Cool Models vs Proxies

[Mystery.Shadow]

In a recent Apocalypse Game, someone brought an Eldar Phantom Titan.
To counter, another player brought some 'beverage can Drop Pods' and proxied some Salamanders as Salamanders equipped with Combi-Meltas.

http://album.warpshadow.com/v/HiveFleetMysteryShadow/Memorial+Day+Massacre+2013/05270041.JPG.html

What does the 40k public think about practices like this? How important is WYSIWYG ?

[eldargal]

In my group we allow such proxies to try out rules. But if you want to play in one of our Apocalypse games you have to have the models you want to play with and they have to be painted. It's a great incentive to get people painting. The only exceptions are made for players with very restricted budgets, we don't feel they should be penalised. In which case we lend them suitbly proxies.

Really not ok with this beyond a one off joke personally.

[Nabterayl]

My group, by contrast, is pretty much fine with it. But ... why do you ask? Are you trying to figure out what your own attitude should be, or trying to decide if your own attitude (whatever it is) is reasonable?

[dirkspair]

i think apoc should be about what you have, all painted and WYSIWYG. it keeps the playing field kinda level instead of one person bringing his army of accurate models to have it countered on the fly by someone that proxies his units into units that are great at dealing with the things that show up in apoc games. we just played a game like that where some brought all accurate stuff and others had LR redeemers posing as spartans with 4 TL LCs holding 25 DC models and regular assault squads turned out to be 3x10 vanguard vets with melta bombs that took care of big, scary apoc models. it takes resources and dedication to field a good apoc force and it sucks to have it eliminated by someone who's main effort is to squeeze cheese out of his 2k 40k tourney army, if you catch my drift.

[isotope99]

Depends on what you're talking about, the points value of the game etc.

If it's a small-ish game where the phantom is a big surprise and the opposing player would otherwise have basically zero chance of countering the phantom, then such adjustments are probably preferable to a one sided game. If its a bigger game with other anti-titan weapons on the field and/or they just want 20 combi-meltas to stick it to the titan first turn then no.

[Denzark]

For me, in tourneys, WYSIWYG is quite important - I don't know all rules for all armies, I don't have time to work out what proxies are what if you are against the clock - so rule of cool is for out of skool. Still, don't complain if you can't see every little frag grenade.

In home terrain including Apoc, why the shizzle not? Unless you are implying someone only did this as hard counter to the Phantom and it was a little beardy...

[Mr Mystery]

Coke can drop pods? Hell. No. Would look rubbish!

[Pssyche]

I hate playing against non-WYSIWYG.

In my experience, pretty much every time I play against a painted WYSIWYG army, whether it's Apocalypse which is my favourite incarnation or Standard 40K, we have a great game.
Whenever I play against a non-WYSIWYG army, my opponent cheats.
Pure and simple.

[Gotthammer]

So it seems that superheavy players = all WYSIWYG, non-superheavy players = more accommodating.

I really dislike playing against non-WYSIWYG forces in Apoc, it gets too confusing when you have ten times the number of models on the board to keep track of. At bare minimum weapons/vehicles should be accurate - I can handle things like "this fancy Nob is Ghaz" or "my Ultramarines are Space Wolves" as it's esoteric stuff that wouldn't be on the table anyway.

[lomaxxdurang]

So it seems that superheavy players = all WYSIWYG, non-superheavy players = more accommodating.

I really dislike playing against non-WYSIWYG forces in Apoc, it gets too confusing when you have ten times the number of models on the board to keep track of. At bare minimum weapons/vehicles should be accurate - I can handle things like "this fancy Nob is Ghaz" or "my Ultramarines are Space Wolves" as it's esoteric stuff that wouldn't be on the table anyway.


I don't see a problem with non-WYSIWYG. I am preferable to WYSIWYG, but I find it creates elitist attitudes which limits people from getting to have fun in a lot of cases. Also I think the rule of cool really applies in a lot of cases, for example with my Leman Russ Exterminators, Punishers, and vanquishers with cupola heavy stubbers. The facts are it looks awesome, and when I want to field them it gives me three extra shots with punishers and exterminators and with the vanquishers I use it if I am using forgeworld rules.

As to super heavy users vs. non super heavy users I own 4 super heavies and between my wife and I we have about 20k IG as of this weekend, 10-12k orks, 8k CSM, and 4k Eldar.
The only game where I got annoyed at proxying was my CSM against my buddies son's new Tau, where he used a coke can for a rip tide, 3 terrain trees for Forgeworld Tau Sensor what nots, and he'd allied necrons using 2 of my Valkyries for necron fliers and kroot and a ethereal for the necron troops and hq. I was annoyed because he didnt tell me upfront hey I am bringing Forgeworld and oh I am going to need your stuff and I am not prepared well. This got on my nerves, but typically a lack of WYSIWYG doesn't ruin games in my neck of the woods.

[PaD]

In my group we allow such proxies to try out rules. But if you want to play in one of our Apocalypse games you have to have the models you want to play with and they have to be painted. It's a great incentive to get people painting. The only exceptions are made for players with very restricted budgets, we don't feel they should be penalised. In which case we lend them suitbly proxies.
Totally agree. I'd be really pee'd off if someone pulled that in a game I was playing in. Especially if it was my Titan. Definitely NOT COOL.

[Chris Copeland]

To get invited to the biggest, coolest Apoc games around here you have to have well painted models. You also have to have models that fit the narrative of the particular Apoc game being played (I'm a 'Nid player so I get into fewer of these games than my Imperial friends... more incentive for me to finish my Dark Angel army...). I really appreciate the work that goes into these games and I've been honored to have been asked each time it's happened so I think the system works.

[lobster-overlord]

Wasn't the intent of Apoc to be able to throw down with your massive collections that can't fit into a normal point/FO slotted game? Apoc for me was the ability to pull out the battle companies and have hundreds of troops on the table and some big units of armor. I go WYSIWYG as I can't remember what I'm running if I proxy something with large armies. We had one guy who was using a unit of Sternguard and proxied them all as combi meltas because he wanted to take out the gargant first turn (which he did). Rather cheap in my opinion because he'd used them as they modeled SG that they were in the previous 3 games, but wanted to be able to do some damage in this game. None of us had fun because of this proxy, except him.

We outlawed proxies after that.

John M>

[deinol]

If it's a casual game with a friend? Proxy all you want. The only games I ever played of Fantasy have been 100% proxy on both sides.

If its a game against a random guy at a store or whatever, you should play an army you have.

If its a big, scheduled Appc game it should be actual models too.

That said, I'm all for well done "Counts as" conversions. Example, I usually use my Great Harlequin model as an Autarch. My next project will be making some Exodite Dragon Riders which I plan to run a a Shining Spears. But those are all clear and distinct from other units and can't be mistaken for something else.

[Learn2Eel]

In my LGS virtually no "counts-as" is allowed at all now. It used to be that you could proxy minor stuff (i.e. Defiler as a Soul Grinder) but I think someone trying to count a tissue box as a Land Raider sealed the deal for our manager. Personally though, as long as you tell me what is what, I don't mind - just as long as it is still a model you are using of a near appropriate size and not beer cans or stuff like that.

One of the more memorable (not for me though) moments with proxying was a Grey Knight player having a bash against a friend of mine who has Tyranids. The Grey Knight Dreadnought had a pair of doomfists modeled on him, and so the Tyranid player decided to deploy his Carnifex elsewhere. Turned out, the guy had given it the infamous rifleman configuration without telling my buddy. Oh, and the two Grey Knight Terminator squads armed with halberds and incinerators actually had daemon hammers and psycannons, but again, the guy failed to mention it until they got into combat. See, that kind of stuff I find unacceptable, as it is almost a deliberate attempt at tricking your opponent. I do know the Grey Knight player, and he didn't intentionally try to do that, but it is still something that players need to discuss before a game starts.

[Demonus]

We have no problem with non WYSIWYG models. I for one am not going to buy 15 dreadnoughts for various army themes, with various weapons. I announce to my opponents what everything is, and give them full access to my list should they have any questions. I accidentally left my DA home the other night, so I used 5 Rangers and 5 Scorpion guard, telling my opponent what they were supposed to be an no issue arose. I sure as hell wasn't riving 30 min to go get them and come back.

Using tissue boxes or coke cans is another matter. A friend of ours used a cardboard baneblade once. We laughed at it so much it never came out again. hell I use some non GW troopers for my warrior accolytes. Cause I purchased them for 60 cents each, fully painted =P.

[Wolfshade]

In appocalypse I do very much prefer WYSIWYG, just from the stand point that you know what everything is and don't need to think about what that coke can is today, drop pod, dreaad nought, wraithlord. If you have lots of these it can become so easy to get confused.

In the rest of my games I don't mind people using proxies, especially if they are trying a new build.

I like the proxies to be the right size, and be outstanding from the rest of the squad, so people with special weapons being armed with different wepons (meltaguns not flamers) not a problem, but things like oh that blob of 40 identical guardsmen includes 4 sarges and 12 plasma guns I dislike as they can mysteriously move around the squad from being on the front row for shooting to being on the back for taking wounds.

[Apollinarius]

In a recent Apocalypse Game, someone brought an Eldar Phantom Titan.
To counter, another player brought some 'beverage can Drop Pods' and proxied some Salamanders as Salamanders equipped with Combi-Meltas.

http://album.warpshadow.com/v/HiveFleetMysteryShadow/Memorial+Day+Massacre+2013/05270041.JPG.html

What does the 40k public think about practices like this? How important is WYSIWYG ?

That's the point at which I'd pack my toys and go home.

If the guy was in the process of building/painting his own Titan, and you know this because you know the guy well personally, then it's fine. If he's doing it because he wants a Titan on the field because you have one, then he needs to leave.

The only time proxies make sense in my opinion is if you can't meet the points. If the army with the Titan is 5k points but the army without the Titan is only 4k, then he can use proxies to even out the numbers so that both players can have a fair game (and the guy who brought the Titan can use him in a reasonable game).

[40kGamer]

Unless someone is testing the rules for a new model in a light-hearted game, or is a hobbyist with a distinctive "counts as" army, I come down on the side of WYSIWYG. (I love the spectacle of painted models on well built terrain so a themed harlequin, exodite or hrud army is a much welcome and pleasant surprise...) My experience with proxy has been universally negative... too much opportunity for people to conveniently forget which model is armed with which weapon and such... You're shooting at me? well my meltagun is safely in the back, I'm shooting at you - it just teleported to the front! Sneaky ******! :rolleyes:

And beverage can drop pods are a definite no-no...

[lobster-overlord]

That's the point at which I'd pack my toys and go home.

If the guy was in the process of building/painting his own Titan, and you know this because you know the guy well personally, then it's fine. If he's doing it because he wants a Titan on the field because you have one, then he needs to leave.

The only time proxies make sense in my opinion is if you can't meet the points. If the army with the Titan is 5k points but the army without the Titan is only 4k, then he can use proxies to even out the numbers so that both players can have a fair game (and the guy who brought the Titan can use him in a reasonable game).

Even this isn't enough for me. Lopsided point values are part of the game. To balance it, you receive additional additional Strategic Assets.