Bolter = Boltgun question

[Blackcloud6]

There is a rules dispute going on between two guys in my group. Part of resolving it hinges on the term "bolter." A bolter is a boltgun, correct? But where in the rules or codex does this say so?

[Wolfshade]

A bolter is a boltgun as you suspect, but I have no idea where that says that

[Wildeybeast]

It is and it isn't. P56 of BRB lists profiles for bolt pistols, boltguns, storm bolters, heavy bolters and vulcan mega-bolters. As far as the rules are concerned, there is no such thing as a 'bolter', only the variants listed. However, the fluff refers to boltguns as bolters; the two terms are interchangeable. The codex entry for boltguns on p97 makes this very clear. So a storm bolter is also a storm boltgun and so on.
It really depends what the debate is about. If you want a weapon profile for a bolter, it technically doesn't exist, but a boltgun is a bolter in reality. It depends on how far you want to take the fluff entries as rules.

[Nabterayl]

Is this about combi-weapons and/or special-issue ammunition?

[DarkLink]

Or the DA bolter banner? Specific questions are much easier to answer.

[Blackcloud6]

Is this about combi-weapons and/or special-issue ammunition?.

No it is about the Land Raider Crusader's Hurricane Bolter and if it a rapid fire weapon.

[Nabterayl]

Ah, yes. That is indeed bad wording, but yes ... when the codex says that a hurricane bolter consists of three twin-linked bolters, it means three twin-linked boltguns.

It's true that, if you want to get technical, you have to get there in a stupid, round-about way. There are three sources for the proposition that "bolter = boltgun." One is page 97 of the codex, which says, "The boltgun, or bolter ..." Page 56 of the main rulebook repeats that exact phrase.

More tellingly, under combi-weapons, page 56 of the rulebook states, "A model armed with a combi-weapon can choose to fire either the primary boltgun, or the secondary weapon. The bolter can be fired every turn, but the secondary weapon can only be fired once per battle" (emphasis added). There is no way to interpret this other than to read "bolter" as the same item as the "boltgun" referred to in the previous sentence.

To come at the problem from the other angle, if we don't accept that bolter = boltgun, we are left with a hurricane bolter consisting of three twin-linked weapons for which we have no profile. That is, I think most people would agree, less plausible than the bolter = boltgun proposition. This would be sufficient, if it had to be, but I think the combi-weapon section of page 56 is quite clear.

So yes: bolter = boltgun, and therefore a hurricane bolter is a rapid fire weapon.

EDIT: Or, technically, a hurricane bolter is a single weapon that consists of three twin-linked rapid fire weapons. It fires three twin-linked shots up to 24", or six twin-linked shots up to 12".

[DarkLink]

Alternatively, if you assume that bolters aren't boltguns, then Hurricane Bolters don't have a profile at all and can't fire. Reductio ad absurdum.

[SeattleDV8]

Point your friends to the DA FAQ
Q: The Standard of Devastation states that ‘all friendly Codex:
Dark Angels units within 6” of the standard treat their boltguns as
Salvo 2/4 weapons’. Which boltguns does this apply to? (p66)
A: This applies to the standard boltgun (24” range, S4, AP5,
Rapid Fire), twin-linked boltguns on bikes, the bolter
component of combi-weapons, and hurricane bolters.

[Wildcard]

So, does that mean that a Land Raider Crusader fires 4x3 twin linked shots per sponson? And that if they shoot at the same target it will be 24 shots up to 24" O_o

Also, if the standard of devastation bearer is in LR Crusader, is the range measured from the hull of the LR, or does the banner require model to be on the table for the banner to work? I mean, a group of three LR Crusaders with total of 72 tl bolter shots plus the assault cannons from all three will decimate pretty much all infantry formations there are, given that they are on range ofc.

[Nabterayl]

So, does that mean that a Land Raider Crusader fires 4x3 twin linked shots per sponson? And that if they shoot at the same target it will be 24 shots up to 24" O_o

Also, if the standard of devastation bearer is in LR Crusader, is the range measured from the hull of the LR, or does the banner require model to be on the table for the banner to work? I mean, a group of three LR Crusaders with total of 72 tl bolter shots plus the assault cannons from all three will decimate pretty much all infantry formations there are, given that they are on range ofc.
Yes, you've got that all right as I read it.

[spaceman91]

So, does that mean that a Land Raider Crusader fires 4x3 twin linked shots per sponson? And that if they shoot at the same target it will be 24 shots up to 24" O_o

Also, if the standard of devastation bearer is in LR Crusader, is the range measured from the hull of the LR, or does the banner require model to be on the table for the banner to work? I mean, a group of three LR Crusaders with total of 72 tl bolter shots plus the assault cannons from all three will decimate pretty much all infantry formations there are, given that they are on range ofc.

I may be reading that wrong but it would fire ( one sponson ) 6 shots at 12" or 3 shots at 24" both are twin linked, not 24 shots at 24" from both.

Edit: two sponsons on a LRC. each is 3 bolters. so it works just like firering 6 guys on foot except that each bolter is twin linked. If that makes sense.

[Tynskel]

So, does that mean that a Land Raider Crusader fires 4x3 twin linked shots per sponson? And that if they shoot at the same target it will be 24 shots up to 24" O_o

Also, if the standard of devastation bearer is in LR Crusader, is the range measured from the hull of the LR, or does the banner require model to be on the table for the banner to work? I mean, a group of three LR Crusaders with total of 72 tl bolter shots plus the assault cannons from all three will decimate pretty much all infantry formations there are, given that they are on range ofc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZeYVIWz99I

[Blackcloud6]

Point your friends to the DA FAQ

Thanks. I looked in the FAQ yesterday and didn't find this. I must have overlooked it. Can you point me to it please?

[Blackcloud6]

Also, if the standard of devastation bearer is in LR Crusader, is the range measured from the hull of the LR, or does the banner require model to be on the table for the banner to work?

Wouldn't range for the shot be measured form the barrel of the weapon?

[Houghten]

Not the range for the shot, the range of the banner's effect.

[Blackcloud6]

Not the range for the shot, the range of the banner's effect.

Ah, OK.

[SeattleDV8]

Thanks. I looked in the FAQ yesterday and didn't find this. I must have overlooked it. Can you point me to it please?The main FAQ page http://http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?pageMode=multi&categoryId=1000018&pIndex=1&aId=3400019&start=2 (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?pageMode=multi&categoryId=1000018&pIndex=1&aId=3400019&start=2) and the DA FAQ http://http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3180051a_Dark_Angels_v1.1A_APRIL13.pdf (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3180051a_Dark_Angels_v1.1A_APRIL13.pdf)

Spaceman91; Bolters in a DA army within range of a Banner of Devastation gain Salvo 2/4 , so 4 shots per gun.
A normal hurricane bolter is as you describe.

[Blackcloud6]

The main FAQ page http://http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?pageMode=multi&categoryId=1000018&pIndex=1&aId=3400019&start=2 (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?pageMode=multi&categoryId=1000018&pIndex=1&aId=3400019&start=2) and the DA FAQ http://http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3180051a_Dark_Angels_v1.1A_APRIL13.pdf (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3180051a_Dark_Angels_v1.1A_APRIL13.pdf)

Spaceman91; Bolters in a DA army within range of a Banner of Devastation gain Salvo 2/4 , so 4 shots per gun.
A normal hurricane bolter is as you describe.

Thank, I looked in the Space Marine and Main Rulebook FAQs, I didn't think to look in the DA one as the question came up over a Grey Knights unit that had a Hurricane Bolter.

[Boscolamb]

Thank, I looked in the Space Marine and Main Rulebook FAQs, I didn't think to look in the DA one as the question came up over a Grey Knights unit that had a Hurricane Bolter.

And said rules for Hurricane Bolter are inconveniently omitted from the Grey Knights Codex and FAQ Updates. Both my Stormraven and Land Raider Crusader have side sponsons of such.

[Nabterayl]

I may be reading that wrong but it would fire ( one sponson ) 6 shots at 12" or 3 shots at 24" both are twin linked, not 24 shots at 24" from both.

Edit: two sponsons on a LRC. each is 3 bolters. so it works just like firering 6 guys on foot except that each bolter is twin linked. If that makes sense.
In the case of a vehicle, it doesn't matter. Remember that the second number for a salvo weapon is how many shots you get, at full range, if you haven't moved:


If the model has not moved, it can instead fire a greater number of shots at a target up to the weapon's maximum range. In this case, the number of shots is equal to the second number. (p. 52)

Vehicles are always Relentless (page 71, "Vehicles always have the Relentless special rule"), and:


Relentless models can shoot with Heavy, Salvo or Ordnance weapons, countlng as stationary even if they moved in the previous Movement phase (p. 41).

So in the case of hurricane bolter on a vehicle, it's always 12 twin-linked shots per sponson up to 24". On a non-Relentless model it would be different, but as far as I know there is no way currently to have a hurricane bolter on anything except a vehicle, which are always Relentless.

Not that I don't want to see, like, a master of the forge with a pair of hurricane bolters on his servo-harness :)

[Wildcard]

Not that I don't want to see, like, a master of the forge with a pair of hurricane bolters on his servo-harness

More Hurricaneish weapon systems would be welcome. I once did a backround story for a campaign for a remnants of an imperial guard regiment, that were so completely overrun that only a small force of ragtag units remained. The story arc revolved around a techpriest who with the help of some mechanics salvaged stuff from the battlefield and crafted them into makeshift weaponry.

One of the pinnacle moments for this ragtag platoon was when they encountered a place where a full squad of stormtroopers were slaughtered and they were able to recover hellguns/hotshot lasguns, and thus create a weapon system that basically followed the rules for hurricane weapon system, but it only used 18" s3 ap3 rapidfire -profile. And that was then mounted on a Sentinel iirc.

[Blackcloud6]

So in the case of hurricane bolter on a vehicle, it's always 12 twin-linked shots per sponson up to 24".

How so?

It should be, per sponson, 6 TL shots up to 12" in range and 3 from 12" to 24" in range.

[DarkLink]

Bolter Banner. Heavy 4. 4x3=12. 12 shots per sponson.

[Blackcloud6]

Bolter Banner. Heavy 4. 4x3=12. 12 shots per sponson.

But without the Banner, it would be as I stated. I think we are getting some things confused in this thread :confused: :)

[DarkLink]

He was explicitly referring to the Banner. That's the whole point of that post, that with the Banner a LR Crusader always gets 12 shots per sponson out to 24".