Armour Pen Question?

[chicop76]

This has been debated as long as I can remember and it always annoys me.

For example let's say I have a vehicle with armour 10 and my strength is 10. This is the two ways I seen it resolved.

1. 10+1=11 which means a pen. Strength 10 vs armour 10 is an auto pen and rolling really doesn't matter.

2. A roll of a 0ne is an auto fail. Armour pen works like wounds and rolling a one means you failed to pen.

The problem with the auto fail concept is it's not in the bok, and armour pen is calulated with d6+ strength.

My question is if strength is equal to the armour value than is it an auto pen or is it a fail.

Things like a Vindicare Assassin turbo round. If you roll a one on a pen it doesn't count, or if you rend and roll a 1 that does not count either.

For this one referance would be nice. That means snake eyes on psychic powers does not wotk, oh wait the book covers that.

I am in the auto pen camp. I don't see how a one fails to do anything on a pen roll.

[daboarder]

This has been debated as long as I can remember and it always annoys me.

For example let's say I have a vehicle with armour 10 and my strength is 10. This is the two ways I seen it resolved.

1. 10+1=11 which means a pen. Strength 10 vs armour 10 is an auto pen and rolling really doesn't matter.

2. A roll of a 0ne is an auto fail. Armour pen works like wounds and rolling a one means you failed to pen.

The problem with the auto fail concept is it's not in the bok, and armour pen is calulated with d6+ strength.

My question is if strength is equal to the armour value than is it an auto pen or is it a fail.

Things like a Vindicare Assassin turbo round. If you roll a one on a pen it doesn't count, or if you rend and roll a 1 that does not count either.

For this one referance would be nice. That means snake eyes on psychic powers does not wotk, oh wait the book covers that.

I am in the auto pen camp. I don't see how a one fails to do anything on a pen roll.

Find the rule that states a roll of one always fails....(It doesn't exist in this context)

really chicop just read the rule book it tell you how to do this in black and white.

[chicop76]

Find the rule that states a roll of one always fails....(It doesn't exist in this context)

really chicop just read the rule book it tell you how to do this in black and white.

That's what I said, but posting it here it involves a third party who would hopefully say the same thing I said. I even said it doesn't exist by the way. I can read till my eyes pop out, but people like to see things in black and white. Also a third party answering the question is helpful.

Especially when said rulling only really benefits me a lot more than them, but it's an argument with how many people. It's easy to debunk the 1 always fail thing. The problem is things like ignore cover says says rolls to wound and ones fail on rolls to wound.

In other words ignore cover doesn't work on vehicles.

The rule book doesn't cover that. Raw vehicles can't lose cover saves to ignore cover.

[daboarder]

That's what I said, but posting it here it involves a third party who would hopefully say the same thing I said. I even said it doesn't exist by the way. I can read till my eyes pop out, but people like to see things in black and white. Also a third party answering the question is helpful.

Especially when said rulling only really benefits me a lot more than them, but it's an argument with how many people. It's easy to debunk the 1 always fail thing. The problem is things like ignore cover says says rolls to wound and ones fail on rolls to wound.

In other words ignore cover doesn't work on vehicles.

The rule book doesn't cover that. Raw vehicles can't lose cover saves to ignore cover.

the difference is that vehicle rules state that they take cover saves "as if they had suffered a wound" so the author didn't think it needed double stated that ignores cover does what it says on the tin.

[Charistoph]

That's what I said, but posting it here it involves a third party who would hopefully say the same thing I said. I even said it doesn't exist by the way. I can read till my eyes pop out, but people like to see things in black and white. Also a third party answering the question is helpful.

Well, this would be a case where it would be a burden on both peoples involved to find it in the book. If nothing else, if the discussion takes too long, roll it off and look it up afterward (or have someone else present look it up).

In this case, the rules for Armour Penetration say nothing about how rolling a 1 always fails to Penetrate or Glance. Therefore, Str 10 vs Armour 10 will always count as a Penetrating Hit.

[chicop76]

Well, this would be a case where it would be a burden on both peoples involved to find it in the book. If nothing else, if the discussion takes too long, roll it off and look it up afterward (or have someone else present look it up).

In this case, the rules for Armour Penetration say nothing about how rolling a 1 always fails to Penetrate or Glance. Therefore, Str 10 vs Armour 10 will always count as a Penetrating Hit.

That's what I said. It says add together and give you 3 scenerios when you do. He is in the wound section pointing out the roll of a one fails to wound. I said vehicles can't be wounded, than the ignore cover rule is brought up, which means vehicles can't be wounded.

That's the argument in a nut shell. I can quote to back up my argument and he can too.

[Magpie]

This is one of those occasions where the rulebook being hard covered and heavy comes in REAL handy.

Tell him to open at the page where he thinks the rule is then slam the sucker on his fingers, HARD !

[Nabterayl]

If his argument is, "Well of course vehicles can be wounded, because otherwise Ignores Cover wouldn't work against vehicles," I don't find that very persuasive. Whether or not Ignores Cover works against vehicles is an open question.

[DarkLink]

It's not a to-wound roll. There's a distinct difference between to-wound and to-penetrate. Tell him that next time he fails a leadership test, if he rolls a '1' he fails, because a roll of a '1' always fails.

[Magpie]

It carries the same logic as if you roll for difficult terrain and get a 1.

You still get to move 1" you don't fail the roll.

[chicop76]

It's not a to-wound roll. There's a distinct difference between to-wound and to-penetrate. Tell him that next time he fails a leadership test, if he rolls a '1' he fails, because a roll of a '1' always fails.

Oh no that means a double one for under 25% is impossible to pass lol. Yeah.

I really don't blame him. It's the other guy who misreads a lot of rules. We argue a lot in the store with him refusing to read what I show him.

Our last argument was about barrage weapons. It was the fact that since the shot is coming from the center in some case said models won't give a cover save. His argument is it is a blast and must follow blast rules which means the unit will get a cover save.

On the brightside I been right about 9 out of 10 times. The time I was wrong was due to the change in marker lights. I thought pathfinders can use them to fire seeker missiles. Only the vehicle with the missiles can fire the seeker missles. Which means I have to marker light with pathfinders first now in stead of the other way around so I can fire all my seekers into a flying bloodthirster.

[Charistoph]

I really don't blame him. It's the other guy who misreads a lot of rules. We argue a lot in the store with him refusing to read what I show him.

Then it's simple, he doesn't want to play the same game you do, so don't play him. If it's a tournament, that's what the TO is for. The guy's either a self-aggrandizing jerk or a troll. Neither is worth a game.


Our last argument was about barrage weapons. It was the fact that since the shot is coming from the center in some case said models won't give a cover save. His argument is it is a blast and must follow blast rules which means the unit will get a cover save.

Yeah, never mind the huge paragraph that specifically says otherwise. Of course, it could just be that he's stuck in 3rd, 4th, or 5th Edition (wait, Barrage worked the same in 5th), and believes in his own brain only.


On the brightside I been right about 9 out of 10 times. The time I was wrong was due to the change in marker lights. I thought pathfinders can use them to fire seeker missiles. Only the vehicle with the missiles can fire the seeker missles. Which means I have to marker light with pathfinders first now in stead of the other way around so I can fire all my seekers into a flying bloodthirster.

True, but that tends to be a waste, shooting Seekers at a Flyer, at least, from anything that doesn't have Skyfire, already. But that just makes the Sky Ray more interesting :D.

[Sainhann]

This has been debated as long as I can remember and it always annoys me.

For example let's say I have a vehicle with armour 10 and my strength is 10. This is the two ways I seen it resolved.

1. 10+1=11 which means a pen. Strength 10 vs armour 10 is an auto pen and rolling really doesn't matter.

2. A roll of a 0ne is an auto fail. Armour pen works like wounds and rolling a one means you failed to pen.

The problem with the auto fail concept is it's not in the bok, and armour pen is calulated with d6+ strength.

My question is if strength is equal to the armour value than is it an auto pen or is it a fail.

Things like a Vindicare Assassin turbo round. If you roll a one on a pen it doesn't count, or if you rend and roll a 1 that does not count either.

For this one referance would be nice. That means snake eyes on psychic powers does not wotk, oh wait the book covers that.

I am in the auto pen camp. I don't see how a one fails to do anything on a pen roll.

Well while you would fail to pen the armor you would still get the glance hit due to you having a strength 10 weapon against an AV 10.

You damaged the vehicle just not enough to take it out.

Plus in 6th a glance is still good.

[Uncle Nutsy]

Auto-fail on a one always bothered me when strength equaled armor value. I wish it was something like when you hit the target, you just skip the glance/pen step and proceed to roll for damage result. No "magic insta-repair" shenanigans, keeps it consistent with AP denying armor save. A lower strength than armor value I can see rolling on the glance/pen chart because there, you definitely have a chance to fail a pen result.