Wrathknight: Why is this a thing?

[Fueldrop]

Ok, let's talk about the Wrathknight. For anyone who doesn't know, it's a T8 jetpacking monsterous creature with 6 wounds, strength 10 and comes stock with a pair of massive strength 10 ap 1 weapons. it can be outfitted for close combat or with a triple-tapping plasma cannon and blinding forcefield, and can take up to 2 heavy weapons on top of that.

And it is rubbish.

the price tag on this thing is staggering, to the point where I cannot see any reason to take one... particularly because whatever you outfit it to do can be done as well by a different heavy support choice, cheaper.

Let's take a look at the stock standard model. for just over a third of the points you can pick up a support battery with 3 vibro cannons. At first glance the vibro cannons seem like a clearly inferior choice and they are. however...
Vs shooting there's only a single point of toughness difference.
The vibro cannons are getting 3 shots rather than 2.
While on average there's 2 points of strength difference in their hits, the fact remains that both are quite capable of messing up most vehicles, their primary role, and if both are guided then the Vibro cannons arguably become equal with 3 S9 AP2 hits compared to 2 S10 AP1.
The Vibro Cannon battery can take twice as many wounds as the Wrathknight, though to be fair it starts losing efficiency fairly quickly and its saves are not as good.
The Wrathknight clearly wins out as far as mobility is concerned, with jump MC status compared to Artillery.
The Wrathknight also wins in close combat, hands down.

So it seems like I've answered my own question, right? Except that the price difference is so staggering that the vibro cannon battery is far better in the role of ranged tank-killer because it's almost as good for so much less.

Let's take a look at the anti-infantry configuration, and again compare it to our friendly neighborhood support battery.
This time we're using shadow weavers, and coming in and a pip under a third of the price.
Just quickly:
Guns are the same strength, with the shadow weaver going up against vehicles and low-initiative infantry.
AP2 to rending (or close enough).
same range.
Shadow weavers have barrage, allowing them to bring the pain without ever needing to see their foes.

The price difference is so vast that you can have a full shadow weaver battery, throw in a CC-specked wraithlord, and still come out with enough points left over for a 5-man dire avenger squad... including Exarch! That's a big difference!

So help me out here. what is the purpose of this massive target/point sink that isn't better filled with a few cheaper, more focused units?

[HERO]

It has AP2 weapons.

Honestly, one of the reasons why I hate on the WK is because of its weapon. If it had 2x S10 AP2 Blast D-weapons, I would be perfectly fine with its killing potential. However, since it's only a single shot, it's a bit underwhelming.

Surprisingly, what it does give us is the power of a T8 MC in melee.

[Fueldrop]

It has AP2 weapons.
Nice catch.


Surprisingly, what it does give us is the power of a T8 MC in melee.
While this is true, you can take a support battery and CC wraithlord for less than any configuration of Wraithknight, giving you the firepower AND the close-combat killyness while forcing your enemies to concentrate on killing one or the other.

Also, when a Wraithlord is better at hugging cover than you, you know you're in trouble.

[Fueldrop]

Ok, I'm no mathhammer lord but I just want to quickly run the numbers on the theory that a Wraithknight's role is fire magnet.

Wraithknight vs krak missile spam: 6 wounds, S8 v T8, 12 hits.
Wave Serpent APC with holofields (100 points cheaper): 3 hull points, Krak glances on 4+ (Wave serpent shield converts pen to glance on 2+), Jink 4+. 3*2*2 = 12 hits.
In other words, a wave serpent APC has comparable ability to shrug off damage at a significantly lower price.

Adding a forcefield to the Wraithknight increases this ability to take hits by 33%, though the cost either kills its ranged weaponry or increases the price significantly, to the point where you can get 2 wave serpents with holofields for the same price. As a result I cannot really say that this unit makes a cost-effective fire magnet.

[chicop76]

Nice catch.

While this is true, you can take a support battery and CC wraithlord for less than any configuration of Wraithknight, giving you the firepower AND the close-combat killyness while forcing your enemies to concentrate on killing one or the other.

Also, when a Wraithlord is better at hugging cover than you, you know you're in trouble.

For some reason area terrain would give it a cover save. Only vehicles fall unde 25% in area terrain.

It's really 2 40" strength 10 guns at ap 1. All I can say here potential instant death on mst thing on a roll of 6. Blast would be nice, but it can't shot air if you needed him too.

The issue here is you are getting a Nightbringer with like a 100 point reduction. The only models that hit close to his cost is a trygon prime, bare loc, and bare bloodthirster. Out of those 3 models with no buffs he is harder to kill than those other units.

Honestly I don't see why not. He can move 6" and ad6" in the assault phase as movement. Just with my riptides I found my self smashing tanks a lot at armor 13 and up. The knight can do it better. More manuverable than a lord.

Also can a lord deepstrike at an enemy location.

I think the bare lord works for me. It's an anti vehicle threat which is very hard to kill. The wraith lord is semi hard to kill. The wraithlord dies in turn 1-2 compared to a knight 3-4.

Stick the lord in area terrain and if you get +1 armour he now becomes harder to kill.

[calamitycal]

It's kind of ironic that both of the big new releases for the Eldar are largely considered not worth taking or only worth taking in very, very limited roles.


Ok, I'm no mathhammer lord but I just want to quickly run the numbers on the theory that a Wraithknight's role is fire magnet.

Wraithknight vs krak missile spam: 6 wounds, S8 v T8, 12 hits.
Wave Serpent APC with holofields (100 points cheaper): 3 hull points, Krak glances on 4+ (Wave serpent shield converts pen to glance on 2+), Jink 4+. 3*2*2 = 12 hits.
In other words, a wave serpent APC has comparable ability to shrug off damage at a significantly lower price.

Adding a forcefield to the Wraithknight increases this ability to take hits by 33%, though the cost either kills its ranged weaponry or increases the price significantly, to the point where you can get 2 wave serpents with holofields for the same price. As a result I cannot really say that this unit makes a cost-effective fire magnet.

[Learn2Eel]

When using the Wraithknight, people really need to remember that it benefits from cover in the same way that Infantry do. Per the rules, if even a tiny part of its base is touching/over a piece of terrain, it gets a cover save. For a Jump Monstrous Creature, it means you can move twelve inches into terrain and ignore the dangerous terrain test because you have Move Through Cover. Unless you play on a board with very little terrain, finding a cover save for this thing is very easy.

[Sainhann]

Ok, let's talk about the Wrathknight. For anyone who doesn't know, it's a T8 jetpacking monsterous creature with 6 wounds, strength 10 and comes stock with a pair of massive strength 10 ap 1 weapons. it can be outfitted for close combat or with a triple-tapping plasma cannon and blinding forcefield, and can take up to 2 heavy weapons on top of that.

And it is rubbish.

the price tag on this thing is staggering, to the point where I cannot see any reason to take one... particularly because whatever you outfit it to do can be done as well by a different heavy support choice, cheaper.

Let's take a look at the stock standard model. for just over a third of the points you can pick up a support battery with 3 vibro cannons. At first glance the vibro cannons seem like a clearly inferior choice and they are. however...
Vs shooting there's only a single point of toughness difference.
The vibro cannons are getting 3 shots rather than 2.
While on average there's 2 points of strength difference in their hits, the fact remains that both are quite capable of messing up most vehicles, their primary role, and if both are guided then the Vibro cannons arguably become equal with 3 S9 AP2 hits compared to 2 S10 AP1.
The Vibro Cannon battery can take twice as many wounds as the Wrathknight, though to be fair it starts losing efficiency fairly quickly and its saves are not as good.
The Wrathknight clearly wins out as far as mobility is concerned, with jump MC status compared to Artillery.
The Wrathknight also wins in close combat, hands down.

So it seems like I've answered my own question, right? Except that the price difference is so staggering that the vibro cannon battery is far better in the role of ranged tank-killer because it's almost as good for so much less.

Let's take a look at the anti-infantry configuration, and again compare it to our friendly neighborhood support battery.
This time we're using shadow weavers, and coming in and a pip under a third of the price.
Just quickly:
Guns are the same strength, with the shadow weaver going up against vehicles and low-initiative infantry.
AP2 to rending (or close enough).
same range.
Shadow weavers have barrage, allowing them to bring the pain without ever needing to see their foes.

The price difference is so vast that you can have a full shadow weaver battery, throw in a CC-specked wraithlord, and still come out with enough points left over for a 5-man dire avenger squad... including Exarch! That's a big difference!

So help me out here. what is the purpose of this massive target/point sink that isn't better filled with a few cheaper, more focused units?

To have some of the GW customers to hand over money for a model that is not the best Heavy Support choice.

War Walkers for just 30 points less can have 22 more shots than it.

There are individuals who have gotten two of these things.

Though with what GW is putting out so far; the Riptide for Tau, this for Eldar and soon the Lord of Battle for Chaos you could come up with some rules and fight some mini titan battles.

Going to be interesting to see just what the Imperial Guard and Space Marines will be getting.

They won't be worth the money either but they should be interesting.

[chicop76]

When using the Wraithknight, people really need to remember that it benefits from cover in the same way that Infantry do. Per the rules, if even a tiny part of its base is touching/over a piece of terrain, it gets a cover save. For a Jump Monstrous Creature, it means you can move twelve inches into terrain and ignore the dangerous terrain test because you have Move Through Cover. Unless you play on a board with very little terrain, finding a cover save for this thing is very easy.

Which goes back to why would I even bother with the +5 invulnerable save.

[Sainhann]

Ok, I'm no mathhammer lord but I just want to quickly run the numbers on the theory that a Wraithknight's role is fire magnet.

Wraithknight vs krak missile spam: 6 wounds, S8 v T8, 12 hits.
Wave Serpent APC with holofields (100 points cheaper): 3 hull points, Krak glances on 4+ (Wave serpent shield converts pen to glance on 2+), Jink 4+. 3*2*2 = 12 hits.
In other words, a wave serpent APC has comparable ability to shrug off damage at a significantly lower price.

Adding a forcefield to the Wraithknight increases this ability to take hits by 33%, though the cost either kills its ranged weaponry or increases the price significantly, to the point where you can get 2 wave serpents with holofields for the same price. As a result I cannot really say that this unit makes a cost-effective fire magnet.

Thing about the Force Field it is very likely to be Blinding your own troops which would not be good for you.

[Learn2Eel]

To have some of the GW customers to hand over money for a model that is not the best Heavy Support choice.

War Walkers for just 30 points less can have 22 more shots than it.

There are individuals who have gotten two of these things.

Though with what GW is putting out so far; the Riptide for Tau, this for Eldar and soon the Lord of Battle for Chaos you could come up with some rules and fight some mini titan battles.

Going to be interesting to see just what the Imperial Guard and Space Marines will be getting.

They won't be worth the money either but they should be interesting.

Actually, if GW really wanted your money and tried to get you to buy it for such a reason, the Wraithknight would have amazing rules ala the Heldrake. I'm happy that it is a good, but not must-take, choice.


Which goes back to why would I even bother with the +5 invulnerable save.

Well, it is very strong in melee - where cover doesn't matter - and sometimes it may not be possible to get into terrain without sacrificing your shooting.


Thing about the Force Field it is very likely to be Blinding your own troops which would not be good for you.

Blind works against Initiative, and the entire army - aside from Wraith constructs - is I5, meaning they only ever fail on a 6. Even Wraith units only fail on a 5. Blind is designed with (non-Battlesuit) Tau/Orks/Necrons in mind. Plus, Blind tests are resolved per unit, not per model, so it isn't like you have to take many anyway.

[Fueldrop]

Thing about the Force Field it is very likely to be Blinding your own troops which would not be good for you.

Well in that case it's suddenly totally worth all those points! I'll take 3!!! [/sarcasm]

On a completely different topic, am I the only one annoyed that Vipers with EMLs can't get Flakk missiles? Our ground to air arsenal seems fairly limited, and our flyers are something of a laughing stock. Then again, I'm with the camp that thinks flyers belong in Apocalypse, not regular 40K, so my opinion there can be safely ignored.

[Learn2Eel]

Well in that case it's suddenly totally worth all those points! I'll take 3!!! [/sarcasm]

On a completely different topic, am I the only one annoyed that Vipers with EMLs can't get Flakk missiles? Our ground to air arsenal seems fairly limited, and our flyers are something of a laughing stock. Then again, I'm with the camp that thinks flyers belong in Apocalypse, not regular 40K, so my opinion there can be safely ignored.

The only 6E army with multitudes of Skyfire (or tools to circumvent it, such as Markerlights) is Tau. Even Dark Angels with Tactical Squads that can take Flakk missiles still don't have enough anti-air. The Crimson Hunter is quite easily the best anti-air flyer released in this edition, so as long as you use it wisely you won't be lacking for anti-air as much as a few other armies I can think of. The reality is that all armies, barring Tau, released in 6E have limited anti-air, but Eldar have better tools to deal with them than most.

[deinol]

As an infantry, doesn't putting a unit (like guardians) in front of it provide cover? Or did they FAQ that?

(Go re-read shooting through squads.)

[Emerald Rose Widow]

Well for many it is a cool model, and not everyone looks at things from a strictly competitive mindset, some of us just want new models and cool models. You don't like it, don't take it, some people like it.

[chicop76]

I wouldn't rely on it on combat. Personally I see dead giant robo in combat. Poison gaunts kill it, Daemoettes kill it. Genestealers and harlequins kill it. Hammerhand deathcul kill it. Bloodletter with upgrades kill it. Thunderhammer and stormshile terms kill it. Swarmlord murders it. I can go on. It is great against differant units. The shield is helpful if you fought low I models. Since the models that have good combat where they can kill it blinding those units is really hard to do unless you use banshees. No one plays with banshees, so no combat.

I think it's a decent hard to kill ranged platform, but I think it should select what it should fight. Veterans with melta bombs can kill it, blind works nice here.

[Learn2Eel]

I wouldn't rely on it on combat. Personally I see dead giant robo in combat. Poison gaunts kill it, Daemoettes kill it. Genestealers and harlequins kill it. Hammerhand deathcul kill it. Bloodletter with upgrades kill it. Thunderhammer and stormshile terms kill it. Swarmlord murders it. I can go on. It is great against differant units. The shield is helpful if you fought low I models. Since the models that have good combat where they can kill it blinding those units is really hard to do unless you use banshees. No one plays with banshees, so no combat.

I think it's a decent hard to kill ranged platform, but I think it should select what it should fight. Veterans with melta bombs can kill it, blind works nice here.

Those are really the most prominent examples though. It can charge into the vast majority of units in the game and expect to win.

[AnEnemy]

Arguing that rock will crush scissors in a game of Rock, Paper, Scissors so you should never use scissors is silly. Scissors still cut paper pretty well.

[Learn2Eel]

Arguing that rock will crush scissors in a game of Rock, Paper, Scissors so you should never use scissors is silly. Scissors still cut paper pretty well.

Exactly. If I need a line-breaker or a fire magnet, I know where to look.

[MajorWesJanson]

our flyers are something of a laughing stock.

Not a laughing stock, but balanced about right. They are glass hammers with high manueverability. It's just the unholy trinity (Baledrake, Nightscythe, Vendetta) that makes the modern, more balanced fliers, bad.

[Demonus]

Arguing that rock will crush scissors in a game of Rock, Paper, Scissors so you should never use scissors is silly. Scissors still cut paper pretty well.

"Good ole rock, nothing beats rock."

Ill buy one cause it looks bad ***. Of course Ill wait to get it for a discounted price, with gift certificates I receive from Father's Day or my Birthday, thus paying about $50 for it :D

[DarkLink]

I play with a Dreadknight all the time, and I can say that a Wraithknight is pretty good. In fact, it's cheaper than a Dreadknight and just the fact that it comes with more wounds makes it pretty solid. I laugh when I hear people complain about how 'fragile' T8 with 6 wounds is.

If you know what you're doing, a fast, extremely tough model with good firepower in both assault and shooting can easily win the game for you, even if the model itself might not live through the game. To think that just because there are things out there that can possible kill it it sucks is laughable. If you, as a player, are halfway competent, you can pretty easily make it so that your opponent has to expend more effort killing the Wraithknight than they can afford to.

Facing Dark Eldar? Who cares, Wave Serpents hard counter DE venom spam lists. Daemonettes, genestealers, poison gaunts? Shoot them to death with your other units while your Wraithknight kills their MCs. And when you face the dozens of units that can't easily deal with a Wraithknight, let the Wraithknight walk through them. And being Jump Infantry with Move through Cover, you have no excuse for never having a 5+ cover save and you can get it without slowing yourself down at all.

Also, THSS Terminators trump pretty much all MCs, and the Swarmlord is just about the penultimate single model in the game in assault. Seeing as the Wraithknight is not a pure assault unit, I don't see why anyone would expect it to beat either in assault.

[Learn2Eel]

I play with a Dreadknight all the time, and I can say that a Wraithknight is pretty good. In fact, it's cheaper than a Dreadknight and just the fact that it comes with more wounds makes it pretty solid. I laugh when I hear people complain about how 'fragile' T8 with 6 wounds is.

If you know what you're doing, a fast, extremely tough model with good firepower in both assault and shooting can easily win the game for you, even if the model itself might not live through the game. To think that just because there are things out there that can possible kill it it sucks is laughable. If you, as a player, are halfway competent, you can pretty easily make it so that your opponent has to expend more effort killing the Wraithknight than they can afford to.

Facing Dark Eldar? Who cares, Wave Serpents hard counter DE venom spam lists. Daemonettes, genestealers, poison gaunts? Shoot them to death with your other units while your Wraithknight kills their MCs. And when you face the dozens of units that can't easily deal with a Wraithknight, let the Wraithknight walk through them. And being Jump Infantry with Move through Cover, you have no excuse for never having a 5+ cover save and you can get it without slowing yourself down at all.

Also, THSS Terminators trump pretty much all MCs, and the Swarmlord is just about the penultimate single model in the game in assault. Seeing as the Wraithknight is not a pure assault unit, I don't see why anyone would expect it to beat either in assault.

Agreed with all of this. The Wraithknight has something that those combat-oriented monsters don't, and that is very decent firepower.

[Sly]

"So help me out here. what is the purpose of this massive target/point sink that isn't better filled with a few cheaper, more focused units? "

Well, it is in some ways equivalent to a pair of Wraithlords glued together. Better in some ways (only needs one buff spell, moves faster), worse in others (can't split fire). So, is there a purpose to merging two Wraithlords together? Well, two Wraithlords leave you with only one HS slot for other fire support units, while this leaves you with two HS slots. For many lists, that is a major gain.

[chicop76]

Agreed with all of this. The Wraithknight has something that those combat-oriented monsters don't, and that is very decent firepower.

If you say so. It does have better ap shooting than any MC I can think off. I think it's a bit much to say more shooting. You still have to be selective vs other MC's in combat. Iron Arm and Warp Speed makes a differance in combat, having force weapons does too, or having armour bane with a ton of attacks.

If a trygon prime fought a wraithknight, assuming trygon does not have endurance or knight have enfeeble on him I think it would be close. It's on re roll to wound 3 attacks wounding on 2s vs 4 attacks wounding on 2s. The advantage is the trygon who is re rolling on 3s putting 3 wounds on the knight and the knight putting 2. If the knight takes the +5 invulnerable it would than make it a fair fight. Either they would kill each other at that point or the knight kills the trygon if the trygon rolls a 6 and get blinded.

If you want to include buffs and debuffs the wraithknight can be lowered to toughness 5. 6 is more than average. If lowered to 5 the trygon would win due to instant death. Also it also depends on how many shots the knight got in before combat and who assaults who.

My point is a tyrgon is not something as a deamon player is scared of. Heck not scared of it at all, unless I am playing I don't know umm yeah not scared of it.

My solution for the swarlord is daemonettes. It kills it dead, got to love +3 invulnerable saves and re rolling hits. Everyone els just shoot it to death.

When I see wraithknight I think Nightbringer. The major differance is besides ignoring invulnerables saves on has a +3 normal save and the other had a +4 invulnerable. I have killed a nightbringer very easily in 1 turn with daemons, nids, tau, eldar, sisters( they made it look like a walk in the park I should say witch hunters), and old grey knights who can ignore invulnerables too, who cares I need 6s to wound. Seeing the knight as being much easir to deal in combat, Nightbringer was a pain in the butt. I can safely say not worried about it.

Heck thanks to daemons, chaos marines, and Tau I am already geared to handle it due to 2-3 riptide spam and broadside spam.

That all being said unless I do the old psyker battle squad( lower leadership to 2) and come in with a calladius with a strength 8 flamer against toughness 2 bit, which instant kills the knight. It's not that easy to kill the knight and can't one shooted, aside from a well place enfeeble and a zonathorpe blasting it with a strength 10 hit. It will require most armies to shoot it to death. My bad 3enfeebles and zonathorpe shot.

Not like a dreadknight with force weapon can kill it either.

[Apollinarius]

For some reason area terrain would give it a cover save. Only vehicles fall unde 25% in area terrain.

It's really 2 40" strength 10 guns at ap 1. All I can say here potential instant death on mst thing on a roll of 6. Blast would be nice, but it can't shot air if you needed him too.

The issue here is you are getting a Nightbringer with like a 100 point reduction. The only models that hit close to his cost is a trygon prime, bare loc, and bare bloodthirster. Out of those 3 models with no buffs he is harder to kill than those other units.

Honestly I don't see why not. He can move 6" and ad6" in the assault phase as movement. Just with my riptides I found my self smashing tanks a lot at armor 13 and up. The knight can do it better. More manuverable than a lord.

Also can a lord deepstrike at an enemy location.

I think the bare lord works for me. It's an anti vehicle threat which is very hard to kill. The wraith lord is semi hard to kill. The wraithlord dies in turn 1-2 compared to a knight 3-4.

Stick the lord in area terrain and if you get +1 armour he now becomes harder to kill.

The 25% model coverage to give cover is for everything now, including MCs and regular models. Area terrain has to actually obscure 25% of the model. If the bush only covers a Wraithknight's toe, it doesn't provide cover.

On the other hand, since a Wraithknight's LOS if from so high up, he gets to ignore a lot of area terrain cover that units might hide behind. Oh, you found a tree? But I shoot you from over the tree, so no cover for you.

That makes the twin-linked S6 AP2 3 shot blast weapon really powerful against infantry of any kind.

[chicop76]

The 25% model coverage to give cover is for everything now, including MCs and regular models. Area terrain has to actually obscure 25% of the model. If the bush only covers a Wraithknight's toe, it doesn't provide cover.

On the other hand, since a Wraithknight's LOS if from so high up, he gets to ignore a lot of area terrain cover that units might hide behind. Oh, you found a tree? But I shoot you from over the tree, so no cover for you.

That makes the twin-linked S6 AP2 3 shot blast weapon really powerful against infantry of any kind.


Can you give me page referances please. Not that I don't believe you, but a referance would be nice.

Pg 18. 2nd para determining cover save. It goes into the 25%. If shooting through cover or intervening models the 25% is akey factor. Hice you may need a knight behind a lord behind a guard behind a guadrdian, lol.

Now let's turn to pg. 91. It talks about area terrain " Area terrain is always difficult terrain. Models in are terrain receieve a 5+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured. Models that gtg in are terrain receive a +2 to their cover save, rather than +1

That's quoted strait from the book let me quote one more time " ... receive a 5+, regardless of whether or not the are 25% obscured...Can I get an Amen!

Vehicles on pg 75. The very first sentance " Vehicles are not obscured simply for being inside area terrain. The 25% rule given above takes precedence.

Now Apollo where does it says a MC have to get 25% to get the area terrain rule. Please don't look in a 5th edition codex, because we are playing 6th edition now. Quote where this rule I can't find is. Back up what you say. Facts no opinions please.

[Pssyche]

"Area terrain has to actually obscure 25% of the model. If the bush only covers a Wraithknight's toe, it doesn't provide cover."

Wrong.
Rulebook. p91.
"Area terrain is always difficult terrain. Models in area terrain receive a 5+cover save, regardless of whether or
not they are 25% obscured."


Edit...
Dammit! Ninja'd...

[chicop76]

"Area terrain has to actually obscure 25% of the model. If the bush only covers a Wraithknight's toe, it doesn't provide cover."

Wrong.
Rulebook. p91.
"Area terrain is always difficult terrain. Models in area terrain receive a 5+cover save, regardless of whether or
not they are 25% obscured."


Edit...
Dammit! Ninja'd...
Yche

Here is an Amen my Brother! Amen! Pssyche 2nd's the motion.

[DarkLink]

Even better, MCs have Move through Cover and ignore Dangerous Terrain, so a Jump MC can go wherever he pleases without being slowed down by anything but enemy models. No reason you shouldn't pretty much always have a cover save, as long as you use an appropriate amount of terrain on your table.

[Sainhann]

If you know what you're doing, a fast, extremely tough model with good firepower in both assault and shooting can easily win the game for you, even if the model itself might not live through the game. To think that just because there are things out there that can possible kill it it sucks is laughable. If you, as a player, are halfway competent, you can pretty easily make it so that your opponent has to expend more effort killing the Wraithknight than they can afford to.

You do know that it only has 4 attacks at WS 4 so against most things in Combat it will need 4's to hit so will be averaging only 2 hits per Close Combat phase and yes it will most likely be wounding on both of those but not always.

This is not a model that you want to get into close combat with anything other than a vehicle because against infantry they could be keeping it busy for several rounds/turns.

As for the firepower, well two shots is jack for firepower sure you can spend the extra 40 points and give it two Scatter Lasers but then it point cost will be 280 but you will now have 8 strength 6 shots at BS4 that will be Twin-Linked due to Laser Lock.

This thing is big but it will scare none of your opponents.

If they can they will shoot it to death (Eldar, Imperial Guard, Tau etc...) volume of fire.
If they can wound it Close Combat they will just Assault it (Orks with Power Klaws, Marines with Power Gloves)

If they can't they will just kill off your other Eldar and just keep it busy with some regular troops.

There are other models that this does not even want to get close to because they will tear it to pieces in Close Combat.

The reason why it not take good is because they give it a Toughness value rather than a Armor Value.

Sure it is Toughness 8 but as other have pointed out there are so many weapons available to everyone that can overcome this; Rending Weapons, Poison Weapons, Sniper Weapons etc...

Hell, the Eldar Rangers are just 10 points more for five than the Imperial Guard Ratling Snipers so for just 180 points you can have 15 of them the Imperial would be 150 points for 15. Both are viable units if you know you are going to be facing one of these and one is about the most you would ever face since the point cost for two is just not worth it.

Here are the Heavy Support Choices for Eldar:

Dark Reapers - pricey but they do kill MEQ's a unit of 8 (the same point cost as the Wraithguard) will have 16 shots.
Vaul's Wrath Support Battery - 90 points for a full Battery and the cost in points to upgrade to D-Cannons is just not worth it.
Fire Prism - 125 point for one and I would not be upgrading the Catapults to Cannons its main weapon is very capable of dealing if a variety of targets
Night Spinner - 115 points good for barrage but there are better choices
Falcon - will still be used since so many players have them but it only brings the ability to transport a small unit like Fire Dragons but the Wave Serpent is better.
War Walker Squadron - for 210 points can bring a ton of Fire Power (I.E. 24 strength 6 shots)
Wraithlord - Half the point cost of a Wraithknight but does not come with the heavy weapons unless you pay for them I believe that most players will not even consider them
Wraithknight - 240 point base but fully upgraded could it above 300 points

Now you can only have three of these and if you do take three you are very likely not going to need to cut back some where else. Due to this I would put War Walkers first and then Fire Prisms second and that is two choices right there. The bottom two for me would be Wraithlord and Night Spinner.

Here is what I would take.

1 Squadron of War Walkers
2 x Fire Prisms

Total points 460 points but these provide a ton of firepower to you.

[G00dySmiley]

I proxied one with a flier base and clear stem a few teims to try them... and ultimatly i did buy the model this saturday. the heavy wraith cannons are awesome and will punch through most vehicles. against individual units of infantry with special characters soften up the squad till jsut the independent character is left and pop it with the wraithlord. mass fire from wave serpants does well here.

i personally like the upgrade to suncannon /shield and a single scatter laser. the 5++ is nice but mostly it is about the twin linkes str 6 ap2 heavy 3 blast. that can end a charging squad of th/ss termies day pretty badly and jump MC so 12' mve means you can get around pretty well and kite threats while dumping ap2 blasts on things.

last option the sword is... fun to play with but really not worth ti, 5++ is nice but losing the guns for only a mastercrafted sword with +1 str when you are already str 10 not worth it... it is as big as a wraithlord though so there is that, would put on two shouldermounted star cannons if i went this route

[chicop76]

Even better, MCs have Move through Cover and ignore Dangerous Terrain, so a Jump MC can go wherever he pleases without being slowed down by anything but enemy models. No reason you shouldn't pretty much always have a cover save, as long as you use an appropriate amount of terrain on your table.

Exactly my point. Why by something that is easy for you to obtain. Throw in shrouding you have a +3 cover save and +1armour for a +2 save.

Even though there are many differant ways too easily kill the knight, it is still tough to kill over all. Sprinkle in buffs it's much harder to handle. Warwalkers die to even stadard marines shooting.

I can see one knight and two prisoms easy. Personally I think 2 or more knights is the way to go. I seen battle reports that they soak up a lot of fire the 6"+ 2d6" movement makes them hard to ignore. It can get 24" across to where you want it. That means if you went combat it can easily do so in turn 2.

However I think it should stay out of combat and only engage when it needs too. It comes off as a riptide with anti tank options and a bit of close combat.

If a squad full of melta bombers can kill it than it should generally stay out of combat unless needed to. It still have to be selective just as the wraithlord does.

I'm disapointed with the Avatar costing as much as it does.

[G00dySmiley]

Exactly my point. Why by something that is easy for you to obtain. Throw in shrouding you have a +3 cover save and +1armour for a +2 save.

Even though there are many differant ways too easily kill the knight, it is still tough to kill over all. Sprinkle in buffs it's much harder to handle. Warwalkers die to even stadard marines shooting.

I can see one knight and two prisoms easy. Personally I think 2 or more knights is the way to go. I seen battle reports that they soak up a lot of fire the 6"+ 2d6" movement makes them hard to ignore. It can get 24" across to where you want it. That means if you went combat it can easily do so in turn 2.

However I think it should stay out of combat and only engage when it needs too. It comes off as a riptide with anti tank options and a bit of close combat.

If a squad full of melta bombers can kill it than it should generally stay out of combat unless needed to. It still have to be selective just as the wraithlord does.

I'm disapointed with the Avatar costing as much as it does.

maybe i am blind and super cool if the can move that much but how? they are jump monstrous creature and i can't find anything in the rulebook beyond 12" move for jet pack on page 47

[Defenestratus]

maybe i am blind and super cool if the can move that much but how? they are jump monstrous creature and i can't find anything in the rulebook beyond 12" move for jet pack on page 47

They can't... I think chicop, in his normal "difficult to understand and read" prose has gotten the WK rules mixed up with the warp spider rules.

The WK can move 12" and run an additional d6".

Furthermore its going to be tough to get conceal on it since that warlock power only buffs the warlock and his squad - and warlocks can't join WK's :P


I can see one knight and two prisoms easy.

This has been like nails on a chalkboard to me... its prisms. No O-face.

[chicop76]

Lol. It's jump not jet. Well it can move 18" and can assault 24". Which means still can assault turn 2 and changes nothing. Not 24", but 18".

[AlaitocJib]

They can't... I think chicop, in his normal "difficult to understand and read" prose has gotten the WK rules mixed up with the warp spider rules.

The WK can move 12" and run an additional d6".

Furthermore its going to be tough to get conceal on it since that warlock power only buffs the warlock and his squad - and warlocks can't join WK's :P



This has been like nails on a chalkboard to me... its prisms. No O-face.


You've said everything I've thought since I've read a single post from him...not sorry to say. I just dont get it.

[Power Klawz]

Jump infantry can move 12 inches in the movement phase or 6 inches and then reroll charge distance in the assault phase and benefit from impact hits.

It can't move 18 inches, and it can't charge 24 inches. I also have no idea what you're talking about in general.

The wraithknight is a big scary monster that will shoot the hell out of your army while dancing around like a giant space elf jerk if you don't do something about it. It can fight in close combat but that's not really its intended purpose. It will do great against rank and file and bog down certain assault units for a long while, it won't do great against high strength assault units or more extreme close combat monstrous creatures. It will punk a riptide in a fist fight though.

Obviously, a bloodthirster will bite its face off and ask for seconds, that's what bloodthirsters do. This whole thread seems like an exercise in pointing out the obvious. It does what it does, it does it very well. If you can't envision yourself getting 300 points of awesome out of it in a given game, then don't use it.

[chicop76]

Jump infantry can move 12 inches in the movement phase or 6 inches and then reroll charge distance in the assault phase and benefit from impact hits.

It can't move 18 inches, and it can't charge 24 inches. I also have no idea what you're talking about in general.

Turn 1
Movement phase
12" movement
Shooting phase
D6" movement

Total turn 1 movement= 18" possible or 13-18".

Turn 2
Movement Phase
12"
Assault Phase
2d6"

Total possible turn 2 movement addidng movement and assault movement together 14-24"

Turn 1 average rolling plus movement is 15.5", add 12 " from turn 2 movement 27.5 ". Which easily puts you into the other plus add in 7" from assault movement. That's 34.5" it can cross in two turns.

Max assault distance counting run, movement and assault is 42" in two turns of movement.

Which means it is rather easy to fly, run in turn one and than fly and assault in turn two.

Oh 12"+ 12" = 24". Which means it is possible to assault a target 24" away including your movement.

Since you no understand one more time.

12" movement and 2d6" assault movement give you a threat range of 24". Meaning if you move and than assult you can move and assault 24" across the table.

Remember the gap between both armies is only 24". Not counting any scout or possible infiltrate moves.

[Power Klawz]

Yeah... its a jump monstrous creature. That's how jump units move. It will not reliably move 18 inches with a run since its not fleet, and if it runs it can't shoot which basically defeats the purpose of taking it. It won't reliable charge 12 inches especially since it can't reroll any of those dice since you used its jump for the movement phase.

So the numbers you said are best case scenario when the unit is used improperly. The way you stated them was very misleading and made no sense, the way you restated them makes more sense and is comprehensible, but still not terribly applicable to the actual game.

If you're charging at 12 inches what you are really doing is giving the enemy a free shooting phase at BS1.

[Sainhann]

So it is now going to charge across the table and get into close combat with it 4 attacks which will need 4's to hit against most anything.

Nah, not what you should use it for.

Use it movement and jump ability to get into a good position so that when your opponent get one of his vehicles near it you can pounce on it.

While I will never own one but if I did have one Close Combat is the last thing I want it to do.

Someone mentioned Melta Bombs but how about Fusion Guns I can see it now:

You have it move forward and your Eldar opponent move his Wave Serpent close to hit and disembarks a Full 10 man squad of Fire Dragons who will very quickly turn it into molten metal.

Or it got to close to a squad of Veteran Imperial Guard who have Melta Bombs so much for it because it just might kill a few of them but it is more than likely going down. Even more so if they other units fired a few Las Cannon shots into it before they assault.

Yes War Walkers with it AV of 10 means that Marines shooting at them can glance them but a squad of 10 shooting at 24 inches will only get around 1-2 glances and thing is with a Squadron you can take three glancing hits before you have to lose one.

Plus they do have Battle Focus so can move from LOS cover and shoot and them move back into the cover.

No matter now you cut it a Squadron of War Walkers bring more to the table than the WK.

[Asuryan]

Yes War Walkers with it AV of 10 means that Marines shooting at them can glance them but a squad of 10 shooting at 24 inches will only get around 1-2 glances and thing is with a Squadron you can take three glancing hits before you have to lose one.

Plus they do have Battle Focus so can move from LOS cover and shoot and them move back into the cover.

No matter now you cut it a Squadron of War Walkers bring more to the table than the WK.

I disagree with this, Walkers with star cannons only get 12 shots, shuriken cannons get 18, and scatter lasers get 24, with out going into mathhammer with only the first ignoring armor and the 2nd only on 6's the twin linked blats are a way bigger threat than the walkers. and while I admit that if I had a LoS blocking piece of terrain that I could use in every battle and have it positioned perfectly for my walkers then awesome. as that is not always the case and in my meta never the case I have to rely on the 5+ invuln save which is the same as the WK. plus the walkers could be easily blown up now added in the open toped +1. I have only used the WK 3 times in 1000, 1850, and a team 2200 (1100 per person) game. only died in the 1850 and made well over its points in all three games.

And its been said before it you ignore the WK it does its thing unhindered if you shoot it or charge it that's some other unit your not shooting or attacking, where as walkers anything that threatens the WK will pop the walkers and charging them with regular guys will kill them.

[daboarder]

can well all stop B*tching about the wraithknight, especially when most of those doing so have no idea how much MC's cost in another codex, look at CSM, Nids, Daemons for an idea on how expensive a T8 6W 3+save MC would be.

[chicop76]

Wow. I said multiple times it's not a good combat unit. Someone said it couldn't get across the board and I stated how. Also I stated if you choose to go assault you could get onto assault in turn 2.

Ok if you sword and shield you not shooting right? Might as well run.

I only get mad when people selectively take things out of context and ignore the rest of what I been saying, and then state the same things I said 5x. If you are going to critize a tctic maybe you should go back and read.

Honestly at this point I think it really not that great. The only saving grace.Is it's range and the fact it has 2 short ranged rail guns. in case you want to argue something I been saying all along, but Two Fire Prism's combined can fire 2 strength 9 lance shots at greater range, 2 small blast, or 2 large blast for slightly more than one wraith knight. When I look at that it makes the knight less viable in my eyes. Two wraithlords at base are the same as a knight, but with upgrades the knight turns into a better buy since two lords with both of them with lance weapons cost more than a knight.

The fact the knight can fire only 2 weapons at a time and taking any other options makes the knight rather costly. I mean you can take scatter laser and the sunfire, but why. Doing so increase cost greatly. You are putting your self in a situation where gear a lone is coming close to the cost of another squad of troops. 300 points for a knight is way too much.

In my opinionThe three shot blast weapon is bad. The reason is bad it is 3 blast weapons.

Here let me simplify:
3" blast weapon
2" seperation of models
1" diameter base

If you center base on the model that's 1" around the model. Since the other model can be 2" away you won't hit if centered. You can play with the centering which can get you close to 1.5 and not enough for the 2" needed to hit the other model

I know the base is 1" due to you needed to guess the range on barrage weapons and you couldn't premeasure.
E
Anyway the blast should hit only 3 models if it hits right on. I mean all 3 blast, so you paying double the starcannon cost to get one more star cannon shot and drop the two strength 10 weapons and gain an invulnerable save which you can easily get a cover save. Not to mention you spending more point to give it a second weapon.

What is the knight good at. Getting shot at. The riptide does that better with. Better save and a +3 invulnerable. The tide can dish out the same amount or even more fire power if you go the sun route at a much cheaper cost. The two rail guns have the tide beat. However a tide can beat a knight due to a 3+ invulnerable save and can have feel no pain and two sheild drones.

[chicop76]

can well all stop B*tching about the wraithknight, especially when most of those doing so have no idea how much MC's cost in another codex, look at CSM, Nids, Daemons for an idea on how expensive a T8 6W 3+save MC would be.

No one has a t8 MC, but Eldar. The only thing that comes close is Ku'Gath and the Great Unclean One they put you back usually 300 points.

Oh I forgot Iron Arm, lol. Unclean One is under 200, but you want to max him out which puts him close to 300. 2 greater, 1 lesser and Master 3 in Biomancy.

[daboarder]

No one has a t8 MC, but Eldar. The only thing that comes close is Ku'Gath and the Great Unclean One they put you back usually 300 points.

Oh I forgot Iron Arm, lol. Unclean One is under 200, but you want to max him out which puts him close to 300. 2 greater, 1 lesser and Master 3 in Biomancy.

That was my point mate, its appropriately priced when you compare it to its contemporaries.

[Power Klawz]

If the entire enemy army is dispersed to precisely 2" squad coherency they're going to have a very difficult time finding cover for the majority of their models, not to mention decrease the efficacy of their shooting since a 10 man squad at 2" all around is going to be at least 10 inches at it's widest point, putting one model 9 inches further away than the closest model to any particular target in any direction... not to mention the geometric tedium you're going to have to deal with and maintain while moving. Its an untenable ideal, especially for large model count armies. Great tactic for smaller squads that will be trudging through the open field like terminators, but then ap2 blasts have a very interesting interaction with terminators in that they force them to run immediately after deep striking to avoid losing 300 points worth of dudes to one salvo of fire, meaning they can't unleash their ranged attack the turn they arrive which is good for you. This is especially rough on Deathwing terminators who are amazing the turn they arrive.

Its really a choice between hunting vehicles and high toughness targets or wiping out squads. 3 str6 ap2 blasts will kill more everything except vehicles than 2 str 10 ap2 destroyer shots. Its also got a foot more range, which means you can reach out and touch that deep striking terminator squad no matter where you are on the board. Add in a starcannon and you're tossing around 5 ap2 blasts a turn, that's scary no matter what army you're playing, the fact that its at 36 inches means turn one you're wiping squads that don't have great cover.

I can see 3 builds that pop out to me.

Plasma spam
Wraithknight w/ Suncannon and scattershield, starcannon 300pts

Should be amazing against everything really. Tears up MEQ, eats through hordes at a prodigious rate, just can't threaten vehicles outside of melee, but hey its a str10 MC, if you need a land raider take care of just go punt it with your giant robot foot.

Anti-vehicle
Wraithknight 240pts

You can only fire two weapons a turn, you want those str10 destroyers, and every other options is Str6 which isn't ideal for vehicle hunting. Scatter laser is an interesting choice, but would you rather have 2 shots or 1 twin linked shot? Its just 20 extra points that don't help you accomplish you goal so don't bother.

Melee
Ghostglaive and scattershield, scatter laser, starcannon or shuriken cannon 285-290

The ghostglaive gives you a reroll which is good for your average WS. invuln save is best in CC, scatter laser is pretty ubiquitous with a high rate of fire and gives twin linked to the other weapons. Shuriken cannon or starcannon depending on taste, you save 5 points with the shuriken. I wouldn't recommend this build unless you have a very specific battleplan in mind, if you want a close combat monstrous creature you'll need to head to the HQ section or take a lord instead.

You could also just double down on starcannons with the melee build, or double up shuricannons for the budget build. Two scatter lasers just seems redundant though.

[rle68]

I wouldn't rely on it on combat. Personally I see dead giant robo in combat. Poison gaunts kill it, Daemoettes kill it. Genestealers and harlequins kill it. Hammerhand deathcul kill it. Bloodletter with upgrades kill it. Thunderhammer and stormshile terms kill it. Swarmlord murders it. I can go on. It is great against differant units. The shield is helpful if you fought low I models. Since the models that have good combat where they can kill it blinding those units is really hard to do unless you use banshees. No one plays with banshees, so no combat.

I think it's a decent hard to kill ranged platform, but I think it should select what it should fight. Veterans with melta bombs can kill it, blind works nice here.

nvm .. dang how did i miss that one

[daboarder]

edit: ninja'd

[Power Klawz]

Veterans with melta bombs can kill it

did i miss the part where this isnt a vehicle?

You can use grenades in assault against monstrous creatures. I don't think a unit of vets will take down a wraith knight however. If they're somehow miraculously unharmed when they charge and the knight doesn't have any non-blast weapons and therefore can't overwatch (although why a jump unit is somehow being charge by footslogging guard I don't know.) that still means the knight will go first, kill 2 guardsmen, suffer 8 attacks back and on average take 2 wounds (if he doesn't have an invuln save.) That's not exactly amazing success.

[rle68]

You can use grenades in assault against monstrous creatures. I don't think a unit of vets will take down a wraith knight however. If they're somehow miraculously unharmed when they charge and the knight doesn't have any non-blast weapons and therefore can't overwatch (although why a jump unit is somehow being charge by footslogging guard I don't know.) that still means the knight will go first, kill 2 guardsmen, suffer 8 attacks back and at worst take 2 wounds (if he doesn't have an invuln save.) That's not exactly amazing success.

Thanks i caught that...

[Sainhann]

You can use grenades in assault against monstrous creatures. I don't think a unit of vets will take down a wraith knight however. If they're somehow miraculously unharmed when they charge and the knight doesn't have any non-blast weapons and therefore can't overwatch (although why a jump unit is somehow being charge by footslogging guard I don't know.) that still means the knight will go first, kill 2 guardsmen, suffer 8 attacks back and on average take 2 wounds (if he doesn't have an invuln save.) That's not exactly amazing success.

So they take two wounds off of it and only lose 2 Guardsmen two me that is a win-win for the Imperial Guard because of the relative point values. Plus there are still 8 Guardsmen left and it is wrapped up in Close Combat so you don't even need to worry about it.

[Power Klawz]

I guess you could take some extra weapons on the dual wraith cannon knight for overwatch purposes, or if it kills everything worth str10 shots and wants to start mowing down infantry, but 30 to 40 extra points seems steep for that flexibility. You should be able to avoid most close combat by virtue of being a rocket powered robot, and anything that can chase you down is unlikely to have high strength close combat attacks in abundance.

Ok, a jetpacking death company with spammed fists... but man that's going to be more expensive than the knight so honestly they deserve to kick its butt.

EDIT: Yeah ok... because those plucky guardsmen for some reason can turbo boost now. I all ready mentioned how ridiculous the scenario is in which you allow your knight to be charged by vets, if anything you can just unload on them the turn before they get to you if you don't feel like running away. They are not a credible threat, stop trying to make it seem like they are.

I mean, looking through my guard dex right now and vets don't seem to have any options available to them that would facilitate catching up to a wraithknight that doesn't want to be caught up with. They can't infiltrate, and even if they could it'd take more than one squad because a lone vet squad is going to get vaprized by the knight and whatever other eldar are in the area. They can't deep strike, they can't scout and they don't have access to an assault vehicle. Odds of catching up with a jump MC that just wants to dance around 36 inches from its target and blow it to pieces? Pretty damn close to zero.

Oh and if they take melta bombs they don't get better armor or stealth, so they're toughness 3 with 5+ saves chasing a jump MC through no man's land. You know what's really great at killing 5+ armor? Eldar.

[Sainhann]

I disagree with this, Walkers with star cannons only get 12 shots, shuriken cannons get 18, and scatter lasers get 24, with out going into mathhammer with only the first ignoring armor and the 2nd only on 6's the twin linked blats are a way bigger threat than the walkers. and while I admit that if I had a LoS blocking piece of terrain that I could use in every battle and have it positioned perfectly for my walkers then awesome. as that is not always the case and in my meta never the case I have to rely on the 5+ invuln save which is the same as the WK. plus the walkers could be easily blown up now added in the open toped +1. I have only used the WK 3 times in 1000, 1850, and a team 2200 (1100 per person) game. only died in the 1850 and made well over its points in all three games.

And its been said before it you ignore the WK it does its thing unhindered if you shoot it or charge it that's some other unit your not shooting or attacking, where as walkers anything that threatens the WK will pop the walkers and charging them with regular guys will kill them.

That is because your opponents have not adapted their lists or they were not built to contend with it.

Thing about War Walkers are that they tend to sit back and shoot and with the Wave Serpent rush going on there are far more things to occupy your opponent's attention.

Here is another way Eldar can very quickly kill it, they take a unit of six Wraithguard who disembark and shoot it and they get one 6 on the wound roll it is destroyed instantly unless it has a cover save.

They could do this against a Squadron of War Walkers and that roll of a 6 will only take out one War Walker at best and might only destroy one of the weapons which will still leave 20 to shoot back at them.

I am just saying that this model will change quite a few players in the what they put into their army. I am consider dropping the Krak Grenades from my Imperial Guard which will allow me an additional 100 points to spend and add in another squad of Snipers. Plus dropping a few more points and add another Chimera to the list being the total in the army to five.

That would give my 2000 point force over 200 models in it. Actually 201 models with only five being vehicles.

[Power Klawz]

If the impact of a model forces the entire metagame to shift significantly it can't logically be called a bad model.

Guess that pretty much sums it up.

[rle68]

So they take two wounds off of it and only lose 2 Guardsmen two me that is a win-win for the Imperial Guard because of the relative point values. Plus there are still 8 Guardsmen left and it is wrapped up in Close Combat so you don't even need to worry about it.

uh no they arent wrapped up in combat as they would lose, as honestly he will kill more then 2 a round ( the problem with all you mathhammer players is you settle for the odds.. i think my rolling is better then that if not then oh well) and they run and he waffle stomps them

[chicop76]

1. It has happened to my riptide. My tide went in to smash a russ. That armour 14 you know. This is why you should have a list and look at it before you play some one. I swore he had no demolitions. This guy came in and assaulted with melta bobs after I took out his battle tank. Even with a +3 invulnerable save they was dishing out some hurt.

Lesson learned watch out for them melta bombers.

It's not the fact they assaulting you. It's the fact they assaulting you when you decide to take out that 5 plasma cannon tank, and they sitting right behind it, damn 1" blast.

2. I play like that all the time and have no issue geting cover saves. You should see how I play with my flesh hounds. They sometimes form 2-3 ranks in 2ft lines. Sometime I put them side to side instead of long ways which is 5 to 6 rows of them. I still get cover no problem.

With the 50 man guard blob it's fun times there. My front row moves 6" and my rear moves like 2". I still get cover saves, go tanks. Now if you focus fire you have something there. I typically force people to focus fire on me. I like to focus fire a lot.

3. Umm they can deep strike. It's called a Vendetta. Demo charge and meltas in your face.

4. I think it's ok in shooting and ok in melee. It's asset is it's durability.

5. With that said I think it's time to go back to psyker battle squad and calladius assassin combo. I hav't used it in 6th, but in 5th it was great on units like swarmlord with 3 hive guard. I'll lower leadership to 2 and than come in with the assassin and instant kill the whole squad. It will be a good tactic vs large wraith guard squads.

6. Oh. Why would I deepstrike so you can lay 3 blast shots on my guys. If I did ds it would be a solo unit which would probably laugh away the blast shots, also it's called run to get them to not to be vulnerable to blast shots.

7. I no longer run small blast cause it's countered to easy. Large blast is harder to counter against. Unless you're Darklink who does what I do as well.

[rle68]

i agree with you small blast is almost outdated... cant be helped tho with plasma cannon shots :)

[Power Klawz]

If you're running those vets in a vendetta you're creeping up on the cost of the knight itself, especially if you take something like melta guns. Also its still not an assault vehicle and opens them up to a turn of shooting. They're going to lose more than a couple of dudes before they get to charge, if they get to charge. The knight will probably open up on them, then charge itself. You'll be lucky to cause a wound in retaliation, you'll lose the combat by 2 or 3 on average and those aren't great odds for an IG break test. If you break you'll probably die because giant robo is quick like a bunny.

Also a riptide isn't a wraithknight. Toughness 8 means a lot against melta bombs. They were still wounding on 2+ against a riptide, it's 4+ against a knight, that really skews the odds. Also knight hits on 3+ against guard in cc.

[Sainhann]

I guess you could take some extra weapons on the dual wraith cannon knight for overwatch purposes, or if it kills everything worth str10 shots and wants to start mowing down infantry, but 30 to 40 extra points seems steep for that flexibility. You should be able to avoid most close combat by virtue of being a rocket powered robot, and anything that can chase you down is unlikely to have high strength close combat attacks in abundance.

Ok, a jetpacking death company with spammed fists... but man that's going to be more expensive than the knight so honestly they deserve to kick its butt.

EDIT: Yeah ok... because those plucky guardsmen for some reason can turbo boost now. I all ready mentioned how ridiculous the scenario is in which you allow your knight to be charged by vets, if anything you can just unload on them the turn before they get to you if you don't feel like running away. They are not a credible threat, stop trying to make it seem like they are.

I mean, looking through my guard dex right now and vets don't seem to have any options available to them that would facilitate catching up to a wraithknight that doesn't want to be caught up with. They can't infiltrate, and even if they could it'd take more than one squad because a lone vet squad is going to get vaprized by the knight and whatever other eldar are in the area. They can't deep strike, they can't scout and they don't have access to an assault vehicle. Odds of catching up with a jump MC that just wants to dance around 36 inches from its target and blow it to pieces? Pretty damn close to zero.

Oh and if they take melta bombs they don't get better armor or stealth, so they're toughness 3 with 5+ saves chasing a jump MC through no man's land. You know what's really great at killing 5+ armor? Eldar.

But I run with three full Squads of these guys so that is 30 guys. Plus they have lots of friends as well like around 150 regular troopers 15 snipers and five Chimeras that is in my 2000 point list.

True most of regular troopers really can't do much against unless I give them back of drop a few things to give them Krak Grenades true they will need 4's to hit it and 6's to wound it but all they really need to do is keep it busy until the Veterans show up or I shoot to pieces the rest of your army.

Thing about Imperial Guard their weapons can shoot out to 24" and most of the Eldar are stuck at 12".

I know what firepower Eldar can bring to the table because I play them as well. I prefer redundancy with my armies which can be easy with Imperial Guard not so easy with Eldar because they require more finesse. But with Squadrons I do get some redundancy.

So my Imperial Guard can lose 40 guys and still operate my Eldar would be feeling the pain. So it needs to be able to move and strike hard because it will lose stuff.

I have not yet taken a stab at working up a new 2000 point list yet but it would have redundancy because my lists are not built around some Deathstar unit that will win me games. They need to function so that if I do lose two Wave Serpents it will not matter to me, because I will have two more still flying around.

[chicop76]

If you're running those vets in a vendetta you're creeping up on the cost of the knight itself, especially if you take something like melta guns. Also its still not an assault vehicle and opens them up to a turn of shooting. They're going to lose more than a couple of dudes before they get to charge, if they get to charge. The knight will probably open up on them, then charge itself. You'll be lucky to cause a wound in retaliation, you'll lose the combat by 2 or 3 on average and those aren't great odds for an IG break test. If you break you'll probably die because giant robo is quick like a bunny.

Also a riptide isn't a wraithknight. Toughness 8 means a lot against melta bombs. They were still wounding on 2+ against a riptide, it's 4+ against a knight, that really skews the odds. Also knight hits on 3+ against guard in cc.


1. You said they couldn't deep strike, I present you a methord in which they can. Also either Vet's or special teams usually ride in vendettas to deep strike on or near an objective. May it be 6-7 plasma shot death, 3 melta guns, or 3 flamers. Oh and the melta bomb. These are very common thingsin a competive list.

If you want to count the Vendetta in the points let's see ho this would typicaly go down. I am assuming no save for ease. 3 twin lass cannons can hit twice and wound twice for an easy two wounds. 7 plasma shots twin linked due to orders with bring it down rougly 6 shots hit on re rolling bs 4. 2 more wounds there, so you down to 2 wounds. You kill 5 due to shooting and assaulting. 5 attack back. 2.5 hit and you get one more wound. Oh wait let's add in the melta bomb oh you dead now. Wait if you have a +5 save than you lost only 4 wounds. Either way vendetta picks you off and kills you.

Ummm didn't I mention I assaulted a vehicle and they assaulted back.

If they assault you with a squad of 10 you will probably kill 3 in combat rounded in your favor. 7 strike back, 4 hit and 2 wounds from combat. Seeing how I just showed throwing in a vendetta in the mix you be dead. Sue to pre vendetta shooting and plasma shots. This is if the unit was already on the board.

Would they normally be able to assault you. No. However with over a hundred models on the board they all look alike and it's easy to forget what is a veteran or a platoon squad, or a conscript.( not that anyone really plays conscripts)

Riptide has +3 invulnerable save and feel no pain, due to that it can actually beat a wraithknight in combat.

[Power Klawz]

Vendetta plus melta vets, with a voc caster is minimum 235 points. A stock wraithknight is 240. And your numbers are unrealistic.

Option A: grav shute the vets, you've got a 66% chance they scatter, if they scatter they take a dangerous terrain test. That's about a 1 in 3 chance of losing a guy in the deployment, which could be anyone including one of the plasma gunners. You also might scatter out of rapid fire range reducing your shooting efficacy. Counting on the best case scenario isn't a very accurate way to calculate. If you deep strike too close you could land one of the vets within an inch of the knight, and then the whole unit gets destroyed. Best case you get lucky and everyone lands within 12 inches. Then you're dealing with imperial plasma guns, they get hot. 7 shots of plasma (twin linked) is still about a 20% chance to take a wound, with 5+ saves that's still a 12% chance to lose a model. You're at around 50% chance of taking a casualty and the enemy hasn't even fired yet, and that's assuming no catastrophic deep strike mishap.

Option B: Drop the vendetta into hover and deploy without chance of mishap. This is your best bet in terms of ensuring everyone survives long enough to shoot and is in the right range. However, your vendetta isn't going to make it out of the next turn. Massed shuriken spam from the rear will kill it, the wraithknight has a good chance of taking it out in one shot. You just put a high value target in the ground for a shot at the knight. I doubt most people would take this option though.

7 twin linked BS4 str7 plasma shots will average 2 wounds on a knight, any kind of save makes that average less than 2. He will probably have cover, he might have an invulnerable, why would you assume the best case scenario here? In most game situations you're going to get one wound out of it. The vendetta will unload 3 twin linked BS3 shots. Again with any kind of save that's about 1 wound. You've taken out 2 wounds... and your veteran squad is clumped together in base contact because you fired instead of running. Now they all die from plasma blast spam. You never get to assault.

Maybe he's running a melee build (probably not too bad against guard) and instead just opens up with shuricannon fire. You lose 3 guys, then he charges. do you still have all of those plasma guns left? Maybe you were super careful with your deployment and made sure they were all at the back of the squad, ok plasma overwatch. You probably won't wound the knight, he charges into you with 5 attacks before you get to go. If he's got a glaive he gets a reroll. That's 3 dead guardsmen, you've got 4 guys left. Again, that's less than 1 average wound with any kind of save, you lose by 3, run away, get run down by sweeping advance. Do this with 3 squads at the same time and you'll probably kill it, but that's 600+ points to do the job in one turn, which means it did its job and got a sizeable portion of your force in one area, and of course the knight isn't the only model on the eldar side.

Just because it can be killed doesn't make a great argument against or for it. And honestly I'm not terribly interested in hearing about how arguably the most overpowered army in the current meta can handle with particular threats.

One unit of vets just isn't going to get the job done without some serious backup. If you deep strike within 6 inches to guarantee a charge attempt the next turn you've got a really great chance of losing the whole squad to deep strike mishap. If you are farther out the knight can just jump 12 inches away and fire at you, you'll never catch up again. Good luck pinging away with those plasma guns at non-rapid fire range while you lose models every turn and the knight just keeps on putting out 100% until its dead.

[eldargal]

I've used a Wraithknight once now and it performed perfectly satisfactorily. Did a lot of damage, drew a lot of fire, survived the match on two wounds. Standard heavy wraithcannon build. Not making any final judgement based on one outing but I think the negativity is unwarranted.

[chorde]

I played against 9 tl lascannons today, I would not field one for a competitive game. Not to mention the vet squads inside each vendetta with meltas.

Love the model though :)

[Power Klawz]

If I was going to run knights in a "competitive" list... I'd take 2.

[DarkLink]

Do you know what the word 'anecdotal' means?

[Power Klawz]

Do you know what the word 'anecdotal' means?

Who is this directed at? If its me I have no idea what you're talking about as I've made no statements that have held up anecdotal evidence as proof of a trend.

[DarkLink]

The guy right above you. Besides, if you're playing someone with 3 Vendettas full of vets, pretty much any MC sucks.

[Apollinarius]

Can you give me page referances please. Not that I don't believe you, but a referance would be nice.

Pg 18. 2nd para determining cover save. It goes into the 25%. If shooting through cover or intervening models the 25% is akey factor. Hice you may need a knight behind a lord behind a guard behind a guadrdian, lol.

Now let's turn to pg. 91. It talks about area terrain " Area terrain is always difficult terrain. Models in are terrain receieve a 5+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured. Models that gtg in are terrain receive a +2 to their cover save, rather than +1

That's quoted strait from the book let me quote one more time " ... receive a 5+, regardless of whether or not the are 25% obscured...Can I get an Amen!

Vehicles on pg 75. The very first sentance " Vehicles are not obscured simply for being inside area terrain. The 25% rule given above takes precedence.

Now Apollo where does it says a MC have to get 25% to get the area terrain rule. Please don't look in a 5th edition codex, because we are playing 6th edition now. Quote where this rule I can't find is. Back up what you say. Facts no opinions please.

The rule I was referring to is on page 18. The rules on page 91 are intended to compensate for the fact that you won't have one tree model for every tree in the forest. That doesn't mean that a pebble can be enough cover for a Wraithlord, just that if the rocks in the area are big enough to hide a Wraithlord, it doesn't have to be behind the one rock you have marking the area in order to benefit from the save.

I guess this depends on your interpretation of the rules. The way I play is that the terrain models that represent area terrain have to be able to cover 25% of a model of the unit in question in order to provide the cover save, even though the terrain model might not be positioned in front of the unit at the time the shot is taken (that's what happens when you have two trees representing a forest and three rocks representing rocky terrain or one hill representing rolling hills.

Area terrain goes from forest to an uneven field of grass. They don't (or shouldn't) provide the same level of cover to units from Scarabs to Wraithknight. Rocks are a certain size. A regular infantry gets the cover save in most cases. Trees are a certain size and they can provide cover for Wraithlords and most other MCs We don't have anything in our collection of terrain that can provide area terrain cover for a Wraithknight.

I see this as a necessary way to play. 90% of the deployment zones is covered in area terrain. If it provided saves for everything, high penetration weapons would be meaningless because you're always shooting into area terrain. You have to find a way to get around the area terrain saves somehow, such as shooting from high above with a flyer or big MC.

The last thing to keep in mind is that just because a model is too large to benefit from the cover save in area terrain doesn't mean it doesn't treat it as difficult terrain. You can twist your ankle on a field of rocks even if the rocks aren't big enough to hide behind for cover.

[Power Klawz]

That's not how the rules work, that's a house rule and one I wouldn't like to play with as it simply gives an unfair advantage to long ranged firepower.

Rules as written and intended are that monstrous creatures get cover saves from putting a toe into area terrain. One could imagine them kneeling down to take advantage of it. Maybe wraithknight pilots have really nicely patterned, hand knit blankets that perfectly match the surrounding scenery which they make prior to the battle in memory of their dearly departed sibling.

Also vehicles do not benefit from area terrain in the same manner as monstrous creatures, so high penetration weapons are not useless.

Also also, all monstrous creatures have the move through cover USR so they, in fact, do not ever stub their toes on area terrain as they are immune to dangerous terrain. They also get to reroll move distance through difficult terrain.

[Apollinarius]

Yes War Walkers with it AV of 10 means that Marines shooting at them can glance them but a squad of 10 shooting at 24 inches will only get around 1-2 glances and thing is with a Squadron you can take three glancing hits before you have to lose one.


If they get 2 glances in one turn of shooting, you lose one. You can't spread the glances around, they go only on the closest model. Yes, you can then reposition your unit to put the damaged one behind, but that's in the next turn.

[Apollinarius]

That's not how the rules work, that's a house rule and one I wouldn't like to play with as it simply gives an unfair advantage to long ranged firepower.

Rules as written and intended are that monstrous creatures get cover saves from putting a toe into area terrain. One could imagine them kneeling down to take advantage of it. Maybe wraithknight pilots have really nicely patterned, hand knit blankets that perfectly match the surrounding scenery which they make prior to the battle in memory of their dearly departed sibling.

Also vehicles do not benefit from area terrain in the same manner as monstrous creatures, so high penetration weapons are not useless.

I don't see how that makes any sense. What's the point of using models for terrain if the whole map is a 5+ cover save with 3+ if you go to ground? Shrouded units walking around happily with 3+ in plain sight makes armor completely irrelevant.

At the end of the day, everyone can play how they like most, but I feel that the area terrain as it is (apparently) used by everyone gives massive advantages to low AP, high shot weapons and Ignores Cover weapons.

Those terrain rules make the WK irrelevant because it will never be able to use AP2 to deny saves because it will always be dealing with 5+ to 3+ cover saves and it will be easy to ignore. A Wave Serpent on the other hand gets 9-14 S6 or higher shots, twin linked. The suncannon would have to hit 4 models or more with its template (usually you're lucky to hit more than 2) per shot to match the Wave Serpent firepower.

As for the "ranged firepower" advantage with not all models getting maximum terrain saves, the Wave Serpent has 60" range to the WK's 36" range. The 9 Serpent 1850 army someone posted on here sounds like the way to go.

MC's roll 3d6 and pick highest instead of 2d6 and pick highest. They still can't move straight 6" they way they would if they were in open terrain. They may not stub their toes, but they still walk more carefully. The Move Through Cover USR has no effect on assault movement or running.

[Power Klawz]

You don't have to designate the entire board as area terrain you know... There should be some areas without cover that are strategically appropriate, killing fields surrounding objectives you have to run through to reach cover for example.

I believe you're overstating a problem that is easily solved by simply using the appropriate amount of cover placed in a logical fashion.

[Apollinarius]

You don't have to designate the entire board as area terrain you know... There should be some areas without cover that are strategically appropriate, killing fields surrounding objectives you have to run through to reach cover for example.

I believe you're overstating a problem that is easily solved by simply using the appropriate amount of cover placed in a logical fashion.

Other than riverbanks and roads, everything is area terrain. If you consider a landscape, how much of it is going to be parking lots and how much is going to be tall grass, trees, rocks and hills?

You're placing area terrain, not cover. It just happens that area terrain provides amazing cover to everything. With terrain density rules (which are annoying to use so I don't) you're in even worse shape. You have to place as many as 3 items per 2'x2' square. If you roll high, you're in a situation where you have ruins next to each other and hills and forests practically overlapping. Yes, you have 3" between two pieces of terrain, but that's not exactly a lot of flat ground.

[DarkLink]

Read the frikin' rules. Area terrain is specifically defined. It is different from open terrain. Area terrain grants cover saves to MCs if they are standing in it, regardless of the completely separate rule for 25% coverage.


If they get 2 glances in one turn of shooting, you lose one. You can't spread the glances around, they go only on the closest model. Yes, you can then reposition your unit to put the damaged one behind, but that's in the next turn.

Hey, you actually got a rule right. Bravo.

[Power Klawz]

I mean, I'm not mad or anything, but I think you are misinterpreting the rules quite egregiously Apoll. The whole board doesn't give you a cover save, just stuff like forests or ponds or craters or what have you. There should still be plenty of open space on your average game board for those high powered weapons to rain hot death upon your foes.

[DarkLink]

Funny how a model that uses more plastic, more sprues, and requires a larger box might be generally more expensive than a smaller model;).

[Power Klawz]

Funny how a model that uses more plastic, more sprues, and requires a larger box might be generally more expensive than a smaller model;).

I'm quite certain he's referring to point cost, not dolla dolla bills y'all.

[DarkLink]

It's a Monstrous Creature. Of course it costs more points. GW thinks that MCs are better than Flyers or something.

[chorde]

The guy right above you. Besides, if you're playing someone with 3 Vendettas full of vets, pretty much any MC sucks.

Call me out as u wish, but as I am finishing my 2nd degree, so...yes, i am aware of what anecdotal means, not sure I have seen anyone attach battle reports or affidavits of battles for evidence b4 though lol, I can for future posts if u like? I would be expecting the same from others though, or I can just take my knowledge of the eldar elsewhere. I have been playing eldar for 15+ years. Used to read forums such as this never bothered to comment.

Believe what u want, had 2 games with my new list, tabled demons turn 4...7? flying MC's, 30 plague bearers, and 10 manta ray looking things in 2k battle. The imp gaurd list with hydra, manticore, 5 vet squads 3 vendettas, platoon of 2 tanks 1 with poison template, the other with melta blast? (didnt get to shoot, might b a template), 1 valkyrie carrying those chicks with power swrds and cortez was almost tabled before his flyers arrived turn 2. tabled him turn 6 in the end. Never use wraithlords... poison snipers, power fists and lascannons end them 2 quickly. I like winning against any army hence why my 1st 2 games where against an assault army then a shooting army. Looking forward to tau as everyone seems to think they are the ones to beat.

Happy to give u tips on playing eldar if u would like DarkLink? perhaps you can just see for yourself then instead of questioning new comers to this site, which I do find odd given you are chapter master. Anyone who is interested mail me and I will send u the current list I am using :)

[chicop76]

Call me out as u wish, but as I am finishing my 2nd degree, so...yes, i am aware of what anecdotal means, not sure I have seen anyone attach battle reports or affidavits of battles for evidence b4 though lol, I can for future posts if u like? I would be expecting the same from others though, or I can just take my knowledge of the eldar elsewhere. I have been playing eldar for 15+ years. Used to read forums such as this never bothered to comment.

Believe what u want, had 2 games with my new list, tabled demons turn 4...7? flying MC's, 30 plague bearers, and 10 manta ray looking things in 2k battle. The imp gaurd list with hydra, manticore, 5 vet squads 3 vendettas, platoon of 2 tanks 1 with poison template, the other with melta blast? (didnt get to shoot, might b a template), 1 valkyrie carrying those chicks with power swrds and cortez was almost tabled before his flyers arrived turn 2. tabled him turn 6 in the end. Never use wraithlords... poison snipers, power fists and lascannons end them 2 quickly. I like winning against any army hence why my 1st 2 games where against an assault army then a shooting army. Looking forward to tau as everyone seems to think they are the ones to beat.

Happy to give u tips on playing eldar if u would like DarkLink? perhaps you can just see for yourself then instead of questioning new comers to this site, which I do find odd given you are chapter master. Anyone who is interested mail me and I will send u the current list I am using :)

Plaguebearers are easy to deal with. I am one of the rare daemon players who never fields them. They don't do anything. That said unless I have a hearld attached to plaguebearers I don't see the point in taking them. Honestly I rather even take horrors over them.

I been playing since 3rd has been created. I only been tabled once while playing daemons, due to rolling really, really, really bad. It was to blood angels in 5th. Now I can field more models and went against a lol more differant armies including Tau several times and guard several times. I tabled them and never been tabled.

In fact. Knock on wood I neverlost with my daemons, waiting on my bike bases so I can play my hounds outside of friendly games. Anyway I would be impressed if you can table 40 hounds rushing you to be honest. I only run 20 but have 30 daemonettes and 3 flying MC,s which can all easily attack on turn 2.

Interesting enough I havn't seen enough fire power to kill +3 invulerable, feel no pain, it will not die hounds yet. When you wipe that squad in shooting , which usally allows every one else to get you, I can than respect Eldar more. Don't talke about it when they have flame shield or invisibility on them as well.

[Learn2Eel]

Never use wraithlords... poison snipers, power fists and lascannons end them 2 quickly.

Huh? Wraithlords solo out almost any power fist-equipped model with a challenge and proceed to stomp them or render them unable to attack.

If you are referring to Wraithknights, then the easy answer is to use your mobility to stay away from them. That lascannons still need 3s to wound and the Wraithknight can easily get cover saves in this edition is great stuff. Few armies do massed snipers so I don't see the issue. People use Dreadknights in competitive environments and a Wraithknight is a far better "tank" than they are.

[DarkLink]

Yup. I'm one of them. Wraithknight is hand-down better, if for no other reason than it is significantly tougher (also, it's cheaper than a Dreadknight if you buy enough upgrades to make the Dreadknight actually useful, pretty much all of the Dreadknight's guns and wargear are way overpriced).

[chorde]

@ chico,
40 hounds could be interesting indeed hehe, think the guy I played was a little shocked when gaurdians started shredding his MC's, cost me 400 pts in psykers and a sqaud of 5 WG. I'll suggest he tries more hounds (these are manta ray looking things right?) half his Plague bearers failed to arrive in his turn 3 so he had 15 in reserve plus 1 MC when it ended.

@ learn2Eel,
I see lots of cover ignoring, poison, assault cannons, TL str 8 autocannons and now even a gaurdian squad can wound them lol, it also takes a while to chew through 10 space marines especially if u are challenging the 1st turn of combat, guess it depends on your style of play to what you prefer.

[chicop76]

@ chico,
40 hounds could be interesting indeed hehe, think the guy I played was a little shocked when gaurdians started shredding his MC's, cost me 400 pts in psykers and a sqaud of 5 WG. I'll suggest he tries more hounds (these are manta ray looking things right?) half his Plague bearers failed to arrive in his turn 3 so he had 15 in reserve plus 1 MC when it ended.

@ learn2Eel,
I see lots of cover ignoring, poison, assault cannons, TL str 8 autocannons and now even a gaurdian squad can wound them lol, it also takes a while to chew through 10 space marines especially if u are challenging the 1st turn of combat, guess it depends on your style of play to what you prefer.

No those are screamers. I can run 5 hounds to 3 screamers. Same stat line, but Hounds are ws 5 with furious charge and 1 less attack.

Screamer are good for deepstriking. They can deep strike and rake a unit with 9d3 strength 4 hits if they turbo. They are good anti tank and MC. The problem with them they can only take a max of 9.

Hounds can start the game in the middle of the board, move 12 with move through cover, and have fleet. They can start in the middle due to scout. It's possible to assault turn 1 with hounds if the daemon player goes second.

I don't run 5 MCs cause it's a vulnerability. I have been running 3 however with 20 hounds and 30 daemonettes.

The biggest threat I see is the wave serpents. Which means I might have to start deep striking more and take some more shooting in my list. However fly to close to the hounds or daemonettes both squads can defeat armour.

I know on turn 2 I can easily get in my enemies deplyment zone with almost my entire army.