CSM 1850pts

[Chaoschrist]

So, I decided to do a new army and settled for Chaos Space Marines. Flipping through the codex I came up with the following list which will face Marines, Necrons and perhaps Tyranids mostly. I'm not a tournament player by any means.

So anyway; here's the list

Troops

Chaos Space marine squad; 10 models, 2 x Plasmagun, Champion has combi-plasma, Icon of Vengeance (205)

Chaos Space marine squad; 10 models, 2 x Plasmagun, Champion has combi-plasma, Icon of Vengeance (205)

Chaos Space marine squad; 10 models, 2 x Plasmagun, Champion has combi-plasma, Icon of Vengeance (205)

Cultists; 25 models, Autoguns, 2 x Heavy stubber, Champion has shotgun (144)

Fast attack

Helldrake w/ Baleflamer (170)

Helldrake w/ Baleflamer (170)

Heavy Support

2 x Obliterator w/ Mark of Tzeentch (156)

2 x Obliterator w/ Mark of Tzeentch (156)

2 x Obliterator w/ Mark of Tzeentch (156)



This all adds up to 1567, which leaves open 283 points for an HQ and maybe some other stuff.

Not sure about the HQ, but

HQ

Daemon prince; Wings, Armor, Black mace, Daemon of Tzeentch, Gift of mutation (275).

Not to sure about the Daemon of Tzeentch thing though, any choice might be viable (not too sure about Nurgle). But I guess the re-rolls make up for possible death by massive small arms fire. To fill up points I might throw in a few cultists.

So, thoughts?

[SacredChao]

I'm not too much of a fan of paying for heavy stubbers on cultists, it just seems so.... useless. You can save points by just giving them autoguns instead. 3 shots at bolter strength, BS3 isn't really worth 5 points per model, even with the 36" range. If you want them to have a heavier weapon, the flamer autohits and gives the squad some assault protection.

Another thing to remember is that 5/6 times you will play an objective mission, and you have no transport for any of your troops. Walking squads of chaos marines from your deployment to your opponents is the ideal situation for every opponent. I'd give one or two a rhino, to get where you need.

Also, since you are taking 2 plasma guns on your squad, I'd either switch one out to melta, or give the sergeant combi-melta instead. Especially if you fight Necrons (AV 13 is hard to take down with plasma) and Marines (That land raider redeemer is going to make you cry).

If the obliterators are marked with Tzeentch because you like Tzeentch, keep it. Nurgle I think is a smidge better.... but it's probably more of a preference, and dependent on the terrain you play with. I like Tzeentch on my Daemon Prince because of the reason you gave, rerolling 1's on a 3+ save is pretty cool.

[Caitsidhe]

Playing an entirely footslogging army is more or less suicide in the current META. Helldrakes and Obliterators are always great and will do their jobs. The question is whether or not the rest of your army can do theirs. I don't think so. You could fill your HQ slot with the Nurgle DP w/Power Armor, Wings, Combat Familiar, and Black Mace for the points you have left and be legal. Your list would even look a LOT like the one I use... we would both be using two Helldrakes, 4-6 Obliterators, and the aforementioned DP.

What would seperate us is options. You have more scoring units, four to my three (and bigger). I have transports and tougher units as well as another HQ choice to make my Cult Troops scoring (oh and I usually run with an Aegis and Quad). My standard 1850 List goes like this:

Nurgle DP w/Power Armor, Wings, Combat Familiar, and Black Mace
Chaos Lord w/Mark of Nurgle, Burning Brand, and Power Axe

7 Plague Marines w/2x Melta, Rhino (Dirge Casters), and Power Axe on Champion
7 Plague Marines w/2x Melta, Rhino (Dirge Casters), and Power Axe on Champion
5 Basic CSM

Aegis w/Quad

2x Obliterator w/Mark of Nurgle
1x Obliterator w/Mark of Nurgle
1x Obliterator w/Mark of Nurgle

3x Terminator w/Power Axe and Combi-Melta

Helldrake w/Baleflamer
Helldrake w/Baleflamer

The difference in our lists are options and the likelyhood of being able to utilize those options. Your special weapon loadout is Plasma but for full effect you have to be within 12" of your opponent. They have to oblige you by getting close or you have to footslog to them. Most of the time if they are coming to you, they are going to unload their weapons on you first. Problematic. The proliferation of cover ignoring, high strength (and often AP-3) weapons makes things particularly hard on a Footslogging army, particularly one like yours. Your only AA option are Vector Strikes with your Helldrakes and twin-linked weapons from the Obliterators. These aren't "awful" but you could use the third, more reliable option.

Right now(until we see how you spend the last few points) the only option you have to play this army is to dig them in camping objectives and hope the opponent runs right at you with enough time to shoot them a lot.

[Chaoschrist]

Thanks for the input.

Here's a revised list based on some input. I have thought about Plague marines, but it's too much of a points investment since I'd also need a Nurgle HQ (that's not a DP).

I decided to drop the cultists alltogether (might save me some time painting, lol) and decided to roll with the aforementioned rhinos. I opted to not get more anti-flyer stuff, since... with the luck I usually have against flyers, I'll be doing fine. Last week I ran 3 lascannon Razorbacks and my friend brought in 2 Necron flyers (which were proxied, did a terrible job, so he probably wont bring any in the future, lol). They managed to get a single wound of my Dreadknight before I downed em both with lascannon fire. So unless said friend goes full cron air, I don't even know if I need a lot of anti-air right now.

So the list for now;

Troops

Chaos Space marine squad; 10 models, 1 x Plasmagun, 1 x meltagun, Champion has combi-melta, Icon of Vengeance (200)
Rhino w/ Dirgecaster, Combi-melta & Havoc launcher (57)
Chaos Space marine squad; 10 models, 1 x Plasmagun, 1 x meltagun, Champion has combi-melta, Icon of Vengeance (200)
Rhino w/ Dirgecaster, Combi-melta & Havoc launcher (57)
Chaos Space marine squad; 10 models, 1 x Plasmagun, 1 x meltagun, Champion has combi-melta, Icon of Vengeance (200)
Rhino w/ Dirgecaster, Combi-melta & Havoc launcher (57)

Fast attack

Helldrake w/ Baleflamer (170)

Helldrake w/ Baleflamer (170)

Heavy Support

2 x Obliterator w/ Mark of Tzeentch (156)

2 x Obliterator w/ Mark of Tzeentch (156)

2 x Obliterator w/ Mark of Tzeentch (156)

HQ

Daemon prince; Wings, Armor, Black mace, Daemon of Tzeentch (265)

That's, if my math is correct; 1844 points.

6 points to spare... I might drop the Havoc Launchers for a Mastery level on the prince, though I'm not decided on that. Perhaps, based on if I go with a mastery level, looking at the either Nurgle or Tzeentch primaris powers might benefit more, since it doesn't change the pointscost.

Aside from this all; I have 9 marines assembled (icon, plasma, 7 bolters), and a Winged prince painted up (Tzeentch colors, but whatever). That's all I have around for Chaos anyway, so it can go either way in terms of models.

I am wondering though, what's the reasoning behind Nurgle vs. Tzeentch on the oblits? Purely a math hammer thing? I can see how it protects from instant death, but the 5++ vs. 4++ should account for something I guess.

[Garradh]

Oblits - 4+ prevents the lascannon from wounding you, 5+ prevents the wound from insta-gibbing you. Better a 33% chance to ignore it but still keep fighting, than a 50% chance to die.

[Caitsidhe]

Oblits - 4+ prevents the lascannon from wounding you, 5+ prevents the wound from insta-gibbing you. Better a 33% chance to ignore it but still keep fighting, than a 50% chance to die.

This is absolutely on the money. Odd sare you are going to dig your Obliterators into some cover anyway, so you aren't significantly changing their odds of survival against certain weapons by the MOT. The MON by contrast ensures that you don't get turned off by STR-8 to 9 Weaponry which is very plentiful. Moreover, T5 reduces the number of saves from volume of fire assaults. Between the two marks there really is no good reason not to go Nurgle.

[Caitsidhe]

I do like the list somewhat better with the elimination of the Cultists and the addition of Rhinos w/Dirge Casters. I'm not sold on the MOT or DOT choices. Based on my own experiences, I have found the MON better.

[Chaoschrist]

The argument for MoT vs. MoN on the oblits is a good one, so I'll change those around. Shaves off a few points, which makes me think if I really should drop havoc launchers (or at least make them detachable from the model).

Going from MoT to MoN clears up another 12 points. Dropping the Havoc launchers adds another 36... with the 6pts. I had left, gives me about 50 points to wiggle. 2 mastery levels on the prince might work, since I found the Tzeentch psychic powers more supportive than the Nurgle ones.

Besides, looking at a Nurgle prince, it gives me SnP, which pretty much doesn't allow sweeping advance. With I8 on a prince, and facing necrons regularly I'd rather take those units out through a sweeping advance. Unless of course I'm mistaken and princes cannot do a SA anyway. One can argue that you shouldn't charge necron warriors and find bigger targets to take out. But no troops means less scoring units, so yeah....

So as it stands it'll be a mixed Nurgle/Tzeentch force with a Tzeentch prince and Nurgle oblits.

Thanks for insight so far all :)

[Caitsidhe]

It is true that that you cannot make a "sweeping advance" if you have the MON, but I haven't found that to be a particularly onerous problem. Then again, I rarely charge Necrons while they are still in large numbers, preferring to devastate their numbers with incoming Helldrakes first. I like a sure thing; which means I want ALL the Necrons to die when I hit them and not worry about any running away. A useful trick is to jump into your 1" charge range close to cover but not in it so your slaughter move allows you to get back into cover after the fight and let you take full advantage of the Shrouding again. For my own purposes I like starting my Daemon Prince on the board somewhat safely so I don't have to wait for it to come from reserves. The Nurgle DP has always provided the safest option for that against the most possible threats via the cover save. Since I almost always take an Aegis I'm guaranteed a 2+ against the few things that are going to be really dangerous if my opponent goes first.

I agree that Daemons of Tzentch aren't horrible if you want some specific magic they provide you. At least you see the benefit in the Nugle change on the Obliterators. If/when I take Disciplines they are almost always Biomancy heavy and one from my God. Truth be told I don't take Disciplines much anymore as I have found the return sketchy at best and the risk via Mindstrike missiles great if/when I run into GK or opponents with GK as allies.

[Power Klawz]

About the only scenario I can think of MoT outperforming MoN on obliterators is against plasma spam. That's a pretty common thing to face currently though so it might be worth thinking about. Imperial plasma still wounds T5 on a 2+ so you see no benefit. Against tau and eldar plasma you've got about a 42% chance of taking a wound per hit either way so you don't lose much.

MoN is still probably your best bet due to its effectiveness against massed fire and removing instant death from everything but S10.

I'm not really understanding the daemon prince in this list though. I mean you've all ready built the least friendly chaos list imaginable, its spamtastic in the extreme so why not go the whole nine yards? Drop in the cheapest possible HQ and take a third drake, you're all ready so far on the dark side it doesn't matter anymore.

[Caitsidhe]

I'm not really understanding the daemon prince in this list though. I mean you've all ready built the least friendly chaos list imaginable, its spamtastic in the extreme so why not go the whole nine yards? Drop in the cheapest possible HQ and take a third drake, you're all ready so far on the dark side it doesn't matter anymore.

Really? I consider his list soft. I'd eat him for lunch. The Daemon Prince w/Black Mace is really important to an all comer CSM list because it provides additional AP-2. There just aren't enough Obliterators to deal with several of the Terminator spam armies without the DP. If you are want to talk about the "dark side," which this guy is nowhere near... you are talking about

Nurgle Daemon Prince w/Power Armor, Wings, Combat Familiar and Black Mace
Nurgle Daemon Prince w/Power Armor, Wings & Combat Familiar

3x Nurgle Oblits
3x Nurgle Oblits
3x Nurgle Oblits

Helldrake w/Baleflamer
Helldrake w/Baleflamer
Helldrake w/Baleflamer

*Then Cultists to meet minimum+ troop requirements up to what you can afford w/no upgrades beyond numbers.

[Power Klawz]

If you consider that list to be radically different from the OP's list then I don't think we're operating on the same wavelength here. Its obliterator and drake spam, whatever else you put in there is just potpourri, the effects is the same.

[Caitsidhe]

If you consider that list to be radically different from the OP's list then I don't think we're operating on the same wavelength here. Its obliterator and drake spam, whatever else you put in there is just potpourri, the effects is the same.

It is radically different. The difference between six and nine Obliterators is huge. The difference between one DP and two is likewise worlds apart. And yes, the difference between two and three Helldrakes is also massively different. It may not seem like adding one more is that big a deal but it is the gulf against which some simply cannot match the air power with AA and a guaranteed flamer gets through. There is a difference between repetition in a list and true spam.

I define spam as taking the MOST of the best. Someone purposely taking less than they could easily do is not spamming you. Two does not equal spam. Suggesting the OP is a spammer for two Helldrakes is quite silly when he could easily be doing this.

[Caitsidhe]

And in fairness to the OP and myself, neither of us take three Helldrakes or spam nine Obliterators... or double up on Daemon Princes. However... if YOUR attitude is how we are viewed for taking less... we might as well take more. In short, if you are going to hold us in the same regard as the list I just demonstrated we might well DO THE CRIME... if you are going to give us the rep and hence we are doing the time anyway.

[Power Klawz]

That's basically exactly what I said, glad we agree.

[Caitsidhe]

That's basically exactly what I said, glad we agree.

So you are saying anyone who uses more than say (1) Helldrake is a spammer. :D I suspect it is that kind of attitude that is going to encourage more CSM players to spam all the way. The label doesn't get any worse.

[Power Klawz]

Well they are the bad boys of 40k, I don't think its out of character.

[Caitsidhe]

Well they are the bad boys of 40k, I don't think its out of character.

<chuckles> You are bleeding Fluff w/Out of Game Labels and it probably isn't a good thing.

[Power Klawz]

Well its not like I'd throw my hands in the air and start raving like a lunatic if I came up against a 3 drake list. I don't play tournaments so its not like winning or losing has any inherent merit to me, I'd probably enjoy the challenge.

Its all about having fun, if I can play a game against someone who is chill and just happens to have a beardy list I can still have fun.

I will admit though that my initial statement that the OP had built the least friendly list imaginable was a gross overstatement as has been evinced by your even beardier list.

[Caitsidhe]

Well its not like I'd throw my hands in the air and start raving like a lunatic if I came up against a 3 drake list. I don't play tournaments so its not like winning or losing has any inherent merit to me, I'd probably enjoy the challenge.

Its all about having fun, if I can play a game against someone who is chill and just happens to have a beardy list I can still have fun.

I will admit though that my initial statement that the OP had built the least friendly list imaginable was a gross overstatement as has been evinced by your even beardier list.

That isn't even the beardiest list I could build. I avoid terms like "spammer" and all that jazz because I don't care how tough a list someone brings as long as they are good folk and don't cheat. I try to give the same in return. I'm a competitive player but along with that I believe in the golden rule of "don't be a jerk" while giving your all.

Hell, I don't particularly enjoy playing against the Godzilla lists that are all the rage these days, but as long as the player is of a decent sort, the game isn't going to suck. You can trust me, however, that the OP's first list is not particularly unfriendly. I would call that a friendly "pick up" list in my META.

[Power Klawz]

40k isn't a competitive game so I don't see the merit in exploiting obviously unbalanced lists. A game where balance is a key component like MTG on the other hand I'll be as ruthless as possible, because that's how the game was designed to be played.

People who make model purchasing decisions based on rules and look up netlists are anathema to me. I like painting little army men and making explosion noises in my head when I roll well.

[Caitsidhe]

40k isn't a competitive game so I don't see the merit in exploiting obviously unbalanced lists. A game where balance is a key component like MTG on the other hand I'll be as ruthless as possible, because that's how the game was designed to be played.

That's the thing. It is a competitive game. It is a head to head wargame simulation. I agree with you that it isn't a BALANCED game and thus isn't the best game for competition, but that is irrelevant. Competitive people can make anything into a competition. People who attend tournaments know it is a competition. People who are playing pick up games can easily agree to whatever terms they want (and not have it competitive if they both agree).


People who make model purchasing decisions based on rules and look up netlists are anathema to me. I like painting little army men and making explosion noises in my head when I roll well.

And that is all well and good, but I don't know why you should begrudge people their fun and what they like to do with their toy soldiers when they don't begrudge you. This goes twice over when it doesn't affect you at all. You play the way you like and they play the way they like. Why do you care what lists people take to tournaments if you don't play in them?

[Power Klawz]

I don't begrudge anyone their idiosyncratic pleasures, I simply don't understand them.

A competitive game is one in which the outcome is predicated on skill. You can't play a perfect game of chess and lose, you can't win a basketball game unless you played better than your opponent.

You can lose a game of 40k despite making every correct decision however. There are some elements of skill based gameplay, but not enough to consider it competitive in nature. Its a roleplaying game focused on skirmish type warfare, the idea is to create a narrative involving attractive looking models and scenery. Its a game focused on aesthetics mainly. I just don't understand why one would delve into such a game when looking for skill based competition.

But this isn't really connected to the original post at all so I'll leave it at that.

[Caitsidhe]

I don't begrudge anyone their idiosyncratic pleasures, I simply don't understand them.

That is a fair statement. I don't understand the joy and serenity some people get from painting. I pay people to do mine because I just don't enjoy it. I'd rather play. What concerns me is the the fact that people like me, don't spend all our time attacking people like you because we don't understand you. We just accept "to each their own" and go about our lives. If the reverse was true it would be a happier hobby. Part of the hobby to many seems to be coming up with labels and insults for people whom they don't understand and don't have to play with anyway.

[Power Klawz]

Well to wax philosophical for a moment, what is the intent of this thread? What is the desired outcome of this discussion?

These are important questions, the answers to which should rightly appear counter-intuitive given the context. Someone wants others to judge the efficacy of his choices, he desires this in order to do what? To enjoy himself more or to win more games?

This then leads to other questions, what is an enjoyable experience to this person in regards to this game? That hasn't been discussed at all. Does he enjoy winning at any cost? Does he enjoy challenging himself with limited choices? Does he enjoy employing novel and interesting tactics that surprise his opponent, whether or not they produce victory?

None of these questions are raised or answered because the assumed intent is someone looking to simply win an arbitrary points game. There is no thought given to what is "fun" or who will be having it. There is an unhealthy emphasis placed on "victory" when such considerations are materially meaningless.

And what of the spirit of the game? Why is this army called Chaos Space Marines? Why not call it flying templates and multi-wound heavy weapons, permutation 1763. There is no narrative here, there is no personality, in short there is no need for the setting or the artistry, it could just as easily be an assortment of clearly labeled cardboard tabs sticking out of slotta-bases.

The irony inherent to this circumstance is that none of this would exist without the stories. All those rules and numbers are extensions and translations of a narrative. These units are conceived in a fictional universe that exists to create stories, to explore the imagination. If anything this list defeats its own purpose, and the purpose of the game.

Why are you building a list without character? Why are you playing a game without a story?

[Caitsidhe]

Well to wax philosophical for a moment, what is the intent of this thread? What is the desired outcome of this discussion?

When someone asks for tactical advice on a list, they want competitive advice. They don't need help with the Fluff or character of a list. Such things are subjective and our advice wouldn't be of anymore value than that of the OP. Thus in the TACTICS area where people ask for feedback on their lists, I woudl guess the outcome is to get useful tactical advice.


These are important questions, the answers to which should rightly appear counter-intuitive given the context. Someone wants others to judge the efficacy of his choices, he desires this in order to do what? To enjoy himself more or to win more games?

Again, we are in the tactical area are we not? A better question is why did you jump into the area and this thread in particular when it was clear from the OP's responses to us that he is looking for competitive advice? :D


This then leads to other questions, what is an enjoyable experience to this person in regards to this game? That hasn't been discussed at all. Does he enjoy winning at any cost? Does he enjoy challenging himself with limited choices? Does he enjoy employing novel and interesting tactics that surprise his opponent, whether or not they produce victory?

This doesn't lead to those questions. You are leading to those questions because I asked you why you seem to find it so important to spend your time making up labels and insulting a type of player you don't understand and don't have to play with anyway. In short, this is called misdirection. It is well done but it doesn't work on me. I'm not going to let you change the subject that easy.


None of these questions are raised or answered because the assumed intent is someone looking to simply win an arbitrary points game. There is no thought given to what is "fun" or who will be having it. There is an unhealthy emphasis placed on "victory" when such considerations are materially meaningless.

Now you are telling us that how we play is unhealthy and we are back to labels and judgement again. Are you one of those people who tells people that they shouldn't smoke or critques their food selections at restaurants? This goes back to my comments earlier. The OP put a list up and asked for advice in a tactical area of this site. Several of us started giving it and he seemed to appreciate it. You jumped in to take cheap shots. What exactly is your hobby again? :D

[Power Klawz]

I'm just asking questions absent any emotional content.

I wasn't aware my labeling was insulting you, my apologies. I'll refrain from using labels in my future interactions with you. I just sort of toss around things like "spammy" and "beardy" light heatedly, as I don't take wargames very seriously.

I will say, however, that I do not think this topic is as cut and dry as you are making it out to be. There has been no meaningful discussion of tactics in this thread. A few strategic concepts have been breached in relation to which marks to take for the obliterators, but nothing really in the way of tactis, and why should there be?

This isn't actually a tactical discussion area. This particular thread is a strategic discussion thread with very little to discuss since the aforementioned list is composed of repetitive units that are widely considered to be the most efficacious for their cost. There is very little to be garnered from such a conversation other than a few approving head nods and a few points of minutiae. I originally posted to enter the conversation about marks and how Tzeentch is good against plasma spam, since it hadn't been mentioned previously, I then went on to suggest taking a third drake as, honestly, that's the only logical outcome of an exercise like this.

I see very little in the way of interesting or intriguing conversation on these boards so I figured I'd try and engineer some of my own, unfortunately my efforts at provoking thought seem to have provoked vitriol instead (and an eerie overabundance of smiley faces if I do say so myself.) so I'll just see myself out the way I came in.

[Caitsidhe]

I'm just asking questions absent any emotional content.

You jumped into the conversation saying that the OP had one of the most unfriendly lists you had ever seen. I suppose I can envision you saying it like Spock (devoid of emotion) but let's not pretend your comments weren't loaded.


I wasn't aware my labeling was insulting you, my apologies. I'll refrain from using labels in my future interactions with you. I just sort of toss around things like "spammy" and "beardy" light heatedly, as I don't take wargames very seriously.

You didn't insult me. You simply made several, common gross generalizations about an entire grouping of gamers. You made leading statements and indicated you saw no difference between the OP's list (which you labeled as unfriendly) and the one I put up which WAS very unfriendly. Gross generalizations are by their very nature insulting.


I will say, however, that I do not think this topic is as cut and dry as you are making it out to be. There has been no meaningful discussion of tactics in this thread. A few strategic concepts have been breached in relation to which marks to take for the obliterators, but nothing really in the way of tactis, and why should there be?

Several tactical options for list building have been discussed. Further strategies and tactics can't really be gone into depth until a final list is built because specific tactics and overall strategy depends entirely on what tools you have. I fully plan on making some particular tactical suggestions (as I did in how you should move to make the most of an assault with a Nurgle DP for jumping back into terrain after the fight). Tactics require logistics and for logistics we need a list.


This isn't actually a tactical discussion area.

It isn't? 40K Army Lists appears to be sub-forum under Tactics.


This particular thread is a strategic discussion thread with very little to discuss since the aforementioned list is composed of repetitive units that are widely considered to be the most efficacious for their cost. There is very little to be garnered from such a conversation other than a few approving head nods and a few points of minutiae.

I disagree. Having the right tools does not impart the knowledge of how to use them. The aforementioned list is not point and shoot. You can try that but you will lose. There are lots of important factors that must come together (i.e. you must create the conditions on the battlefield) for everything to work properly. Since you openly say you don't take the game seriously and aren't competitive, perhaps the nuances of that are lost on you. People who aren't devoted drinkers of wine can rarely taste the differences between vintages but I assure you those differences are there.


I originally posted to enter the conversation about marks and how Tzeentch is good against plasma spam, since it hadn't been mentioned previously, I then went on to suggest taking a third drake as, honestly, that's the only logical outcome of an exercise like this.

I defer that to you. You did start with that. Your digression into the Drake did not sound like an attempt at a logical outcome. It sounded like you were taking a shot at him. If I read too much into it, then you have my apology. I doubt I was reading too much into it because your later posts continued in that vein. As it happens, you are wrong about it being the logical progression. A third Helldrake is not a competitive choice because Tournaments are blind. You don't know what you are facing and you have to build for a variety of situations. Most competitive people do not put three Helldrakes on the table. Most play one or two because they need the points (particularly in 1850 or less) for other things. You see it a logical progression because of personal bias. A competitive player simply sees it as a bad choice which will unbalance them against several critical match ups.


I see very little in the way of interesting or intriguing conversation on these boards so I figured I'd try and engineer some of my own, unfortunately my efforts at provoking thought seem to have provoked vitriol instead (and an eerie overabundance of smiley faces if I do say so myself.) so I'll just see myself out the way I came in.

So you found us boring and felt you would enlighten us? :D I never said I didn't find your attempt to wax philosophical interesting. I merely pointed out that there are places for that and jumping into this guys requests for list advice probably wasn't the place.

[Power Klawz]

To be fair both ways, the majority of threads in this subforum don't go past a few comments and none of them tend to reach a point that is any more involved than "take more X, get rid of Y."

I did, however, assume this thread would follow suit and therefore did not give it its due respect.

[Caitsidhe]

To be fair both ways, the majority of threads in this subforum don't go past a few comments and none of them tend to reach a point that is any more involved than "take more X, get rid of Y."

I did, however, assume this thread would follow suit and therefore did not give it its due respect.

Fair enough. In my case, being as fond of the sound of my own voice as I am, you can always assume I'll go into further detail when the time comes. I personally think logistics (building a list to provide you with the right tools to support one's personal strengths and fighting style) is only about a quarter of the skills needed to win games (play competitively). The majority isn't in the list which is why good players can win with less efficient lists.