Dealing with the Farsight Bomb

[droozy]

...Any suggestions? It's so nasty. I'm running Chaos and trying not to rage quit against this thing. Deepstrike with no scatter, Jet pack, re-roll failed to hits, an absolutely absurd amount of plasma guns... somebody please help me with this.

[Mazelf]

...Any suggestions? It's so nasty. I'm running Chaos and trying not to rage quit against this thing. Deepstrike with no scatter, Jet pack, re-roll failed to hits, an absolutely absurd amount of plasma guns... somebody please help me with this.

I actually played chaos before taking up my old Tau army once the new rules set came out, I think you need to deal with the farsight bomb like you deal with any other death star unit, lots of bolter fire, lots of other kinds of fire, charge it with a throw away unit to absorb overwatch fire (specially nasty if they have the counter thingy that lets them overwatch on BS2) and then charge it with a heavy hitter like a Khorne Lord on Juggernaut with Axe of Murder or maybe a couple of Maulerfiends... Anyway, the best way to deal with ANY Tau unit is just to engage it in melee I think, they will fold instantly (seriously, Ive had my farsight bomb be wiped out by a squad of 6 BA assault marines)

[SeekingOne]

Don't forget that Multi-tracker (the item that allows a battle suite to fire 2 weapons) only works in Shooting phase. So Crisis suits are limited to just 1 weapon per model when firing overwatch. It's not much, but still worth remembering.

BTW, could anyone please outline a typical configuration of the Farsight bomb squad?

[40kGamer]

BTW, could anyone please outline a typical configuration of the Farsight bomb squad?

I don't know if this is typical but for 2k+ games I've put together the following:

1 Farsight
1 Battlesuit Commander (Iridium, MSV, CnC, Puretide, Neuroweb, Onager - Drone Controller, Shield, FnP, Flamer)
1 Crisis BG (PG, FB, Vectored Engines)
2 Crisis BG (PG, FB, BC)
4 Crisis BG (PG, FB, Target Lock)
4 Shield Drones
5 Gun Drones

Clocks in at 972 points which is not what I consider a competitive build but dead nasty in the right circumstances.

Basically lots of positioning when you drop. Present Farsight and BS Commander to enemy and make full use of sworn protector, shield drones and split fire. Would be interested to know what others run...

[Magpie]

Take Grey Knight allies. Warp Quake will solve the "no scatter" problem which might give you the ability to force the Deep Strikers out of the Plasma range from the bulk of your forces ?

[40kGamer]

Take Grey Knight allies. Warp Quake will solve the "no scatter" problem which might give you the ability to force the Deep Strikers out of the Plasma range from the bulk of your forces ?

Yeah Warp Quake is vicious, even against drop pods. I've never came up against a Grey Knight player using the unit before which seems odd to me!

[Mazelf]

Well, the one I use (bacause I try to keep it "cheap") is:

Farsight

Bodyguard x2 fusion guns, target lock, 2 gun drones (for ablative wounds)
Bodyguard x2 fusion guns, target lock, 2 gun drones
Bodyguard x2 plasma guns, counterfire defense system, 2 gun drones
Bodyguard x2 plasma guns, cpunterfire defense system, 2 gun drones
Bodyguard, cnc node, onager glove, drone controller, iridium battlesuit, 2 gun drones

Edit for spelling*

[nurglez]

OP is using chaos, so I don't think grey knights are an option.

The larger the unit, the larger the foot print, You could always try using terrain and other units to protect what you would expect to be the main target of the bomb, by narrowing the possibilities of where it can be placed. Chaos can't really counter this unit except to try and prevent the amount of damage it can do when it drops, and then to either take it out as quickly as possible or tar pit it. I always take dirge casters on my vehicles (a landraider and 2 rhinos) but I am yet to see how they fare against the new tau.

[Caitsidhe]

OP is using chaos, so I don't think grey knights are an option.

The larger the unit, the larger the foot print, You could always try using terrain and other units to protect what you would expect to be the main target of the bomb, by narrowing the possibilities of where it can be placed. Chaos can't really counter this unit except to try and prevent the amount of damage it can do when it drops, and then to either take it out as quickly as possible or tar pit it. I always take dirge casters on my vehicles (a landraider and 2 rhinos) but I am yet to see how they fare against the new tau.

Pretty much this. The new META makes the Drop & Pop almost mandatory (particularly against Tau). Most of my lists have the option to Deep Strike a huge portion of my force. My vehicles always have Dirge Casters. You setup to swap Queens. He "bombs" you. You destroy the unit after he takes one of yours. That is pretty much it.

[Learn2Eel]

Assuming you are playing a decent game, don't bunch everything together and use cover to your advantage. Remember that it comes down on turn two at the earliest. If you only give your opponent one target in range a time - which should be easy on a 6x4 - you don't have to worry much at all. They come down, probably destroy something, and then you can pincer them with other stuff. Pretty basic, but it works and should apply to every army.

As Caitsidhe said, you effectively exchange queens and deal with the rest of the force.

[chicop76]

1. Tell us what you have and what you can run.
2. You can field half your army in reserves.

If he's not running early warning or shyfire than the unit is vulnerable to reserves.

It's hard to suggest what to do since I only know half his list.

I think oblits deep striking would be a good ideal. Maybe units of one each. They deep strike and heavy flame pathfinders out of the bush.

Take bikers in reserve with lord that have burninng brand flame the blob. Make sure you get the side where you are killind the most suits.

Take cultist and have them field first. Plasma and melta would be wasted shots on theses guys.

Helldrake comes in and flame them really good and vector strke which is random wound allocation.

I almost want to say take daemons allies and run daemonettes, seekers, or hounds. Thinking about it run hounds and take a herald of khorne with the grimorie of true names. The unit will have a +3 invulnerable save. Take a caster and hope for endurance. If you cast endurance on the unit it will laugh off the bomb and can kill it eventually. The hit an run will help the hounds since they will keep getting furious charge and +1 attack. If you take loci than they can keep getting hatred or +2 on the charge lol on the hit and run. He can't escape the hounds with fleet, move through cover, and 12" of movement.

Don't challenge O'Shova with your herald. You will only have a +5 invulnerable on your herald. Taking the herald prevent you from taking another herald bearer of the true names. Unless you run a greater daemon. I don't like to do so since any model giviving +3 invulnerable saves becomes a huge target.

Again go for +3 invulnerable saving endurance hounds it will fix the problem. The unit with herald is half of what he is spending.

Also the unit does not have split fire. Target lock again does not give split fire. He can shoot seperately with the model with taarget lock. It doesn't allow him to pick and choose who can split fire and how many in his unit.

[droozy]

So unload with everything then lock in multiple combats? I hear ya'll when you talk about swapping queens, but who would be my queen in this situation? I have no death star units. My Heldrakes aren't going to do much against the 2+ save, vehicles and terminators are laughably bad against the farsight bomb, I have confidence that if I can get berzerkers and Kharn into close combat with them it would be a wrap but getting them there is a problem. Maybe try and tar-pit with a cultist blob then move in with berzerkers? For this to work my opponent would have to be either very stupid or very unlucky. Sounds like fast attack is the only way to engage them in close combat but then you need a unit robust enough to withstand the withering firepower of overwatch. 3+ inv. save on hounds? Sounds promising, I'll look into that. Maybe deepstrike in two squads of obliterators and open up with twin link meltas? should help thin the ranks a little. Follow up with a charge, Kharn could clean up. There are plenty other threats from tau tho, those pathfinders got to go. I'm not scared of the riptide but that damned hammerhead with the tank commander is one mean dude. I need an ap2 large blast. lol.

[Caitsidhe]

In this case swapping Queens is just an expression. Ideally you will swap whatever unit they drop the Bomb on followed by you excecuting that unit with whatever you drop on it. You are likely swapping Queens because they are going to try to use it on your best, most dangerous unit if you put it where they can reach it.

Ideally, you want to put a unit out that they can reach that you can live without (good enough to be bait but not the backbone of your army). Then hit them with your unit killer.

[Power Klawz]

Look guys, WARP TALONS

...

think about it.

[Caitsidhe]

Look guys, WARP TALONS

...

think about it.

<laughs> Naw... you don't need Warp Talons for the job. A DP does just fine. Once the unit is engaged it is neutralized.

[Power Klawz]

It sure would give those poor *******s some meaning in their lives though.

[DarkLink]

Actually, Crisis Suits aren't half bad in assault by simple weight of Str 5 attacks, and Farsight himself is pretty beefy (4 WS5 Str5 I5 AP2 Armorbane attacks for 165pts? When most assault armies in the game pay a lot more for Unweildy AP2? WTF GW?). And they have stupidly easy access to Hit and Run (Vectored Retrothrusters for 5pts on one model, and you get to use Farsight's I5 for the test). So you'd better hit them hard in assault. A Daemon Prince is a good choice, but you can't engage them with just anything.

[Power Klawz]

Farsight himself is a beast machine I'll give you that, but the rest of the squad is getting munched, especially against something like Talons since Farsight will have to spend all his attacks on the champion anyways.

Farsight will probably kill the champion unless he makes his invuln save. 4 more talons on the charge with no marks will dish out 12 attacks, hitting on 3s and rerolling wounds with no armor saves allowed. That's basically 6 dead fish before the last guy can hit back.

I mean obviously this is a foregone conclusion but I just wanted to do the math to make myself feel better about warp talons.

Unless... I can't remember. Are crisis suits 2 wound models?

[40kGamer]

Farsight himself is a beast machine I'll give you that, but the rest of the squad is getting munched, especially against something like Talons since Farsight will have to spend all his attacks on the champion anyways.

Farsight will probably kill the champion unless he makes his invuln save. 4 more talons on the charge with no marks will dish out 12 attacks, hitting on 3s and rerolling wounds with no armor saves allowed. That's basically 6 dead fish before the last guy can hit back.

I mean obviously this is a foregone conclusion but I just wanted to do the math to make myself feel better about warp talons.

That's why I dump both HQs in the unit with some shield drones... and vectored thrusters are sweet! :)

[Power Klawz]

Agh shield drones. It'd take some fancy footwork to try and make sure you don't end up wasting HtH wounds on those little buggers.

I can't recall right now, are initiative tests taken with the unit majority initiative for blind? I think crisis suits are I3 right? Would be neat to drop in and blind the squad for a turn and then turn around and open some tuna cans.

[Nabterayl]

I can't recall right now, are initiative tests taken with the unit majority initiative for blind?
It's never actually specified. I think most people would go for a majority though.

[Power Klawz]

Actually I seem to vaguely recall reading somewhere the opposite now. But I don't have my rule book handy at the moment. Like it was stated somewhere that a quicker character could shout out a warning to the rest of the squad or something.

[chicop76]

The suits have blacksun filters and are immune to blind. If you put half your force in reserve it leaves him vulnurable from deepstriking and reserve shooting.

The helldrake should reck the unit. Just don't angel yourself where O'shova or the +2 save is the closest.

Hounds work really well since even if they hit and run which they need a 6 on a d6 to not run they can't really get away from the dogs. The dogs can take the shooting.

Deamonprince really don't work due to sheild drones and hit and run. The second they break the unit will kill the prince with plasma and melta death.

[rle68]

dark eldar helions... pull farsight out of cc by himself and then blast him lol

[droozy]

[QUOTE=chicop76;318117]

The helldrake should reck the unit. Just don't angel yourself where O'shova or the +2 save is the closest.

You think so? Haven't had a lot of luck with the heldrake against Farsight, though he is integral in ripping apart the tau infantry. Don't the shield drones have the same save as the unit its attached to? Seems like I need a lower AP weapon to do the trick. and a lot of damn shots.

[Caitsidhe]

[QUOTE=chicop76;318117]

The helldrake should reck the unit. Just don't angel yourself where O'shova or the +2 save is the closest.

You think so? Haven't had a lot of luck with the heldrake against Farsight, though he is integral in ripping apart the tau infantry. Don't the shield drones have the same save as the unit its attached to? Seems like I need a lower AP weapon to do the trick. and a lot of damn shots.

Vector Strike hits aren't resolved that way (closest thing). The Helldrake has enough movement that it should be able to decide to be on the right side to avoid having that model closest.

[chicop76]

The vector strikes are random. I am talkings about the strength 6 ap 3 flamer which only one model can save against plus the shield drones.

The vector strikes randomly hit targets which does help.

Also if you use you know the flamer. Make sure you go for and angle where his closest have less shielding.

I did't see shield generators in the unit. I seen shield drones. There is no way he can make his O'Shova and the +2armour the closet from all angels. You might get a shield drone, but you wil get a few suits.

Just make sure you not shooting at angels where O'Shova and the +2 commander is not the cloesest.

Another solution is to take two sorcerors and go max biomancy. Hope for 2 enfeebles and lower that units toughness to 2. Now bolters can instant kill them and in combat O'Shova and the majority of the unit will be strength 3.

Also Thousand suns would be great vs this unit. Lower to t2 and fire the sons at him. Make sure at an angle his +2 commander is not at.

[Power Klawz]

Damn forgot about blacksun filters. I'm sorry Warp Talons, I tried to make you pretty!

[Caitsidhe]

Damn forgot about blacksun filters. I'm sorry Warp Talons, I tried to make you pretty!

Believe me I wish you could pretty them up. :( So far the only semi-interesting option I've found for them is in REALLY large games wherein I am running CMS w/Daemon Allies so I can give them the MOT and then have the Tome improve their Invulnerable save another two levels. In really LARGE games there are enough threats to keep the heat off them long enough to do all this, but they remain hideously overpriced and unlikely to give you a return.

[40kGamer]

Damn forgot about blacksun filters. I'm sorry Warp Talons, I tried to make you pretty!

Every codex gets at least one unit that looks oh so cool in print and then royally sucks in the game. :p

[Power Klawz]

Well I'm sure they'd do well enough against tau when employed properly. They could just spend the whole game wiping out fire warrior teams, I just suspect that's not the most efficient way to do it since bog standard CSM will put just as much of a hurting on tau for less than half the price per attack.

[Caitsidhe]

Well I'm sure they'd do well enough against tau when employed properly. They could just spend the whole game wiping out fire warrior teams, I just suspect that's not the most efficient way to do it since bog standard CSM will put just as much of a hurting on tau for less than half the price per attack.

Except that this wouldn't happen. They would be dead in most cases long before they reached the first Fire Warrior unit. In the rare case they made it to their target, their numbers would be so depleted that upon finishing one unit they would be wiped out directly after and never reach a second. Basic Raptors can at least get to a fifteen count unit plus one if you add a Warlord with a jumppack. All in all they stand a better chance (and are cheaper) of making it into combat since they at least could shoot to soften a target and have more bodies to survive the journey there. And really, if you are going after Tau does it make much difference if you hit the Fire Warriors with Raptors or Warp Talons? In both cases, if you make contact you are going to kill the Tau. They don't get any EXTRA dead. All those extra wounds won't go anywhere else. :D

[Power Klawz]

Its not that warp talons have any especial propensity for winding up dead, they're more survivable than standard MEQ against high ap attacks and exactly the same against anything ap4 or less. Its just that they're a bit too pricey and so every death means a bit too much. If you look at just their aptitude at killing things the extra cost is justified, its that they experience no increased survivability towards what generally kills marines, massed infantry fire.

A standard raptor is 17 points, a talon is 30. For 13 points you get 3, str4, ws4 ap- attacks on the charge. For 30 you get 3 str4, ws4, ap3 attacks that reroll wounds.

Against tau you wind up with 0.66 dead tau per attacking raptor. You get about 1.77 per attacking talon. That's 168% more efficacy for 130% more cost, however both will die just as fast to standard infantry fire and therein lies the rub.

[40kGamer]

And really, if you are going after Tau does it make much difference if you hit the Fire Warriors with Raptors or Warp Talons? In both cases, if you make contact you are going to kill the Tau. They don't get any EXTRA dead. All those extra wounds won't go anywhere else. :D

If you hit average Tau with a feather they're likely dead it's getting there to use said feather... :p

[droozy]

I don't like Tau. There's too damn many of them and they just sit there and shoot. I've played a few games v. Tau where my opponent never leaves his deployment zone. Yaawn.

[Power Klawz]

I'm just saying that statistically talons will kill tau (and basically everything else that isn't a terminator or MC) faster and more points efficiently than raptors, but only if they make it there in enough pieces to swing those meat hooks. Their efficiency only increase the higher value the target, at AP- they're still better because they reroll wounds, at ap3 they kill slightly more than one MEQ per attacking talon on average.

The points cost is steep but almost fitting, double lightning claws are expensive for good reason, what really puts the fly in the ointment for a lot of people I believe is no assault grenades. They're about as survivable as you can make a jump infantry unit that is also as killy as they are. Sanguinary Guard skirt the line with their 2+ but they don't have an invulnerable and are also more expensive. It takes a lot of flashlights to kill a marine, and even pulse rifles will take an average of 5.5 markerlight pumped BS5 pulse rounds to kill one of them. Against things like guard and tau charging into cover isn't much of an issue since they're not very likely to kill more than one before they hit back. Against eldar its not very important because you were never going to hit first anyways, you might have gone simultaneously with MoS but even so, guardians aren't going to do much against talons and neither are non-close combat oriented aspects.

Nid's will pose a problem in cover, but they're probably just as eager to charge you as you are them so you can try to make that work in your favor with something like MoK, take the charge and you still get your full compliment of attacks. Or go the other direction and attack a cheapish nurgle lord with blight grenades to MoN talons, now you've got defensive grenades and can take a charge with impunity knowing that there's no real advantage to it other than denying you an extra attack. And again, a lot of nids are high I anyways so charging them through cover doesn't change the outcome at all.

Basically they are marines. They're pretty hard to kill and most matchups you're looking for won't be too terribly affected by the lack of grenades. Worst case scenario you charge a tac squad with a power sword wielding veteran sergeant, you don't need many talons left after the initial attack to pull out a win since they kill so much. Against MEQ I'd suggest MoS. I think the worst matchup for them would be a tac squad with plasma and heavy bolter in cover, with a power sword wielding veteran sergeant. Against such a foe they'll lose one in the phase before they charge to non-rapid fire shooting, maybe another to overwatch and maybe another before they get to attack in combat. Even at minimum strength you can count on them winning that combat. However if you want that unit gone in a timely fashion you should take more than the minimum. 8 should do the trick allowing you to strike with 5 on average, who will kill about 6 in close combat, unfortunately you cannot decide to forego a sweeping advance roll and will likely stay locked in combat with a unit of ATSKNF marines, but you'll kill them all on your next turn with enough talons left to go after something else, and you avoided a round of shooting by being locked in combat. Of course that's a 274 point unit or thereabouts, so you're going to need to kill at least another tac squad to make it up.

Of course this is assuming you didn't just deep strike within 6 inches and use your jump packs for impact hits. If you manage to blind the unit you're charging their rapid fire retaliation will be basically nullified, and you'll get 7 to 8 free str4 hits at I10 regardless of whether or not you're charging into cover. That's good for a dead marine, thus skewing the results in your favor even more dramatically. Of course the odds of marines failing a blind test are not that great, only 33%, so its a gamble, especially if the unit is rocking a plasma gun.

[DarkLink]

Does the Black Mace happen before Hit and Run?

[Caitsidhe]

Does the Black Mace happen before Hit and Run?

Depends on the wording of Hit & Run (which I dont' have handy). The Black Mace effect against the general populace happens at the end of a phase in which it caused one or more wounds.

*I looked up Hit & Run and since it triggers ALSO at the end of an Assault Phase it means that whether or not it happens before the Black Mace depends on WHOSE turn the combat is taking place during. The person whose Turn it is will get to choose the order.

[Ben Brown]

as far im aware black mace happens before hit and run and would do some damage but not enough to wipe out the unit. i know it may sound obvious and boring but how about some vindicators in reserve, just deploy half an army full of bilge wait for him to deploy and move on with the real section of the force. the tau player could hope to delay the strike but with such a large investment of points its likely you can attract him to deploy with a half decent bait unit. warp talons are excellent if you can deep strike after the tau an blind them, as is the slaanesh primaris power

[DarkLink]

Tau have terrible Initiative. You don't need to kill the unit, you just need to cut it down to size and get rid of some of the ablative drone wounds. Once it's down to 3-4 suits, it's not a big deal, that's just 6-8 MEQ wounds. Any decent army should be able to force enough saves to kill that. It's whittling them down to a manageable size that's the tricky part.

[droozy]

Food for thought. Thanks guys

[nenya97]

Just go biomancy/nurgle to lower their T to 3 or below and heldrake them to death. You can kill half the unit with one alone.

[Infinite Freedom]

Something S8 Ap3 or better. My personal favorite is either Demolisher cannon, Hades Autocannons or Ectoplasma cannons.