before determining whether or not the victim is permited a Feel no Pain roll"

It's the similiar wording and the Feel no Pain FaQ that would have me believe they would have the same order of operation.

For the ones who want the Feel no Pain to activate before the Black Mace you have nothing to validate what you are saying. The only thing I hear is that a Force Weapon ignores Feel no Pain, due to instant death which is wrong.

Force Weapons only cause instant death if you are able to activate the weapon with a psychic test. If you fail the psychic test or do not have a warp charge to activate it than you get Feel no Pain vs the Force Weapon.

If the Force Weapon operation was like how you want the Black Mace operation to go than this will happen.

1. Unsaved wound by a Force Weapon
2. Feel no Pain roll makes an unsaved wound into a saved wound
3. Force Weapon is negated due to no unsaved wounds

That is why order of operations is soo important since the Force Weapon needs to go first or it would be negated by the Feel no Pain effect.

Getting hit by a Force Weapon do not negate Feel no Painonly a sussesful activation negates feel no pain and it happens after the feel no pain roll.

The reason why the force weapon is mentioned is that the term immediately is used for both weapons. Which gives you the right to think that both weapons have the same order of operations.


The only reason I hear from 2/3 (rle68 atleast saying something differant) of the pro feel no pain people is that Force Weapons negate Fnp( which is not true, only the activation part does). The fact that a force weapon negate feel no pain wen activated is a stupid argument to make. Me and a few others are arguing operation, while you are arguing that Force Weapons ignore feel no pain. Heck removing a model from the board ignores feel no pain.

This is what happens with a Force Weapon

1. Unsaved wound
2. Succesfully activate Force Weapon causes instant death

Or

1. Unsaved wound
2. Failed activation
3. Feel no pain
4. Unsaved can become saved

Or in the case of eternal warrior

1. Unsaved wound
2. Force weapon activated
3. Feel no Pain is negated
4. Model takes a wound

The more I think about it. A characteristic test is more powerful than a force weapon test due to eternal warrior stops one, but not the other. You can be toughness 10 with 1000 wounds, and eternal warrior and still be removed from the board. Only like a handful of models can survive that. Yet you telling me that a Force effect negates Feel no Pain and that's why it go first and Black Mace goes last.

Maybe the 2/3 of you do not understand order of operations or thata tougness test can negate feel no pain.

Yes the unsaved wound can be save and negate the toughness test. I agree that it can. Also an unsaved wound from a force weapon can become saved and negate the force weapon activation.

So what are you saying.

A. That Force Weapon activaton happens before FnP, and Fnp happens before BM.
I doubt 2/3 of you think that since you keep saying force weapons negate fnp which they do not, only when they activated they do.

B. The effects occur at the same time. I can slightly buy this. The fact that a failed toughness test means you're gone vs feel no pain negation. (Rle69 seems to have this thought) it's plauseable.

C. That feel no pain occurs first. Since force weapons negate feel no pain you do not get a feel no pain roll, but since BM doesn't negate FnP it can be negated.

Option C is what I hear from 2/3. I may be wrong. If you think this you are ignoring FAQ and going by opinion. You are assuming that it works this way. If you think this way please elaborate why it is this way. This way doesn't make sense at all.

All I can say explain why a force weapon action happens before FNP, while the BM happens afterwards when they both occur immediately after the unsaved wound. Saying Force weapons ignore FNP is a nonargument. One they have to activate like a BM have to issue out a toughness test.

how convenient of you to leave out the fnp rule as well... bzzzz thanks for playing

All I can say explain why a force weapon action happens before FNP, while the BM happens afterwards when they both occur immediately after the unsaved wound.
and you LEFT out how fnp says you rOLL EACH TIME you have and unsaved wound my EACH TIME OVERRIDES YOUR IMMEDIATELY

we have explained it over and over.. you can not grasp that we have done so numerous times

ill explain one more time so even you can grasp it

a force weapon would roll its activation first BECAUSE once its activated its effects cancel any fnp roll

the black mace makes no mention of any situation that would cancel a fnp roll there fore now and forever it goes after the fnp roll has been attempted

end of story

[chicop76]

I can quote Feel no Pain, but really do not see the need to. I have stated it makes an unsaved wound into a saved wound multiple times. I have stated if Feel no Pain happens first in order of operations it will negate BM, which it can also negate Force effect if it was to go before a Force weapon activation.

I have mentioned it can negate BM multiple of times. You just choose to ignore and nick pick the other half.

What I am focus on is order of operation which most of you choose to ignore.

If Feel no Pain goes first than yes it negates Black Mace. If Black Mace goes first than it does not. That's what I been saying.

I can quote myself the multiple times I said Feel no Pain can negate Black Mace if you like. The reason why I don't mention Feel no Pain is the fact that part I do not see any disagreement. It's stupid because everyone agrees theat FnP can negate the Mace's effect. What we disagreeing on is order of operation which makes a huge differance.

We don't know what order the Black Mace goes in. All we know is the Force Weapon which have similar wording goes before Feel no Pain.

If Black Mace goes before Feel no Pain than the Black Mace will not be negated just like the Force Weapon. If the Force Weapon went after the Feel no Pain than it will be negated.

What I am hearing again is due to the activation of a Force Weapon is that it has to go first since instant death negates feel no pain. While Black Mace which effect removes the model from play can't negate Feel no Pain.

I don't see the reasoning in that. It's not end of story. It sounds like opinion and being bias.

The differance is I am saying it can happen two ways leaning towards one due to how a Force Weapon operates. While you are stuck on one way that is more benefitical to you. I don't even use the Black Mace and like I said before it benefit me more going the other way around.

You missing the point that Feel no Pain negates unsaved wounds. Which means that if become saved that a force weapon can't activate. The only way around it is for it to go first in operation.

Do I need to quote Seattle again. He said Force Weapons just flat out ignore Feel no Pain and order of operations does not matter. Which tells me two thingss

1. He doesn't realize that activation is required to ignore FnP.
2. Since order of operation does not matter it means that he is validating tha he doesn't realize it needs to be activated.


Ummm the FAQ says Force Weapon Activation happen after the unsaved wound, but before Feel no Pain kicks in to make it a Saved wound.

Let's put it this way. I think you don't really realize how little Instant Death really has to do with Negating Feel no Pain. It matters with models with Eternal Warrior, but other than that it's irrelivant.

Let's put it this way:

Grey Knight Paladin with Halbred vs Oqryn with Endurance ( Endurance gives a +5 Feel no Pain)
Step 1: Grey Knight Paladin with Halbred swings at an Oqryn first.
Step 2: Grey Knight Paladin hit Ogryn 2 times
Step 3: Grey Knight Paladin wounds Ogryn once.
Step 4: Grey Knight Paladin weapon is ap 3 and negates Ogryn save of +5
Step 5: Grey Knight Paladin now caused an unsaved wound, due to FaQ Force weapon acts first. The Paladin activates Force Weapon by spending a warp charge point and passes psychic test. Unsaved wounds by a force weapon now causes instant death.
Step 6: Instant death occurs and model dies. Feel no Pain is not rolled due to instant death happening before the Feel no Pain roll. Model dies to instant death before Feel no Pain is even rolled on.
Step 7: if the Ogryn had Eternal Warrior you wouldn't be able to role for Feel no Pain due to the instant death effect.


Now replace that with Black Mace. Black Mace if it goes first will remove the model before Feel no Pain is even rolled.

Let me ask you a question which you seem to ignore. Can you roll Feel on Pain on Jaws of the Warp Wolf, being turn into a squig, the grey knight libby psychic flame attack, and other powers that force toughness, initiative, strength, etc. test that removes models from the table? The answer is no! They do not cause wounds.

Now if the toughness test happens before feel no pan I would like to hear how you can still roll for feel no pain and go back in time and become saved to ignor the toughness test that removed you from the board. That's what I want to know.

If I get this strait you are saying that because a force weapon can cause instant death it goes before Feel no Pain which instant death can ignore, however if you have an effect that removes you from play feel no pain goes first due to removing from play do not negate feel no pain. Even though feel no pain can't be used on a characteristic test, unless it causes a wound which goes back to which happens first.

[rle68]

OK...so we have some common ground.. were cool :)

the reason why a force weapon take priority over the bm is simple.. when a fw is activated it CAUSES INSTANT DEATH.. thats a threshold for negating fnp.. the bm has no such distinction its effects do not invalidate fnp in anyway

the reasoning for the bm going second is that its base effects do nothing to negate fnp.. its affects ate centered on an additional test done outside of the normal combat operations sequences. thus before the resolution of the bm can be completed all avenues for wound saves have to be met prior to its test.. which any test on the wounded players models are done at the end of any phase.. leadership moral fearless etc...

it would also go after the final fnp roll as once the fnp roll is either successful .. then a happens and there is no unsaved roll which finishes off a combat resolution.. or B. there is an unsaved wound and then the toughness test goes inot effect with either a resolution for removal or not

your post is quite long and im functioning on 3 hours of sleep.. im not discounting your post im simply going to answer one question you raised

jotww would not allow a fnp roll as NO WOUND IS EVER CAUSED..FNP WORKS ONLY ON AN UNSAVED WOUND...

hope you see where im going

Thanks
R

""""however if you have an effect that removes you from play"""" DUE TO AN UNSAVED WOUND thats the key
the black mace caused an unsaved wound causing the need for fnp to be required before its resolution

jotww does not

Thx

[Magpie]

That's not entirely correct. The FNP explicitly states it removes the 'unsaved wound'. ie, it doesn't exist anymore. It *must* occur before black mace roll, because it has the opportunity to prevent the conditional that causes the Black Mace roll.

It says nothing of the sort there is no explicit "remove the unsaved wound"

It says explicitly "to avoid being wounded", "the wound is discounted" and "this is not a saving throw"

The only fly in the ointment is "treat it as having been saved" the semantic difference being you treat is as having been saved, it hasn't actually been saved tho'

[chicop76]

nope your order of operations is out of whack...take wound.check..fail save...check...requires T test.. on hold... fnp triggers.. check ..fnp successful.. no T test.. unsuccessful Toughness test initiated.. check.. thats proper order

i base this off the thought that all tests are done after all combat operations have been completed..leadership etc all done end of combat phase.. fnp is before


I feel like jumping in here because you've ignored everything that PB is saying. Force Weapons ignore Feel No Pain when they are activated. Before the rulebook FAQ, players didn't know which came first; the test to activate the Force Weapon and thus inflict instant death, or the Feel No Pain roll. The rulebook FAQ clarified that the test to activate the Force Weapon came first because the rulebook states "immediately", much like the Black Mace does. The reason Force Weapons come before Feel No Pain rolls is not because they inflict instant death after a successful test; it is because the test to activate them and thus inflict instant death is resolved immediately after suffering an unsaved wound.

On the argument in general, it seems pretty clear to me that the Cursed rule operates exactly the same as Force Weapons; both state "immediately" after an unsaved wound. The only difference is that we don't have a FAQ for the Black Mace because we already have one for Force Weapons setting the precedent. Personally, I hope they FAQ it the other way though.


no that is not what im saying.. And no not everyone says fw ignore fnp..PB was especially wrong on that point

i am saying force weapons go before as faq'd as when activated they negate the fnp process

the black mace does not negate the fnp process at any level thus it can not go before the fnp roll

and the black mace is not worded the same.. the black mace doesnt cause instant death

"""3. Tougness test failed model dies""" there is the flaw in your argument.. the black mace does not invalidate the fnp roll.. if we went by your method then the BM would override the fnp roll which it doesnt and as i stated before even if it the test did happen before for resolution issues someone would then come back and say now you get no fnp roll which you do regrdless

how do you think it works based on the facts alone?

are you going to tell me that if the test is failed i dont get a fnp roll? or are you going to go by normal order of operations and say that when you have a unsaved wound you roll EACH time for fnp...and as the BM doesnt override that it has to occur after becasue there MIGHT NOT EVEN BE AN UNSAVED WOUND TO TEST FOR

put it this way.. one way to look at the feel no pain rule is it is basically a 5+ save after the normal save.. sort of an ala bs6 re roll to hit..or you could read it this way as well that fnp is a re roll of a failed save at 5+


OK...so we have some common ground.. were cool :)

the reason why a force weapon take priority over the bm is simple.. when a fw is activated it CAUSES INSTANT DEATH.. thats a threshold for negating fnp.. the bm has no such distinction its effects do not invalidate fnp in anyway

the reasoning for the bm going second is that its base effects do nothing to negate fnp.. its affects ate centered on an additional test done outside of the normal combat operations sequences. thus before the resolution of the bm can be completed all avenues for wound saves have to be met prior to its test.. which any test on the wounded players models are done at the end of any phase.. leadership moral fearless etc...

it would also go after the final fnp roll as once the fnp roll is either successful .. then a happens and there is no unsaved roll which finishes off a combat resolution.. or B. there is an unsaved wound and then the toughness test goes inot effect with either a resolution for removal or not

your post is quite long and im functioning on 3 hours of sleep.. im not discounting your post im simply going to answer one question you raised

jotww would not allow a fnp roll as NO WOUND IS EVER CAUSED..FNP WORKS ONLY ON AN UNSAVED WOUND...

hope you see where im going

Thanks
R

""""however if you have an effect that removes you from play"""" DUE TO AN UNSAVED WOUND thats the key
the black mace caused an unsaved wound causing the need for fnp to be required before its resolution

jotww does not

Thx

K I went back and read everything. Like I said rle68 I can see where you going. The other two really do not have any point.

If I go back to your order of operation when you said put on hold that would make sense why you think the way you do. Let's do this differently. At this point we are going in circles.

My question is when do the effects happen. You have this issue.

Feel no Pain can change unsaved wounds into saved wounds. We all hopefully should understand that. It's been quoted like 5 times and said like 20x.

Let's simply ask this. When do you roll for your Toughness test. If wounding wasn't an issue. Can you roll feel no pain for a toughness test that removes from the game. The answer will be no.

Now let's add in the condition to trigger the toughness test which is an unsaved wound. Feel no Pain can negate thecondition. I think we all understand this by now.

This is where it gets tricky we are using the force weapon as an example of which order of operations we should follow. Even you agreed that the toughness test will be before the FnP. I quoted your order of operation which you said hold. This is where the arguments is coming in. Honestly The Force Weapon being activated and causing Instant Death can be seen as two ways.

A. Instant Death goes off before FnP and model dies.
B. Instant Death goes off and negates FnP model dies.

A and B are very differant thoughts. If you think A than it will vallidate the Black Mace going off killing the model before you can even roll feel no pain. If you think B than FnP is negated meaning that FnP can't negate the unsaved wound.

The argument at this point is whether the toughness test kills the model before it can roll FnP, or Fnp goes first, or the toughness test has to wait for Feel no Pain to go through it's effects which can negate the toughness test condition and make the mace invalid.

The condition in the middle makes no sense since GW went out of their way to FAQ the force weapon in a way that the Force Weapon has to go first so Feel no Pain does not negate the instant death effect. Further more if the instant death effect is soo important it has to go before the FNP effect so it does no be negated it says a lot.

I am not going to quote, but going to point out a few things

1. Black Mace you are taking the toughness test as soon as you suffer an unsaved wound which can remove you as a casualty
2. If strength, toughness or wounds are lowered to 0 you have to remove that model from play if it is a casualty
3. Wound pool which you technically remove one wound at a time or you can speed roll using the fast dice rule.
4. Pg. 16 covers types of savings throws
5. Pg 2 of FAQ covers FNP which states you should roll once for each unsaved wound.
6y. Fnp work against Perils of the warp due to it being an unsaved wound.

[rle68]

havent been to bed yet so im half asleep hope this part makes sense

""""1. Black Mace you are taking the toughness test as soon as you suffer an unsaved wound which can remove you as a casualty"""

the problem here is that fnp says you roll EACH time you take an unsaved wound, and if the fnp roll is successful there would be no wound for the black mace to function...yes this is circular ala force weapons, but in fw canon fw cause instant death the black mace does not...

the black mace and its abilities are not covered under what negate fnp.. if i was to take the toughness test before the fnp roll i would be giving the bm abilities it doesnt posses

[DarkLink]

It says nothing of the sort there is no explicit "remove the unsaved wound"

It says explicitly "to avoid being wounded", "the wound is discounted" and "this is not a saving throw"

The only fly in the ointment is "treat it as having been saved" the semantic difference being you treat is as having been saved, it hasn't actually been saved tho'

Wrong. You haven't saved, and saves are the normal means for ignoring wounds, but you still 'avoid being wounded'. This is an alternative means for ignoring wounds. I don't see how you could actually read the rule and possibly think that the model has still been wounded.

[chicop76]

Wrong. You haven't saved, and saves are the normal means for ignoring wounds, but you still 'avoid being wounded'. This is an alternative means for ignoring wounds. I don't see how you could actually read the rule and possibly think that the model has still been wounded.

Yeah. That is why I stop mentioning the Tallyman referance. Simply due to how you calculate who won combat. You don't count wounds that's been succesfully saved via FnP. Things make sense when it's not late at night lol.

@ rle ok. Let's put it this way. I don't like arguing in circles. Especially if I understand what points are made. I get mad at myself if I can't get my point across.

Why can't Black Mace operate before the FNP? I understand the instant death part. Like I said before with Force weapons is it the instant death part or the fact it goes before fnp.

If Black Mace goes after or at the same time as FnP it's negated due to the unsaved wound becomes saved.

My issue is if Black Mace goes first than the model is removed.

Again what is a more powerful effect instant deat or being removed from the board.

The only thing I can see that backs up your train of thought is the perils example. Perils you are not saving at all and just take a wound, however FnP can negate it. Tha being said it's like Black Mace, but the toughness test is what messes everything up.

Now I need to look at bone sword to see how it operates or the diresword. Do they cause instant death or removal I need to look.

What makes the tougness test plausably saveable is the fact you caused a wound. If it didn't cause a wound the toughness test would bypass feel no pain. If they didn't FAQ Force weapon the way they did I would be leaning on Fnp can be used to save vs tougjness test side. The reason I think this is if instant death alone was enough they wouldn't had not FaQ it all. They Faq it where order of operations turns out to be a major factor rather than the fact it causes instant death. In the same regard if the model is removed or instant killed before FnP kicks in is a huge differance.

The way Blace Mace is written it says wound. Which means to imply everytime you are wounded. It is not written like so many other effects where it says one or more wounds like force wapon.

In other words for every unsaved wound you have Black Mace Toughness test kicks off vs FnP which works every time you are wounded.

The big differance in the last part. To completely negate Black Mace you have to save against every wound. For example Daemon Prince has biomancy power the issues +3 attacks, black mace issues +6 attacks, and the MC have +6 attacks for base and charging which means it can deal out 15 attacks on the charge or 12 smash attacks to get rid of FNP in most cases anyway. Let's say the prince causes 8 wounds and at best you have 3 feel no pain saves. You still have 5 unsaved wounds which you have to make a toughness test. I guess I see your point when I do it this way. 8 toughness test would seem arkward to do like that.

On the bright side when the character is killed Feel no Pain can't stop the toughness test radius effect.

[Tynskel]

You technically have an unsaved wound when a wound has been administered, but we don't interrupt armor save throws?

the point is that you attempt every opportunity to save a wound that has not been saved. After all opportunities have been made, then you proceed with the back mace, because it is supposed to be immediately resolved (not at the end of the phase, etc.)

[chicop76]

You technically have an unsaved wound when a wound has been administered, but we don't interrupt armor save throws?

the point is that you attempt every opportunity to save a wound that has not been saved. After all opportunities have been made, then you proceed with the back mace, because it is supposed to be immediately resolved (not at the end of the phase, etc.)

Feel no Pain is not a save. For example if it was you couldn't Feel no Pain from Perils.

[rle68]

doesnt matter that fnp is not a save per se.... and i see your logic.. and im being 100% honest when i say i dont have a dog in this hunt

what matters here is the ability of fnp where as the black mace issues an effect once there is a result of an unsaved wound, fnp is an ability possessed by the model that can cancel out an unsaved wound.

i look at it this way.. in all the rules we have ever dealt with.. and the arguments of rai vs raw.. we have alwasy gone with if it doesnt say it then it doesnt do it...if the bm said it caused instant death there would be no fnp roll ever.. however the black mace doesnt say it causes instant death.. therefore by RAW fnp would be allowed in order of operations prior to resolving if the black mace function was allowed

[Caitsidhe]

At issue is the clarification that it is NOT a save. It cancels out a wound. The problem is that it doesn't cancel out the intial trigger. It can't. It would create a PARADOX. If FNP treated said Wound as saved, it would never have triggered in the first place. The foundation of your argument is that "treat as a saved wound" is the same as "saved wound" would mean that FNP would cancel the trigger effect that allows it to roll in the first place, hence no FNP roll. Do you see why that CANNOT happen. If we read things the way you WANT to read them FNP would cancel out the Black Mace and FNP.

Hence, we cannot read it your way. We must read it as canceling out the wound, i.e. TREAT it like the wound was saved but it still (per the way it is written) is NOT as saved wound. This allows trigger effects to go into motion.

[Patrick Boyle]

You technically have an unsaved wound when a wound has been administered, but we don't interrupt armor save throws?

the point is that you attempt every opportunity to save a wound that has not been saved. After all opportunities have been made, then you proceed with the back mace, because it is supposed to be immediately resolved (not at the end of the phase, etc.)

No, you don't. After your opponent successfully rolls to wound you have wounds. They don't become unsaved wounds until you fail your armor/invul/cover save.

As for whether you can FNP against the mace's effect...if we agree that the Toughness test happens before the FNP roll, it seems to me if you fail the test you're out. Yeah, you can FNP a wound, but the 'Removed as a casualty' isn't caused by the wound in this case, it's a direct result of failing the test. So if the test comes first, and you fail, you're removed from the board and aren't there anymore to roll FNP in the first place.

[chicop76]

After all this debate it really doesn't matter. You will smash multi_wound or FnP models anyway. Which leaves only 3 armies this becomes a real issue. Daemons, CSM, and nids. Anyway else will simply get smashed or suffer from strength 6 instant death anyway.

If you kill a character or Mc the Tougness test aura is not savable by feel no pain. The aura toughness test actually is the test you are gunning for anyway.

[dreadnoughtguy]

unfortunatly the BM will if the test is failed over rule FNP. Since the BM does not allow any saves of any kind you can not take FNP against unsaved armor/ invulnerable saves on that failed test. Once you take the wound, which happens as soon as you make a failed save, you imedatly take a toughness test. FNP only works on a unsaved wound from a failed armor/ ingulnerable save. Also BM has two over ride FNP parts involved, first it has the "no saves of any kind" and second it has "removed from play", both of which over ride the FNP rules.

[chicop76]

unfortunatly the BM will if the test is failed over rule FNP. Since the BM does not allow any saves of any kind you can not take FNP against unsaved armor/ invulnerable saves on that failed test. Once you take the wound, which happens as soon as you make a failed save, you imedatly take a toughness test. FNP only works on a unsaved wound from a failed armor/ ingulnerable save. Also BM has two over ride FNP parts involved, first it has the "no saves of any kind" and second it has "removed from play", both of which over ride the FNP rules.

The first part doesn't overrule FNP. Perils of the Warp doesn't allow for any saves of anykind, but you can still use Feel no Pain against that effect. If you are wounded than Feel no Pain can go into effect even if no saves are allowed.

[Tynskel]

No, you don't. After your opponent successfully rolls to wound you have wounds. They don't become unsaved wounds until you fail your armor/invul/cover save.

As for whether you can FNP against the mace's effect...if we agree that the Toughness test happens before the FNP roll, it seems to me if you fail the test you're out. Yeah, you can FNP a wound, but the 'Removed as a casualty' isn't caused by the wound in this case, it's a direct result of failing the test. So if the test comes first, and you fail, you're removed from the board and aren't there anymore to roll FNP in the first place.

No. The Black Mace does not ignore FNP. Nothing ignores FNP except for Instant Death.

[chicop76]

No. The Black Mace does not ignore FNP. Nothing ignores FNP except for Instant Death.

Charatristic Test ignore FnP. The only reason Black Mace is even debated right now is due to it having to wound. Even so if you are within 3" of the mace when it kills a character your Fnp won't work on that toughness test and if you fail even with feel no pain you are removed.

[Caitsidhe]

Charatristic Test ignore FnP. The only reason Black Mace is even debated right now is due to it having to wound. Even so if you are within 3" of the mace when it kills a character your Fnp won't work on that toughness test and if you fail even with feel no pain you are removed.

Actually FNP WOULD work on that Test because it results in a Wound if they fail it. The only one in contention is the direct hit on a multi-wound model and the test THAT model takes.

[chicop76]

Actually FNP WOULD work on that Test because it results in a Wound if they fail it. The only one in contention is the direct hit on a multi-wound model and the test THAT model takes.

My bad. Forgot the aura didn't remove from play as well. See I got Cait agree that you can FnP on a toughness check.

[Magpie]

Wrong. You haven't saved, and saves are the normal means for ignoring wounds, but you still 'avoid being wounded'. This is an alternative means for ignoring wounds. I don't see how you could actually read the rule and possibly think that the model has still been wounded.

"this is not a saving throw"

[Tynskel]

"this is not a saving throw"

That doesn't matter. The rest of the rule states that the 'unsaved wound' doesn't exist anymore.

[Tynskel]

Charatristic Test ignore FnP. The only reason Black Mace is even debated right now is due to it having to wound. Even so if you are within 3" of the mace when it kills a character your Fnp won't work on that toughness test and if you fail even with feel no pain you are removed.

Irrelevant.
The characteristic test is contingent on the unsaved wound. The FNP roll removes unsaved wounds.

[SeattleDV8]

The reason for the Force Weapon FAQ is to make sure that the FnP does not stop a wound that would negate the Instant Death ability.
It allows the units to use their special rules.
The Black Mace is the exact opposite.
It's rules if used first would negate the legal use of FnP.

Although it seems backwards the Force Weapon FAQ is actually a good argument for FnP being used first.

[rle68]

^ Agreed

[chicop76]

Irrelevant.
The characteristic test is contingent on the unsaved wound. The FNP roll removes unsaved wounds.

Well if you die before you can make an unsaved wound into a saved wound is very relevant. The Toughness test removes models from the board and ignores feel no pain, which makes turning an unsaved wound to a saved wound irrelevant.

[chicop76]

The reason for the Force Weapon FAQ is to make sure that the FnP does not stop a wound that would negate the Instant Death ability.
It allows the units to use their special rules.
The Black Mace is the exact opposite.
It's rules if used first would negate the legal use of FnP.

Although it seems backwards the Force Weapon FAQ is actually a good argument for FnP being used first.

Disagree, Budlight!

[SeattleDV8]

Heh, fair enough.

[DarkLink]

"this is not a saving throw"

You clearly didn't read what I wrote.

[Magpie]

That doesn't matter. The rest of the rule states that the 'unsaved wound' doesn't exist anymore.

no it doesn't it says "treat it AS IF it was saved". Not "the wound is saved"

[Tynskel]

no it doesn't it says "treat it AS IF it was saved". Not "the wound is saved"

There are SOOOOOOO many rules in the rulebook like this. GW has consistently FAQed those to be equal to. This is more than 20 years of experience with the ruleset, too.

Feel No Pain goes first–you are given every opportunity to save a wound. Then the turn is interrupted with the Black Mace. Then you go to the next Initiative.

[chicop76]

There are SOOOOOOO many rules in the rulebook like this. GW has consistently FAQed those to be equal to. This is more than 20 years of experience with the ruleset, too.

Feel No Pain goes first–you are given every opportunity to save a wound. Then the turn is interrupted with the Black Mace. Then you go to the next Initiative.

Than FNP can cancel force weapons every time if that is true.

[Tynskel]

Than FNP can cancel force weapons every time if that is true.

No, force weapons cause instant death. Instant Death negates FNP. This is *explicitly* written in the rulebook.

Black Mace does not *explicitly* override FNP. You get your chance to negate the wound, if failed, then you roll black mace.

[chicop76]

No, force weapons cause instant death. Instant Death negates FNP. This is *explicitly* written in the rulebook.

Black Mace does not *explicitly* override FNP. You get your chance to negate the wound, if failed, then you roll black mace.

Force weapon causes an unsaved wound, FnP turns unsaved into saved and cancels out Force Weapon activation before it causes instant death.

That is what happens if FnP happens first all the time and we simply ignore FAQ.

If you want FnP to happen the way it does it will cancel out Force Weapons as well. Force Weapons do not cause instant death, the force weapon activation does. If the Force Weapon can't activate it's than negated.

Again if you ignore FAQ and go strictly by the rulebook FnP will cancel out Force Weapons. The instant death is negated before it can activate.

I think at this point since you don't even understand why FnP can cancel out a Force Weapon my stance will be FnP cancels out Force Weapons.

[rle68]

Well if you die before you can make an unsaved wound into a saved wound is very relevant. The Toughness test removes models from the board and ignores feel no pain, which makes turning an unsaved wound to a saved wound irrelevant.

"""devils advocate""" really? last time i checked the only thing that ignored fell no pain was instant death. nothing in the black mace says that.

cant believe the chaos such a 1% event can cause right now.. lol

[chicop76]

No, force weapons cause instant death. Instant Death negates FNP. This is *explicitly* written in the rulebook.

Black Mace does not *explicitly* override FNP. You get your chance to negate the wound, if failed, then you roll black mace.


There are SOOOOOOO many rules in the rulebook like this. GW has consistently FAQed those to be equal to. This is more than 20 years of experience with the ruleset, too.

Feel No Pain goes first–you are given every opportunity to save a wound. Then the turn is interrupted with the Black Mace. Then you go to the next Initiative.

1. If Feel no Pain goes first than once the Force Weapon causes an unsaved wound, FnP kicks in and is negated when unsaved becomes saved.
2. Only activated Force Weapons can negate FnP. No activation, No Instant Death.
3. There is a reason Force Weapons had to be FAQed so it goes before FnP.

Both your statements are super false. Feel no Pain doesn't happen before Force Weapon activation and Force Weapons do not cause instant death. You can say they can cause instant death, but not they cause. If you do not have any warp charge points or fail an activation there is no instant death at all.

What I find funny is that you make it sound like FnP goes first making an unsaved in to a saved. Than the Force Weapon still activates even though the unsaved portion has been negated and it can't activate. Than the Force Weapon negates FnP which already happen, because it's activation causes instant death. Wait my bad. It always cause instant death.

What those two post tells me this is what you think.

Feel no Pain happens first, but is negated due to Force Weapons always negate FnP due to always causing instant death and doesn't need to activate at all. If they worked that way than we couldn't at all compare the Mace to the Force Weapon since the Force Weapon is always active.

Again GW had to FAQ the order of operations so the Force Weapon is not negated before the instant death activation.

So saying Force Weapons cause instant death. Instant death negates FnP is completly wrong ad just opinion.

Force Weapons when activated cause instant death. Instant Death negates FnP, FnP turns unsaved into saved wounds, for a Force Weapon to active it must cause an unsaved wound, If unsaved wound condition turns into a saved wound the Force Weapon can not activate.

The above statement is Fact. Not opinion, or guess, or how I think it work. I am not qouting Force Weapon and all the FnP FAQ that supports that again.

The way you and Seattle arguing how Force Weapons can work, but Black Mace can't is completly wrong. Rle understands that statement about activated force weapons. He mentioned it enough. He also mentioned order of operations. He has valid points. While Seattle and Tynskel you two can't even really explain why a Force Weapon has to go first in order of operations over FnP, since you are stuck on Force Weapons ignore FnP.

I think I'll ignore the rule and FAQ too to suit my needs. Fnp negates Force Weapons, because instant death can't be activated. Tynskel and Seattle says FnP always go first, so Force Weapons can be negated.

[rle68]

^ best argument both ways... good post..

[Magpie]

Feel No Pain states 100% explicitly that it is not a save.

All other interpretations of any associated rules must extend from this simply stated fact.

[chicop76]

"""devils advocate""" really? last time i checked the only thing that ignored fell no pain was instant death. nothing in the black mace says that.

cant believe the chaos such a 1% event can cause right now.. lol

It is a real silly argument.

1. Black Mace is going to be used by a prince due to the bad ap.
2. The prince can smash negating fnp
3. T6 and higher models will still have fnp
4. The models that will still have FnP will need a 6 to fail the toughness test and be removed.

A. Black Mace can be saved against by FNP.
B. The toughness test is what can't be saved against. It's not causing a wound. The black mace itself is.

Do they really nee to spell out that being remove from the board can cancel out most things. Force Weapons are much more common that characteristic test removing models from the board.

Answer this can Feel no Pain save vs the Soul Trap Victoria for Grey Knights have. You fail the test you are poof.

[chicop76]

Feel No Pain states 100% explicitly that it is not a save.

All other interpretations of any associated rules must extend from this simply stated fact.

You still on that. Yes Fnp is not a save. If it was it wouldn't be as good as it is. That means you couldn't use it vs effects that says no saves of anykind.

[Magpie]

Valeria's Hyperstone Maze is totally different as it doesn't require a wound to be inflicted, she just has to be in base contact.

[chicop76]

Valeria's Hyperstone Maze is totally different as it doesn't require a wound to be inflicted, she just has to be in base contact.

That dumb wound messes everything up. For some reason I keep thinking she is Dark Eldar.

[Magpie]

You still on that. Yes Fnp is not a save. If it was it wouldn't be as good as it is. That means you couldn't use it vs effects that says no saves of anykind.

It is the key to the entire debate. If you accept that FNP is not a save then all other effects that require an Unsaved Wound, Force Weapons, Black Maces etc means that taking the FNP roll is irrelevant.

[chicop76]

^ best argument both ways... good post..

That makes me sound Bi :(.

The more I think about it the more I say to myself how often would this even be an issue. The funny part it's probably will be two daemon prince hitting each other with Black Maces and both of them will have Endurance and Iron Arm on them.

I see this being an issue with Tyranids more than the Chaos factions since Princes are toughness 5.

[chicop76]

It is the key to the entire debate. If you accept that FNP is not a save then all other effects that require an Unsaved Wound, Force Weapons, Black Maces etc means that taking the FNP roll is irrelevant.

Not really. The key is really order of operations. If Feel no Pain goes before a Black Mace than it will negate the Mace effect. It would negate a Force Weapon if it went first.

[Magpie]

Not really. The key is really order of operations. If Feel no Pain goes before a Black Mace than it will negate the Mace effect. It would negate a Force Weapon if it went first.

No it wouldn't because in each case an Unsaved wound still exists.
It simply makes sense to resolve things that make taking FNP not applicable or pointless first.

[chicop76]

No it wouldn't because in each case an Unsaved wound still exists.
It simply makes sense to resolve things that make taking FNP not applicable or pointless first.

Not really. How about this. Can feel no pain save vs a Dark Eldar Hexrifle?

[Magpie]

Not really. How about this. Can feel no pain save vs a Dark Eldar Hexrifle?

Yes of course you can however why bother rolling for it if your just going to fail your Characteristic Test anyway?
Do the Test against your wounds first, if you pass then take the FNP.

[chicop76]

Yes of course you can however why bother rolling for it if your just going to fail your Characteristic Test anyway?
Do the Test against your wounds first, if you pass then take the FNP.

So you saying that FnP can save you from being removed from the game correct? If you pass all your FnP rolls.

[Magpie]

So you saying that FnP can save you from being removed from the game correct? If you pass all your FnP rolls.

No because it doesn't save the wound. If you don't save the wound the wound is unsaved so you still have to take the test.

[chicop76]

No because it doesn't save the wound. If you don't save the wound the wound is unsaved so you still have to take the test.

But Feel no Pain can make an unsaved wound into a saved wound. Which would negate it.

[Magpie]

But Feel no Pain can make an unsaved wound into a saved wound. Which would negate it.

No it can't.

"Treat as having been saved" does not equal "saved"

[chicop76]

No it can't.

"Treat as having been saved" does not equal "saved"

Can toooo!

Feel no Pain can save vs Perils of the Warp when you simply take a wound with no saves allowed. Which means FnP can be used against the rifle.

[Magpie]

Can toooo!

Feel no Pain can save vs Perils of the Warp when you simply take a wound with no saves allowed. Which means FnP can be used against the rifle.

If Perils of the Warp says you cannot take any form of save, yet you can discount the wound with FNP, that must mean that FNP is not a save otherwise you'd not be allowed to take it.
The wound is discounted but it is still "unsaved".

Yes FNP can be used against the hexrifle wound but it has exactly 0 effect on the need to take the wound characteristic test.

[Caitsidhe]

If Perils of the Warp says you cannot take any form of save, yet you can discount the wound with FNP, that must mean that FNP is not a save otherwise you'd not be allowed to take it.
The wound is discounted but it is still "unsaved".

This above says it all. This right here goes to the heart of the matter as far as "logic" is concerned. "Treat as saved" is NOT the same thing as "saved." This means the trigger for the Black Mace still happened. FNP is allowed to remove a Perils of the Warp Wound because IT IS NOT A SAVE. By this token, a wound "treated as saved" because of FNP doesn't stop the Black Mace Trigger. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too. Look, I've said fro the start that I have no idea how Games Workshop will end up ruling on this. They are capricious and often ridiculous. Who knows why, for example, my flamer templates can hit people inside buildings but can't hurt people in open-topped vehicles. But, the RAW is not capricious. Currently, applying the rules of logic (which is all I am doing) FNP does not stop the trigger.

[Tynskel]

Irrelevant.
Treated as saved = saved. That's how GW has always written their rules. Go thought the FAQs. In every instance something is treated as something else it *is* that other thing.

The point is, the Black Mace does not explicitly override FNP. For a codes rule to override a rulebook rule, it has to explicitly be in conflict. The Black Mace does not explicitly state that it overrides FNP pain. This means that you roll to hit, roll to wound, take armor saves, take feel no pain, then interrupt the normal game phase with the toughness roll, afterward, you continue in initiative order.

[chicop76]

If Perils of the Warp says you cannot take any form of save, yet you can discount the wound with FNP, that must mean that FNP is not a save otherwise you'd not be allowed to take it.
The wound is discounted but it is still "unsaved".

Yes FNP can be used against the hexrifle wound but it has exactly 0 effect on the need to take the wound characteristic test.

Duhhh. Hince why it can be used to save vs Perils. I slap you cause I have said it is not technically a save like 100x. Please don't say FnP is not a save, especally when I am saying the same thing. Makes you look special. I am using the word save yes, since it turns an unsaved wound into a save. Which means you make a save, yet at the same time it's not a save. Slap you again.

To pull of the rifle effect you have to wound. Which is an unsaved wound, which FnP turn into a saved wound which neagtes the rifle effect.

It again the more I think about it would negate the wound test. The reason being since you have taken a wound Feel no Pain would negate the wound which will allow you to save vs the wound test.

[chicop76]

Irrelevant.
Treated as saved = saved. That's how GW has always written their rules. Go thought the FAQs. In every instance something is treated as something else it *is* that other thing.

The point is, the Black Mace does not explicitly override FNP. For a codes rule to override a rulebook rule, it has to explicitly be in conflict. The Black Mace does not explicitly state that it overrides FNP pain. This means that you roll to hit, roll to wound, take armor saves, take feel no pain, then interrupt the normal game phase with the toughness roll, afterward, you continue in initiative order.

Relevant. Can FnP be used to save vs a toughness test? If not BlackMace overrides FNP. If it can than it can negate.

That would mean that Fnp can be used to save vs any characteristic test. That is what you saying.

Also if you keep saying FnP goes first that means it negates Force Weapons as well.

[Tynskel]

Relevant. Can FnP be used to save vs a toughness test? If not BlackMace overrides FNP. If it can than it can negate.

That would mean that Fnp can be used to save vs any characteristic test. That is what you saying.

Also if you keep saying FnP goes first that means it negates Force Weapons as well.

Irrelevant.
Even if the toughness test were to occur before FNP, it would be negated by FNP because the Black Mace does not *explicitly* override the rulebook.



Hahahah! I love that you keep bringing up Force Weapons: they cause Instant Death, and have been FAQed to clear up any confusion. Instant Death *EXPLICITLY* overrides FNP.

Here's another example: Jump Pack Units cannot board transports. Stormraven entry: jump packs may board. This is a codex rule that *EXPLICITLY* overrides the rulebook.

[Caitsidhe]

Irrelevant.
Treated as saved = saved. That's how GW has always written their rules. Go thought the FAQs. In every instance something is treated as something else it *is* that other thing.

The point is, the Black Mace does not explicitly override FNP. For a codes rule to override a rulebook rule, it has to explicitly be in conflict. The Black Mace does not explicitly state that it overrides FNP pain. This means that you roll to hit, roll to wound, take armor saves, take feel no pain, then interrupt the normal game phase with the toughness roll, afterward, you continue in initiative order.

Then by your logic, you may NOT take FNP rolls against Perils. You are saying "treat as saved" is a "save" and since no save can be taken against Perils, you won't get one. Do you see the logic? You can't have it both ways. It is one or the other.

[chicop76]

Irrelevant.
Even if the toughness test were to occur before FNP, it would be negated by FNP because the Black Mace does not *explicitly* override the rulebook.



Hahahah! I love that you keep bringing up Force Weapons: they cause Instant Death, and have been FAQed to clear up any confusion. Instant Death *EXPLICITLY* overrides FNP.

Here's another example: Jump Pack Units cannot board transports. Stormraven entry: jump packs may board. This is a codex rule that *EXPLICITLY* overrides the rulebook.

You still ignore the questions.

Fast: Only when you activate a Force Weapon they cause instant death, a non activated Force Weapon does not cause instant death. Say it with me. Stop saying force weapons cause instant death when they do not 100% of the time
You realize you saying FnP works against everything, but instant death. How are you FnP if you are removed from the board.

I bring up Force Weapons due to what goes first, force weapon or FnP. By your logic FnP should negate Force Weapons anyway. Oh I forgot Force Weapons are always active and always cause instant death. Heck let me spend my warp charge up.

You completly in the stands on not even on the field. The issue is does a characteristic test negate fnp or the other way around.

Let's put it this way. The Specific codex always overrules main book. If an effect says remove as an casualty, guess what it is removed as a casualty or removed from play. Only a handful of models can negate that effect. Saint Celestine and a few others can negate it.

Force Weapons do not negate FNP
Activated Force Weapons can negate FNP, due to instant death

[chicop76]

Let me try to get this back on track. If you believe x explain x instead of just cause and not backing up your argument.

At this point we can look at the problem 2 ways. I'm saying Mace goes first than FNP. We have nothing that states otherwise. The only thing we have is the Force Weapon FAQ and it should be save to say Mace should follow the same operation.

A. We get a situation where the toughness test goes off and FnP is not able to activate due to the model being removed as a casaulty

Or

B. Since the toughness test does not have instant death you have to wait fr the FnP effect to go off. When FnP kicks in it negates Black Mace.


I explained enough times why A makes sense, as well as other people. I can see why B makes sense, but I still do not see why B would overrule A. Saying instant death does not matter at all with A since the model is dead before FnP kicks in. It matters with B however since you are still allowing FNP to occur.

I read over the material and started focusing on remove as a casualty. In a round about way toughness, wounds, and strength have to be reduced to 0 to cause a casualty. Instant Death reduces wounds to 0 to be able to remove the model, unless said model have eternal warrior. I think tx to Perils I can argue that FnP can save against anything as long as a wound is involved. Reducing wounds to 0 is still taking a wound and FnP can be able to negate the effect.

However the problem I see is you can argue you might be reducing toughness to 0 which wouldn't allow FnP to kick in.

At this point I feel Black Mace does not need to be FAQed.

I think remove as a casualty needs to be FAQed. Also order of operations needs to be FAQed for those special people who wants to argue the Force Weapon issues and needs everything to be spelled out.

If you address more specifically what happens when you are removed, example wounds reduced to 0, and if FNP can be used to save vs Characteristic test, especially if they say they need an unsaved wound to trigger. Than it will clear up Black Mace and other weapons that work lice the Mace. FAQing Mace only will have people say that's only for the Mace and not for the similair weapons even though you have exact wording.

[Tynskel]

Then by your logic, you may NOT take FNP rolls against Perils. You are saying "treat as saved" is a "save" and since no save can be taken against Perils, you won't get one. Do you see the logic? You can't have it both ways. It is one or the other.

That is illogical.
Just because you cannot take a save throw against a particular attack does not mean that the wound cannot be saved.

You still get to take your feel no pain. Just saying that you want to use the Black Mace first does not allow you to override the Rulebook Rules. Codex rules do not negate rulebook rules unless *explicitly* stated.


There are *plenty* of rules with similar wording to the Black Mace. Those instances do not inflict wounds. The key here is the trigger word: unsaved wounds. FNP can *negate* that trigger. Therefore, FNP is rolled.

For example: look at Acid Blood. It is triggered on Unsaved wound. If you have Feel No Pain, you roll that first, and if you fail, you trigger Acid Blood. You don't get to trigger Acid Blood if you do not take a wound. The Same is for the Black Mace. You don't get to trigger the Black Mace if Feel No Pain is successful.



Activated Force Weapons Negate FNP. The FAQ is an exception, because Force Weapons have the capability to negate FNP. Black Mace has no such rule whatsoever!

[SeattleDV8]

Okay, by strict RAW the Black Mace's effect could be used first in the Deamon's turn.
Where FnP would be used first in the defender's turn.
As per page 9 Exceptions

Thats the best you can hope for chicop.
Since both effects are triggered by the same thing, a unsaved wound.


I personally feel that is silly, but then again I almost never have units with FnP or run Deamons,
I doubt I will ever have it happen.

Given how GW has ruled on this sort of thing in the past, you better get used people using FnP before the Black Mace.
Black Mace does not negate a FnP roll, I think you will see a FAQ that allows the FnP before the Black Mace.

In any case I find the arguments for cheap loop-holes a bit low class.

[rle68]

that thud sound you keep hear is me banging my head into the wall... enough please someone lock this nonesense

[Daemonette666]

If you ignore the wound, then you didn't suffer an unsaved wound to trigger the test.

I tend to agree that you can take a FNP, the same as with a Hex rifle. GW needs to make a FAQ/Errata update. It would have to be something that says the following:

Weapons that require a test to remove a model from play, or weapons like Force weapons that require a test to activate them to become instant death, have their tests rolled before Feel No Pain tests are rolled. If the model has made the Characteristic test, or the weapon fails to inflict instant death, then the Feel No Pain test can be made to discount the wound.

As it is only weapons like force weapons need a test LD in this case to make them Instant death. GW have not yet ruled that weapons that remove a model from play are instant death. They need to do this in order for the FNP to be taken after the Characteristic test.

[Magpie]

Just because you cannot take a save throw against a particular attack does not mean that the wound cannot be saved.

Or to put it another way : Just because it can't be saved doesn't mean it can't be saved ...............

[chicop76]

that thud sound you keep hear is me banging my head into the wall... enough please someone lock this nonesense

I already did that. I already said I don't run the Mace at all. I actualy play one of the rare armies that will be maced. Enduranced or +4 fnp Bloodthirster vs Black Mace Prince. I actually went against that prince, but vectored striked it to death.

I alreay said both sides have merit. If it wasn't for the order of operations for a force weapon, honestly I think it would be no argument at all. If yu can say without a doubt that if the toughness test goes before FnP that FnP will still begate the toughness test and show me where it says that than I will be fine.

However I see a few people miss the point by a country mile and bring up stuff that I have said, repeat it, and say the exact thing I already said arguing with the exact thing I said. Which I consider madness.

The other thread with the rifle have a higher chance of happening than this.

Again since I play daemons which I do use endurance and +4 feel no pain and have to go against grey knights with force weapons and can force me to lose models froom play with leadership test. If I favor the Blace Mace rule it doesn't benefit me at all. Benefiting FNP benefit me far more than wishing on the mace.

[chicop76]

Or to put it another way : Just because it can't be saved doesn't mean it can't be saved ...............

Can I slap you. I thought the other two was bad. You're the only one who thinks the way you do. The perils FAQ and the FNP wording says differantly. Argue something else. Or use a differant direction. The way FnP is worded it's pretty cut and dry.

[Magpie]

The way FnP is worded it's pretty cut and dry.

Yep "this is not a saving throw" doesn't leave you too much room to move.

[chicop76]

Yep "this is not a saving throw" doesn't leave you too much room to move.

I see the point you are trying to make. At one point you have an unsaved wound sitting out there. The problem is that FnP makes the unsaved wound into a saved one. Which means between the time of the unsaved wound turning into a saved wound is the critical point.

The reason Force Weapons go off is you have the unsaved moment when it test and becomes an instant death weapon. The issue here is do the model die to the instant death before FnP or FnP is negated and the model dies.

We just don't know which happens which makes a huge differance. Which makes the differance if Blace Mace is negated or not.

If FnP happens before the Mace than the wound becomes saved and Black Mace is negated.

Honestly like someone suggested that turn order takes presedence.

You realise at some point due to FnP you have a save if FnP makes a succesful roll.

[Magpie]

The problem is that FnP makes the unsaved wound into a saved one ... Which means between the time of the unsaved wound turning into a saved wound is the critical point .... You realise at some point due to FnP you have a save if FnP makes a succesful roll.

10000000 times no. If FNP turns an unsaved into a save or if "you have a save if FNP makes a successful roll" then FNP is A: A Saving Throw and B: Cannot be taken against Perils of the Warp and a raft of other things that do not allow saves of any kind.

Neither of which is correct. It is not a saving throw and it can be taken against perils.

[chicop76]

10000000 times no. If FNP turns an unsaved into a save or if "you have a save if FNP makes a successful roll" then FNP is A: A Saving Throw and B: Cannot be taken against Perils of the Warp and a raft of other things that do not allow saves of any kind.

Neither of which is correct. It is not a saving throw and it can be taken against perils.

Feel no Pain is not a savings throw. However it has an effect that turns an unsaved wound into a saved wound.

When you get perils for example which you can not have any savings throw of anykind allowed. You are not making any savings throw at all. Feel no Pain can be use since it's not a save.

Let's put it this way:

No saves allowed.

What is a Save

Saves:
Armour Save
Invulnerable Save
Cover Save

No saves of any kind= No armour, Invulnerable, or Cover saves

Perils causes an unsaved wound, FNP turns unsaved wound into a saving effect. The saving effect is not an armour, invulnerable, or cover save. It's a saving effect.

I get what you saing since Perils says you can't have a save. That you can't make a save. Blame GW you decided to FaQ FnP and make it more powerful.

Thanks to that FaQ FnP is an exception to the rule.

[Daemonette666]

I have worked it out so it is both logical, and everyone can see the relevant rule, codex and FAQ pages I am using. This works for both the Hex Rifle from the DE Codex and the Black Mace.

1: Roll to hit as per the rule book pages 13, and page 24.

2: Roll to wound. Hex rifle 4+ to wound sniper weapon BRB page 42 (strength 3, rending, pinning), AP 4, the Black Mace (Strength user, AP 4, fleshbane (wounds on a 2+ page 35 rule book) Daemon weapon +D6 attacks (CSM Codex page 30), cursed (CSM codex page 69).

3: Take appropriate armour save unless rending or weapon ignores armour save, or take cover save (if appropriate), or invulnerable save unless the weapon does not even allow these type of saves.

4: Make Feel No Pain roll (BRB page 35) if weapon does not cause instant death (BRB page 38). Weapons that require a test to determine if they are instant death like force weapons, roll before the FNP roll to see if they become Instant Death. If they do not become instant death, the FNP roll is made.

5: Unless there is a FAQ/Errata that I could not find, that states that weapons that remove the target model from play as a casualty are treated as Instant Death, then this the special characteristic tests are made if the FNP roll is failed. Toughness for the Balck Mace, and starting Wounds for the Hex Rifle.

Remove the target model that suffered the unsaved wound from play as a casualty. The Black Mace then has extra rules for creating extra wounds on all enemy models in 3" of the bearer that have not made suffered an unsaved wound this phase have to take a toughness test with no saves of any kind allowed, or suffer a wound.

Now I am basing this all on the following facts. FNP is NOT a saving, but if the roll is successful, it is treated as having saved against the wound, and disregards the wound. This means you take the FNP first because you have the chance to disregard the wound ever being taken, and passing the save, (but not technically making a saving throw).

The rules do not state that the weapons that remove a model from play based on a characteristic test have the Instant Death rule. So until GW FAQ/Errata this, I will treat them as such not being Instant Death.

There is another thing with the Black mace where the target may have to take multiple toughness tests if it fails multiple saves and FNP rolls, but there is the opposite side of the fence arguing that you only make one toughness regardless of the ammount of saves/FNP that are failed. I go with the multiple toughness test side of the fence here. Since the hex rifle is only assault 1, it only causes one wound, so this does not have the additional issue/rule to discuss.

One thing I have noticed looking up the Instant death rule, and comparing it to the old 5th edition rule. Weapons who's strength is twice the toughness of the target do not cause instant death anymore. I have looked up the rule book under wounding, instant death, the relevant Errata/FAQ, and could not find anything that makes a noise marine with FNP from an Icon of Excess lose their FNP roll from strength 8 or higher weapons. I think it is a carry over from 5th edition that most old gamers have in the back of their minds, and have just transferred over to 6th edition, without even looking it up. Unless there is a rule that specifies this that I have missed (is so give me the page reference). If this is the case, then all those Battlecannon, lascannon, and other weapons that used to instant kill Obliterators, and other multi-wound units are less powerful now.

[chicop76]

I have worked it out so it is both logical, and everyone can see the relevant rule, codex and FAQ pages I am using. This works for both the Hex Rifle from the DE Codex and the Black Mace.

1: Roll to hit as per the rule book pages 13, and page 24.

2: Roll to wound. Hex rifle 4+ to wound sniper weapon BRB page 42 (strength 3, rending, pinning), AP 4, the Black Mace (Strength user, AP 4, fleshbane (wounds on a 2+ page 35 rule book) Daemon weapon +D6 attacks (CSM Codex page 30), cursed (CSM codex page 69).

3: Take appropriate armour save unless rending or weapon ignores armour save, or take cover save (if appropriate), or invulnerable save unless the weapon does not even allow these type of saves.

4: Make Feel No Pain roll (BRB page 35) if weapon does not cause instant death (BRB page 38). Weapons that require a test to determine if they are instant death like force weapons, roll before the FNP roll to see if they become Instant Death. If they do not become instant death, the FNP roll is made.

5: Unless there is a FAQ/Errata that I could not find, that states that weapons that remove the target model from play as a casualty are treated as Instant Death, then this the special characteristic tests are made if the FNP roll is failed. Toughness for the Balck Mace, and starting Wounds for the Hex Rifle.

Remove the target model that suffered the unsaved wound from play as a casualty. The Black Mace then has extra rules for creating extra wounds on all enemy models in 3" of the bearer that have not made suffered an unsaved wound this phase have to take a toughness test with no saves of any kind allowed, or suffer a wound.

Now I am basing this all on the following facts. FNP is NOT a saving, but if the roll is successful, it is treated as having saved against the wound, and disregards the wound. This means you take the FNP first because you have the chance to disregard the wound ever being taken, and passing the save, (but not technically making a saving throw).

The rules do not state that the weapons that remove a model from play based on a characteristic test have the Instant Death rule. So until GW FAQ/Errata this, I will treat them as such not being Instant Death.

There is another thing with the Black mace where the target may have to take multiple toughness tests if it fails multiple saves and FNP rolls, but there is the opposite side of the fence arguing that you only make one toughness regardless of the ammount of saves/FNP that are failed. I go with the multiple toughness test side of the fence here. Since the hex rifle is only assault 1, it only causes one wound, so this does not have the additional issue/rule to discuss.

One thing I have noticed looking up the Instant death rule, and comparing it to the old 5th edition rule. Weapons who's strength is twice the toughness of the target do not cause instant death anymore. I have looked up the rule book under wounding, instant death, the relevant Errata/FAQ, and could not find anything that makes a noise marine with FNP from an Icon of Excess lose their FNP roll from strength 8 or higher weapons. I think it is a carry over from 5th edition that most old gamers have in the back of their minds, and have just transferred over to 6th edition, without even looking it up. Unless there is a rule that specifies this that I have missed (is so give me the page reference). If this is the case, then all those Battlecannon, lascannon, and other weapons that used to instant kill Obliterators, and other multi-wound units are less powerful now.

Look up instant death than it will give you aother page referance saying double strength weapons cause instant death. It does not say it under the special rule section, but in the special rule section the instant death there states the page number where isntant death is covered in more detail.

When I near my book I can tell you exact page number, but it is in the wound section, before the special abilities section.

[Daemonette666]

Cool found it page 16 BRB. Still the Hexrifle and the Black Mace (unless its strength is twice that of the Targets toughness) does not cause Instant death, so in these cases FNP could be made.

[rle68]

No because it doesn't save the wound. If you don't save the wound the wound is unsaved so you still have to take the test.

i have read this over and over and have come to an undeniable conclusion.. you are purposely trying to start more garbage because its obvious you cant read

because of your tard logic here then i guess if you take a wound fnp cant do anything ever since it doesnt treat wounds as being saved.. go away kid you bother me

[Magpie]

I'm thinking you've missed something there mate, the wound is treated as having been saved. It says so in the rule. Maybe you need to read it a bit closer.
Thing is it also says that it is not a saving throw. The only way that those two concepts can be true in the same instance is if "treated as having been saved" means it has the effect of a save without actually making the unsaved wound into a saved wound.

For the real life example I outlined before this works and makes all of the confusion about how the various effects come into play go away.
It is often the simplest solution that fits best with GW and this is another of those cases.

Ask yourself which is most likely?
GW wanted the Black Mace to only be effective during your turn when you can choose the order and avoid being negated by FNP or that FNP just simply isn't an issue?

[Asuryan]

Ask yourself which is most likely?
GW wanted the Black Mace to only be effective during your turn when you can choose the order and avoid being negated by FNP or that FNP just simply isn't an issue?

What's most likely is that GW has no idea what's it is doing when it writes half its rules, which stems all the RAW vs RAI debates. I'm pretty sure that GW had no idea that the black mace vs FNP deal would ever exists.

[daboarder]

Combating stupid, wherever I can


When a model with this special rule suffers
an unsaved Wound, it can make a special
Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded
(this is not a saving throw). Roll a D6 each
time an unsaved wound is suffered. On
a 4 or less, you must take the wound as
normal. On a 5+, the unsaved wound is
discounted - treat it as having been saved.


saved is saved, avoided is avoided and discounted is discounted

[Magpie]

"What's most likely is that GW has no idea what's it is doing when it writes half its rules,"

Or it could simply be that most of us over analyse things to the point of confusion I find that much more likely than a company who have been writing rules for well over 20 years, a rule set which spans the globe, has no idea what they are doing.


Yes "saved is saved, avoided is avoided and discounted is discounted" and all 3 have differing means which is why GW take great pains to use each in their own way.

What you are doing is reading the rule in a manner which makes it contradict itself.

Your interpretation says "It becomes a saved wound" which is in direct conflict with "this is not a saving throw."
My interpretation allows the wound to be treated as having been saved but only to the extent that it does not become unsaved as that is contrary to "this is not a saving throw"

[daboarder]

When a model with this special rule suffers
an unsaved Wound, it can make a special
Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded
(this is not a saving throw). Roll a D6 each
time an unsaved wound is suffered. On
a 4 or less, you must take the wound as
normal. On a 5+, the unsaved wound is
discounted - treat it as having been saved.


It doesn't say, AS IF
It states HAS BEEN

[Magpie]

It doesn't say, AS IF
It states HAS BEEN

That's not what you said before tho', makes it tricky if you aren't stating your case clearly.

You have still not addressed how your interpretation of "treat it as having been saved" reconciles the contradiction with "this is not a saving throw"

[daboarder]

When a model with this special rule suffers
an unsaved Wound, it can make a special
Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded
(this is not a saving throw). Roll a D6 each
time an unsaved wound is suffered. On
a 4 or less, you must take the wound as
normal. On a 5+, the unsaved wound is
discounted - treat it as having been saved.


Thats the rule, read it

Can be taken against lilliths close combat attacks and Perils for example, which is why though the outcome is the same as a saving throw the roll itself is not defined as one.

You have yet to provide a reference that states that FNP does not follow the rules as laid out here. Or a reference that states that FNP leaves "unsaved wounds"

[Magpie]

I have, all of it, not just the bits you are looking at.

[daboarder]

Mod's can you kill this thread please?


When a model with this special rule suffers
an unsaved Wound, it can make a special
Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded
(this is not a saving throw). Roll a D6 each
time an unsaved wound is suffered. On
a 4 or less, you must take the wound as
normal. On a 5+, the unsaved wound is
discounted - treat it as having been saved.

[DarkLink]

Just in case this wasn't clear:

When a model with this special rule suffers
an unsaved Wound, it can make a special
Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded
(this is not a saving throw). Roll a D6 each
time an unsaved wound is suffered. On
a 4 or less, you must take the wound as
normal. On a 5+, the unsaved wound is
discounted - treat it as having been saved.

[Magpie]

Don't bleat to the mods when you paint yourself into a corner.

Have a look at the rule for Strikedown

"Any model that suffers one or more unsaved wounds or passes one or more
saving throws against an attack with the Strikedown special rule is knocked
off its feet and must get up before it can do anything else."

You interpretation means that if you take a successful FNP against such a wound you won't feel the effect of strikedown, yet every other case of being hit means you fall to the ground.
That doesn't work does it.

Ergo, FNP must leave the wound classified as unsaved

Just to recap "this is not a saving throw" add your own red and big text if it helps you work out how to not make the rule contradict itself.

[daboarder]

When a model with this special rule suffers
an unsaved Wound, it can make a special
Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded
(this is not a saving throw). Roll a D6 each
time an unsaved wound is suffered. On
a 4 or less, you must take the wound as
normal. On a 5+, the unsaved wound is
discounted - treat it as having been saved.


Stop being silly, FNP tells you the wound is treatd as having been saved, is avoided and discounted, as such then YES you do suffer from strike down if you make a FNP roll as strike down doesn't care if you made a saved or failed it.

Edited: had to re-read strikedown

[chicop76]

I see, so you saying that when I have an unsaved wound it is saved which becomes unsaved, and feel no pain turns saved which must be saved into unsaved. When the mace effect denies all logic you than procedd to do this.

1. Grab a blunt object, if object is black and a mace than it's perfect.
2. Pick up model and throw it on the floor.
3. Smash model with blunt object. Threaten opponent with object if need be.
4. After smashing model tell model owner to roll feel no pain roll.
5. When opponent rolls Feel no Pain may have to threaten with blunt object, see if model passes feel no pain.
6. You know wehn model pass when it reassembles itself.
7. If model remains removed from table and smashed it is treated as a casualty and no amount of feel no pain can bring the model back at this point.


Just in case this wasn't clear:




When a model with this special rule suffers
an unsaved Wound, it can make a special
Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded
(this is not a saving throw). Roll a D6 each
time an unsaved wound is suffered. On
a 4 or less, you must take the wound as
normal. On a 5+, the unsaved wound is
discounted - treat it as having been saved.

[SeattleDV8]

There is no contradiction, the FnP wound is 'treated as saved'.
This means that the model would be affected by Strikedown.

Offer some rules to back your opinion, a thing you have not done as of yet.

[rle68]

I have, all of it, not just the bits you are looking at.

if you have read you sure as hades dont understand it

[Magpie]

Stop being silly, FNP tells you the wound is treatd as having been saved, is avoided and discounted, as such then YES you do suffer from strike down if you make a FNP roll as strike down doesn't care if you made a saved or failed it.

Edited: had to re-read strikedown

Ok lets look at that.

If FNP turns and unsaved wound into a saved wound and you successfully take FNP on a strike down wound then you have not incurred an unsaved wound.
You have also not passed one or more saving throws because as stated in the rule FNP is not a saving throw.

So Strikedown cannot apply if you take FNP against it if you go with the interpretation you have suggested for FNP.

[SeattleDV8]

Yes, you can because you - treat it as having been saved , I repeat treat it as having been saved


Why is this so hard for you to understand?

[daboarder]

You know, I was really annoyed at this before. But now I think it's just funny. no one would actually try this in a game right....right?...guys?

sigh.


When a model with this special rule suffers
an unsaved Wound, it can make a special
Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded
(this is not a saving throw). Roll a D6 each
time an unsaved wound is suffered. On
a 4 or less, you must take the wound as
normal. On a 5+, the unsaved wound is
discounted - treat it as having been saved.

[SeattleDV8]

Heh.....no kidding.

[daboarder]

Perhaps its worth a final try,

FNP while not being a save, does, if successful, result in a situation in which the wound is treated such that it had (for all game purposes) been saved by a saving throw.

How can you not reconcile this magpie?

[Magpie]

I see you took out "as if it had", nice catch.

You have still suffered an unsaved wound, you have to have otherwise FNP cannot be used.
An Unsaved wound can only come about from having failed a saving throw there for it follows that the only way a wound can become a saved wound is for you to pass a saving throw.
Feel No Pain is not a saving throw, it merely allows you to ignore the effect of an unsaved wound which is to reduce your wounds by 1.

You have still suffered an unsaved wound, just not the effects of an unsaved wound.

In the same way a successful saving throw does not turn a hit that wounds into a hit that doesn't wound, FNP does not turn an Unsaved wound into a saved wound.

[daboarder]

I see you took out "as if it had", nice catch.

You have still suffered an unsaved wound, you have to have otherwise FNP cannot be used.
An Unsaved wound can only come about from having failed a saving throw there for it follows that the only way a wound can become a saved wound is for you to pass a saving throw.
Feel No Pain is not a saving throw, it merely allows you to ignore the effect of an unsaved wound which is to reduce your wounds by 1.

You have still suffered an unsaved wound, just not the effects of an unsaved wound.

In the same way a successful saving throw does not turn a hit that wounds into a hit that doesn't wound, FNP does not turn an Unsaved wound into a saved wound.

edit: you have to be trolling right? I'm mean your not actually this stupid are you?


When a model with this special rule suffers
an unsaved Wound, it can make a special
Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded
(this is not a saving throw). Roll a D6 each
time an unsaved wound is suffered. On
a 4 or less, you must take the wound as
normal. On a 5+, the unsaved wound is
discounted - treat it as having been saved.

[chicop76]

edit: you have to be trolling right? I'm mean your not actually this stupid are you?

Maybe he went full retard. At least Forrest Gump and Rain man didn't go full retard.

[SeattleDV8]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y3FzVQi-R8
pretty much.

[Asuryan]

Q: In assault, what comes first – Feel No Pain rolls or the roll to
activate a Force weapon? (p37)
A: The roll to activate a Force Weapon is made before
determining whether or not the victim is permitted a Feel
No Pain roll.

Since nothing the Black mace does determines whether or not the model is permitted a FNP roll or not, then FNP goes first.

from the Errata of the FAQ for Feel no Pain

Add the following paragraph "if one or more models in a unit have the Feel no Pain special rule then the Mixed Saves method of Wound allocation should always be used for allocating wounds and removing casualties from that unit; Feel No pain rolls should be individually made after each failed save."

Allocate wound, take saving throw, Failed save FNP, Failed FNP Unsaved wound.

[daboarder]

See this is why your argument is annoying magpie, It detracts from the important.

The mace and FNP happen at the same time (unsaved wound), As such we follow this rule on pg 9


At other times, you'll find that both
players will have to do something at the same time. When
these things happen, the player whose turn it is decides the
order in which the events occur.

[Daemonette666]

Both this topic on the black mace and the one discussing the Hex rifle are so similar. I have cut and pasted my blurb on the other topic here, and will add a few things because the Black mace has additional rules regarding multiple wounds.

From my other post

"FNP is a sneaky little rule GW have in the rule book to allow models to ignore the unsaved wound result. It has specifically been given the little quote in its rules that "this is not a save" so that you can use it when the attacks effects do not allow saves to be taken. If the FNP roll is successful, it then goes on to say that "the unsaved wound is discounted - treat it as having been saved".

This means you can take the FNP when saves are not allowed, if successful the unsaved wound is discounted (does not take effect) so any trigger actions such as characteristic tests can not be triggered. The fact that it say "treat it as having been saved" means that the wound was saved against. You could argue that the FNP negates the effect that the wound ever occurred, so a saving throw is not required. Think of it as a pre-emptive characteristic test that replaces the roll to wound. If passed, the model was not wounded the wound was saved against. The trigger effects of both the hex rifle and the black mace do not occur.

The only thing I can see that needs to be discussed (not argued about - as I hate when these discussions get into name calling and verbal abuse) is which takes priority, the FNP or the triggered effect. Since FNP has the chance to ignore the trigger effect of the hex rifle or the black mace, then working off the FAQd example of force weapons getting their LD test to see if they become Instant death (thus cancelling FNP), I would take the FNP first to see if it cancels out the trigger action of the hexrifle (an unsaved wound). If the FNP is passed, the unsaved wound did not occur, if failed, the hex rifle starting wounds test is made. Some may argue that the 2 tests are simultaneous, so it is the controlling players decision which goes first. other will use the Force weapon FAQ as an example, which other will then discount and say it is for force weapons only, and can not be used in this case unless it gets a FAQ. I stick by what I believe, and await GWs next FAQ/Errata that hopefully will fix the problem. "

the additional things to discuss on this topic are:

1. Whether the black mace forces a FNP roll for each wound inflicted. I think it does, as the roll would be need to cancel out each wound caused. The FNP rolls would come first, and those failed force the Toughness test/s.

2. Does the model wounded by the Black Mace have to take a toughness test for each unsaved wound inflicted after the FNP roll failed to discount the wound being caused in the first place, or is it only required to take one test regardless of the number of unsaved wounds that get through? Going by the rules, and the fact that it does not specifically state "one or more" as it does with other weapons, I believe the target model needs to take a toughness test for each unsaved wound.

I have previously quoted the relevant pages for the special rules, weapons rules, FAQs, and other examples for weapons have been quoted by others, so I will not quote them again.

[Tynskel]

See this is why your argument is annoying magpie, It detracts from the important.

The mace and FNP happen at the same time (unsaved wound), As such we follow this rule on pg 9


they actually don't as the force weapon FAQ states.

[daboarder]

I see nothing in the following that mentions the black mace, it is not a force weapon therefore the following is of no relevance


: In assault, what comes first – Feel No Pain rolls or the roll to
activate a Force weapon? (p37)
A: The roll to activate a Force Weapon is made before
determining whether or not the victim is permitted a Feel
No Pain roll.

The player whose turn it is chooses.

[Caitsidhe]

I think the salient points and differing points of views are well marked out at this point. I've kind of bailed on the debate because there is nothing that we haven't said six times already. There is nothing to do but wait for the eventual Faq and the Snoopy Dance of the victors.

[Daemonette666]

I agree. I have had my say, trying to be as diplomatic as I can. Hopefully GW will FAQ it, and as I said in the Hex Rifle thread, if GW do Errata/FAQ it, perhaps they could make the FNP roll come after the model gets wounded, but before the saving throw is made. FNP is after all a way to shrug off the wound, discount it. Then weapons like Force weapons would take their LD test before the FNP roll to see if they cancel out FNP working.

Now how would you handle force weapons that wound multiple times, if GW errata'd the rule to make the FNP roll come before saves are made? Simply roll to hit, roll to wound, take the force weapon LD test once for all successful, roll for FNP for each wound taken, then if the weapon allows, take the models best save it can get for each wound. At this point special tests like a toughness or starting wounds test is made as per the weapons special rules to see if the model is removed from play.

[mikehardez]

Wow! OP here. This thread really went bananas in my absence. I'll go more in depth into the answer to my original query in a later post, but I wanted to weigh in on the whole FnP thing.


Or to put it another way : Just because it can't be saved doesn't mean it can't be saved ...............

This is very poorly worded, but effectively correct.

To put it yet another way, a saving throw is not the only way to save a wound. I realize that's counter-intuitive, but FnP is by definition a non saving throw which allows you to save wounds.

For example, let's say I wound with one Black Mace hit. Model then takes a toughness test and passes. Model then rolls FnP and saves the wound. At the end of the assault phase, the AoE effect of the Black Mace does not trigger; by the time the ability checks its trigger conditions, the wound has been saved.

The whole reason there was a FAQ about whether FnP or Force Weapon activation went first is because of this fact. Let's pretend that FnP did go first in an example scenario.

1) Force Weapon wielder successfully wounds model with FnP.

2) FnP model fails to make armor save.

3) Wounded model now rolls FnP... and makes it. The wound is treated as being saved.

4) The Force Weapon wielder now checks for Force Weapon activation. As the original wound has now been saved, he does not meet the conditions to activate his Force Weapon.

Some important things to remember as to why it would work this way: Force Weapons DO NOT have the Instant Death USR; they do not ignore FnP.

And thus, there are two interpretations that can be made when looking at the FAQ entry:

1) GW decided that Force Weapon and only Force Weapon activation should be checked before FnP because of its ability to gain Instant Death. In other words, even though Instant Death isn't a sure thing with Force Weapons, they didn't want FnP shutting down FW activation for what amounts to fluff reasons.

2) Abilities that trigger immediately upon causing unsaved wounds do so before FnP is checked. If the resolution of the triggered ability causes the model to be removed from play, FnP is never rolled.

Personally, I believe option 2 makes the most sense. From a RAW perspective, the use of "immediately" implies the ability triggers the moment the model fails its save. As FnP is explicitly not a save (and a model can never roll more than one save), even if you were to rule that the abilities trigger simultaneously, FnP merely prevents models from taking wounds, not being removed from play. From a RAI standpoint, FnP is supposed to represent a model continuing to fight in spite of being wounded. I find it very doubtful that GW intended FnP to do anything except prevent a given model from losing a wound. You can't grit your teeth to stop yourself from collapsing into mouldering bone.

Please also see http://www.theruleslawyers.com/2011/10/rulings-dark-eldar-hex-rifles-vs-feel-no-pain/

[rle68]

You know, I was really annoyed at this before. But now I think it's just funny. no one would actually try this in a game right....right?...guys?

sigh.

not if he didnt want to get smacked in the mouth

[Tynskel]

I have said this over and over:
The only way to remove Feel No Pain is through Instant Death, or a codex rule that explicitly denies Feel No Pain.

The Black Mace has neither of these.

[chicop76]

I have said this over and over:
The only way to remove Feel No Pain is through Instant Death, or a codex rule that explicitly denies Feel No Pain.

The Black Mace has neither of these.

Don't you start too. Blace Mace can possibly remove you before Feel no Pain have a chance to go into effect.

[Tynskel]

Don't you start too. Blace Mace can possibly remove you before Feel no Pain have a chance to go into effect.

No it can't. There is nothing in the Black Mace rule that says it overrides Feel No Pain.
Black Mace *must* explicitly state overrides Feel No Pain, or it cannot override.

There is actually no rules conflict here.

[Asuryan]

You have still suffered an unsaved wound, just not the effects of an unsaved wound.

By this logic even if FNP went before the roll for a force weapon and was made then they would still have an "unsaved wound" which would then cause Instant death if the Psyker made their test.

Every time Feugan suffers an unsaved wound his strength goes up by one so he would get this increase even if he passed FNP because he suffered and "unsaved wound".

and Concussive weapons would make them int 1 even thought the model didn't die but took an "unsaved wound".

Bulls**t on all counts but i would like Feugan to run around at str 10 because I'm a bamf at rolling FNP.

[chicop76]

No it can't. There is nothing in the Black Mace rule that says it overrides Feel No Pain.
Black Mace *must* explicitly state overrides Feel No Pain, or it cannot override.

There is actually no rules conflict here.

Let's d this again. Order is reson why Black Mace can negate FNP.

Failed toughness test model is removed. Does it negate FNP? No, if it goes before FnP will FNP go off and make an usaved into a saved wound? No.

If feel no pain go before the toughness test will the toughness test be negated ? Yes

You want FnP to negate a Toughness test even if it goes before or after the effect.

Anyway a tougness test would negate eternal warrior, but you don't see that written anywhere, but it does.

[rle68]

No it can't. There is nothing in the Black Mace rule that says it overrides Feel No Pain.
Black Mace *must* explicitly state overrides Feel No Pain, or it cannot override.

There is actually no rules conflict here.

it can if and only if GW says it does.. then were never gonna hear the end of this

isnt eternal warrior only valid against instant death? if thats the case... id give it to the black mace on that one SINCE THE BLACK MACE ISNT INSTANT DEATH WHICH WOULD NEGATE FNP IF IT WAS BUT IT ISNT

[dreadnoughtguy]

The differance between FNP and Black Mace is that black mace says IMMEDATLY FNP does not. Simple logic dictates that if both work on the condition of a save being failed and a wound being unsaved than the one that states it works IMMEDATLY must go first. Normal operations per the BRB have been suspended in that the codex states that this particular test works IMMEDATLY after a wound is unsaved. It does not happen in the normal turn order because the codex trumps basic rule book. Ergo Black Mace wounds and forces the status test for the direct hit wound and its associated test, and then FNP can happen. We know this because GW has stated that things that state they work IMMEDATLY on an unsaved wound go before FNP thanks to the force weapon FAQ.

Normally per order of operation, tests would come after FNP and would be ignored because they do not have IMMEDATLY explicitly stated in their rule. It is the IMMEDATLY that is the key. The fact that it removes the model on that test is what removes FNP from the chain of events. You can not use FNP when the model has been removed. Since the Black Mace forces a test that can, if failed, remove the model when that test happens matters. Which is just like how when you activate force weapons matters, since they can (not do but can) cause instant death which also disallows FNP. Because of this when you test matters and per the codex you test IMMEDATLY when an unsaved wound has been caused, which is just before you are allowed to FNP to discount such a wound and treat it as being saved.

If it was a normal test vs a statistic than you would be correct that FNP could ignore the remove the model part since FNP would treat the wound as being saved for the purposes of taking that test.

Now the second part of the Black Mace where it affects an area arround the inital target is able to be FNP vs because this is a normal status test that does not have the IMMEDATLY quallifier in it. That is the cruxt of the debate. The use of IMMEDATLY is what the side saying Black Mace trumps FNP say. This is backed up because of othe rulings where the "IMMEDATLY after a wound has been suffered" , has been consistantly stated to happen prior to FNP. Those that do not have the IMMEDATLY in it have been consistantly stated to happen after.

[chicop76]

The differance between FNP and Black Mace is that black mace says IMMEDATLY FNP does not. Simple logic dictates that if both work on the condition of a save being failed and a wound being unsaved than the one that states it works IMMEDATLY must go first. Normal operations per the BRB have been suspended in that the codex states that this particular test works IMMEDATLY after a wound is unsaved. It does not happen in the normal turn order because the codex trumps basic rule book. Ergo Black Mace wounds and forces the status test for the direct hit wound and its associated test, and then FNP can happen. We know this because GW has stated that things that state they work IMMEDATLY on an unsaved wound go before FNP thanks to the force weapon FAQ.

Normally per order of operation, tests would come after FNP and would be ignored because they do not have IMMEDATLY explicitly stated in their rule. It is the IMMEDATLY that is the key. The fact that it removes the model on that test is what removes FNP from the chain of events. You can not use FNP when the model has been removed. Since the Black Mace forces a test that can, if failed, remove the model when that test happens matters. Which is just like how when you activate force weapons matters, since they can (not do but can) cause instant death which also disallows FNP. Because of this when you test matters and per the codex you test IMMEDATLY when an unsaved wound has been caused, which is just before you are allowed to FNP to discount such a wound and treat it as being saved.

If it was a normal test vs a statistic than you would be correct that FNP could ignore the remove the model part since FNP would treat the wound as being saved for the purposes of taking that test.

Now the second part of the Black Mace where it affects an area arround the inital target is able to be FNP vs because this is a normal status test that does not have the IMMEDATLY quallifier in it. That is the cruxt of the debate. The use of IMMEDATLY is what the side saying Black Mace trumps FNP say. This is backed up because of othe rulings where the "IMMEDATLY after a wound has been suffered" , has been consistantly stated to happen prior to FNP. Those that do not have the IMMEDATLY in it have been consistantly stated to happen after.

No!!! Foce Weapons cause instant death and the Black Mace does not. Man my bad I think if you say something enough times it sticks.

Or

The Force Weapon FaQ only applies to Force Weapons. It's not meant as a guide at all.

I endorse the above message. Feel No Pain is faster than light speed which beats immediately lol.

I am going to go through everything that happens when you take a wound. I will have a lot of qoutes. I won't mention some things I should but I will break down the process. I will go step by step via book.

Pg. 7 BRB

This is important when dealing with codex specfic weapons

" Basic rules aply to all models in the game, unless specifically stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale, found between pages 10 and 31. These are all the rules you'll need for your average infantry model.

Advanced rules aply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon( such as a boltgun), unusual skills( such as the ability to regenerate flesh), because they are differant to their fellows( such as a unit leader or a heroirc character), or because they are not normal infantry models( a Bike, a Swarm, or even a Tank). The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in the entry for the unit in their relevant Warhammer 40,000 codex.

Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rule... On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a ruke in this rule book, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence"

In other words if feel on pain conflicts with HexRifle. Hexrifle takes precedence over FNP, if they conflict.

Brb pg 3.

" ... If at any point, a model's strength, toughnes or wounds are reduced to 0, it is removed from play as a casualty"

So if you are reduced to 0 you are removed as a casualty which is the same effect from a failed wounds test from a hexrifle.

Brb pg. 15

L" taking savings throws: first of all, the target unit gets to make one saving throw, if it has one ( see page 16, armour save, invulnerable save, cover save), for each wound being resolved. Make a note how many unsaved wounds have been caused."

Alocate unsaved wounds and remove casualties: ... reduce that model's wounds by 1. If the model is reduced to 0 wounds, remove as a casualty.."

BrB pg. 16

" Instant Death: ... if a model suffers an unsaved Wound from an attack that has a strength value of double it's toughness value or greater( after modifiers), it is reduced to 0 wounds and removed as a casualty..."

BrB pg. 26

" Determine Assault Results: Ote that wounds that have been negated by savings throws or special rules do not count towards determining who won the combat."

BrB pg .35

" When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Feel no Pain roll to avoid being wounded( this is not a savings throw), Roll a d6 for each time an unsaved wound has been suffered. On a 4 or less, you must take the wound as normal. On a 5+, the unsaved wound Wound is discounted- treat as having been saved. Note that Feel no Pain rolls cannot be made against unsaved wounds that inflict Instant Death"

Long story short if it wounds it can be negated unless instant death is involed. The actual wounds test does not cause a wound which will remove the model as a caualty, but Feel no Pain can negate the wound.

Normally you fail save take wound and be removed as a casaulty, which Feel No Pain steps in and negates the wound and changes the unsaved into save.

Now you have the hexrifle. You fail a save, take a wound and remove as a casualty, which Feel No Pain steps in and negates the wound and no worries. Simple as pie right.

No. It's not. You also have a wound test that will cause the model to be removed as well. This falls under advanced rules and can actually remove the model. If I was to not mention the Force Weapon FAQ at all. I would simply say model isn't removed since feel no pain would negate it.

However if you look at Force Weapon FAQ it shows us a weapon with an abilty being used before FNP pain even goes into play.

This tells us that an ability can go off before FNP negate the wound.

Since the Hexrifle is not Force Weapon. However we now have to ask our selfs if the rifle characteristic test goes before fnp, the same time, or after.

I will use Daborder which brings up the obvious that both effects happen at the same time. Which means who's turn it is will be what happens first.

The importance of Hexrifle wound test going before fnp is critical. You have to wound to cause the wound test. Since GW FAQed the Force Weapon we now know that you can have abilities happen before Feel no Pain just simply negates the wound which will negatethe Hexrifle.

Now we ca go ok the wound test can go off before FnP saves the wound. Normally being removed as a casualty is not enough for Fnp to be stopped. However since this is an advanced weapon it will take prescedence and remove the model fromplay.

Felt like adding quotes.

[dreadnoughtguy]

No! The normal order of operations are inturupted because the codex trumps Basic rules and IMMEDATLY happens first. As I said if Hexrifle does not have IMMEDATLY in its rules than it goes after FNP as it is a normal status test which happens at the end of the round. I do not know the rule for Hexrifle and no one has yet posted the rule so I do not know if it has IMMEDATLY in it or not.

I do know that both Black Mace and Force Weapons happen IMMEDATLY after the wound is suffered, WHICH IS BEFORE FNP! Both state that they happen when a wound has occured and the IMMEDATLY tells you that they come into effect before FNP.

And for crying out loud A FORCE WEAPON DOES NOT CAUSE INSTANT DEATH! A activation must happen which happens IMMEDATLY AFTER A WOUND HAS BEEN SUFFERED. That is why you can not FNP vs an ACTIVATED Force Weapon. You can FNP vs an unactivated one, yet more confirmation that IMMEDATLY has meaning in the rule.

**EDIT**
If they contradict themselves in the use of Immedatly with order of activation, then you are correct and it is again a must be FAQ issue. I do not have all the codex so I do not know what it states about the Helrifle as I said before.

[Magpie]

I don't think that you can hinge an argument of the notion that "immediately" is a different point in time to "when", given that the two terms mean the same thing.

[daboarder]

nor can you equivocally state that "status effects" (what are those by the way) happen after FNP due to the BRB having a basic order of operations....mostly because the BRB doesn't have such an order of operations in it, unless of course you can quote the rule.

[Tynskel]

All that can be noted is that the effect takes place after you have an unsaved wound.
There's nothing there preventing Feel No Pain, so you have not fulfilled the entire criteria for 'unsaved wounds', because there is still a possibility of a 'saved wound', which means one has not fulfilled the criteria to activate 'immediately'. So, if you have failed Feel No Pain, you now can activate the 'immediately' statement.


So the correct order of operations is to fulfill all attempts to save the wound, then interrupt the phase if you have unsaved wounds for the 'special rule', then go on with normal turn.

Force Weapons are Unique, because they have the Potential to become Instant Death weapons, which would negate Feel No pain. Thus, Force Weapon Activation occurs before Feel No Pain.

[daboarder]

tynskel, you cannot take FNP when your "removed as a casualty"


its very simple:

If the black mace procs then you don't get a FNP save.

If you pass your FNP you don't get to see if hte black mace procs

These happen at the same time (unsaved wound) therefore the player whose turn it is decides what order they are resolved at.

[chicop76]

I agree. You must roll fnp before you even take a save. Than you roll for your save. If feel no pain negates the wound before the sve than said effect is negated.

Yes I love how you keep saying force weapons have to go first before feel no pain under the assumption it's due to instant death.

[Tynskel]

I agree. You must roll fnp before you even take a save. Than you roll for your save. If feel no pain negates the wound before the sve than said effect is negated.

Yes I love how you keep saying force weapons have to go first before feel no pain under the assumption it's due to instant death.

Yes. Because it is Instant Death. We had this argument happened on this particular forum ~6 months ago, and then the FAQ, as usual, reiterated that Instant Death overrides Feel No Pain. It made no logical sense that an ability B that ignores ability A, to have ability A to go first.

However, in this case, ability C does *not* ignore ability A, and thus ability A goes first, especially since ability A ignores C.


What happens if A ignores D and D ignores A?
Roll off, or player's turn choice, depending on the situation.

[Daemonette666]

OK I notice the immediately, so you have a case for argument.

hex rifle rule is below:

A model that suffers an unsaved wound from a hexrifle must make a characteristic test based on their Wounds value (i.e. the one on their profile, not their current wounds). If they fail the test, they are removed from play with no saves of any kind. Vehicles can not be affected by hexrifles.

So the immediately forces the Black Mace toughness test to be taken before the FNP roll.

I still have a nagging feeling that the FNP roll has the chance to negate the original wound, and treat it as having been saved. In reality FNP needs to come before saves are made, but after wound rolls are made. To do so would create a lot osf arguments and hassles with more FAQs needed because so many things have unsaved wound in their description.

Yuo can only get one Black Mace per Army, but you could get upto 10 hexrifles in a double FOC DE army one for each Haemonculus, and one for each Acothyst (wracks unit commander - elite choice unit). With them having a rang e of 36" X (4+ to wound) AP 4, sniper and assault 1, they pose more of a threat. In the long run. The Black Mace has to be in close combat to work, and can back fire as it is a Daemon Weapon.