How to make Warp Talons work.

[SacredChao]

I have to say, I love the models for the warp talons, I love the concept, but every time I've seen them played, they just seem to die. So here are some of my ideas for getting them to be effective.

A) Run Chaos Daemons (ally or main) Take a small 10 man squad of the same mark as your Warp Talons, along with an icon and instrument. Deep Strike Both, roll for the Daemon squad first, if they come in, the Warp Talons auto come in. Daemon squad deep strikes near-ish the enemy, use the icon to home the warp talons in.

This tactic allows you to get that pesky Warpflame attack off more reliably... at least making it so they have to TAKE the initiative check or be blinded.

B) Put 5 of them inside a Land Raider. Chaos land raiders can hold anything, no restrictions besides space. Jump infantry are Bulky, so that means you can put 5 of them in there. Turn 1, move 12, turbo boost 6. Turn 2, get out and krump some face!

Any other ideas?

[Nabterayl]

Chaos Land Raiders don't have an exemption to the general rule that transports can only carry Infantry, alas.

[Power Klawz]

Jump infantry are still infantry are they not? They simply count as bulky, transports that specifically cannot transport jump infantry are stated as such in their individual rules, I do not believe it is universal. Jump is simply a modifier, it can be applied to infantry or monstrous creatures, for example.

More to the point, putting them in a raider basically defeats their purpose and adds to the all ready exorbitant fee you're paying for them. Khorne chosen with a few nifty close combat weapons and a tooled up champion would do the job cheaper and arguably better since they have more base attacks.

Edit: Yeah just re-read the jump portion of the rule book, it specifically states in bold print that jump is just a modifier, and the jump units follow the rules for both jump and whatever unit type they are, in this case infantry. There's no specific exclusion to being transported, for example, and they simply count as bulky.

[chicop76]

Take Ahiliman which can grant scout, take Nurgle Bikers with an icon and scout 18" away from enemy. Go second so you can assault first turn. Turn 1 assault with nurgle bikers. When talons come out of reserves use the icon from the bike to come in.

Personally I rather infiltratre with nurgle bikes and have scouting hounds.

[Houghten]

You should have re-read the Transports section instead:

"Only Infantry models can embark upon Transports (this does not include Jump or Jet Pack Infantry), unless specifically stated otherwise."

[Anggul]

I imagine the Blind thing would be great against those I2 Tau gunlines bunched up behind Aegis Lines. Not so great against anything else though. Necrons sometimes maybe?

[Power Klawz]

You should have re-read the Transports section instead:

"Only Infantry models can embark upon Transports (this does not include Jump or Jet Pack Infantry), unless specifically stated otherwise."


Ah thanks, I did not catch that.

[Sly]

You cannot use the Chaos Daemon Icons to aid the Deep Strikes of any units from the CSM Codex except for Daemon Princes.
The Icon rules say that both units must consist solely of models that are "Daemon of the same God X", for any Chaos God X. Warp Talons with the Mark of Nurgle are NOT Daemons of Nurgle, they are Daemon units with the Mark of Nurgle. If they were Daemons of Nurgle, by the rules, they would have Shrouded and Defensive Grenades, and also be Slow and Purposeful, and they don't have any of those rules.

Given that you can't make their DS more accurate by using the Chaos Daemons Codex... that the CSM Codex can't help you do it without great difficulties... that they can't get into a vehicle... they are pretty much worthless. Pretty as they are, I'd consider making some scratch-built flames firing out of their hands, and running them as Flamers of Tzeentch or something like that. Or bulking them up with green stuff and using for Plagueriders of Nurgle. But the actual Warp Talons unit is really, really bad.

[Caitsidhe]

You should have re-read the Transports section instead:

"Only Infantry models can embark upon Transports (this does not include Jump or Jet Pack Infantry), unless specifically stated otherwise."

There is no such thing as Jump or Jetpack. There are just Infantry that are "Jump."

[chicop76]

Infiltrating nurgle bikes with icon. Best delevery system.

I just realised I can scout and infiltrate with fleshounds. That means I can be 6" away with my hounds at the start of the game or 1" away if you can't see them.

Better yet I can infiltrate with 2 squads of damonettes running with the hounds.

I can infiltrate a great unclean one which would be awesome. Infiltrate unclean on in +5 terrain and he would be boss. Follow up with hounds. Take a winged nurgle prince and give it true names.

[Power Klawz]

There is no such thing as Jump or Jetpack. There are just Infantry that are "Jump."

The caveat he mentions is actually specifically spelled out in the rule book, he's quoting it verbatim.

Also warp talons aren't "really, really bad" they're just not immortal all killy death machines that only cost 15 points each. They're space marines which makes them plenty hard to kill all ready. Then you add on a 5++ and give them a pair of lightning claws. 30 points is a reasonable price. Lack of grenades doesn't affect the majority of their matchups to any appreciable amount, if anything the only reason they should be considered subpar is that they die just as quickly to massed infantry fire as normal marines, but each loss is substantially more painful due to their cost.

The thing is that there is nothing wrong with their killing power. They deliver as advertised once you get them into close combat, and they're tough enough to get into combat as is unless your opponent throws an inordinate amount of fire at them, which you should be able to capitalize on with the rest of your army. They are really dependent on a good deep strike against shooty armies like tau and guard. They can singlehandedly ruin a gun line under the right circumstances. Against MEQ gunlines they can be amazing since they will probably take 2 turns to clear out a 10 man squad, meaning that they kill the enemy in his turn and get a free reprieve from retaliatory shooting and get to jump from one combat to the next with enough guys left to kick butts and take names. Your only real worry is that they get shot to pieces the turn they arrive, which honestly is the same worry faced by every deep striking unit in the game so its not like they experience any special weakness, in fact their chance to blind within 6 inches of their arrival point actually helps mitigate this inherent weakness. Also in a very aggressive CSM list you can pull of some neat combos, say drop the talons in the middle of several units that you are lining up charges on that turn, blinded units suffer from WS1 as well as BS1, go for the charge and you've got one sided battles to benefit from even before the talons get to charge, and they don't have to worry about shooting so much since the nearest units are tied up in cqc.

[Caitsidhe]

Also warp talons aren't "really, really bad" they're just not immortal all killy death machines that only cost 15 points each. They're space marines which makes them plenty hard to kill all ready. Then you add on a 5++ and give them a pair of lightning claws. 30 points is a reasonable price. Lack of grenades doesn't affect the majority of their matchups to any appreciable amount, if anything the only reason they should be considered subpar is that they die just as quickly to massed infantry fire as normal marines, but each loss is substantially more painful due to their cost.

And hence they really are that bad. :D It is always going to come back to cost. They only work if you can get them into combat. The problem therein is that is really difficult to accomplish. This edition doesn't favor close combat. It favors the gun. I've gone over the numbers countless times trying to find situations in which they work (at least better than Raptors) but no matter how you crunch the numbers, you end up paying for less result. Raptors will get to inflict damage from a distance while they attempt to close, have more bodies, and can take a damn Banner. Consider the following comparison:

(15) Raptors w/Champion sporting a pair of Lighting Claws, MOS, and Banner of Excess cost 355
(10) Warp Talons w/MOS cost 340

Think about that. For 15pts more you get FIVE more bodies, a FNP roll of 5+ which equates pretty roughly to the Daemon Save (although STR-8+ would cause Instant Death and ignore it), and BOLTER fire. You could even add two special weapons for more options. The shooting attacks more than compensate for the minor difference in attacks if the Talons actually make it to combat. The Raptors are actually MORE likelyt o make it to combat because they have more bodies to lose.


The thing is that there is nothing wrong with their killing power. They deliver as advertised once you get them into close combat, and they're tough enough to get into combat as is unless your opponent throws an inordinate amount of fire at them, which you should be able to capitalize on with the rest of your army.

Except it doesn't take an inordinate amount of firepower to kill them. At most you have ten bodies (and perhaps some IC).


They are really dependent on a good deep strike against shooty armies like tau and guard.

I never Deep Strike them. It is suicide and goes against their strengths. Deep Striking only ensures an even longer time before you can get into combat. If you come in via Deep Strike you are now looking at Turn-3 at the EARLIEST before you can assault. If/when I run Raptors or Talons I start them on the table in strategic positions. If I go first I want to be able to assault by Turn-2. If I go second I want to assault on my first turn. Short of that, I might as well have not taken Jump Troops.


They can singlehandedly ruin a gun line under the right circumstances.

Under the right circumstances "anything" can happen. What is likely to happen is Warp Talons will not ruin any gun lines. What is likely to happen is they will Deep Strike in and get shot to death. At best your hideous investment will have bought some other unit one turn. There are better ways to buy distraction.


Against MEQ gunlines they can be amazing since they will probably take 2 turns to clear out a 10 man squad, meaning that they kill the enemy in his turn and get a free reprieve from retaliatory shooting and get to jump from one combat to the next with enough guys left to kick butts and take names. Your only real worry is that they get shot to pieces the turn they arrive, which honestly is the same worry faced by every deep striking unit in the game so its not like they experience any special weakness, in fact their chance to blind within 6 inches of their arrival point actually helps mitigate this inherent weakness. Also in a very aggressive CSM list you can pull of some neat combos, say drop the talons in the middle of several units that you are lining up charges on that turn, blinded units suffer from WS1 as well as BS1, go for the charge and you've got one sided battles to benefit from even before the talons get to charge, and they don't have to worry about shooting so much since the nearest units are tied up in cqc.

Again, all of this works on the presumption that you somehow cross the field alive to those lines or don't get vaporized the round you sit there because you can't assault the round you arrive from reserve. I worked HARD to try and make them work. I played quite a few games with them in all sorts of formats and numbers. The Warp Talons simply don't work short of a damn Apocalypse game where you have the time and points to burn on crazy tricks.

[Power Klawz]

FNP is good but again, it doesn't work against ID weapons. Probably a fair trade though for the points. Then again 15 raptors won't kill as many things as 10 talons, which is the whole crux of my argument.

15 raptors with lightning claw champion and mark of slaanesh.

Against MEQ: 14 bolt pistol shots, 3.3 dead MEQ.
overwatch fire from 7 remaining marines, 4 bolters, plasma gun, missile launcher, bolt pistol= 1 dead raptor
Raptors attack first, champion challenges sergeant.
Champion: 4 attacks, 1 ap3 wound, dead sergeant
Raptors: 39 attacks, 3.25 dead marines
3 tactical marines: 3 attacks, negligible damage
Total: 7 dead MEQ, 1 casualty in return

10 Talons
Less than 1 average wound from overwatch due to invuln save against missile launcher and plasma gun. Call it 1 by rounding up.
No wounds from shooting
Charging into cover so talons attack last, champion challenges sergeant.

Veteran sergeant with power sword: 3 attacks, 0.5 wounds average. He might kill the champion, lets say he does.
9 tactical marines: 9 attacks. 0.75 wounds. Again, lets assume one death.

7 talons attack: 21 attacks, about 8 dead marines

So this is what I'm talking about. Even in the worst case scenario, even including shooting, even with only 2/3 the guys, talons kill more guys. They're more survivable against the things that reliably kill marines (plasma) and they have a nifty blind attack radius when they enter play via deep strike that can cover a sizable portion of the board in blind tests the turn they arrive. Also good luck deep striking 15 guys without something bad happening.

They need support just like anything in this game, but I can think of a few interesting ways to use them at least.

Also obviously all of those numbers assume no VoTLW and that the unit used its jump packs to move 12 inches. Obviously both units get better at killing marines with either of those variable changing, although talons will see a greater return on rerolling misses than raptors. Also in the situation I assumed the talons were charging into cover for some reason, you'd probably want a different mark if you were planning on using talons to get things out of cover. Nurgle would be best in this scenario since they've all ready got enough killing power to wipe a 10 man squad as it is, MoK would be a bit overkill.

How to make warp talons work? Play aggressively with the rest of your army, try and get early charges and tie up your opponents shooty units before deep striking, plop them down right in the middle of it and force blind tests. Charge something that is all ready engaged by another unit or go after something farther away. A minimum unit of 5 with no upgrades will kill almost anything as long as it gets there with most of its member intact. Use them when your opponent can't properly respond because of threat saturation and aggressive play. That's how I'd use them.

I really don't understand why your opponent is always assumed to have his entire army ready to shoot down your deep striking units the turn they arrive. Doesn't he have other things to shoot at? Isn't he being shot at too and losing guys? Isn't he being tied up in close combat because you are playing CHAOS SPACE MARINES and they live only to RIP AND TEAR?!

[Caitsidhe]

I really don't understand why your opponent is always assumed to have his entire army ready to shoot down your deep striking units the turn they arrive. Doesn't he have other things to shoot at? Isn't he being shot at too and losing guys? Isn't he being tied up in close combat because you are playing CHAOS SPACE MARINES and they live only to RIP AND TEAR?!

You always assume the worst and prepare for it. If the worst doesn't come to pass, great! Your commentary is colorful but it doesn't reflect the reality on the board. Warp Talons simply do not work well. I wish it were otherwise. I say this having TRIED them. This isn't theoryhammer. This is fact. I'm not alone.

I would be thrilled if the Warp Talons worked. I would love to use them as they are lovely models. I'm a pragmatist, however, and a model must have both form and function to make my lists.

[daboarder]

Take Ahiliman which can grant scout, take Nurgle Bikers with an icon and scout 18" away from enemy. Go second so you can assault first turn. Turn 1 assault with nurgle bikers. When talons come out of reserves use the icon from the bike to come in.

Personally I rather infiltratre with nurgle bikes and have scouting hounds.

Bikes are not infantry!
Nor are Monstrous Creatures
Nor are beasts

just a note, Icons of chaos.

Units with the daemons special rule scatter D6 when deepstriking off them, regardless of alignment.

And instruments work on units with the daemon special rule, no alignment required.