Warp Storm made me cry

[JMichael]

Final round of a 1500pt tournament yesterday vs Daemons.
My Eldar were stomping all comers...until the Warp Storm hit.
Turn 1 My Farseer was turned into a Herald (and I had rolled the my perfect combo of powers)!
Turn 5 my Crimson Hunter was vaporized (this cost me the game as it probably could've killed the 2 Pink Horrors on the Objective).

Honestly a super fun game, but having a random table take out my Warlord in turn 1 and my Flyer the turn after it came in is no fun.
Not *****ing, just whining a bit!

Share your good or bad stories (especially stories of Daemons being hurt badly by the Warp Storm!)

[DarkLink]

So Goatboy plays Daemons, right? I heard second-hand that one game at Wargames Con, I think, he comes up against Necrons. Turn 1, rolls for Warp Storm. Boom. 3 dead Annihilation Barges. Game over before it even started, not because of any degree of skill on the part of either player, or because one had a good/bad list, or anything like that. Someone just rolled a couple of 6's and it decided the game. That is terrible game design.

The Daemons codex is a trainwreck. It's stupidly complex. I've read the codex, and I don't know what's going on with just about anything. I've heard people say they hate playing them just because they don't ever know what's going on. 'Oh, I shoot at you, so on a 4+ you take a leadership test, and if you pass you get FNP but if you fail each model takes an Initiative test, and each model that fails takes D3 wounds, but each model that passes also gains Rage'. 'WTF?' It's so random that you don't play Daemons, Daemons play you.

I had though that Vetock had written it, and so I'd decided he was a terrible writer. Then I found out it was Phil Kelly, and for some reason I wasn't surprised. Phil Kelly is vastly overrated when it comes to rules.

[Demonus]

Yep PK is 1 for 3 when it comes to Codexes(codecii) so far IMHO. Maybe a 1.5 as CSM isnt horrible, it is just super bland.

[Defenestratus]

Yep PK is 1 for 3 when it comes to Codexes(codecii) so far IMHO. Maybe a 1.5 as CSM isnt horrible, it is just super bland.

Curious to think what you consider the 1 good one?

Certainly not Eldar. Its passable, a solid C+ but by far less than what it could have been.

[JMichael]

They really should make a Daemonic Rewards card set. With all the rolling he had to do including the Psychic Powers it cut into our round by several minutes to the setup. And how am I, as the opponent, supposed to remember all that.
I could see a dishonest player abusing that (not the case in my group, luckily).

[magickbk]

Daemons as a full codex in 40k drives me nuts. I was fine with it back in the day when it was a variant list of C:CSM, but it just operates so far outside the bounds of the standard rules. I've never purchased any version of a Daemon codex, and I don't suppose I ever will. I thought the 3rd edition handling of summoning them from icons and such worked well, and felt that the only extra they needed was maybe making a daemon engine be able to summon them or having a webway portal style item to create a summoning point would be enough to make them more reliable. Maybe a daemon prince gift could adjust reserve rolls for daemonic units. I'd rather run face first into Tau with no armor on than have to work out a game full of daemonic randomifity.

[DarkLink]

Curious to think what you consider the 1 good one?

Certainly not Eldar. Its passable, a solid C+ but by far less than what it could have been.

Out of all of his armies, the only one with truly good balance is DE. I think Eldar get a solid B, actually, once everything levels out they're a solid codex with pretty good variety of builds, but just like so many of Phil Kelly's other books, there are units that are obviously awesome (Wave Serpents) and units that are obviously crap (Banshees). There is a lot in the Eldar codex that's more powerful than it looks when you play smart (the Wraithknight is frikin' awesome, if you know what you're doing with it, but apparently a lot of people don't). So he's put out one top quality codex, a few middle level ones, and a bunch of poorly balanced books. Not a great record.

[GrauGeist]

IMO, Warp Storm is kinda dumb simply because the effects are too wide-ranging and gamebreaking, particularly as Daemons can pre-mitigate the downsides, but the opponent's can't. The net result is a higher-than average number of random "go, me" / "I win" results.

And of course it's yet another intrusive table that needs to be processed every freakin' turn.

[GrauGeist]

Certainly not Eldar. Its passable, a solid C+ but by far less than what it could have been.

IMO, the Eldar book is merely average, so I'd give it a straight C. Things like Banshees being completely useless units (and known to be useless going in) mean that PK phoned it in, rather than actually designing the unit to actually do something specific on the battlefield.

OTOH, had Banshees merely been narrowly effective (e.g. AP2) or specifically functional (treat Serpents as having Assault Ramps), Banshees could have functioned as a hard counter or tactical specialists of some sort.

As it is, Kelly continues to demonstrate his love for Dragons, while not really wanting Eldar to fight close-in, as they were famed in 2E.

[el_tigre]

Surprised we haven't seen a T.O. just straight up ban the table for a tournament, even just to guage the players' response. I get that the Warpstorm table is a part of the dex and thus part of the rules for daemons, but including something so completely detatched from either player's control in what is essentially meant to be a contest of skill and on-table intelligence just seems rediculous. Besides, if the Warpstorm table truly favours neither player in the long run then removing it shouldn't be an issue at all, no benifit/detriment to the deamon player overall.

[Demonus]

Curious to think what you consider the 1 good one?

Certainly not Eldar. Its passable, a solid C+ but by far less than what it could have been.

I gave it a B, with Daemons and CSM receiving Cs at best. While Eldar COULD have been very good, it is acceptable as far as 6e goes. It seems like every codex, barring maybe Tau, is getting the tone down. Not looking forward to SW, Necrons or GK honestly.

[DarkLink]

Besides, if the Warpstorm table truly favours neither player in the long run then removing it shouldn't be an issue at all, no benifit/detriment to the deamon player overall.

That's not why it's terrible game design. It's bad because you're not playing the game, you're just rolling dice and watching what happens with no decisions to be made. If my opponent and I can set up a game, and then turn 1 I roll some 6's and he effectively auto-loses (or vise versa and I lose) before either player actually does anything other than resolving some bookkeeping, that's terrible game design.

[GrauGeist]

Yup, agree with DarkLink. The issue is that the biggest effects have zero tactics or strategy involved. Board and unit position is completely irrelevant.

Consider this
2 (12) - Player selects Daemonic one unit, and it re-rolls all successful (failed) Hits, Wound, and Saves (+++).
3/4/10/11 - Player selects one Daemonic Marked unit, it re-rolls all successful Wounds and Saves (- -).
5/6/8/9 - Player selects one Daemonic Marked unit, and it re-rolls all failed Saves (+).

This table still plays the game, and focuses only on the Daemons. Effects are graduated by rarity and basically symmetric. And it doesn't affect the Opponent directly. No catastrophic results.

[chicop76]

I played a lot of games with the table and can say the negative effects is rarely game winning effects.

2-4 rolls suck hard for the Daemon player. I admit I roll snake eyes a lot, but 2 rarely is devestating on my part. I luck up and pass most my rolls losing 1-2 daemons and taking a few wounds on my big guys.

3 completly sucks since it can kill a random character on your side, unless someone else plays daemons. Than it can equally hurt the other player.

4 is the worst one in my opinion. Army wide -1 to invulnerable saves. All my guys now have a +6 invulnerable. True names does help, but not much.

5-9 hurts both players, honestly it hurts the opponent. It helps against guard a lot. 20 units those 6s start causing havoc on all those units. Got to love d6 strength 4 ap 3 that ignores cover and is poison, or strength 6 with rending.

Now I think 10-12 is a bit much. 11 is pretty over the top, if you fight against a psychic. If no psychic on the board 11 is a waste. No one in my area plays psychics hardly ;(.

#10 is boss. +4 invulnerable saves for daemons army wide. Yeah that's awesome.

#12 one day I will get this. Out of 20 game I never got this. However I do get it as an exalted trait. Which is awesome. I can than spawn 2d6+3 more daemons! Hell yeah. Got this in two games and it is a game changer.

I am surprised no one complains that with insability it' possible for the unit to get all their wounds back, and possible to lose the whole squad. Never had this happen yet.

This is one of many reasons to take Fateweaver. With Fateweaver I tend to get the +1 to invulnerable a lot. It is a game changer to have +2 invulnerable save on daemonettes or hounds especially when they are squads of 20. I think this is wayyy to much. Especailly when +2 invulnerable saving daemonettes have invisibility, feel no pain, re rooll to hit, and the herald can target out anyone in a challenge and they have to accept. They can have a lot more buffs easy. I really can't see anything beating a fully buff squad of nettes with hearld. I had one such squad kill 30 plague marines, 10 khorne berserkers, and khorne himsef, and a Bloodthirster. I only had 6 left with herald and the only squad I lost was my pink horrors with herald. Got to love relic missions.

Pre game set up takes a long time. Here is why.

Fateweaver rolls on 4 powers
Slannech herald 2 rewards 2 powers /8
Horror Herald 3 powers/ 1 reward /12
Nurgle herald 1 reward/ 2 powers/ 15
Khorne Herald 1 rewars / 16
Aluress 2 rewards / 18
Aluress 2 rewards / 20
Tzeentch Prince 3 biomancy 3 rewards/ 26
Tzeentch Prince 3 biomancy 3 rewards/ 32

That is possible in 1850 and that's 32 differant abilities you can roll on before the game

This is where daemons shine a lot. Like 2 of the lesser rewards are ranged attacks. 1 is a heavy flamer and the other is a strength 8 attack. For greater you can get a strength 8 lance shot.

In other words I can roll to add several strength 8 shots to deal with tanks or so heavy flamers for swarm. Fighting a lot of terminators I can take ap 2 master crafted power weapons.

Even though it's random it is like going oh I need flamers let me take those, oh I need anti tank let me take that and so forth..

The only thing I seen my table do is hate on guard. I instant killed 3 heavy weapon lascannon team and 2 heavy weapon it was bad for me since I could assault them thanks to the table and it left my squad in the open.

Besides killing like 6 extra guys a game it is not that helpful.

The main thing is the +4 invulnerable saves.

With all that being said Daemons isn't Tau. It's not an easy win. You take losses you feel it. What makes them good is the fact they have access to 8 differant psychic power trees and 3 differant reward trees, and warp storm table.

It's hard for opponents to play against daemons since the same list can actually change every single game.

[DrLove42]

I played a Khorne deamon guy in the first round of a tournie once.

He rolled a free unit 3 times in 5 turns. The other two were hits on units. I got hit a few times, he never did.

I feel if the warpstorm table wasn't present i'd have had a chance in that game.

[mathhammer]

lets see,
random table check
both sides like/dislike check
Does weird things to both armies check

I got to say the table is doing a good job of representing the whims of chaos and how it effects battles in the fluff.

I could agree there should be some tweaking, but loosing an IC is not that different from a ID weapon shooting my swarmlord on the first turn. (Dark Eldar wargear). I find the table to be fun and chaotic and i just play through it. It also seems that points were spent by the higher cost of demons to have that table.

My 1.5 cents worth.

[JMichael]

moved Q to the Rules section.

[DarkLink]

I got to say the table is doing a good job of representing the whims of chaos and how it effects battles in the fluff.


They could do this in a way that actually makes for a fun gaming experience, instead of " ****, this is such ********* ".

[Apollinarius]

This is one of many reasons to take Fateweaver. With Fateweaver I tend to get the +1 to invulnerable a lot. It is a game changer to have +2 invulnerable save on daemonettes or hounds especially when they are squads of 20. I think this is wayyy to much. Especailly when +2 invulnerable saving daemonettes have invisibility, feel no pain, re rooll to hit, and the herald can target out anyone in a challenge and they have to accept. They can have a lot more buffs easy. I really can't see anything beating a fully buff squad of nettes with hearld. I had one such squad kill 30 plague marines, 10 khorne berserkers, and khorne himsef, and a Bloodthirster. I only had 6 left with herald and the only squad I lost was my pink horrors with herald. Got to love relic missions.


I'm fairly sure you can't do that. With +1 from the warp storm, you can make it 4++ but Grimoire can't lower it below 3++. The storm takes effect before Grimoire.

[Apollinarius]

The warp storm table is the Daemon Codex's solution to lack of ranged fire support.

The storm isn't meant to be balanced. Think of the storm like shoulder cannons on every demon on the board. It only fires snap shots, but if it hits, it hits for a lot of wounds. Unless you're super unlucky as a Daemon player, you can play the waiting game just as well as an IG or Tau back line. Sit in ruins or in Reserve and let the storm do the work. It forces them to come to you to finish the game quickly rather than wait it out.

I feel that a lot of people are losing to Daemons because they don't realize this. Pretend the storm is Riptides sitting outside the table edge that will destroy you if you don't win fast. Charge them hard. Make them pay for having 5th ed Fearless rules on all daemons. Pack tons of S8 weaponry to ID those Bloodcrushers who went from T5 to T4 and lost Eternal Warrior.

The Codex has lots of weaknesses introduced. The warp storm table is a strength put in to mitigate the weaknesses.

[DarkLink]

None of that does anything to mitigate the fact that it's still crappy game design.

[Apollinarius]

So Goatboy plays Daemons, right? I heard second-hand that one game at Wargames Con, I think, he comes up against Necrons. Turn 1, rolls for Warp Storm. Boom. 3 dead Annihilation Barges. Game over before it even started, not because of any degree of skill on the part of either player, or because one had a good/bad list, or anything like that. Someone just rolled a couple of 6's and it decided the game. That is terrible game design.


There is only one power on the Warp Storm Table that has even a chance to damage Annihilation barges. And, in order to destroy 1 of them, he'd have to roll the power, roll 6 to hit, roll no scatter, roll 6 to penetrate, and then roll 6 to destroy. That's 1/6*1/3*1/6*1/6. That's 1/648. For one barge. You're saying he rolled that 3 times.

If on the first turn of shooting my BS 2 Orks with Rocket Launchers destroy 3 barges, it would have been much more likely, and would have felt like the same amount of luck.

[Apollinarius]

None of that does anything to mitigate the fact that it's still crappy game design.

I disagree. Luck plays a huge factor in every army. The only difference is that warp storms don't have any opportunity cost you roll regardless. The opportunity cost in that case is the fact that you're playing Daemons. It only feels bad if you expect it to be balanced. If it's always supposed to be beneficial, then it makes sense for Chaos.

Sisters of Battle have the same thing. 6++ save on all units. If you're lucky with rolls, your weakest infantry can survive the most insane odds. Their HQ doesn't have EW but she has 50% chance of coming back after being removed, no matter how hard you hit her. Acts of Faith that make them as powerful as units twice their cost, all at the whim of a die roll.

A lucky round of shooting can have 60pts of Eldar Ranger kill an Avatar or any MC with 5 or less wounds. That's the game.

[DarkLink]

You are completely missing the point. I don't care if it's three 6's or 5 or twenty. The point is, it's not a player doing it. It just happens. If you want to play random, go to a casino. On the other hand, he'd have to deploy his barges, you'd have to deploy your Orks, and he would have to decide to risk moving in range of you, or vise versa, for you to destroy them. Rolling on tables is not playing the game. It's not engaging. It's not about whether or not it's more or less beneficial to the Daemon player or his opponent, or if the crazy stuff has pretty low odds of happening.

The point is, before any player does anything of actual meaning, before they make any decisions or actually play the game, 'ok, gotta roll on the table' and bam, something weird happens, one player is at a severe disadvantage now. Randumb devoid of gameplay is bad game design. Otherwise I'd just sit at my desk at home and randomly roll dice every time I wanted to get a game in.


You're saying he rolled that 3 times.


Turn 1. 3 Dead Annihilation Barges. I don't know the Warp Storm table, you tell me how it works.

[Apollinarius]

You are completely missing the point. I don't care if it's three 6's or 5 or twenty. The point is, it's not a player doing it. It just happens. If you want to play random, go to a casino. On the other hand, he'd have to deploy his barges, you'd have to deploy your Orks, and he would have to decide to risk moving in range of you, or vise versa, for you to destroy them. Rolling on tables is not playing the game. It's not engaging. It's not about whether or not it's more or less beneficial to the Daemon player or his opponent, or if the crazy stuff has pretty low odds of happening.

The point is, before any player does anything of actual meaning, before they make any decisions or actually play the game, 'ok, gotta roll on the table' and bam, something weird happens, one player is at a severe disadvantage now. Randumb devoid of gameplay is bad game design. Otherwise I'd just sit at my desk at home and randomly roll dice every time I wanted to get a game in.



Turn 1. 3 Dead Annihilation Barges. I don't know the Warp Storm table, you tell me how it works.

I agree that it's silly that the players have no control. If they could at least chose what targets are affected, it would be better. It would even be fun if it was like in the old codex, where you prayed for a certain outcome, and if the roll matched what you wanted, you'd get it. Otherwise you get nothing or something slightly negative.

As for the Warp Storm table, I explained it :) Once he got the roll for the right power, he needed to make a 1/648 roll to kill each barge. That's three sixes in a row and one 5+ roll. For each barge. It can happen, but the likelyhood of rolling 12 dice and having 9 sixes and three 5 or 6 dice is absurd. It's comparable to 5 guys with sniper rifles moving and firing snap shots at a Bloodthrister and killing him outright.

[Aegwymourn]

I agree that it's silly that the players have no control. If they could at least chose what targets are affected, it would be better. It would even be fun if it was like in the old codex, where you prayed for a certain outcome, and if the roll matched what you wanted, you'd get it. Otherwise you get nothing or something slightly negative.

As for the Warp Storm table, I explained it :) Once he got the roll for the right power, he needed to make a 1/648 roll to kill each barge. That's three sixes in a row and one 5+ roll. For each barge. It can happen, but the likelyhood of rolling 12 dice and having 9 sixes and three 5 or 6 dice is absurd. It's comparable to 5 guys with sniper rifles moving and firing snap shots at a Bloodthrister and killing him outright.


I think that is Darklink's point though. With the snipers both players are actually playing the game. The snipers have to 1) survive for that long, the demon player could just as easily try and kill them 2) be in range 3) both players paid points from their lists to account for their selections. Just because you take a bloodthirster doenst mean you get to do whatever you want with him. The problem with the Warpstorm table and what Darklink and myself don't like is that it is not a part of the more standard game mechanics and can drastically change the game without any real interaction from the players. At that point the game is playing you, instead of you playing the game.

[chicop76]

I'm fairly sure you can't do that. With +1 from the warp storm, you can make it 4++ but Grimoire can't lower it below 3++. The storm takes effect before Grimoire.

Your opinion is not fact.

Daemon special rule =+5 invulnerable save

Movement phase:

True Names gives +2 to invulnerable savee. +5 invulnerable +2 = +3 Invulrnerable save

Begining of Shooting Phase:

Warp storm table result 10 = +1 invulnerable. +3 inulnerable + 1 invulnerable = +2 invulnerable save

Divination Power gives + 4 invulnerable and add true names = +2 invulnerable save

Fateweaver + true names = + 2 invulnerable saves

If you was plaing. Chaos Space Marines with mark of Tzeentch than no +2 invulnerable for them.

Show me where they can't have +2 invulnerable. I can quote why they can.

Unless Fateweaver is used the table can really hurt a daemon player. For example rolling snake eyes can hurt you really hard. You can easily lose thw game with bad leadership checks. Also 5-9 can lso hurt the daemon player as much as the other player.