Reserves and Psychic powers

[Tyrendian]

Hey guys, quick question:
While there is no official "psychic phase", blessings etc. are cast at the start of the movement phase, so one might call it that. Reserves are supposed to come in "at the start of your turn", so that's before our "psychic phase". That should mean I can cast Blessings on (or even from) units that just entered from reserves, right? And also that the Hemlock can use Terrify the turn he flies in? Oh, and about that, when exactly do Interceptor shots happen? We usually play it so that all reserves come in simultaneously and then Interceptors shoot a target of their choosing...)

[Magpie]

Blessing are manifested at the start of the movement phase. Anything that takes place at the start of the movement phase can't be done by a unit entering from reserve.

Interceptor shots are done at the end of the movement phase. That's in the rule itself.

[Wolfshade]

While I do not have my rule book on me I would say that a unit coming on from reserve cannot use any powers that are manifest at the start of teh movement phase. There is no is specification for what order units move, so I can so no reason unit X arrives from reserve (using whatever method) then unit Y casts blessings on the arriving unit.

Rational:

I think this is covered in Reserves, or at least is implied. (p124?)

When bringing models in from reserve, measure from the edge of the battlefield.
This infers that at the start of the movement phase, i.e. when the powers need to be manifested, the model itself is off the board, butted up next to it.
It then uses its movement phase to fully come onto the board. Models off the board cannot do anything or grant benefits, unless specifically specified.

[Capn Stoogey]

I actually had this come up last week. If you look at the bottom left of page 9 (BRB) it shows that when two events occur simultaneously, the player whose turn it is decides the order in which they happen. For example, in my game, my librarian entered via drop pod, then was able to cast blessings and maledictions right away. I believe it was also FAQd by GW that it works this way as well. I wasn't sure I could do it but my opponent, who is a regular tournament player, and the GM who is running our campaign both told me that's how it goes, you're in the clear mate :)

[Wolfshade]

From Capn Stoogey:
40k Rules FAQ April 2013:

Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement
phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves
rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68)
A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose
turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per
page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

[Magpie]

The powers are cast at the start of the movement phase so by the time a unit is coming in from reserve the start has passed so the power can't be cast on them.

Reserves are rolled for at the "start" but arrive after the start.

We also need to remember this
Page 125
"Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve."

So a libby casting a Blessing when he Pods in is wrong.

[Kazzigum]

The powers are cast at the start of the movement phase so by the time a unit is coming in from reserve the start has passed so the power can't be cast on them.

Reserves are rolled for at the "start" but arrive after the start.

We also need to remember this
Page 125
"Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve."

So a libby casting a Blessing when he Pods in is wrong.

It actually states in plain language that you cannot do this on page 67 under Manifesting Psychic Powers, third paragraph down. So, umm, nope. Kinda scares me that tournament players believe otherwise though.

[Magpie]

Being a tournament player give you no special abilities in interpreting the rules nor the conduct of the game in my experience.
Quite the opposite in some cases :D

[40kGamer]

I've always played that you can not use blessings when you arrive from reserve but this is on pg 7 of the main rulebook FAQ.

Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement
phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves
rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68)
A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose
turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per
page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

So... what does this mean?

[Magpie]

It means that at the start of the movement phase, before anything has actually moved, you get to do a series of things.
Roll for reserves, cast certain powers, determine outflanking moves and so on.

You as the current player get to choose the order in which they are done.

Once they are done, you then move you units, starting with any that are arriving from reserve.

[40kGamer]

It means that at the start of the movement phase, before anything has actually moved, you get to do a series of things.
Roll for reserves, cast certain powers, determine outflanking moves and so on.

You as the current player get to choose the order in which they are done.

Once they are done, you then move you units, starting with any that are arriving from reserve.

Got it... glad we haven't been playing this wrong for years! Not surprised a tourney player may misinterpret this. Being a tournament regular doesn't automatically make someone a rules master.

[Sly]

I've always played that you can not use blessings when you arrive from reserve but this is on pg 7 of the main rulebook FAQ.

Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement
phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves
rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68)
A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose
turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per
page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

So... what does this mean?

It means that you can choose in which order you roll for any reserve units, start-of-movement Psychic powers, and other abilities.
Note that this allows you to choose to enter with a unit, and then cast a Blessing upon it.
Also note that there is a SEPARATE restrictions on units that have entered from Reserves, preventing them from manifesting "start of movement phase" powers such as these Psychic abilities, so the unit that is casting the Blessing must have been on the table before the start of the Movement phase.

[40kGamer]

It means that you can choose in which order you roll for any reserve units, start-of-movement Psychic powers, and other abilities.
Note that this allows you to choose to enter with a unit, and then cast a Blessing upon it.
Also note that there is a SEPARATE restrictions on units that have entered from Reserves, preventing them from manifesting "start of movement phase" powers such as these Psychic abilities, so the unit that is casting the Blessing must have been on the table before the start of the Movement phase.


Well we haven't been playing that way but it does seem to make sense... :confused:

[Tyrendian]

thanks for the answers guys - there goes the Hemlock from "maybe marginally useful and fun" to complete trash... *sigh*

[Capn Stoogey]

Well, looks like I dun frakked up. I guess we just took it as rolling for reserves being one and the same as entering from reserves, I'll keep that in mind from now on. Btw, when I said he was a tourney vet, i didn't mean to imply he was infallible, merely that he had played a lot of games and presumably seen things like this come up a lot, and knew what the consensus was.

[40kGamer]

Well, looks like I dun frakked up. I guess we just took it as rolling for reserves being one and the same as entering from reserves, I'll keep that in mind from now on. Btw, when I said he was a tourney vet, i didn't mean to imply he was infallible, merely that he had played a lot of games and presumably seen things like this come up a lot, and knew what the consensus was.

Hope I didn't come across as negative. I've frequented small-medium sized tournaments for years now and there is no way I have 100% of the rules down. I actually doubt (and don't expect) the majority of tournament players to know everything either between frequent updates, FAQs and overall vague wording... :)

[Anakzar]

Well a strong willed person can sift the consensus of a group... so it may not be really a consensus but rather one persons thoughts. Also if a rules interpretation comes from someone that runs a store or works at one people tend to give it more weight. They should not but its assumed that since they deal with games as a job they should know more than the average person.

Personally I think that the rule should have been that they buff up just as they are about to enter combat zone... and so should be able to enter with a Blessing. I mean for a Psychic to enter a battle zone without a blessing up is sort of like a regular troop entering without his gun loaded, or his armor unbuckled with helmet off... oh wait we see that helmet off thing all the time! :rolleyes:

[Nabterayl]

Don't forget the skimmers and bikes who zoom into position right before battle and then cease all movement until their turn comes around :)

"There they are, brothers! Assault squad - halt!"

"Halt? Um, Brother Sergeant, didn't you mean full throttle? These motorbikes are a lot harder to hit when they're moving ..."

"Time enough for that later, Brother. Just wouldn't be sporting if we counted as moving before the first shots were fired, now, would it?"

[pgarfunkle]

My reading is that it's saying that you can choose whether you cast psychic powers before or after reserves.

Therefore you can roll for reserves and then cast a power on a recently arrived unit using a psyker that was already on the table and that had not arrived that turn per the rules for manifesting powers.

Agree/Disagree?

Edit: Lol ok need to refresh the page a bit more frequently between reading and commenting at work :rolleyes:

[Nabterayl]

Agree. I am not certain whether you can go back and forth, though. I think you need to decide whether you're doing all your reserves first and then casting powers, or casting all your powers first and then doing your reserves.

[pgarfunkle]

Oh yeah definitely all reserves then all powers or vice versa. Like Space Hulk no jumping back and forth between tasks!

[Daemonette666]

I've always played that you can not use blessings when you arrive from reserve but this is on pg 7 of the main rulebook FAQ.

Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement
phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves
rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68)
A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose
turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per
page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

So... what does this mean?

It means the controlling player decides whether to roll for outflankers, reserves, or cast blessings/maledictions first, their choice. The others of the 2 options available to them is then done. Following that, any units that are coming in from reserves, or outflanking (reserves) then move onto the table.

This means the psykers who you rolled for to come in from reserves, or to outflank, have not yet moved onto the table. They therefore can not cast their blessing or malediction powers this turn, and will have to suffice with witchfire powers in the shooting phase.

As to what Pgarfunkle said, I agree. though it does not matter which happens first really, as the units in reserve waiting to come on or outflank, can not be affected by the Blessings or Maledictions anyway. If you were to mix them up, it would not overly affect the game at all, unless one of the psychic powers cast at the beginning of the movement phase altered the reserves/outflank rolls.

[Nabterayl]

If that were the way the FAQ means "reserve rolls," Daemonette, do you have a reading that does not make the entire FAQ surplusage?

[Magpie]

The entry of reserves is not a start of movement phase activity, you cannot choose to have reserves enter before you do your psychic powers. They come in first but they after "the start".

Once you start moving units the "start" bit is over, otherwise where else does it end?
Also the rule says that after you have moved all of the units arriving from reserve you proceed to move your other units, you have no option to do anything else.

The reserve roll is made but the unit doesn't enter at that time, it can't, you have to do all of your reserve rolls first.

[Nabterayl]

Same question to you, then, Magpie.

[Magpie]

The question asks, at the start of my turn I need to resolve psychic powers, reserve rolls and outflanking rolls.

Can I
A) Take my reserve rolls, determine where my outflankers are going to go then roll for psychic powers
OR
B)roll for psychic powers then Take my reserve rolls then determine where my outflankers are going to go
OR
C)determine where my outflankers are going to go, roll for psychic powers then Take my reserve rolls

etc

Answer : You get to choose.

Why you'd take your outflanker rolls before determining if they are even going to enter this turn is a mystery but the principle is that all these things happen at the same time so you get to choose.

[Aramel]

Which rule specifically states that models that enter from reserve cannot manifest powers? If there is no such rule then it seems to me that the FAQ lets you roll for reserves, cast your powers (from the model entering play) and then move said model.

[Nabterayl]

The question asks, at the start of my turn I need to resolve psychic powers, reserve rolls and outflanking rolls.

Can I
A) Take my reserve rolls, determine where my outflankers are going to go then roll for psychic powers
OR
B)roll for psychic powers then Take my reserve rolls then determine where my outflankers are going to go
OR
C)determine where my outflankers are going to go, roll for psychic powers then Take my reserve rolls

etc

Answer : You get to choose.

Why you'd take your outflanker rolls before determining if they are even going to enter this turn is a mystery but the principle is that all these things happen at the same time so you get to choose.
You propose that the knowledge of what is going to arrive is sufficiently material to make the FAQ say something, even if it isn't saying that models can arrive prior to start-of-turn powers being cast?

I can accept that.


Which rule specifically states that models that enter from reserve cannot manifest powers? If there is no such rule then it seems to me that the FAQ lets you roll for reserves, cast your powers (from the model entering play) and then move said model.
Page 67: "On a turn that a psyker arrives from reserve (see page 124) he cannot attempt to manifest any psychic powers that must be manifested at the start of the Movement phase."

[Aramel]

Bah, well at least I can Guide my Nightwing...

[Nabterayl]

To the extent you care, Magpie has convinced me that you can't Guide your Nightwing on the turn it arrives from Reserve.

[Magpie]

You propose that the knowledge of what is going to arrive is sufficiently material to make the FAQ say something, even if it isn't saying that models can arrive prior to start-of-turn powers being cast?

Yep spot on. I'm sure there are a great many other things that go on at the "start of movement phase" that may well be a lot more order of resolution dependant.

[mathhammer]

To the extent you care, Magpie has convinced me that you can't Guide your Nightwing on the turn it arrives from Reserve.

You can, blessings are cast at the begining of the "psykers movement phase", which doesn't start until you select the model to move.

[DarkLink]

This isn't warmachine, mathhammer.

[Nabterayl]

I used to think that as well, mathhammer, but I believe the FAQ clearly forecloses that interpretation. As it says,


Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68)
A: They do occur simultaneously ...

Reserve rolls and the like clearly occur before any model has moved ("At the start of your Turn," as page 124 says). Since blessings and the "start of the Psyker's Movement phase" both occur simultaneously with that, it follows that a model's Movement phase is not actually different from the owning player's.

[Magpie]

Yeh I was n that camp as well until the FAQ Nab quotes laid it to rest.

[Daemonette666]

You can, blessings are cast at the begining of the "psykers movement phase", which doesn't start until you select the model to move.

Psychic powers can only effect models that are on the table. Since the flier is not on the table until it moves, it can not have a blessing cast upon it. Unless otherwise stated, a Psyker needs Line of sight to a target (so the target must be on the table), otherwise people would be trying all sorts of sneaky and silly things to target your flier with psychic powers while it is off the table.