Warp Storm created Herald getting Psychic Powers? y/n

[JMichael]

When the Storm kills one of my Psykers and a Herald appears (a roll of 11), does that Herald get a psychic power (as we are well past the 'generate Psychic Powers' step)?
It does state that the generated unit gets no upgrades...but a Psychic Power roll (or even just the Primaris)?

[Nabterayl]

Most heralds have to buy a mastery level as an upgrade anyway, so definitely no for them. I think the answer is still no for heralds of Tzeentch. Even though the herald is a mastery level 1 psyker by default, as you say, we are past the generate psychic powers step.

I'd allow it, but I don't think it's in the rules.

[jifel]

I would say that the Herald has to roll on the table if it comes with Psychic powers. So a HoT who arrives like this could roll, or at least that is how I'd play it.

[JMichael]

I encountered this recently and my opponent took Psychic Shriek and killed off several Wraithguard. This random roll on the Warp Storm table in turn 1 (he went first) killed my Farseer/Warlord and 3/5 of Wraithguard. It was a crushing blow, all before I could even react.

[Nabterayl]

I will say that, if you can't roll for a Herald of Tzeentch, there's basically no reason to ever manifest one even though you get the choice.

Either way, there's no way that Herald of Tzeentch should have gotten Psychic Shriek. Change and Divination only for HoTs.

[Magpie]

I'd say that rolling for psychic powers is not an upgrade and that the units generated by the warp storm are treated like normal units, you would have to be allowed to generate psychic powers for the Herald.

[isotope99]

I'd give just the Tzeentch Primaris personally, that result is nasty enough already

[Xenith]

I think the answer is still no for heralds of Tzeentch. Even though the herald is a mastery level 1 psyker by default, as you say, we are past the generate psychic powers step.

I'd allow it, but I don't think it's in the rules.

Scrolls of Magnus lets you generate new powers, so there are no restrictions on timing of generating new ones. If a ML1 psyker gets created, then he should have one power.

[Nabterayl]

Hmmm ... I think I accept that as a closer precedent than the bare pre-game setup order. Still no way I can see for a Herald of Tzeentch gets Psychic Shriek, though, JMichael. Might want to remind your opponent which disciplines HoTs get access to.

[hisdudeness]

Here's the problem. When does the rules tell us to generate psychic powers? Answer: After determining warlord traits and before deploying forces. Does a created Herald list rules changing this?

For sake of "the Herald can", I would say it gets a random primaris power from one of the two disciplines. Or randomly 'keep' one of the replaced psykers powers.

[JMichael]

Hmmm ... I think I accept that as a closer precedent than the bare pre-game setup order. Still no way I can see for a Herald of Tzeentch gets Psychic Shriek, though, JMichael. Might want to remind your opponent which disciplines HoTs get access to.

My bad. It was not Psychic Shriek, but the Tzeentch Primaris Power. It was his Keeper of Naughty Secrets that had the Shriek.

[Daemonette666]

Scrolls of Magnus lets you generate new powers, so there are no restrictions on timing of generating new ones. If a ML1 psyker gets created, then he should have one power.

How do you acquire a Scroll of Magnus after the game has begun? I thought they were purchased as an Upgrade When you designed the army, and then you rolled for the psychic power when all the others were being rolled - at the start of the game?

I would not allow the upgrade, unless all you had was a Tzeentch herald, and then in a friendly game, I would let you use the Primaris power (level 1 psyker).

[Magpie]

The Scroll of Magnus allows you to generate new powers during the game mate.

You buy it as part of your army but use it during the game at the start of each turn.

[Lord Krungharr]

The generation of a psychic power by a model that has Mastery Level 1 included in its profile is NOT an upgrade, it is something included in his profile/stats/standard loadout. So if the lucky Warp Storm roll is obtained and successful in generating the Herald, and the Daemons player chooses a Herald of Tzeentch, they Herald rolls on either Divination or Tzeentch tables for 1 power. Mastery 1 means the psyker must have 1 power.

[hisdudeness]

But where are we told to roll for a power? Where are we told a Mastery 1 psyker has to have a power?

[DWest]

BRB, Page 66: "Unless otherwise stated, a Psyker knows a number of psychic powers equal to its' Mastery Level."
BRB, Page 142: "Before either player deploys their army, you must generate psychic powers for your Psykers."

I think, under the strictest reading, the HoT doesn't get a power, with the 'you must' clause on 142 being an 'otherwise stated' type of condition for 66. However, I could possibly see rolling a power at the start for the as-yet nonexistent Herald, with the caveat that since you rolled for it, you've effectively already chosen your Herald, and so the first 11 you roll *must* spawn that HoT with the chosen power.

[Magpie]

I think a far simpler method is to realise that as the Herald doesn't exist before deployment of both armies you can simply roll for his power prior to his deployment.

[hisdudeness]

BRB, Page 66: "Unless otherwise stated, a Psyker knows a number of psychic powers equal to its' Mastery Level."
BRB, Page 142: "Before either player deploys their army, you must generate psychic powers for your Psykers."

I think, under the strictest reading, the HoT doesn't get a power, with the 'you must' clause on 142 being an 'otherwise stated' type of condition for 66. However, I could possibly see rolling a power at the start for the as-yet nonexistent Herald, with the caveat that since you rolled for it, you've effectively already chosen your Herald, and so the first 11 you roll *must* spawn that HoT with the chosen power.

But now you just made a rule to facilitate the resolution of another vague rule.

I still believe the simplest solution that has the least impact is that the Herald player will randomly roll for a discipline and get the primarus power of that discipline.

As far as the quoted pages…both have qualifiers. “Unless otherwise stated…” and “Before either player deploys…” both limit the following rules. The lack of “Do X for a created HoT” can be seen as a statement that nothing happens when it’s created. “Before deployment” easily limits the “must” of the rule.

[chicop76]

If it wasn't for the scroll of magus I can see not being able to roll for abilities. Due to the scroll it shows you can still generate powers outside of deployment.

The problem here is you are a master 1 psyker, so you must have a power. Any start of movement phase powers is debateable if you can use them or not, but shooting phase powers can be used after deepstrike.

[hisdudeness]

But the Scroll is a specific item that allows you to generate powers outside of the normal rules. While it does show there is a instance of exception to the rules, it does not prove you can just generate powers whenever we feel like, some has to tell us to generate powers outside to the norm. As far as I can tell, the warp storm rules do not do this.

[Magpie]

This is 40k. There is no proof

In all cases of doubt we look to Page 4

"Nobody wants to waste valuable gaming time arguing, so be prepared to interpret a rule or come up with a suitable solution for yourselves"

One of the main tools for finding this solution is precedent. "It works like this in this situation which is similar so how about we play it that way"