Sneaky SM and Thunderfire Cannon

[steeldragon]

Some doubts after facing a SM last week...

Can I add ICs to Artillery Units?
If I add an Elite FOC Techmarine with servo harness it will count, for wound allocation in the shooting phase, as the same model than the techmarine gunner?

Thanks. Sorry if this was asked before, my search-fu is not the strongest...

Andres

[Culven]

Yes, ICs can join Artillary units. If the IC which joins the unit is identical in game terms to the Techmarine manning the Gun, then it will be part of the same group as the Techmarine when Saves are attempted. Remember, wounds on the unit are allocated to models, Saves are attempted by groups of idential models, and wounds are applied with casualties removed from the group.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

p. 55 "Independent characters that join the unit, however, do not count as crew and cannot operate the guns."

[Cryl]

p. 55 "Independent characters that join the unit, however, do not count as crew and cannot operate the guns."

so if the original gunner was to die the gun would also be removed or would it remain but be unable to fire?

[Nabterayl]

The gun would remain, but be unable to fire.
EDIT: Whoops! Should've looked that one up. Tiberius Jackhammer is right; the gun would go away.

It's not 100% clear to me whether a regular techmarine is the same as a techmarine gunner, though. To count as identical, models must have the same stats, wargear, and special rules. The techmarine gunner "does not benefit from" the Blessing of the Omnissiah and Independent Character rules unless and until his gun is destroyed, whereas the regular techmarine benefits from both all the time.

If I were playing a space marine player who wanted to do this, I think I'd allow it, on the theory that it's less like the techmarine gunner gains those rules when his gun dies and more like he has them all the time, but can't use them unless the gun is destroyed. I also find it probative that the statline for the "techmarine gunner" actually just says "techmarine" - i.e., he is a techmarine who happens to be manning a gun, rather than having the official unit type "techmarine gunner." It's something I'd clear up with my opponent beforehand, though, if I saw a thunderfire cannon and a regular techmarine in his list.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

I don't think so: "If all the crewman models are killed, the guns are immediately removed as well." Since the ind. techmarine doesn't count as crew, the gun would be removed. This still doesn't answer if the two are identical for wound allocation, though. They are technically identical, but you could argue that one is "crew" and one is not crew, thus making them different. Pretty gray area.

[fuzzbuket]

competivly id say no but its fluffy so i'd say yes!

[Duke]

after reading it I would allow it in a friendly game, but probably not in a tournament game. The reasons are this: In friendlies a gray area ruling doesn't make much of a difference because nothing is riding on the win. In a tournie a lot is riding on a win (and not only that, but the margin of the win.) I do like Nabs logic about how he always has the rule but can't use them.

now this is based on wound allocation only, not on 'can he use it as well,'

Duke

[Culven]

I am assuming that the goal of this tactic was to provide a model which can take a wound that would have normally been on the gunner. After Techmarine Redshirt takes one for the team, the gun would still have a crew and could contine to fire.

[steeldragon]

The idea is to basically remove the other Techmarine and keep the gunner... saving with 2+, 3+ cover save can be difficcult to put more than one wound...

Should I ask for a faq or something?

Andres

[Culven]

If the IC Techmarine is identical in game terms, then it will be part of the same group as the gunner during wound allocation. As long as the group doesn't suffer too many wounds, they can be applied to the IC and will protect the gunner. The only thing that may need to be addressed is whether they are identical since the gunner has a rule that prevents him from using his Techmarine abilities.

[Nabterayl]

Also to be addressed is whether the gunner's status as "crew" makes him non-identical. It isn't a "special rule" (it's not like he has "Crew" listed in his FoC entry) per se, but it does let him do something the IC techmarine can't do.

While acknowledging that this is a gray area, my inclination, as an opponent, would be to count the IC techmarine and the techmarine gunner as "identical" for wound allocation/save rolling purposes, on the theory that page 25 says "special rules" (as opposed to just "rules") and the FoC entries in the SM codex have a specific section labeled "special rules." Granted those sections aren't identical, but if the gun were ever destroyed, they would become identical, and I think the long-form entry on page 73 of the codex indicates that the techmarine gunner really isn't gaining any new rules. That's my analysis, anyway.

[AirHorse]

Having just read the rules for artillery units it seems that the rules themselves are actually quite inadequate and require a bit of RAI to operate in a reasonable manner. Also, all this only applies to shooting, close combat rules are pretty hole free :P.

If you read it exactly as its written if an artillery unit is shot at then you roll a d6, 1-4 it hits a gun, 5-6 it hits a crewman. It doesnt tell you what happens when there are no guns left. Does it cease to be an artillery unit? RAI would say yes, but as far as I can see according to the rules it is still an artillery unit. Does this mean then that you continue to roll that d6 and only on a 5-6 can it hurt a crewman? Common sense would say that there is no roll required now but not the rules :/. This is pretty poorly written tbh.

If you now look at the independant character rules, and in particular the example of an otherwise identical techmarine joining a thunderfire cannon. Firstly, the indepedant character that joins the unit is not classed as crew, so the techmarine couldnt operate the gun. Secondly, if the unit is shot at the d6 roll doesnt inculde the independant character, so it seems to me that he also cant absorb wounds that might threaten your precious cannon. Also, does this mean that even with the guns gone he cant take wounds till hes alone again as wounds must go to crewmen? In melee obviously independant character rules overrule this, but for shooting its kind of interesting.

This seems a bit weird and perhaps i am missing something but as far as I can see there is a massive hole in the rules here. It seems that if you had an orc big guns mob that lost all its guns you could use it as a nice shield for shooting to keep your mek/warboss safe as even if a unit unloaded one hundred shots at it they would all get allocated on the crewmen :/.

Now like I said at the start, it seems like a nice chunk of RAI is required for artillery units, I think they should just cease to be artillery once the guns are down, but the only example of this happening that I can see is the special case of the techmarine with a thunderfire cannon, where it specifically tells you hes no longer an artillery unit but an independant character once the gun goes down.

[Culven]

Granted those sections aren't identical, but if the gun were ever destroyed, they would become identical, and I think the long-form entry on page 73 of the codex indicates that the techmarine gunner really isn't gaining any new rules. That's my analysis, anyway.
What if we reversed the situation and provided an example where two models began identical and then changed during game play so that one no longer had an ability? When would they count as identical? For examples of this, one can look at a Sentinel squad where each has the same gun and a Hunter-Killer missile or two models with Combi-whatevers. If only one model fires its HK Missile or whatever component, are the models still identical? Are they still armed with the same weapons, they are just unable to fire one of them again?

[therealjohnny5]

What if we reversed the situation and provided an example where two models began identical and then changed during game play so that one no longer had an ability? When would they count as identical? For examples of this, one can look at a Sentinel squad where each has the same gun and a Hunter-Killer missile or two models with Combi-whatevers. If only one model fires its HK Missile or whatever component, are the models still identical? Are they still armed with the same weapons, they are just unable to fire one of them again?

No they would be different bc their weapons have changed.


The idea is to basically remove the other Techmarine and keep the gunner... saving with 2+, 3+ cover save can be difficcult to put more than one wound...

Should I ask for a faq or something?

Andres

If i understand you correctly you are looking for more wound allocation to protect your Tech Gunner right? If so then just take a servitor squad with the TF Cannon gunner. Every Techmarine can take a squad, they are cheaper and it gives you extra fire if you equip some with HB or MM.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

If i understand you correctly you are looking for more wound allocation to protect your Tech Gunner right? If so then just take a servitor squad with the TF Cannon gunner. Every Techmarine can take a squad, they are cheaper and it gives you extra fire if you equip some with HB or MM.

The servitors are a squad that's bought separately from the techmarines. Since the techmarine gunner does not have "Independent Character" while manning the gun, he cannot be joined to a group of servitors.

[therealjohnny5]

fair enough, i'll give you that one...somehow many GW red shirts believe this to be true...hmm...maybe it's a conspiracy. How about this, Take the servitor squad and place them beside the TF Techie and use the "dirty trick" methodology being discussed in the general discussion area of the forum and take advantage of your opponents ignorance. Thats completely legit....(please recognize the sarcasm)

[Dragonstriker]

No they would be different bc their weapons have changed.


I'd take issue with that. Firing a HK missile doesn't change the weapons the model is armed with. It is armed with an HK missile launcher, which is now out of ammo. I paid identical points for the models, so they damn well are armed identically.

In a unit of multi-wound models is a model no longer identical to his fellows once he takes a wound, for wound allocation purposes?

[therealjohnny5]

I'd take issue with that. Firing a HK missile doesn't change the weapons the model is armed with. It is armed with an HK missile launcher, which is now out of ammo. I paid identical points for the models, so they damn well are armed identically.

In a unit of multi-wound models is a model no longer identical to his fellows once he takes a wound, for wound allocation purposes?

Alright i haven't admittedly sat and reread the manual bc i've been busy, however as i understand wound allocation it is based on any difference between models in a unit, stat, equipment, etc. So if you fire for instance a Combi Melta, and its single shot is expired that model now has a bolter in function terms, so therefore he is equipped differently from the others (assuming our hypothetical unit all has combi-meltas:)) or like wise any other one shot that might change it.

The problem, as i can tell, is that when it comes to wound allocation rolls, say out of our ten man squad of Sternguard with all Combi-meltas, you roll for 3 wounds, 2 save, you have one wound, who are you going to take out? The one who already shot his melta. Now you've taken advantage of a change in war gear to benefit your unit and your self. I mean come on that's what anyone with some sense would do. Why hang onto a single bolter guy when you can keep a combi instead?

Instead to be fare about that and apply the wounds accordingly (again as i understand it) you could put one wound on the bolter and the other two on the combi's then roll saves.

As for the multi-wound question, no if everyone in the unit is the same they still roll wounds together obviously, however multi wound units have their own special rules for removing entire models when possible. Hence that irritating practice of making every Nob or Warrior have different gear so you can cheese on the wound allocation...legit tactic.

Am i making sense or should i go flush my head in the toilet once or twice?