Howling Banshees - A Conspiracy?

[Vallen]

Ever since reading the new Eldar Codex I've been asking myself "Why are the Howling Banshee rules so bad?"

I imagine many of you have asked yourself the same question.

When it comes down to it there really are only two possibilities:
1) It is an accident
Or.....
2) It was intentional

As far as accident's go GW has had their share of typo's and omissions and it is perfectly possible that an FAQ will come out and errata them grenades.

The second possibility is far more interesting. Was this unit intentionally made to be unusable? If so who is responsible? Was it the author or is someone else to blame?

Consider this. Shortly before the release of this codex GW released an FAQ or the BRB (back in April to be precise) it is due to a single change in this FAQ that makes the banshees' current rules useless:


Page 2 – Modifiers
Change the last sentence to “A model’s Initiative cannot be
modified below 1, and no other characteristic can be modified
below 0”.

Think about it. Prior to this Errata the banshee mask would have reduced 95% of all units to initiative 0 and thus the banshees fighting at initiative 1 (when charging through cover) would go first!

Did Kelly know about this upcoming change when he wrote the rule or was this slipped in to pre-nerf the unit before the codex was released? Could someone in the GW FAQ department have a grudge against the Howling Banshees? Or were they always destined to be unusable?

What are your thoughts?

[Nabterayl]

My thoughts are that GW disagrees that assault units only materially assault units in Difficult Terrain.

[HERO]

Books are written months in advance, however, changes to the FAQ are made with design in mind.

Unless of course, the FAQ department did not contact Kelly at all, and they involuntarily nerfed his Banshees into the ground. This could happen after all.

I don't know how many of you guys know this, but when people asked Phil Kelly what the Dark Eldar melee answer to Terminators are at Game Day, he replied "Huskblade". During that time, the FAQ changed the Huskblade to AP3 via the FAQ (6th ed. mass update) and he didn't even know! A couple of weeks later, the Huskblade was changed to AP2.

Who knows, we can get lucky and Banshees can reduce I to 0 for Banshees only.

[Fueldrop]

Banshees need grenades. The Eldar have finally developed them (yay) so an assault unit not having them makes little sense.
That said, combining the lack of an option to assault through cover with the nerf to power weapons in 6th edition (ap 3 instead of 2) and the low strength of banshees and they don't really look that attractive as an option, especially now that you can sprinkle power weapons into storm guardian squads.

[Vallen]

I don't know how many of you guys know this, but when people asked Phil Kelly what the Dark Eldar melee answer to Terminators are at Game Day, he replied "Huskblade". During that time, the FAQ changed the Huskblade to AP3 via the FAQ (6th ed. mass update) and he didn't even know! A couple of weeks later, the Huskblade was changed to AP2.

Lol great anecdote.


Banshees need grenades. The Eldar have finally developed them (yay) so an assault unit not having them makes little sense.
That said, combining the lack of an option to assault through cover with the nerf to power weapons in 6th edition (ap 3 instead of 2) and the low strength of banshees and they don't really look that attractive as an option, especially now that you can sprinkle power weapons into storm guardian squads.

Yes the thing most people didn't realize prior to 6th ed was that the Banshee was statistically equal to the Scorpion in combat. When it came to dealing damage to T4 MEQ both were equal. The extra attacks and higher strength of the scorpion made up for the fact that they could not cut armor. Vs TDA is where the Banshees really began to earn their points (assuming you could deliver them to combat). Given that they are still 4+ armor and only ap 3 now I would have thought they would get more of a points reduction than they got but oh well.

[chicop76]

Ever since reading the new Eldar Codex I've been asking myself "Why are the Howling Banshee rules so bad?"

I imagine many of you have asked yourself the same question.

When it comes down to it there really are only two possibilities:
1) It is an accident
Or.....
2) It was intentional

As far as accident's go GW has had their share of typo's and omissions and it is perfectly possible that an FAQ will come out and errata them grenades.

The second possibility is far more interesting. Was this unit intentionally made to be unusable? If so who is responsible? Was it the author or is someone else to blame?

Consider this. Shortly before the release of this codex GW released an FAQ or the BRB (back in April to be precise) it is due to a single change in this FAQ that makes the banshees' current rules useless:



Think about it. Prior to this Errata the banshee mask would have reduced 95% of all units to initiative 0 and thus the banshees fighting at initiative 1 (when charging through cover) would go first!

Did Kelly know about this upcoming change when he wrote the rule or was this slipped in to pre-nerf the unit before the codex was released? Could someone in the GW FAQ department have a grudge against the Howling Banshees? Or were they always destined to be unusable?

What are your thoughts?


The FAQ was because of Damonettes. Damoettes Herald and The Masque can do -5I. The problem was they are I 5 and higher. The thought was if I can lower marines, etc to 0 I would go at I one and strike first. Seeing how the FAQ just hard boiled Damonettes and no other FAQ to give Damonettes their grenades back I realized it was intentional.

Looking at what the did to Damonettes and how Harlequins recived many similar things. -5 Int, lost of grenades, +3 run, etc.

I would go out on a limb it's on purpose. With that said if banshees get FAQed grenades than Damonettes should as well. Honestly all Slaanesh should.

[eldargal]

Banshees need grenades.
This. Give them grenades or let the Mask ignore defensive terrain and they become a decent assault unit. Without grenades they are counts-as Scorpions or Harlequins. I have a lot of respect for Phil Kelly, he is my favourite codex writer from a holistic perspective even if Ward does better rules. But he doesn't get everything right and Banshees were a fairly spectacular mistake.

[Dalleron]

I would like to think that it is a mistake. GW makes a lot of mistakes in writing their codex's. DA faq'd immediately, elder faq'd before release day. I think Tau had a FAQ fairly quick as well.

I have to believe the Banshees are missing grenades, since most everyone else in the codex has them. I want to say the scorpions claw is missing unwieldly usr as well because it is a powerfist, albeit one with a shuricat. But the high price for it leans the otherway.

There is one thing I was wondering about regarding FAQs that pertains to Eldar, though it may apply to other things as well. Eldar had a couple things changed in the initial 6th ed FAQs, namely veil of XXX and Fuegan's rules. They were changed from one thing to another, then reverted back to their original rules. Why? Such a waste of time and effort if you going to do that? Don't they communicate amongst themselves over there?

Or this simply a case of "nothing shall be better than a space marine". It happened to shuricats, did it just happen again to Eldar?

[Nabterayl]

So ... as a non-eldar player, help me understand here. Is the thought, in fact, that no material assault ever happens except through Difficult Terrain?

[eldargal]

So ... as a non-eldar player, help me understand here. Is the thought, in fact, that no material assault ever happens except through Difficult Terrain?
If you are using the proper amount of terrain for a game and are fighting a player who knows what he is doing most material assaults should be occurring in or around terrain which will interfere with charges, yes. simply because of the importance and usefulness of cover saves and that many assaults in my experience occur around objectives which should be in or near defensible terrain. 150pts+ for a squad of T3 4+ Banshees is too much to pay for a squad that will have its signature equipmen nullified and its assault renders virtually useless by terrain getting in the way. It's bad enough you will be losing a couple of Banshees to Overwatch without then having them assault simultaneously. Banshees need to be able to hit hard and kill as many enemies as possible before they strike back if they are to have a chance of surviving. They cannot be guaranteed to do that now so you are better off going with a unit that will, like Scorpions or Harlequins.

[davel]

I wonder if the intention was to make the scorpions the aspect choice for assulting in to cover.

Last codex the got option to make them better at this, this codex they are standard rules for scorpions plus the also gain stealth(which the could get with th Phoenix)

I wonder also about the ap 3 power weapon. My first reaction was being annoyed. But on reflection with blade storm producing ap 2 hits. Are the banshee intended to take out meq troop choices?

Dave l

[eldargal]

If they wanted Scorpions to be the aspect for assaulting into cover they needed to give Banshees some kind of gimmick to make up for the disadvantage of lacking grenades.

[pauljc]

I'm all for Banshees not lobbing grenades about. Messy, unpredictable grenades aren't very 'Eldarish' in my opinion, anyway.

But, I think the core of the problem with Banshees at the moment, is that their rules don't live up to their fluff. In all the fluff and other media, the common image is of vengeful, screaming Eldar *****es slipping and striding and jumping through various terrain, to fall upon a shaken - or even terrified - foe. In the rules, currently, they just sort of run a bit faster, then jump right into a squad of bayonets.

Anyhoo, they are still viable, especially when in range of Warlock buffs. I have had average success with them so far. About as much as in the previous Codex. In fact, at this moment, I'm concocting an idea to have a large Banshee squad (with perhaps a Banshee-themed Autarch) in a Serpent, combined with perhaps Warlocks, Guardians, and/or Wraithguard, to form a threat behind enemy lines, and to split attention from the rest of my Ulthwe force. The Eldar certainly have more speed to do that.

[eldargal]

Warlocks can't join Banshee squads though so to keep them in range of warlock buffs, assuming you roll useful ones, you need to keep one or two squads of other troops nearby just to give the Banshees a shot at being vaguely effective. There is synergy and then there is designing your entire list to make an otherwise useless unit work.

I had considerable success using Banshees under the previous codex too, even when it was cool to call them sub-par. But now I see no compelling reason to take them at all and that makes me very sad.

[pauljc]

Yeah I know Warlocks can't. But I've got a feeling that Warlocks in their own right can be a dangerous unit with even average rolls on the Battle Runes table.

The basic idea is to run a kusarigama-style attack. Load up, say, three Serpents with Warlocks, Banshees, and Guardians or Wraithguard, and throw it into my enemy's backfield. Combining the Serpent's ability to throw out it's shield, or turn after firing, with an immediate Bladestorm threat, Warlocks with a decent load of dual-purpose powers, and a squad of Banshees dropping in behind the enemy's cover.. Plus, the rest of my army will be throwing out pew-pew, Vibro or D (heh.. Vibro-D.. that's durty), the final aimed result is that you snare and real in from one end, and slash 'em to pieces with the other end.

[eldargal]

See, I think you would be better off putting the points the Banshees would take into more Warlocks.

[pauljc]

Oh most likely, but sucky rules never deterred me from fielding units successfully before. :)

But I do entirely agree that Banshees have totally lost their gimmick, or mojo.

I don't give a toss about competitive play or whatever, but a unit needs to have some flavour. And Banshees don't, aside from being PMS elf chicks with swords.

[eldargal]

Yup, I don't care about what the tournament scene declares to be competitive either. But a unit needs to be able to do something. Banshees don't. It's a case of IF the unit isn't in cover IF I can get them in a position to assault without being shot at IF Overwatch doesn't kill too many IF I get warlocks nearby and IF I take a Farseer who gets Doom I might be able to use them effectively. I was happy running them with a Farseer before as a hard hitting, dangerous unit but now it's just pointless.


I recommend anyone who actually would like to use Banshees write to [email protected] and asking that plasma grenades be Errata'd into the Banshee profile. In fact even if you don't care writing to GW to try and encourage them to use Errata to rebalance units more would be a good thing regardless.

[pauljc]

Yeah, I feel ya. I downgraded my initial enthusiasm quite a bit after I'd tried out the new Codex a few times.

Honestly, all they really need is a dash of seasoning, a gimmick, some sort of mojo.

[eldargal]

Yep:

-Banshee Masks ignores defensive terrain bonuses & Acrobatic lets them count all vehicles as assault vehicles would be enough. Then the possible but unreliable synergy with psykers works without them relying on it or being OP if everything goes well.

or

Banshee Mask -5 I to minimum of 0 (overriding BRB) and gives them a 4+/5+ save against Overwatch fire.

That's withot examining the systemic problems with Banshees that have gone unaddressed. It would make them work though.

[Cleon]

Yep:

-Banshee Masks ignores defensive terrain bonuses & Acrobatic lets them count all vehicles as assault vehicles would be enough.


I think you have a different definition of "Enough" to most people I know. Being able to assault out of a wave serpent (or the wreck of one) in turn 2 after moving all the way across the board in turn 1, into terrain and attacking first seems a little too good to me.

I would suggest the following instead:
1) Acrobatic allows being able to assault out of an intact vehicle.
2) Banshee masks force a Ld test on the enemy (maybe at -2) if failed the unit cannot overwatch. (in addition to the current -5I)

[chicop76]

Yep:

-Banshee Masks ignores defensive terrain bonuses & Acrobatic lets them count all vehicles as assault vehicles would be enough. Then the possible but unreliable synergy with psykers works without them relying on it or being OP if everything goes well.

or

Banshee Mask -5 I to minimum of 0 (overriding BRB) and gives them a 4+/5+ save against Overwatch fire.

That's withot examining the systemic problems with Banshees that have gone unaddressed. It would make them work though.

They are not going t do option B. Daemon players complained about option B and we got I can't be lowered to one. They just made it not go lower to nerf damonettes from doing the same exact thing. I doubt gw will change it. I wouldn't mind cause damonettes would be much better, and I would stay taking the Masque for sure if that happens.

[Denzark]

You say 'conspiracy' - I say chill out Agent Mulder, its more like ineptitude.

[Fueldrop]

You say 'conspiracy' - I say chill out Agent Mulder, its more like ineptitude.

It's a conspiracy of inept people! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!

[eldargal]

I think you have a different definition of "Enough" to most people I know. Being able to assault out of a wave serpent (or the wreck of one) in turn 2 after moving all the way across the board in turn 1, into terrain and attacking first seems a little too good to me.

I would suggest the following instead:
1) Acrobatic allows being able to assault out of an intact vehicle.
2) Banshee masks force a Ld test on the enemy (maybe at -2) if failed the unit cannot overwatch. (in addition to the current -5I)
Not too much when they are S3 T3 4+.
1) Is semantic
2) Would work as well.


They are not going t do option B. Daemon players complained about option B and we got I can't be lowered to one. They just made it not go lower to nerf damonettes from doing the same exact thing. I doubt gw will change it. I wouldn't mind cause damonettes would be much better, and I would stay taking the Masque for sure if that happens.
I doubt they will do any of it, that is beside the point. But comparing an eldar Elite option to a considerably cheaper daemon Troop option is foolish.

[Denzark]

it's a conspiracy of inept people! Run for your lives!!!

aaaaaaaiiiiiiieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!

[cebalrai]

I'm running 10x banshees w/exarch and Jain Zar in a 1500 tonight against a Space Marine player. I'll let everyone know how it goes. :)

[Cap'nSmurfs]

You say "conspiracy" or "ineptitude", I say "conscious design decision you don't agree with".

Which isn't to say you're wrong to disagree with it, but that I think this is a decision they made with eyes wide open.

[Cpt Codpiece]

I always preferred scorpions anyway :) so im not bothered LOL

[rle68]

much of the same thing was said about DE wyches when they took away wych weapons and blasters and made them virtually unplayable... they are a shadow of their former selves and i would never play them again

[eldargal]

much of the same thing was said about DE wyches when they took away wych weapons and blasters and made them virtually unplayable... they are a shadow of their former selves and i would never play them again
A few people said that, and they were stupid. Wyches got a 4++ save in combat to compensate, amongst other things like haywire grenades, cheap open topped transports, pain tokens etc. Banshees got nothing. There is nothing that is better in the new book than in the old book and their wargear is worse (nerfed mask, no grenades). So the two are not comparable at all.

[rle68]

A few people said that, and they were stupid. Wyches got a 4++ save in combat to compensate, amongst other things like haywire grenades, cheap open topped transports, pain tokens etc. Banshees got nothing. There is nothing that is better in the new book than in the old book and their wargear is worse (nerfed mask, no grenades). So the two are not comparable at all.

wyches always got a 4+ save in cc they always had a way to assault out of an opened topped transport.. what they lost was the ability bring down a vehicle with blasters or a very high T unit and with the loss of wych weapons they are usueless in cc... wyches got nothing in their new book to make them good at what they used to be the BEST at...they USED to hit on 3's and wound on 4+ or higher depending on T ..wych weapons made the enemy unit have to hit on higher numbers due to WS being cut in half

in fact all the banshees lost was going at i10 all day every day .. not the same thing

really i would have expected you to know that better than most guess not hmm?

[Fueldrop]

wyches always got a 4+ save in cc they always had a way to assault out of an opened topped transport.. what they lost was the ability bring down a vehicle with blasters or a very high T unit and with the loss of wych weapons they are usueless in cc... wyches got nothing in their new book to make them good at what they used to be the BEST at...they USED to hit on 3's and wound on 4+ or higher depending on T ..wych weapons made the enemy unit have to hit on higher numbers due to WS being cut in half

in fact all the banshees lost was going at i10 all day every day .. not the same thing

really i would have expected you to know that better than most guess not hmm?

The main thing that banshees lost and people are complaining about is the ability to effectively assault into cover. Banshees have always been fragile units dependent on getting the first strike to be combat effective. Having that reduced makes them less effective in the role they're specialized in, and a specialist who's not good at their specialization is not a good thing when your army is built entirely around specialists working together.

Weak links fail first and all that.

[chicop76]

Not too much when they are S3 T3 4+.
1) Is semantic
2) Would work as well.


I doubt they will do any of it, that is beside the point. But comparing an eldar Elite option to a considerably cheaper daemon Troop option is foolish.


Is it?

Normally I wouldn't compare them at all. Step back to last editons Damonettes and Banshees had nothing in common. When Damone's cam around the corner and went poof. Whe wined hard on the slaanech units. They did them like tyranids. I remeber nids had all grenades or you can easily buy grenades for them, but whamo Tyranids lost grenades army wide except for two models.

The only reason I am comparing the two if you look a Banshees it' like they did this. What can we do to make them in like with 6th. As one guy reading a daemon book goes. Hey let's give Banhees similar powers and abilities like the Daemonettes.

The point is this is what Damonettes got for 6.

1. A power to -5 Inititiave
2. +3 run and calvery get +6 run
3. Not assault grenades the allow your high initiative to strike first in cover

Does those 3 rules sound familiar. Daemonettes never had that and now they have it for 6th.

Than the Daemon players complained and wondered if Initiative is reduced to 0 or to 1. If reduced to 0 they could strike first. If one they would be going at the same time as any model in terrain that is 6 or lower.

Than that FAQ you are talking about came out. Was a sad day for Damon kind. It kinda make why even bother with the Masque or Daemonettes. However with all those nerfs a price reduction from what the banshee cost now to what Tau cost now was actualy helpful plus the WS 5 increase and if you buff them it makes up for their short comings. It's almost like you have to buff daemonettes if they asault in terrain.

Now fast foward to Eldar codex and Banshees. Does 1-3 look familiar. If not it looked like they compied the abilites and short fals of daemonettes they added in 6th and gave them to the banshees. Besides turning them into troops, reducing cost a lot, and give them rending weapons they have a lot in common. You would think the Banshee's are almost cut and paste from 6th Daemonettes with some edititing.

Geting back to what everyone is complaining about. Yes it was done on purpose. If they intentionally striped grenades from all of slaanech and go as far as to give banshees 6th edition Daemonette abilities they just wrote like 3 months prior to the Eldar codex. I can see if no similarities was found and the are differant units, but slaanech is daemon elves in away, why you think you have hatred toward them.

My point is if the grenade nerf Damonettes and give them wakky powers to cope with it, and come around to Banshees and do the exact same thing buy taking grenades and give the banshees the same wakky powers to cope with it. I think it's on purpose.

GW knows the Damonette reaction, what's worse that FAQ shows they know what the problem is with Daemonettes. They got a ton of Daemonette playes complaing about the same thing as Banshee playes. Yet they green light the cut and paste and told Banshee players have fun and have a nice day.

When I compare. I am comparing how GW did the same thing months ago and could have use the Banshees to change their pstion, but they made them the same way. Which means a further screw you for Daemonettes.

We got 2 FAQs and Daemoettes are the same, and so is the Exaulted Flamer :( ( so awesome just have to change heavy to assault). Anyway my solution is to get over yourselves since it's obviously on purpose. Be happy they didn't do army wide assault grenade nerf like Tyranids and Daemons received.

All I can say if you like them figure out how to make them work, or simply don't play them. I notice a drop in slaanech due to 6th, I been buying more.

[eldargal]

wyches always got a 4+ save in cc they always had a way to assault out of an opened topped transport.. what they lost was the ability bring down a vehicle with blasters or a very high T unit and with the loss of wych weapons they are usueless in cc... wyches got nothing in their new book to make them good at what they used to be the BEST at...they USED to hit on 3's and wound on 4+ or higher depending on T ..wych weapons made the enemy unit have to hit on higher numbers due to WS being cut in half

in fact all the banshees lost was going at i10 all day every day .. not the same thing

really i would have expected you to know that better than most guess not hmm?
You're right, they did have dodge I forget. They changed roles from damage to tarpit and in 6th they are brilliant at anti-tank, ten haywire grenade CC attacks a turn pretty much obliterates anything. They also gained free assault grenades, cheaper haywire grenades, pain tokens and the new wych weapons which let the mtarpit superbly or put obscene amounts of attacks on a unit (hydra gauntlets). They are not worse than before, they just have a different role.

Banshees on the other hand, are worse than before. They have the old book problems (fragile, problematic delivery, reliant on psychic powers) but with a whole new set of weaknesses (unreliable psychic powers, Overwatch, no grenades). Banshees were nerfed, Wyches changed roles. Banshees aren't worth taking compared to other melee elites and are a relatively expensive Elite choice, Wyches are cheap Troops that can still tarpit and destroy vehicles with ease.

The comparison is just stupid.

chicop, shut up about bloody daemonettes ok? If Banshees were cheap troops with 5++ saves I wouldn't be complaining. Storm Guardians got assault grenades for gods sake and they are troops like daemonettes.

[Mr.Pickelz]

I think the Overwatch Morale test would be a cool addition but i'd like to see that on the exarch. Also, as I read the Banshee mask entry on page 66, it seems like if you were to toss two squads of banshees into a unit the opposing unit will only suffer -5 I. If that were changed so it's per banshee unit charging, then high I characters would be reduced down to 1 as well. Now have a way for an Autarch to get Acrobatic and that could also solve the grenade problem, and give another character to help keep the AP2 H.B.-Exarch alive.

[Caitsidhe]

I don't think it is a conspiracy. That requires a secret and operations by powers unknown. Publishing a books with the changes in rules is hardly a secret and we know who did it. :) Do I think they did it on purpose. Yes. Do I think the reasons are obvious? Yes. Do I think they will change it back? No.

[chicop76]

I don't think it is a conspiracy. That requires a secret and operations by powers unknown. Publishing a books with the changes in rules is hardly a secret and we know who did it. :) Do I think they did it on purpose. Yes. Do I think the reasons are obvious? Yes. Do I think they will change it back? No.



Look at what they did to Daemonettes. Notice the cut and paste with some changes and poof no grenades for Banshees. If they grenade nerf all of Slaanesh from daemons, be happy the didn't grenade nerf all of eldar.

Your troop have grenades, but the can't lower I to -5 can they. That means if you assaulta high I model like the Thirster and assault with the avatar. The avatar would strike first now and the banshees at the same time as the bloodthirster.

Your Banshees are always giving out -5 on the charge that means anything I 6 or higher is going at I 1 and banshees in terrain is going on 1. What you failing to see is all your grenade guys are almost going first.

Here is an example:

Grey Knight Paladins in terrain with halbreds.
Banshee x unit charges Grey Knight paladins and banshees strike same time at I1
Harliquins assault as well. This means no over watch at them. Also you would had gone at the same time as Paladins. Due to the banshees assault you are now going first instead of going at the same time.

Daemonettes due the samething only differance our power stops overwatch.

[eldargal]

Except instead of spending 75-150+ on Banshees to do that you could spend 80+ on an Autarch with mask and get a 4++ and various other perks. There is nothing Banshees can do which another unit can't do better. Hell if you didn't want an Autarch but had points to spare take Jain Zar, she would drop the Thirsters WS by 5 too and puts out respectable damage.
If Banshees were just like daemonettes I wouldn't be complaining, as I've said.

[Sly]

So ... as a non-eldar player, help me understand here. Is the thought, in fact, that no material assault ever happens except through Difficult Terrain?

Eldar, non-Eldar, the truth is this: Any assault unit that is not exceptional at assaulting Vehicles (such as TH Termies, Wyches with Haywire, Meganobz, etc), is intended to assault infantry. If it is intended to assault infantry, and it has problems assaulting into cover, then its main purpose is to assault infantry units out in the open.

But... if the enemy unit is out in the open, you SHOOT IT. The only units that you have problems shooting off objectives are those that are in area cover, or behind an Aegis line, because with GTG, they are usually too hard to remove with shooting (since we assume that they're usually cheap and plentiful, and removing 10+ models when they're GTG for a 3+ or 2+ save is really difficult).

So, the answer to units in cover is attacks that Ignore Cover, or assaulting into the cover. Not every codex has good options for Ignore Cover shooting, which is where assault units come in. Their job is to go into positions held by the enemy, when the enemy is in cover so shooting them out is difficult, and clear the objective. An assault unit that cannot do this is a unit that has no offensive purpose. It may have a defensive purpose (counter-attack), but in that case, it should be tougher than Banshees so the enemy doesn't just shoot it to pieces before his assault units hit your shooty units.

When I look at Banshees, I say that they are not useful as counter-attack, because they are too fragile to last. They can't GTG to get better saves, because if they do, they're unable to counter-assault. They're not useful at clearing units from objectives, since frankly, you're better off with Storm Guardians with double Flamers in most cases, or if you have a Spiritseer, with D-Scythe Wraithguard, or just more Wave Serpents with their Ignore Cover field attack. They ARE useful at hitting infantry that is out in the open, but are they better at doing that, than hitting the unit with Fire Prisms or War Walkers shooting, etc? In almost all cases where a unit is in the open, shooting it works better than assaulting it, unless the Codex is lacking in anti-infantry shooting... and that's not the case for any recent Codex except maybe Daemons. So I'm back to the "Banshees need to be able to assault into cover to be useful", and they are not efficient at assaulting into cover.

That's the case with all assault units, BTW... sure, most can assault units in the open, but a balanced list can just shoot. The only lists where you actually care that the assault unit is good at killing units in the open is a list that is almost all assault, so it doesn't really have the anti-infantry firepower to kill the unit out in the open. Any Eldar list built like that is inherently bad, given that they have assault units only in their Elite and HQ slots. So while I can see units like Khorne Dogs being useful in a Daemons army that is all charging forward, that's not a list that Eldar can run.

[eldargal]

Right, if power armour is out in the open a squad of Dark Reapers will make more of a mess of them without exposing itself to Overwatch and assault casualties. Banshees have no role to fulfill in the new army. They aren't a glass cannon, they are a glass spoon.

[rle68]

You're right, they did have dodge I forget. They changed roles from damage to tarpit and in 6th they are brilliant at anti-tank, ten haywire grenade CC attacks a turn pretty much obliterates anything. They also gained free assault grenades, cheaper haywire grenades, pain tokens and the new wych weapons which let the mtarpit superbly or put obscene amounts of attacks on a unit (hydra gauntlets). They are not worse than before, they just have a different role.

Banshees on the other hand, are worse than before. They have the old book problems (fragile, problematic delivery, reliant on psychic powers) but with a whole new set of weaknesses (unreliable psychic powers, Overwatch, no grenades). Banshees were nerfed, Wyches changed roles. Banshees aren't worth taking compared to other melee elites and are a relatively expensive Elite choice, Wyches are cheap Troops that can still tarpit and destroy vehicles with ease.

The comparison is just stupid.

chicop, shut up about bloody daemonettes ok? If Banshees were cheap troops with 5++ saves I wouldn't be complaining. Storm Guardians got assault grenades for gods sake and they are troops like daemonettes.

wych weapons now are basically useless they only affect 2 models in the squad and the only affect whatever model they are in base to base with .. a pale shadow of what they used to have

i will grant you haywire for the squad gives them tank killing ability but they are useless against tyrants and the like thus the blasters are a sore loss indeed

and my DE codex is awol at the moment so i do believe the haywires are an upgrade and making the points cost for a 6+ base save garbage

wow you complain about banshees and overwatch yet EVERYONE has that same issue whats your armor save ? oh yeah its better then my 6+

ill give you banshees are not as good as they were but im sorry you can not compare what you lost to wyches.. that dog wont hunt

"""They are not worse than before, they just have a different role."""" i could say look in the mirror and say that

[Kirsten]

I disagree with a lot of this, I would say in the majority of games I see and play most assaults do not involve cover of any kind. I have not read the rules yet personally but my regular eldar opponent informs me that the enemy unit being charge gets -5I for that round, so if you charge in multiple eldar units, everyone benefits from the banshee initiative hex. sure power swords are less effective than they used to be now they are AP3, but you will never play against that many 2+ saves.

[Mr.Pickelz]

Banshees surfing a Wave Serpent would be cool to see... like the wyches and warriors riding the Raiders. That way the Assault option for Banshees would be unique in the codex and a cool modeling opportunity. Screaming Serpent Transports....

[rle68]

where do you play?
im my hood its all gay knights and other things that are 2+ saves min maxxing in my hood is the rage

and if your opps are letting troops sit in the open well that says alot

[eldargal]

Why does everyone insist on comparing cheap ******* TROOPS to 50% or more more expensive ELITES? **** this is getting tedious.

Wych weapons arent a pale shadow they are weapons which support a different role for the unit. Get over it already. You have splinter fire to deal with tyrants, if you haven't grasped that concept about Dark Eldar then you are just sad. I mean if you are going to sit there and tell me Dark Eldar are worse off because wyches can't deal with Tyrants then I'm going to sit here and call you a bad player. Because that is just sad. Blasters are not a sore loss, if you need to kill a tyrant shoot it with splinter fire and watch it die.

Haywire grenades are half as expensive in the new edition as they used to be and they are much, much more effective.

I complain about Overwatch for my Banshees because they take an elite slot, are comparatively expensive and have a mediocre save. Rest assured if I could take 60 Banshees in open topped vehicles with a 4++ save in combat in one FOC chart I would not be complaining.

I wasn't comparing them to Wyches, you did that. I don't think comparing an expensive elite unit to a cheap troop unit in another codex is particularly helpful but U'd be THRILLED if Banshees were more like Wyches.


I disagree with a lot of this, I would say in the majority of games I see and play most assaults do not involve cover of any kind. I have not read the rules yet personally but my regular eldar opponent informs me that the enemy unit being charge gets -5I for that round, so if you charge in multiple eldar units, everyone benefits from the banshee initiative hex. sure power swords are less effective than they used to be now they are AP3, but you will never play against that many 2+ saves.
True but you can get the same debuff effect plus a bunch of other usefull abilities from Jain Zar (expensive) or an Autarch (cheaper).:(

[Kirsten]

where do you play?
im my hood its all gay knights and other things that are 2+ saves min maxxing in my hood is the rage

and if your opps are letting troops sit in the open well that says alot

first of all an all 2+ save army is incredibly small, you have no end of cheap AP2 weapons for eldar now, and bladestorm on every shuriken weapon means terminators are a none issue. Even if you have 50% of the board covered in terrain that still means 50% of it is not. units have to move about the board, grab objectives which cannot be placed in buildings/fortifications etc. I don't know what you are playing if you just deploy every unit in a piece of area terrain and nobody moves. some form of battleships presumably.

[eldargal]

In my experience assaults tend to be in terrain because we put objectives in terrain and the assault units are send in to clear them off. It's still a case of paying a premium for an elite unit that can't be sure of being any use at all. Eldar can't afford to leave too much to luck and hoping for the opportunity to assault a unit out of cover doesn't sit right. I could just take another unit who have a better chance of getting the job done, like Scorpions.

[rle68]

Why does everyone insist on comparing cheap ******* TROOPS to 50% or more more expensive ELITES? **** this is getting tedious.

Wych weapons arent a pale shadow they are weapons which support a different role for the unit. Get over it already. You have splinter fire to deal with tyrants, if you haven't grasped that concept about Dark Eldar then you are just sad. I mean if you are going to sit there and tell me Dark Eldar are worse off because wyches can't deal with Tyrants then I'm going to sit here and call you a bad player. Because that is just sad. Blasters are not a sore loss, if you need to kill a tyrant shoot it with splinter fire and watch it die.

Haywire grenades are half as expensive in the new edition as they used to be and they are much, much more effective.

I complain about Overwatch for my Banshees because they take an elite slot, are comparatively expensive and have a mediocre save. Rest assured if I could take 60 Banshees in open topped vehicles with a 4++ save in combat in one FOC chart I would not be complaining.

I wasn't comparing them to Wyches, you did that. I don't think comparing an expensive elite unit to a cheap troop unit in another codex is particularly helpful but U'd be THRILLED if Banshees were more like Wyches.


True but you can get the same debuff effect plus a bunch of other usefull abilities from Jain Zar (expensive) or an Autarch (cheaper).:(

your borderline hypocrisy is starting to become more apparent...

your insistence that wych weapons are somehow beneficial that they support a new use for them is in direct contrast to your harping about your lack of grenades

good god do not even tell me that splinter weapons are the key for wyches now... wyches were never a shooty unit they were a cc unit that HAD the ability to do some damage BEFORE they assaulted now .. not so much

and im gonna end your little pitty party quite quick

you lost one thing.. you dont get to go at I 10 im gonna cry you a river now.. your opp gets a -5 to his Init and you dont have grenades boo hoo
ws 4 ap3 cc weapons yeah keep crying

dont forget that wyches used to be elites as well unless you did wych cults which i did along with almost everyone else..so freakin what your banshees are still elites ...

and i guess your blind devotion to them didnt let you see that i said the blasters helped damage so high T monsters before cc not kill it tyvm

and you mention pain tokens...unless i kill a vehicle unit before i do anything else just how exactly do you expect me to gain a pain token since i cant kill anything in close combat except maybe tau ig maybe.. and what good are pain tokens whe the next round you get shot to death by anything fire

sorry your barking up the wrong tree with a dog that just wont hunt

[eldargal]

Let me try and address what I think you're saying:

Wych weapons are beneficial, they can boost your number of attacks significantly or reduce incoming CC attackswhen you already have a 4++ to protect against them. Good for tarpitting ot dealing with lots of non-assault troops. This has nothing to do with Banshees losing grenades.

Splinter fire is how you deal with monstrous creatures. IT doesn't have to come from Wyches, if you are using wyches to take on MCs you are doing it wrong. Tyranids are no threat to a decent Dark Eldar army.

No, Banshees lost assault grenades, I10, ignoring defensive terrain and reliable access to Doom and Fortune which were necessities to using them effectively in 4th and 5th edition. As for WS4, all eldar have that now and AP3 is really rather meaningless, it is the number of wounds inflicted that counts and Scorpions do the same job without being so fragile.

What pity? I'm disappointed and annoyed about Banshees, pity doesn't come into it.

Yes, and if Banshees were now cheap troops I WOULDN'T BE ******** COMPLAINING.

Now you use cheap splinter fire, oh noes!

Give them a haemonculus. You really have no idea how Dark Eldar work, do you?

And you're an +++CENSORED BY THE INQUISITION+++ with no idea what he is talking about with a fondness for archaic and inappropriate metaphors.


Bottom line: Even if Wyches were nerfed, which they were not, it doesn't change a single sodding thing about Banshees being nerfed and I for one would love it Banshees had what wyches have.

[chicop76]

Let me try and address what I think you're saying:

Wych weapons are beneficial, they can boost your number of attacks significantly or reduce incoming CC attackswhen you already have a 4++ to protect against them. Good for tarpitting ot dealing with lots of non-assault troops. This has nothing to do with Banshees losing grenades.

Splinter fire is how you deal with monstrous creatures. IT doesn't have to come from Wyches, if you are using wyches to take on MCs you are doing it wrong. Tyranids are no threat to a decent Dark Eldar army.

No, Banshees lost assault grenades, I10, ignoring defensive terrain and reliable access to Doom and Fortune which were necessities to using them effectively in 4th and 5th edition. As for WS4, all eldar have that now and AP3 is really rather meaningless, it is the number of wounds inflicted that counts and Scorpions do the same job without being so fragile.

What pity, you moron? I'm disappointed and annoyed about Banshees, pity doesn't come into it.

Yes, and if Banshees were now cheap troops I WOULDN'T BE ******** COMPLAINING.

Now you use cheap splinter fire, oh noes!

Give them a haemonculus. You really have no idea how Dark Eldar work, do you?

And you're an idiot with no idea what he is talking about with a fondness for archaic and inappropriate metaphors.


Bottom line: Even if Wyches were nerfed, which they were not, it doesn't change a single sodding thing about Banshees being nerfed and I for one would love it Banshees had what wyches have.


I was going to say give them a haemon as well. Although Haemon's don't have fleet and can prevent you from assaulting on a bad assalt roll due to no re rolling. You also have pain engines, but who runs those.

I seen dark eldar keep the haemon in the transport or assault with the wytch. Was much better in 5th, butit does help.

Aren't Wytches Elites called Bloodbrides.

I guess a good comparison is to compare Banshees to fiends. Fiends have no grenades, hounds have no grenades. For the most part I have to sit and take it and hope my poor +5 save, saves my butt.

[eldargal]

Yup Hekatrix Bloodbrides, who with three sets of hydra gauntlets flood anything under 60+ attacks on the charge and ignore half the wounds they receive in return.:) Such a fun unit.

Attach a gaemonculus, shft the pain token to the Wyches, drop the haemonculus. Wyches still fleet and now they have a lovely pain token without needing to kil anyone. Dark Eldar Tactica 101.

[rle68]

Let me try and address what I think you're saying:

Wych weapons are beneficial, they can boost your number of attacks significantly or reduce incoming CC attackswhen you already have a 4++ to protect against them. Good for tarpitting ot dealing with lots of non-assault troops. This has nothing to do with Banshees losing grenades.

Splinter fire is how you deal with monstrous creatures. IT doesn't have to come from Wyches, if you are using wyches to take on MCs you are doing it wrong. Tyranids are no threat to a decent Dark Eldar army.

No, Banshees lost assault grenades, I10, ignoring defensive terrain and reliable access to Doom and Fortune which were necessities to using them effectively in 4th and 5th edition. As for WS4, all eldar have that now and AP3 is really rather meaningless, it is the number of wounds inflicted that counts and Scorpions do the same job without being so fragile.

What pity? I'm disappointed and annoyed about Banshees, pity doesn't come into it.

Yes, and if Banshees were now cheap troops I WOULDN'T BE ******** COMPLAINING.

Now you use cheap splinter fire, oh noes!

Give them a haemonculus. You really have no idea how Dark Eldar work, do you?

And you're an idiot with no idea what he is talking about with a fondness for archaic and inappropriate metaphors.


Bottom line: Even if Wyches were nerfed, which they were not, it doesn't change a single sodding thing about Banshees being nerfed and I for one would love it Banshees had what wyches have.
?
do you hear yourself? give them this give them that.. and exactly how many more points am i supposed to add to make them as they were alone

and i have played dark eldar a lot longer than you have and probably eldar as well so get off your high horse and face the fact you dont have the slightest clue as to what your talking about

kabalite trueborn are the shooty unit EVERYONE knows that

WYCHES WERE THE BEST CC UNIT IN THE GAME BAR NONE.. no point in trying to argue as youd be wrong.. ill take an old dex wych unit against anything you can name in the game except dreads.. and with my combat drug always goes first i win you lose game over nuff said so sad keep trying

Wych weapons are beneficial, they can boost your number of attacks significantly ..

i wonder exactly what you call significantly since they only boost the 2 models allowed to carry them or dont you bother to read the codex?

now we get right down to the crux of your crying.. " we dont have reliable fortune and doom blah blah blah.. oh my ill have to nerd quit now good lord.. if they couldnt wipe out reg units without it then they werent that good before.. ans since you want to start name calling ill stop responding and tell you to go read the forum rules

[rle68]

Yup Hekatrix Bloodbrides, who with three sets of hydra gauntlets flood anything under 60+ attacks on the charge and ignore half the wounds they receive in return.:) Such a fun unit.

Attach a gaemonculus, shft the pain token to the Wyches, drop the haemonculus. Wyches still fleet and now they have a lovely pain token without needing to kil anyone. Dark Eldar Tactica 101.

yup sure add more points and more points and more points.. you havent the slightest idea
you use a haemonc i wont i have other uses for my points for somethings that actually kill stuff and i dont rely on gimmicks to help me win

[chicop76]

The old wytches were awesome, but so was the old genestealers. I think haqliquins and last codex daemons daemonettes was strong.

It was funny to see Haliquins with fortune and doom with eldrad vs daemonettes backed by the fateweavers re rollabe invulnerable saves. They was on even terms, daemonettes had the advatage on the charge, but Harliquins had the srength andI adavtage on the charge. I say those two units are the best hand to hand. Heck to be honest the seekers or fiends of slaanesh was the best.

If I was to compare now.

Seekers
Harliquins
Genestealers
Bloodbrides.

If you factor in endurance on genestealers it's an interesting battle.

The +5 invulnerable saves with lots of attacks and the possible buff combos win out. Seekers used to have 5 attacks a piece on the charge an I 6.

The old wytches still had problems with fiends, seekers, and harliquins when those units was re rolling invulnerable saves.

[daboarder]

WYCHES WERE THE BEST CC UNIT IN THE GAME BAR NONE.. no point in trying to argue as youd be wrong.. ill take an old dex wych unit against anything you can name in the game except dreads.. and with my combat drug always goes first i win you lose game over nuff said so sad keep trying


And this my friends is what we call rose tinted glasses, Wyches were the oldest CC unit in the game for a long time, but they were far from the best, I can think of a handful of units that have come and gone in the time the DE wen't un-cared for that were better, for example.

Death company, both the old school third ed kind (which had the fnp when it was similar to the grotesque rule) or the PDF version which just gave them all rending. even the modern version only suffers in the points department not survivability or destruction potential.

From other lists we take Genestealers, back when they had grenades......or when they had power weapons....or the first instance of rending.

Oh and please learn how to communicate in proper English.

[Fueldrop]

There's something else that's bothering me that no-one seems to have brought up yet: -5 initiative doesn't really make that big a difference.
Look at it clinically for a moment. remember, Banshees have base 5 initiative.
Space marines (all varients): 4 initiative almost across the board, HQs excepted.
Orks: 2 initiative pretty much across the board.
Guard: 3 initiative, ditto.
Sisters of battle: ditto.
Grey Knights: Some wargear gives a boost, otherwise 4.
Daemons: Slaanesh are at 6, most others 4 or below.
Necrons: Initiative 2 across the board.
Tau: mainly 3's, though there are a couple of 5's in there.
Tyranids: their assault units tend to have very high initiative, but the fact is that assaulting genestealers is widely considered to be a very bad move.
Dark Eldar/craftworld eldar: yeah, it really comes into its own here.
In other words, against several armies the Banshees' signature debuff is worthless as every unit in the eldar codex strikes first anyway. for the others...
Grey knights: You're looking at terminator armour, meaning that throwing banshees at them is unlikely to work well without a warlock to debuff them first.
Slaanesh: invulnerable saves make your power weapons obsolete. might be worth it to tag-team with either striking scorpions (High strength) or storm guardians (sheer numbers), but for the former they've already got an initiative 10 opener and the latter are likely to have a warlock with a good power to boost them.
Tau: that high initiative stuff is generally pretty frail. those mandiblaster attacks from scorpions will thin them out nicely.
Tyranids: Tyranids have the numbers to weather your initial impact and hit right back even if you steal their initiative.
Eldar (all varieties): This is where Banshees niche is. Low toughness, high initiative targets that in many cases can't even overwatch effectively.

So their signature debuff is pretty worthless most of the time, with several armies being completely unaffected by it. Where it shines is killing elites from their own army and their dark brethren, a very narrow niche indeed.

Banshees role in the eldar arsenal has always been killing Elite foes. The hit to their power weapons hurt them in that regard, but bladestorm is what killed them as heavy infantry killers. In this edition they are most effective against foes like incubi and striking scorpions, but both of those units are known to favor hugging cover, which renders Banshees far less effective.

In the end the problem is that a troops choice 6 points per model cheaper can do the same job well enough, with storm guardians having additional advantages in the form of special weapons, squad size and warlocks (not to mention grenades, and the fact that they're scoring units) that relegate Banshees to the flavorful 'meh' zone previously occupied by swooping hawks.

[Power Klawz]

To be fair, banshees aren't that expensive. 15 points a pop is a pretty good deal for power weapons. The only analogue I can think of is burna boyz, and they don't even get a 4+ let alone anything as amazing as an exarch. They're slower too, and they can't shoot if they want to use power weapons that turn (not that shuriken pistols are going to be amazing or anything.)

They do have massed template weapons of course which is a whole other ballgame, but still I can't think of cheaper power weapon spam than 15 points a pop.

Ok bloodletters. But they're easier to kill than banshees and they also do not have grenades. They also have less attacks. They're slower but much stronger (especially on the charge.) Still a 5 point discount for a 5++ instead of a 4+, one less attack and lower initiative is probably way worth it.

Seems like banshees are not designed to go solo into cover. Need to play around with them some to see if there's a real use for them.

[Fueldrop]

To be fair, banshees aren't that expensive. 15 points a pop is a pretty good deal for power weapons. The only analogue I can think of is burna boyz, and they don't even get a 4+ let alone anything as amazing as an exarch. They're slower too, and they can't shoot if they want to use power weapons that turn (not that shuriken pistols are going to be amazing or anything.)

They do have massed template weapons of course which is a whole other ballgame, but still I can't think of cheaper power weapon spam than 15 points a pop.
Ok bloodletters. But they're easier to kill than banshees and they also do not have grenades. They also have less attacks. They're slower but much stronger (especially on the charge.) Still a 5 point discount for a 5++ instead of a 4+, one less attack and lower initiative is probably way worth it.


While you make a good point, the fact is that burna boys are fantastic at flushing units out of cover, complements of the fact that they can throw down mass templates. The fact that they have power weapons in an assault has always seemed like a secondary factor to me, but the fact is that they are a staggeringly flexible unit: flamethrowers for crowd control, power weapons for cutting open heavy infantry. Heck, they can even choose whether to overwatch against hordes or go power against the tough stuff.

Bloodletters... are interesting. they cost 2/3rds of the price, come with an invulnerable save, can hold objectives, deep strike, have higher strength and a higher weapon skill than banshees, but lack the extra pips in both attack and initiative. That said, if I had to choose one or the other for taking down space marines (The most common foe power weapons are going to come up against) I would choose bloodletters every time. Their 1 attack is more likely to hit and more likely to wound than the banshee's, and on the charge (which is where both units are supposed to excel) the bloodletters beat the banshees hands down.

EDIT: Thought: Banshees with furious charge would be very good. Their initiative goes up to 2 when assaulting into cover and their strength goes up for the initial hit, making them a high-impact glass cannon in assaults. Thoughts?

[DarkLink]

Look at the big picture, though. At 15pts each, Banshees suck, which means that, no, that's not a good deal for a power weapon.

You have to look at what a unit can actually acomplish on the table. Don't get distracted by "ooh, but they have power weapons, they must be good". If they can't reach combat without getting shot to pieces first, they could be Str 10 AP2 with 10 attacks each for all your opponent cares. Either way, he's going to kill them before that ever matters. Though if you went that extreme, Banshee hordes would be pretty useful. But just as a Str 3 power weapon? Utterly irrelevant that power weapons are 15pts on a SM Sergeant. Even if it sounds like a good deal on paper, it's not on the tabletop.

Terminators have the same problem. You stack on so much wargear, until you realize that you pay so much for all of it you could get more firepower, mobility, and durability out of just tactical Marines. Only THSS Terminators and GK Paladins really overcome that, the former for their choppiness that trumps most other choppy thing's choppiness, and the latter for their ability to shrug off a stupid amount of firepower and the shooting and assault to back it up. But a regular Terminator? He's probably going to get some plasma to the face before he gets to do much other than pew-pew with his little storm bolter.


I disagree with a lot of this, I would say in the majority of games I see and play most assaults do not involve cover of any kind.

In my experience you're reasonably right about this. However, in my experience, assault units pretty much always get shot before getting into assault by something, unless you have an assault vehicle to deliver them into combat or something similar. Banshees are too fragile, too scary, and too slow.

[rle68]

And this my friends is what we call rose tinted glasses, Wyches were the oldest CC unit in the game for a long time, but they were far from the best, I can think of a handful of units that have come and gone in the time the DE wen't un-cared for that were better, for example.

Death company, both the old school third ed kind (which had the fnp when it was similar to the grotesque rule) or the PDF version which just gave them all rending. even the modern version only suffers in the points department not survivability or destruction potential.

From other lists we take Genestealers, back when they had grenades......or when they had power weapons....or the first instance of rending.

Oh and please learn how to communicate in proper English.

really Death co vs Wyches?... wow have you played long? lets see... i go first no matter with combat drug.. your ws is 2 you hit only on 5's i hit on 3's i have a 4+ invo to your rending and you think they win over wyches? let me make sure i dont go to any school you attended

and if you dont like how i type then dont read or respond to it feel free to to do that :)

[daboarder]

really Death co vs Wyches?... wow have you played long? lets see... i go first no matter with combat drug.. your ws is 2 you hit only on 5's i hit on 3's i have a 4+ invo to your rending and you think they win over wyches? let me make sure i dont go to any school you attended

and if you dont like how i type then dont read or respond to it feel free to to do that :)

Haven't played long yourself have you...or been reading long either.

I was refering to two older versions of DC,

They had 3+ saves, FNP, FC, bucketloads of attacks, and re-rolled to hit on the first round of combat (because who wasn't taking a chaplain) pretty sure they were ws5 too (though that one I can't confirm)...oh and they we're kinda free at one point too.

As to your statement that I not read your writing, why then would you bother attempting to communicate if it is going to be illegible to most people?

[40kGamer]

Right, if power armour is out in the open a squad of Dark Reapers will make more of a mess of them without exposing itself to Overwatch and assault casualties. Banshees have no role to fulfill in the new army. They aren't a glass cannon, they are a glass spoon.

This made me smile... :) The problem I have with Banshees is in an army of specialists they are at best mediocre at their job... RIP Banshees... better luck in 7th! :(

[calamitycal]

There's something else that's bothering me that no-one seems to have brought up yet: -5 initiative doesn't really make that big a difference.

This.

The Banshee mask is near worthless. In 95% of attacks the Banshees would have attacked first anyway (not counting cover) so what's the point of the mask? Your paying points for wargear (it's baked into the base cost of Banshees) that will almost never do anything. It's like paying points to allow a model with WS9 to always hit on a 3+. It would almost never be useful.

It's why, sadly, I don't think the lack of grenades was a mistake or an oversight. The point of the mask is to allow Banshees to (most of the time) attack simultaneously when charging into cover. I'll be surprised if it is changed. That's the design, crappy as it may be.

[calamitycal]

Right, if power armour is out in the open a squad of Dark Reapers will make more of a mess of them without exposing itself to Overwatch and assault casualties. Banshees have no role to fulfill in the new army. They aren't a glass cannon, they are a glass spoon.

Bingo. Even the "they are a counter-assault unit" argument is weak as there are other units that could perform this and *also* be useful in other roles.

[rle68]

Haven't played long yourself have you...or been reading long either.

I was refering to two older versions of DC,

They had 3+ saves, FNP, FC, bucketloads of attacks, and re-rolled to hit on the first round of combat (because who wasn't taking a chaplain) pretty sure they were ws5 too (though that one I can't confirm)...oh and they we're kinda free at one point too.

As to your statement that I not read your writing, why then would you bother attempting to communicate if it is going to be illegible to most people?

everything you just mentioned about Death company still doesn't insure its survival against previous dex wyches.. your still weapons skill 2 yes you rounded down in the old dex im still ws5 i thin or maybe was 4 didnt matter im still hitting you on 3's.. i still have a 4+ invo against your rending..

now you want to add a chaplain in?

well ill see your chaplain and raise you an archite and eat your death co and your chaplain for breakfast not only is she going first i might risk it and use 3 combat drugs and re roll my misses in close combat +1 str and i dont know with my punisher that i always equipped her with and my tormentor helm,... oh yea now i know what i used the extra combat drug for an extra attack so im looking at 6 maybe 7 on the charge... along with 10 wyches doing what did you call it ? oh yeah buckeloads of attacks if you are still around you might get in a few shots but ill definitely out wound you... now i cant remember right now if the punisher was a power weapon i do believe it was..its very doubtful any death co would be left alive for you to swing back let alone your chaplain who the wyches would attack

still want to say death co are better?

lets see did i forget anything? oh yeah my 2+ invo for the archite

[daboarder]

everything you just mentioned about Death company still doesn't insure its survival against wyches.. your still weapons skill 2 yes you rounded down in the old dex im still ws5 i thin or maybe was 4 didnt matter im still hitting you on 3's.. i still have a 4+ invo against your rending..

now you want to add a chaplain in?

well ill see your chaplain and raise you an archite and eat your death co and your chaplain for breakfast not only is she going first i might risk it and use 3 combat drugs and re roll my misses in close combat +1 str and i dont know with my punisher that i always equipped her with and my tormentor helm,... oh yea now i know what i used the extra combat drug for an extra attack so im looking at 6 maybe 7 on the charge... along with 10 wyches doing what did you call it ? oh yeah buckeloads of attacks if you are still around you might get in a few shots but ill definitely out wound you

still want to say death co are better?
lets see did i forget anything? oh yeah my 2+ invo

No bloody clue mate, no clue. you don't even know the edition your arguing in. or the contemporaries of wyches at the time.

[rle68]

No bloody clue mate, no clue. you don't even know the edition your arguing in. or the contemporaries of wyches at the time.


maybe you better go back and read... i said form the outset old codex wyches it didnt matter what edition 4th 5th or 6th they still owned in cc

face it you have no idea what youd be facing and you just proved my point

that set vs the new dex they arent even close.. and thus my point to eldargal that she can go cry me a river over banshees from what the wyches lost

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Hmmm, although they seem so-so alone, maybe 6th ed. Banshees could be really amped up by attaching an allied Archon with a Phantasm Grenade Launcher? Of course, that prevents them from hopping in a transport, which is far from ideal.

[rle68]

Hmmm, although they seem so-so alone, maybe 6th ed. Banshees could be really amped up by attaching an allied Archon with a Phantasm Grenade Launcher? Of course, that prevents them from hopping in a transport, which is far from ideal.

interesting idea but yeah on foot .. ugh

[Power Klawz]

Banshees kill like 66% more MEQ than scorpions for like 12% less points. They kill other eldar better than scorps and they kill tau better, but that doesn't really matter. They're better at ap4 and ap3 and they're better against high initiative enemies like the aforementioned genestealers. (They can even do a fair job of kiting genestealers around with their shoot then run +3 inches, almost seems like they were conceived to troll other foot slogging 12 or less shooting ranged units actually.)

Scorps kill everything else better, including TEQ obviously. Harlequins kill everything else MUCH better, but for a much higher cost.

[eldargal]

Actually Minsc on Warseer did the Scorpion vs Banshee maths vs MEQ:

9 Banshee's + Exarch with Executioner:
27 attacks, 13,5 hits, 4,5 wounds.
E: 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1,33 wounds.
5,83 wounds in total.

9 Scorpions + Exarch with Claw:
27 attacks, 13,5 hits, 6,75 wounds, 2,25 after saves.
E: 4 attacks, 2,66 hits, 2,22 wounds.
Mandiblasters*: 10 hits, 3,33 wounds, 1,11 after saves.
5,58 wounds in total.
(*It's hard to do mathhammer with Mandiblasters, because it depends on how many Scorpions get into base-contact with the enemy. When charging it might only be 4-5, but when charged or in ongoing combats, it will probably be everyone.)

When charged:

Banshee's:
18 attacks, 9 hits, 3 wounds.
Exarch: 2 attacks, 1.33 hits, 0,88 wounds.
3,88 wounds in total.

Scorpions:
18 attacks, 9 hits, 4,5 wounds, 1,5 wound after saves.
Exarch: 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1,67 wounds after saves.
Mandiblasters: 10 hits, 3,33 wounds, 1,11 after saves.
4,28 wounds in total.
Not taking into account Overwatch and the lack of grenades. So you're paying slightly less for .25 wounds more with a more fragile unit that will get the stuffing kicked out of them if they charge into cover which is where they are needed most due to the abundance of S6+ AP2 weaponry to be used against stuff out in the open.

[Power Klawz]

Well that's with exarchs which I did not include in my estimations. Power claws at eldar initiative win obviously, but at double the cost of a banshee exarch with executioner. A full squad of 10 scorps with clawed exarch runs 210 points, 10 banshees with executioner exarch is 170. That's a not insignificant discount.

And honestly banshees aren't designed to get things out of cover, they're designed to kill other assault units that are closing in for the kill. That's the whole point of -5 initiative on the charge, they're supposed to intercept other assault units with similarly limited ranged attacks and wipe them out before they can hit back. You could theoretically use them to try and get a tac squad out of cover on an objective, but something with grenades and better armor is better suited for that (ie: scorpions.) If you've got a raider full of incubi coming at you, or death company marching on your lines or some such thing. Hell even warp claws if your opponent for some reason is using them, anything that's aiming to charge into your other units is what banshees are looking to take care of.

Ideal targets for banshees are fast moving, hard hitting high initiative targets. Daemonettes, tyranids and all other eldar and dark eldar assault troops fit this description, as do most slaanesh marines. Against less impressive foes They'll still do quite well, and unless you plan on challenging a lot for some reason you don't really need the exarch, putting you at 150 points even. That's less than a standard tactical squad, less than scorpions who will do less for over 30% more and much less than harlequins. I'm not really understanding the argument stating they don't make great counter assault units. They're quick to redeploy with fleet and extra run distance so they can cover a nice area defensively on foot, they neuter high initiative foes and most importantly they kill things without having to waste high str, high ap shooting on assault units that don't pose much threat unless they're in your face, and they do this for 150 points.

Basically banshees are interceptors for other scary assault troops. Scorpions should be forward deployed and killing things that are hunkered down or slow moving mobs of poorly armored troops. Jump pack assault troops, beasts, nids, and other eldar are the purview of banshees.

Funny enough, they'll kill scorpions all day too.

[eldargal]

Well it's a 20% discount, but you get a significantly more versatile and durable squad for the extra points. You can achieve the same initiative debuff with an Autarch for half the cost and get a 4++ and extra abilities.

They aren't good counter attack units because they don't survive long enough to be viable. Being only T3 4+ they have to be very careful to avoid exposing themselves (hur) to enemy fire which limits their mobility considerably.

[Power Klawz]

A squad of 10 banshees with no exarch is 150 points. A squad of 10 scorpions with clawed exarch is 210 points, that's not 20%.

Why don't they survive long enough? Are they chilling out in the open? A naked autarch with just a banshee mask, ok he gets 4 attacks on the charge with no ap value at str3 for 75 points, lets be nice and give him a power weapon, now we're at 90. 90 points for 5 attacks on the charge with an autarch, or 90 points for 18 attacks on the charge with banshees? Also who are you teaming this autarch up with? Scorpions? Well you just paid for infiltrate for no good reason and you're still going to get your butt kicked by I5 enemies more than banshees would. That's a 300 point unit, a bit much for a counter assault squad wouldn't you say?

Put him in with some harlequins? Ha, now you're talking some serious cheese, and what was wrong with 150 points worth of banshees to begin with?

Want to avoid exposing the banshees to enemy fire, why not a wave serpent? For all those crazy points you're tossing around trying to get an autarch into other assault units why not just throw down 130 or so points on a transport and be impervious to damage? Hell, why not do a walk on from reserves to assist a guardian squad under assault, or stay in cover until fast assault units come barreling your way. I mean if your enemy is hell bent on killing your banshees there's nothing you can do to ensure their safety, just make them pay dearly for removing 150 points worth of eldar.

[eldargal]

I'm including the exarch in the figure because her S4 AP2 attacks are really vital at putting wounds on things.

I'm getting sick of arguing about this to be honest. If you think Banshees on foot work you've never used them, if it was a simple as that people wouldn't be so upset they still don't have an assault vehicle.

Wave Serpent adds an extra 66% to the cost of a basic ten Banshee squad. then to counter assault said unit they need to get out of the vehicle, wait a turn, then assault.

[Power Klawz]

A wave serpent is worth the points as a battle tank alone, the fact that it houses troops is icing on the cake. I wouldn't consider those points as soley going to assist the banshees, there are going to be a lot of dead bodies piled at the foot of that serpent by the game's end.

And I mean assaulting out of a non-assault transport is basically positioning 101. You're looking at a turn 3 assault, never go alone. Turbo boost into position turn one, enjoy your 3+ cover save and 2+ penetration saves. Turn 2 disembark, move transport in to provide 5+ cover to unit, shoot out serpent field and try to pin your target, at worst receive non-rapid fire shooting with cover saves for ap4+ weapons, then charge next turn. If you do it right you lose less than half your squad before you hit home against basically anything that isn't toting 5 plasma guns, and if it is toting 5 plasma guns well nuke it from orbit.

If you're on foot then never leave cover unless you're going for the charge. Don't run across the board waving your arms around screaming "shoot me I've got power weapons!"

I don't know, if you can't think of uses for the unit then fine, it doesn't matter to me, I just get frustrated by everyone toeing the party line like its the gospel truth and not really using any critical thinking skills. You can be all doom and gloom if you want to, but sometime, somewhere banshees are going to kill something and its going to be awesome, no matter how much poo pooing you do on the intarwebs.

[DarkLink]

But if you take a unit to get a Serpent, you might as well take a unit that will actually do something. On foot, you can at least try and hide the Banshees out of LOS and deny the enemy access to an area (even if that's not that great of a plan). In a transport, though? As soon as it blows up or you disembark, who'd going to leave the Banshees untouched? They will have a chance to shoot at them, since you can't assault. Which just means a bunch of dead Banshees. You can't even fly them up and drop them off in terrain to try and give them some extra durability, because then they lose their initiative and they'll get punched in the face in assault by whatever they kill.

If Eldar had an assault vehicle, Banshees would be pretty awesome, even without grenades. With grenades, they'd still be somewhat useable even without the assault transport because you could dump them in cover and use a Spirit Seer or something to give them a decent save and actually force your opponent to work a little to deal with them, kind of like using Scorpions.

Without either grenades or an assault vehicle, though, Banshees rely on your opponent being too incompetent to spare a unit's worth of shooting at them. Too much work to make them work. Pretty much anything you take Banshees for, you could take another unit and do it better.

[Power Klawz]

I remain unconvinced, although the niche is perhaps too prohibitively small to find wide-scale application. Against fast moving, aggressive, high initiative assault units banshees will give you the most bang for your buck. As to whether such considerations are necessary in the current meta I'm not too sure.

I think they're basically a counter to a unit type that nobody cares about anymore. Everyone hates genestealers now because they don't have grenades and get shot to hell, warp talons are too expensive, and nobody has ever liked possessed. Banshees kill things that you probably won't see on the tabletop very often, and as a consequence I don't think you'll see banshees very often either, regardless of any wider application they might have. Sort of like how you saw plasma take over the melta slots in a lot of armies, they'd be better if the things they kill were more predominate.

[DarkLink]

I think you're trying to agree with us without admitting it;).

[eldargal]

What DarkLink said.

I've said it before but I'll say it again; I love Banshees. I defended them all through 5th edition when people said they were rubbish because of low S and a reliance on Farseer support. I defended them when it was cool to call them useless. I took them in every game I played even at 1000pts because I knew how to use them and get my points worth even if they weren't absolutely optimal. But despite trying to my best to find a redeeming feature for them in the new book I can't. Anything they can do another squad can do better, or more cheaply, or both often with greater flexibility or durability.

[chicop76]

What DarkLink said.

I've said it before but I'll say it again; I love Banshees. I defended them all through 5th edition when people said they were rubbish because of low S and a reliance on Farseer support. I defended them when it was cool to call them useless. I took them in every game I played even at 1000pts because I knew how to use them and get my points worth even if they weren't absolutely optimal. But despite trying to my best to find a redeeming feature for them in the new book I can't. Anything they can do another squad can do better, or more cheaply, or both often with greater flexibility or durability.

I play with Harliquins, but I still use banshees. Heck even more so for cheap serpent option in the elite slot. They are the cheapest elites and by them being soooo cheap I can run 9 serpents in 1850 due to banshees.

I don't know why the stealers are not used due to 6th. The broodlord can have 2 biomancy rolls.

Another thought is using invisibility on Banshees or casting halluncinate on the squad they are assaulting. They both in a way give you grenades.