Chaos with no Heldrakes

[Daemondad]

I was wondering how the Chaos Marines rate without the use of Heldrakes. I know they are part of the game, but people seem to frown when you field them. I understand they are part of the game, but that isn't the issue here. Can I be competitive against the upper tier armies without them, or are the Heldrakes solely what makes the CSMs an upper tier army?

[DarkLink]

Chaos isn't so great. The only thing that really makes chaos special are its marks and a couple of unique units, but most of the marks suck and of the elite units only the Heldrake is super awesome. Flying Daemon Princes can be nasty, too, but aren't nearly as reliable as the Heldrake. Daemon allies aren't anything special now. So you're basically left with a bunch of mediocre Marines, which is decent but nothing special.

[HERO]

I was wondering how the Chaos Marines rate without the use of Heldrakes. I know they are part of the game, but people seem to frown when you field them. I understand they are part of the game, but that isn't the issue here. Can I be competitive against the upper tier armies without them, or are the Heldrakes solely what makes the CSMs an upper tier army?

I actually don't consider the CSM codex as being that bad. There's a few builds that you can do that can build a fun and capable army. I would personally only bring one Helldrake, but I only find some of Marks worth taking (Nurgle remains the best IMO). I would personally roll with 2x Nurgle Oblits units, Demolisher, one Heldrake, and a bunch of CSM in Rhinos, Terminators in Chaos Land Raider. Also, Divination Tz Herald, a Soul Grinder if I have the points, and a large unit of Screamers.

[chicop76]

I was wondering how the Chaos Marines rate without the use of Heldrakes. I know they are part of the game, but people seem to frown when you field them. I understand they are part of the game, but that isn't the issue here. Can I be competitive against the upper tier armies without them, or are the Heldrakes solely what makes the CSMs an upper tier army?

Take out the helldrake they easily the worst 6th edition codex. Dark Angels are litterly geared to beat them which pulls DA ahead of them.

@ Hero: one drake is one drake too many. Instead of 2 squads dead with me doing nothing, it's one squad gone.

That being said I am looking at a Chaos and Dameon alliance. Thinking of adding Oblits, Helldrake, Prince with Buring Brand with my daemons. I just don't know what troops to use. Cultist die rather easy and Chaos Marines are ok.

[chicop76]

Take out the helldrake they easily the worst 6th edition codex. Dark Angels are litterly geared to beat them which pulls DA ahead of them.

@ Hero: one drake is one drake too many. Instead of 2 squads dead with me doing nothing, it's one squad gone.

That being said I am looking at a Chaos and Dameon alliance. Thinking of adding Oblits, Helldrake, Prince with Buring Brand with my daemons. I just don't know what troops to use. Cultist die rather easy and Chaos Marines are ok.


Tzeentch Oblits can be a +2 invulnerable save. Just wish Chaos had daemon troops. Heck kill my helldrake with a +3 invulnerable save.

[Learn2Eel]

Take out the helldrake they easily the worst 6th edition codex. Dark Angels are litterly geared to beat them which pulls DA ahead of them.

@ Hero: one drake is one drake too many. Instead of 2 squads dead with me doing nothing, it's one squad gone.

That being said I am looking at a Chaos and Dameon alliance. Thinking of adding Oblits, Helldrake, Prince with Buring Brand with my daemons. I just don't know what troops to use. Cultist die rather easy and Chaos Marines are ok.

I wouldn't rate the codices but they do have some nasty tricks up their sleeves aside from the Heldrake. Obliterators are fantastic, and I've seen the Khorne Rush (Khorne Juggernaught/Bike Lords, Khorne Bikers, Spawn, Rhino-mounted Chaos Marines, Maulerfiends) work very well, particularly with Daemon allies (Bloodthirsters, Flesh Hounds).

For Troops, it depends on what you need. If you are playing a mixed or more aggressive list, I would suggest Chaos Marines. If you need cheap scoring units with an army focused on taking the enemy objectives, then Cultists work. If you want the best firepower, take Noise Marines. if you want the toughest per model, take Plague Marines.


Tzeentch Oblits can be a +2 invulnerable save. Just wish Chaos had daemon troops. Heck kill my helldrake with a +3 invulnerable save.

Unfortunately, the Mark of Tzeentch can never boost a models' invulnerable save beyond 3+. Even if you Grimoire them they are still hard-capped at +3. About the only units you can Grimoire to have a 2+ invulnerable save that I know of are units affected by the 4+ invulnerable save Divination power, and Fateweaver.

[chicop76]

Hmmm. I wil have to check the 3+. In that case I will go nurgle and give the 3+ invulnerable if needed.

I tend to go mass buffs on hounds followed by 30-40 daemonettes. Typically 50-60 models in the face followed by 2 or 3 flying MC's. Typically game over in turn 3 sometimes 2.

Warp Storm Table and True names can get you down to 2+ invulnerable as well. Both of them can also get rid of your invulnerable save.

[daboarder]

even better, you can use the grimiore and AA fire to force opposing heldrakes to consider jinking, and a jinking heldrake would not be firing at all

[DrLove42]

A Heldrake will never jink

Do I jink, not shoot and get a 5+ cover save, or not jink, shoot next turn and use my 5+ Invuln?

[Learn2Eel]

A Heldrake will never jink

Do I jink, not shoot and get a 5+ cover save, or not jink, shoot next turn and use my 5+ Invuln?

The Grimoire can be used to reduce the invulnerable save of an enemy Daemon unit.

[DrLove42]

Yes. But it also has a greater chance of increasing it....

[Learn2Eel]

No, it only works that way if it is a friendly Daemon unit. For an enemy Daemon unit, there is no roll required - its invulnerable save is decreased by one automatically.

[jifel]

A question bout Mark of Tzeentch and the Grimoire of True Names: If I have Tzeentch Oblits, thats a 4+ invulnerable. If I then throw Grimoire on, why is that not a 2++? I understand MoT can't bring a model past a 3++, but If I buy MoT and apply it to the model, then the Grimoire and apply to a model, wouldn't the Grimoire be the one taking it past a 3++, and so be allowed?

[Learn2Eel]

You have to remember that the Mark of Tzeentch already boosts your invulnerable save, just like the Grimoire does - save that the Mark of Tzeentch is permanent. And under no circumstances can it be used to boost an invulnerable save beyond 3+. Both it and the Grimoire are modifiers and thus fall into the same category - you could technically argue that the Mark of Tzeentch is applied at the same time as the Grimoire, as they are both positive modifiers.

[Caitsidhe]

You have to remember that the Mark of Tzeentch already boosts your invulnerable save, just like the Grimoire does - save that the Mark of Tzeentch is permanent. And under no circumstances can it be used to boost an invulnerable save beyond 3+. Both it and the Grimoire are modifiers and thus fall into the same category - you could technically argue that the Mark of Tzeentch is applied at the same time as the Grimoire, as they are both positive modifiers.

Have they put a Faq out about this? Or is there a rule that clearly would indicate the two benefits can't stack?

[chicop76]

even better, you can use the grimiore and AA fire to force opposing heldrakes to consider jinking, and a jinking heldrake would not be firing at all

Good call on that. I do use if offensively sometimes. Especally when everyone gets the invulnerable save minus. Since I rune daemonettes they tend to go first so a +6 invul in combat is not a big thing, but when I strip away your invulnerable save it's always an awesome thing to do. It catches Chaos and Daemon players off guard.

I would say no on the +3. Obviously to bring it down pass 3 is to use true names to do so. Nothing else in the game can bring them down beyond a 3+ invulnerable save. Hince why I will take mark of nurgle and use fateweaver to get those rolls of 10 and the warp storm table. Out of 7 fateweaver games I got the + 1 twice 3 times. It's always on the re roll :(. I never just roll that, or when I roll a 6 I re roll the other dice which helps.

Fateweaver really makes the warpstorm table works for you and he helps a lot with true names. I only failed it once under his watch so far. When that +2 invulnerable kicks in and I fail Fateweaver is there to save the day.

Still getting the hang of the weaver, but for the most part he is there to buff. Fire shiled and Endurance is the best one head can get and on the other I like invisibility and mostly prescience. Hate it if I get all 4 like that. Other than buffing he is vector striking and running. That run move helps with his 90% turns.

[Apollinarius]

Trying to play CSM without Helldrakes is a bit like trying to play Eldar without Farseers. It can be done, but it is definitely unusual.

I would say that CSM greatest advantage is actually the price of the most basic un-upgraded Chaos Marine. It is ridiculously cheap for those stats. As soon as you add anything (including a mark or grenade) the price goes up to unjustifiable levels. An army composed of 60-80 basic chaos marines with some MC/Vehicle support is deceptively powerful. Nothing can match that amount of S4 firepower. It is enough to wipe enemy troop choices off the table, regardless of the cover and armor saves they have. It is also tough enough to survive the heaviest enemy fire for however long the game lasts.

[Sly]

What is the main strength of Heldrakes, other than how hard it is to kill? It's the AP3 Ignore Cover template. Well, of all of the Codices in the game, CSM are probably best equipped to play WITHOUT the Heldrakes, with other AP3 torrent attacks (Burning Brand) and AP3 Ignore Cover blasts and normal templates (Noise Marines). As well as a pretty solid list that can assault into cover with Maulerfiends, Spawn, and Lords on Bikes. So Heldrakes don't really add something to CSM that they don't get otherwise, they are just the most efficient unit in the game at it.

If you make a Noise Marines list, you can do without Heldrakes. Especially if you Ally in Necrons or Tau, for AA and to provide point-efficient vehicle busting. The Allies break units out of transports, then the Noise Marines blast them. It works very well WITH Heldrakes and Cultists or normal CSM, with the Heldrakes doing the infantry-blasting, but it can work with Blastmasters/Doom Sirens also.

[chicop76]

Good call on that. I do use if offensively sometimes. Especally when everyone gets the invulnerable save minus. Since I rune daemonettes they tend to go first so a +6 invul in combat is not a big thing, but when I strip away your invulnerable save it's always an awesome thing to do. It catches Chaos and Daemon players off guard.

I would say no on the +3. Obviously to bring it down pass 3 is to use true names to do so. Nothing else in the game can bring them down beyond a 3+ invulnerable save. Hince why I will take mark of nurgle and use fateweaver to get those rolls of 10 and the warp storm table. Out of 7 fateweaver games I got the + 1 twice 3 times. It's always on the re roll :(. I never just roll that, or when I roll a 6 I re roll the other dice which helps.

Fateweaver really makes the warpstorm table works for you and he helps a lot with true names. I only failed it once under his watch so far. When that +2 invulnerable kicks in and I fail Fateweaver is there to save the day.

Still getting the hang of the weaver, but for the most part he is there to buff. Fire shiled and Endurance is the best one head can get and on the other I like invisibility and mostly prescience. Hate it if I get all 4 like that. Other than buffing he is vector striking and running. That run move helps with his 90% turns.

Wrong. It's like eldar not playing riptides and markerlights. Damn things is the only reason why it's not the worst 6th edition codex.

[HERO]

Originally Posted by chicop76
Good call on that. I do use if offensively sometimes. Especally when everyone gets the invulnerable save minus. Since I rune daemonettes they tend to go first so a +6 invul in combat is not a big thing, but when I strip away your invulnerable save it's always an awesome thing to do. It catches Chaos and Daemon players off guard.

I would say no on the +3. Obviously to bring it down pass 3 is to use true names to do so. Nothing else in the game can bring them down beyond a 3+ invulnerable save. Hince why I will take mark of nurgle and use fateweaver to get those rolls of 10 and the warp storm table. Out of 7 fateweaver games I got the + 1 twice 3 times. It's always on the re roll . I never just roll that, or when I roll a 6 I re roll the other dice which helps.

Fateweaver really makes the warpstorm table works for you and he helps a lot with true names. I only failed it once under his watch so far. When that +2 invulnerable kicks in and I fail Fateweaver is there to save the day.

Still getting the hang of the weaver, but for the most part he is there to buff. Fire shiled and Endurance is the best one head can get and on the other I like invisibility and mostly prescience. Hate it if I get all 4 like that. Other than buffing he is vector striking and running. That run move helps with his 90% turns.
Wrong. It's like eldar not playing riptides and markerlights. Damn things is the only reason why it's not the worst 6th edition codex.


Wrong. It's like eldar not playing riptides and markerlights. Damn things is the only reason why it's not the worst 6th edition codex.

Did you just get in an argument with yourself?

http://t.qkme.me/3lcd.jpg

[Apollinarius]

What is the main strength of Heldrakes, other than how hard it is to kill? It's the AP3 Ignore Cover template. Well, of all of the Codices in the game, CSM are probably best equipped to play WITHOUT the Heldrakes, with other AP3 torrent attacks (Burning Brand) and AP3 Ignore Cover blasts and normal templates (Noise Marines). As well as a pretty solid list that can assault into cover with Maulerfiends, Spawn, and Lords on Bikes. So Heldrakes don't really add something to CSM that they don't get otherwise, they are just the most efficient unit in the game at it.

If you make a Noise Marines list, you can do without Heldrakes. Especially if you Ally in Necrons or Tau, for AA and to provide point-efficient vehicle busting. The Allies break units out of transports, then the Noise Marines blast them. It works very well WITH Heldrakes and Cultists or normal CSM, with the Heldrakes doing the infantry-blasting, but it can work with Blastmasters/Doom Sirens also.

I would say that the Vector Strike and 5++ save and immunity to 1-3 on the penetration table and the ability to recover hull points are all reasons why it's good. It's insanely good.

You need to kill it in one turn or you just wasted your time shooting at it, but it's ridiculously hard to kill for a flyer with that point cost. And if things get hairy, it can always move flat out to escape off the field, but not before it gets one last S7 Vector Strike in.

2-4 guaranteed S7 AP3 hits during the movement phase is just nuts.

[chicop76]

Stupid browser. I selected apollo when he said not playing helldarkes is like eldar not playing Farseers. I was saying that it's more like Tau not taking Riptides and marker lights.

My question is are you saying is it playabe to do so, or are you trying to win. Heck you can run all cultist and it's playable. Whould you win is a differant matter.

[40kGamer]

Did you just get in an argument with yourself?

http://t.qkme.me/3lcd.jpg


Crap! I almost spewed Dr Pepper all over the monitor.... :p

[Apollinarius]

Stupid browser. I selected apollo when he said not playing helldarkes is like eldar not playing Farseers. I was saying that it's more like Tau not taking Riptides and marker lights.

My question is are you saying is it playabe to do so, or are you trying to win. Heck you can run all cultist and it's playable. Whould you win is a differant matter.

I think Tau without Riptides works just fine. Tau without marker lights is just nuts :D

Chaos can do decently without Helldrakes, especially because these days everyone is anticipating Helldrakes and building armies to take them down fast. If you don't bring any and he has 400 pts worth of anti-air, you have an advantage that more than makes up for no Helldrakes.

My Chaos opponent doesn't have any Helldrakes because he hasn't had time to paint new Chaos models since the new Codex came out and he does just fine with massed Chaos Marines.

[DarkLink]

I would say that the Vector Strike and 5++ save and immunity to 1-3 on the penetration table and the ability to recover hull points are all reasons why it's good. It's insanely good.

You need to kill it in one turn or you just wasted your time shooting at it, but it's ridiculously hard to kill for a flyer with that point cost. And if things get hairy, it can always move flat out to escape off the field, but not before it gets one last S7 Vector Strike in.

2-4 guaranteed S7 AP3 hits during the movement phase is just nuts.

That, and also that it can easily make its points back in one, maybe two, rounds of shooting/vector striking pretty reliably. Kill a Rhino and half a squad of Space Marines a turn, and you're going to rack up points real fast even if you do eventually get killed.