Where to start?

[Renegade]

So I am looking at putting an Empire army together, something that follows some background I have thought up.

The theme runs as close as possible to 16-17th century set up as possible, and no mages. The background in a nut shell is that they are a Border Princes settlement that have thrown off the yoke, believe the nobility corrupt while excepting the role of the Emperor as a force to unite the race of men, in Sigmars name.

Units I am thinking of taking are Captains, Preists, Witching Hunters. Spearmen, Halberdiers, and Handgunners. Pistoleers and Great Cannon.

Thoughts on what else would probably fit and give the army a bit of punch?

Edit: Thinking along the "New Model Army" theme.

[Chronowraith]

Archers/Huntsmen representing free folk from the countryside.
Free Company representing lower class rabble (rioters?)
Mortar (if you accept cannons, mortars should be there too)
Outriders, the guns may be a little over the top but they could represent early carbine cavalry.
Flagellants, even in the 16-17th century there were crazy people who thought the end of the world was coming.
Hurricanium, Could potentially be used as a war alter type of thing with the bonuses being represented more as a morale thing than magical effects.

Just some thoughts. Good luck on assembling the army! I always like the themed ones!

[Renegade]

Archers/Huntsmen representing free folk from the countryside.
Free Company representing lower class rabble (rioters?)

Could work depending on the narrative.


Mortar (if you accept cannons, mortars should be there too)

Thinking bout these, cheers for reminding me.


Outriders, the guns may be a little over the top but they could represent early carbine cavalry.

Still not sure how to justify the tech in that part of the region.


Flagellants, even in the 16-17th century there were crazy people who thought the end of the world was coming.

What do they bring to the table top?


Hurricanium, Could potentially be used as a war alter type of thing with the bonuses being represented more as a morale thing than magical effects.


Hadn't thought about that, I feel a conversion coming on.

[Wildeybeast]

I think your fluff is good, but I'd be concerned about the lack of wizards. At lower points you will get by ok, but once you start hitting 2000 points and upwards you are going to be dominated in the magic phase. Most people will be rolling level 4's and that extra boost in power and lack of dispel scrolls means you will struggle to dispel much. When it comes to casting, you are going to find the majority of your prayers being dispelled. If the fluff and fun is your key goal then by all means press ahead, but be prepared to struggle in some games.

[Renegade]

I think your fluff is good, but I'd be concerned about the lack of wizards. At lower points you will get by ok, but once you start hitting 2000 points and upwards you are going to be dominated in the magic phase. Most people will be rolling level 4's and that extra boost in power and lack of dispel scrolls means you will struggle to dispel much. When it comes to casting, you are going to find the majority of your prayers being dispelled. If the fluff and fun is your key goal then by all means press ahead, but be prepared to struggle in some games.

Against the more competitive players I am going to get stomped anyway, so may as well play something I like. :D

[Wildeybeast]

Fair enough, have fun then!

[Renegade]

Fair enough, have fun then!

I know I'll be facing Empire, Dwarfs, Elfs, Daemons, Bretons and Vampires. The rest I have no idea if played locally, as I haven't seen anyone use them... perhaps the odd Scaven and Night Gobbos. I know that I'll be facing people that have played these armies for a long time.

Need some hints on Flagellants, Great Swords and the likes of Luthor Huss.

What size battles am I likely to face death-stars?

How hammered am I looking at getting by not taking mages against the armies I've listed?

[Chronowraith]

I know I'll be facing Empire, Dwarfs, Elfs, Daemons, Bretons and Vampires. The rest I have no idea if played locally, as I haven't seen anyone use them... perhaps the odd Scaven and Night Gobbos. I know that I'll be facing people that have played these armies for a long time.

Need some hints on Flagellants, Great Swords and the likes of Luthor Huss.

What size battles am I likely to face death-stars?

How hammered am I looking at getting by not taking mages against the armies I've listed?


Death Stars can appear at just about any point level over 1000 points. The difference is a matter of scale. 20 Chosen at 1000 points is pretty hardcore but at 2000 points wouldn't even be considered a death star.

Against Dwarves & Bretons low magic is fine. Against Empire it depends on the army. Daemons, Elves, and Vampires though will eat through you if you have no magic defense. As far as Night Gobbos and Skaven, Skaven can cause a lot of problems with no magic defense as well.

[Renegade]

Death Stars can appear at just about any point level over 1000 points. The difference is a matter of scale. 20 Chosen at 1000 points is pretty hardcore but at 2000 points wouldn't even be considered a death star.

Against Dwarves & Bretons low magic is fine. Against Empire it depends on the army. Daemons, Elves, and Vampires though will eat through you if you have no magic defense. As far as Night Gobbos and Skaven, Skaven can cause a lot of problems with no magic defense as well.

And the only way to get magic defence is through mages?

[Wildeybeast]

Effective defence, yes. Warrior Priests let you channel extra power and dispel dice so you aren't completely defenceless, but only on a roll of a six. Since you add your magic level to each casting/dispel attempt, most people are going to be +4 ahead of you before you even pick up the dice. It's also the only way to get effective anti-magic items like the ubiquitous dispel scroll. At 1000 points or less, you will be ok with just priests, but above that you will struggle.

As for flagellants, not many people use them as they are probably the weakest choice in the special section. A 12 point model with no armour save is always going to be an easy target. You need to roll them in big blocks so you still have enough left when they get to combat. I'd recommend 30+.

I love greatswords. They are better than flagellants in every regard, except being stubborn rather than unbreakable, as well as being a point cheaper. Give them the standard of discipline and keep them in range of you BSB (or better yet, put it with them) and they aren't going anywhere. I know the Empire playing public at large don't rate them that highly when put alongside cannons and demigryphs, but I never leave home without them. Luthor Huss is good value for his points (if not for money - £18:eek:). Stick him in a unit of knights or demigryphs and watch them mush stuff.

[Renegade]

Effective defence, yes. Warrior Priests let you channel extra power and dispel dice so you aren't completely defenceless, but only on a roll of a six. Since you add your magic level to each casting/dispel attempt, most people are going to be +4 ahead of you before you even pick up the dice. It's also the only way to get effective anti-magic items like the ubiquitous dispel scroll. At 1000 points or less, you will be ok with just priests, but above that you will struggle.

Bugger... Witch-hunters not bringing anything special to deal with witches then :confused:


As for flagellants, not many people use them as they are probably the weakest choice in the special section. A 12 point model with no armour save is always going to be an easy target. You need to roll them in big blocks so you still have enough left when they get to combat. I'd recommend 30+.

I love greatswords. They are better than flagellants in every regard, except being stubborn rather than unbreakable, as well as being a point cheaper. Give them the standard of discipline and keep them in range of you BSB (or better yet, put it with them) and they aren't going anywhere. I know the Empire playing public at large don't rate them that highly when put alongside cannons and demigryphs, but I never leave home without them. Luthor Huss is good value for his points (if not for money - £18:eek:). Stick him in a unit of knights or demigryphs and watch them mush stuff.

I was recommended Flagellates by someone, got to say that I wasn't particularly sold on them as Great Swords fit better with the Captain options. Considering Luthor for tourney size (2400 pts... who decides these crazy numbers!?) games .

Sounds like normal size games are going to give me problems... bugger, bugger, bugger... I am guessing that magic hasn't changed so much that a wizard could count as some priest who knows some nifty stuff? Light and nature for example, would make reasonable priestly spells (bugger... so much for going Puritan Sigmarite!).

[Tyrendian]

well, depending on how strictly you want to stay "real" 16th cent., you might consider running a Lore of Fire guy who's basically some talented alchemist who has loads of flammable stubstances on his person - incorporating the anti-magic aspect of it all into the background will be difficult though...

[Wildeybeast]

Witch Hunters are good at killing wizards, but only when you get close to them. If you have them running around on their own your opponent will pick them off before they do any damage and if you have them in a unit it becomes difficult to get them to the wizard. They do give you magic resistance 2, which is useful against some spells. There's no reason you can't use a priest model and fluff to count but wizard rules, as long as it is clear to your opponent.

[Renegade]

In that case Witch Hunters will find themselves with pistoleers and hunters, fast and flexible units.
I feel conversions may become the order of the day.

I think I may see how I do without mages before going down the count as alchemist/tricksy priest route.

[Wildeybeast]

Except they can't be mounted or scout. Sorry to keep raining on your parade.

[Renegade]

Except they can't be mounted or scout. Sorry to keep raining on your parade.

***Waves hands in the air and declares that the gods are of questionable paternal lineage***

I think I will have to spend some time studying the book.:(

[Renegade]

Except they can't be mounted or scout. Sorry to keep raining on your parade.

Going over the rule book, and can't find anywhere that states the ability to skirmish is lost when a character joins it, and that is what I was looking at.

Witch Hunter with Mask of EEE and Ruby Ring would be an ideal headache unit, able to snipe at a couple of feet with a fireball... Happy days:D

[Wildeybeast]

You can definitely put him in a skirmishing unit, but AFAIK, they wouldn't be able to deploy using the scouts rule. Interestingly, the FAQ'a don't cover this, though they do cover Vangaurd moves, so I'm not entirely certain on this.

[Renegade]

You can definitely put him in a skirmishing unit, but AFAIK, they wouldn't be able to deploy using the scouts rule. Interestingly, the FAQ'a don't cover this, though they do cover Vangaurd moves, so I'm not entirely certain on this.

Well I get the scouts rule just from reading the BRB, while Skirmish has no rules that I can see that would effect a Witch Hunter from joining. Either way I just need to keep them within 3" to gain some benefit to the Witch hunter to stop him being snipped on his lonesome, and Mask of EEE benefiting the Skirmishers.

That is unless I have read something wrong, but it is how I would read it from my 40K experience.

[Wildeybeast]

Yeah, he'll get look out sir if he stays in range. I'm just not sure you can deploy them as scouts if he is joined to the unit.

[Renegade]

Yeah, he'll get look out sir if he stays in range. I'm just not sure you can deploy them as scouts if he is joined to the unit.

I am still working out deployment.

Is it that you place the units, then the general and heroes, then scouts or am I reading it wrong? Cause that would stop a witch hunter joining a scouting unit at the start of the game, though he could still end up in the "look out sir!" bubble.

However, I do now have a general, 3 captains, Two boxes of handgunners and a painted unit, Two of state troops and some painted spearmen, a rather chunky box of knights and another of free militia, and a Great cannon (and a wizard, but we'll forget about him for now but looking at tinkering with the fluff). Must be coming close to a playable list in there somewhere.

[Chronowraith]

If a unit skirmishes and a character joins it, it still skirmishes as per the "Characters" section under skirmishing on page 77.

Scouting is different. What you have to remember is that scouts DEPLOY AFTER THE REST OF THE NON-SCOUTING ARMY. So the only way for a character to deploy with the unit is if they themselves have the scout rule. Otherwise the character would get deployed with all the other characters as per regular deployment rules for the scenario.

[Renegade]

If a unit skirmishes and a character joins it, it still skirmishes as per the "Characters" section under skirmishing on page 77.

Scouting is different. What you have to remember is that scouts DEPLOY AFTER THE REST OF THE NON-SCOUTING ARMY. So the only way for a character to deploy with the unit is if they themselves have the scout rule. Otherwise the character would get deployed with all the other characters as per regular deployment rules for the scenario.

Isn't that basically what I said?

[Wildeybeast]

Yes. You are both correct. The issue is if you deploy the scouts outside your deployment zone, there is no way the WH will catch up to them. If you put them in the deployment zone, you may as well just go for archers and not bother with huntsmen. Though if you are just looking for cheap throwaway unit to 'lookout sir' him next to, I'm pretty sure spearmen work out cheapest.

[Renegade]

Yes. You are both correct. The issue is if you deploy the scouts outside your deployment zone, there is no way the WH will catch up to them. If you put them in the deployment zone, you may as well just go for archers and not bother with huntsmen. Though if you are just looking for cheap throwaway unit to 'lookout sir' him next to, I'm pretty sure spearmen work out cheapest.

I like the flexibility the unit has as well as the harassment value. There primary use is the look out sir, the secondary is to distract away from the witch hunter.
I use sentinels in the same way for tanks in 40K. The are a weaker and easier target, but with a lascannon, they are also monster/tank hunters that target things that would target my heavier tanks.
Will have to see if the theory works along a similar vain, as neither are going to be units to ignore.

Hoping to put another witch hunter on an Araby Rug, which should be fun.

Problem I am having is that there is very little I can find on tactics on the use of witch hunters, even warseer is drawing up blanks.

Seems I am picking the least popular units :rolleyes:

[Wildeybeast]

I'm not sure there are any particular tactics for using them. They are good for hunting down wizards and that is about it. Get them near said wizard and kill it. WP give you better buffs, captains better combat abilities and hold the line. I basically take a witch hunter when I find I have 50 points left over in a list, rather than a magic item. they are the weakest of the heroes and definitely a fluff choice rather than a tactical one. they are awesome IF you can get them near a wizard, which any enemy worth his slat won't let you do.

[Chronowraith]

Agreed. Witch Hunters have some of the coolest fluff in the new Empire book, but they fall flat in the rules department. It's not hard to be better at fighting than a wizard and so they end up being an Empire Captain without all the options and tactical flexibility (hold the line!). I honestly think if they could scout, they would be seen on the tabletop more often and I'd take them even if they rose in points by 10-15 points. Right now though, I'm better off taking those 10 additional state troopers.

[Renegade]

Agreed. Witch Hunters have some of the coolest fluff in the new Empire book, but they fall flat in the rules department. It's not hard to be better at fighting than a wizard and so they end up being an Empire Captain without all the options and tactical flexibility (hold the line!). I honestly think if they could scout, they would be seen on the tabletop more often and I'd take them even if they rose in points by 10-15 points. Right now though, I'm better off taking those 10 additional state troopers.

Then what tactics would you use if playing a list that I want to use? How would you set up to be able to punch as a middle weight fluff orientated player?