On second thought this seemed more appropriate under background:Astartes Sexuality

[The Last Lamenter]

Unless suggesting corruption from Slanaash, the 40k authors’ complete lack of discussion of sexuality in reference to the Astartes has become a topic of conjecture, controversy, and, of course, much humor within the community. We either tend to impose sexuality by projecting our own 21st century ideas of what sexuality is upon Astartes, or we join with the authors in simply not dealing with it by making highly obscure references to the infertile nature of marines and how it is erased through hypnotherapy, and careful hormone regulation, but these views are too narrow. They are too human, and it is, in fact, a new form of sexuality that heightens the idea that the Astartes, while not alien, are not human at all, and have their own forms of reproduction and sexual identity.

In Ender’s Game, 1985, Orson Scott Card creates a foundation that is the starting point for the discussion of Astartes sexuality when he writes of the Formics, “Ender could see in his mind the slug-like males clinging to the walls of a dark tunnel, and the large adults carrying the infant queen to the mating room; each male in turn penetrated the larval queen, shuddered in ecstasy, and died, dropping to the tunnel floor and shriveling. Then the new queen was laid before the old” (319). This behavior has precedence in insect biology. And it is common to somehow link death with the act of reproduction or rebirth, for example, the monomythic cycle places death right before rebirth, Salmon must spawn or die, in medieval literature “to die” metaphorically meant to ******, and in science fiction, Vulcans must mate every seven years or die, the only alternative being to participate in ritualistic combat. From this idea, the Astartes crafts his sexual identity being linked to combat and death, but takes it much deeper than the Vulcan counterpart, which only mentions it two or three times in the entire Star Trek series.

The Astartes sexual identity is well-rounded and fulfills life’s desire to breed while being indicative of his identity. The Astartes must have a form of sexuality to know themselves. As Michael Foucault stated in 1977, “The Western world… has always asked ‘To know who you are, know what your sexuality is.’ Sex has always been the forum where both the future of our species and our 'truth' as human subjects are decided” The writers of Astartes must answer this question to come to their own “truth,” but they have already dealt with this issue, the entire sum of the Astartes’ sexuality is contained within the progenoid gland, both biologically and symbolically.

The progenoid gland, seperates the Astartes even more from humanity by replacing his testicles, the all-inclusive source of his identity as a sexual being and a man. The testicles are relegated to mere hormone production, once the initiate rises to a battle brother and undergoes the required surgeries. They no longer carry his seed as an Astartes. This role is fulfilled by the gene seed. (Even if the testicles remain as human, semen-producing organs, as some still claim, they do not truly reproduce, as in another Astartes, they would only produce humans, or, in the case of Chaos, some awful spawn)

The Astartes tradition takes the medieval notion of death and ****** quite literally. Although the general consenus is that an Astartes can have his seed removed at five and ten years respectively, the latter mature gland is traditionally harvested by an Apothecary in battle. Therefore, in death, the Astartes’ sexuality is manifest. By dying in battle, he takes part in a sexual act and fulfills both a male and female role if we must have human analogies. He is cut open and the seed removed, he gives birth violently, but he fertilizes the seed internally beforehand. His seed is then implanted into another, penetrated, thus completing the male act in death.

Reproduction is one of the most powerful motivating forces in the world. According to Freudian interpretation it is the most powerful motivating force. The Astartes are bred for war and relish the act because it holds the potential for death, which is so intimately connected to their sexuality. Their death is their reproduction, by which they will pass on their genetic identity, borrowed from the Primarch. The Emperor crafted the Astartes to focus and connect every urge into the act of war, even their sexuality, there it’s a very real possibility that the Astartes anticipate and associate the act of war with a certain level of pleasure, for it holds the potential for their form of sex.

Astartes are not asexual, in fact their sexuality is more profound, violent, and artistic than any human form of the act. They are not insect drones, destined only to shudder and die, but are made for war and war only with all other aspects of life including comraderie and sex being not secondary too, but rather complementary of their sole purpose.

[Nabterayl]

Reposted.

Suggestion: empty lines between paragraphs.

Responses:

The Astartes tradition takes the medieval notion of death and ****** quite literally. Although the general consenus is that an Astartes can have his seed removed at five and ten years respectively, the latter mature gland is traditionally harvested by an Apothecary in battle. Therefore, in death, the Astartes’ sexuality is manifest. By dying in battle, he takes part in a sexual act and fulfills both a male and female role if we must have human analogies. He is cut open and the seed removed, he gives birth violently, but he fertilizes the seed internally beforehand. His seed is then implanted into another, penetrated, thus completing the male act in death.
This seems like a very Astartes view to me. I don't disagree that they themselves might see it this way. On the other hand, must we? An Astartes' gametes will not produce another Astartes, but neither will his geneseed. The Astartes reproduction process - as even the chapters themselves see it - is not a purely genetic act. There are critical dietic and surgical components even to the purely biological half of the Astartes reproduction ritual. Simply implanting a homo sapiens with a chapter's geneseed does not produce a space marine of that chapter, even in body. Then too, there are social and psychological components to the reproduction ritual - the selection and removal of a homo sapiens of the desired age and temperament, the hypnoconditioning and psychosurgery that is part of the extended implantation ritual.

I would suggest that it is better to view Astartes reproduction as communal - it doesn't just take a village to raise a space marine; it takes a village to make one in the first place. I think geneseed harvesting is better viewed as a brother's contribution to the chapter community - a sexual one, if one is willing to grant sexual its academic meaning, but not a birth, and not a complete act. For that matter, I'd suggest that space marines themselves see very few acts as completed except by the community - the reification of community, after all, is what makes space marine operational patterns possible to begin with.


for it holds the potential for their form of sex.
I think this is making sex too cerebral a motivation. If a space marine looks forward to battle, with its possibility of death and contribution of geneseed, I think it would be better to analogize that anticipation to the anticipation any soldier might experience of protecting one's family and legacy. That is a real pleasure, but we know from psychological studies that it is almost never in a soldier's mind during or on the eve of battle. It is also a very different pleasure from the pleasure one derives from the anticipation of sex. Unless the psychological part of the creation of a space marine changes this (which I suppose it could, though nobody has ever suggested it does).

[droozy]

Well remember that the vast majority of astartes are going thru the process that makes them into space marines at a very young are. Sexuality is something like 90% mental. That mental part we are not born with, we learn as human sexuality is arguably the most important aspect of all human culture. Astartes are robbed of that as they (with rare exception) are plucked before they are old enough to develop these ideas thru a cultural template. The central role that sexuality plays in the minds of morals is replaced with violence and war. The physiological changes an astartes undergoes would be dwarfed by that change in priorities. I would argue that astartes at removed psychologically from the game of love. They have no interest in it as it is not a part of their culture.

[Nurglitch]

In Horus Rising the poet Karkasy comments that Astartes are emotionally stunted. Likewise in the Night Lords series, the slaves occasionally get creeped out by how the giant killing machines have the emotionally maturity of children.

[Cactus]

I get the impression you're about to write some fanfic... Not to mention the fact that due to his own ranting/raving/bat****crazy bias, Card is not an author that you should borrow any ideas about sexuality from.

Honestly, I've never thought about space marines getting their rocks off. I don't think it's relevant for my little plastic dolls to move around the table and pew-pew-pew each other to death.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I don't think I ever expected to see Foucault and Freud in a discussion about Space Marines, so bravo for that. But, uh, I think you're overthinking it.

[Nurglitch]

Speaking of science fiction authors, it might be something to review Frank Herbert's God-Emperor of Dune where the titular character has created the Royal Society of Fish-Speakers, an all-female army dedicated personally to Himself. The narrator has quite a lot to say about the sublimation of sexual drives into violence. I think the book is probably one of the sources used in the original Rogue Trader, what with the trope of an Emperor worshiped as a god and dying for Mankind.

[chromedog]

In Horus Rising the poet Karkasy comments that Astartes are emotionally stunted. Likewise in the Night Lords series, the slaves occasionally get creeped out by how the giant killing machines have the emotionally maturity of children.

Well, this explains why soooo many teenage boys are attracted to space marines like butterflies to candle flames, then.

Emotionally stunted
Emotional maturity of children

Like attracts like and all that. :D

[Katharon]

Yeah, this entire spiel has a lot of preconceptions and rather disjointed conclusions. Doesn't really make me care any more about the subject or care to dive into it any further. I think the closest most people have gotten to the subject would be to know if Ragnar Blackmane ever did it with that Navigator chick he had to guard or if Loken ever acted upon his obvious desires for Mersadie Oliton.

I think it is just a non-issue and a subject that most writers don't take much time for because it is a non-issue. You don't need to have sex to create another Space Marine and the progenoid glands is a biological device that initiates the physical changes to turn a human into an Astartes. Hardly anything sexual about that, or the method of removal of said gene seed. Also, while some might make cracking jokes about "gene seed," then you need to remember that a seed is simply something that is meant to grow into some larger and stronger, a sprout into a tree, etc. Nothing mythical or dodgy about it.

Long story short, it's a non-issue and doesn't have much (if any) controversy.

[Bob821]

[QUOTE= Honestly, I've never thought about space marines getting their rocks off. I don't think it's relevant for my little plastic dolls to move around the table and pew-pew-pew each other to death. [/QUOTE]

While I agree with this statement we are all going to have different interpretations on how in-depth we wish to look are hobby. Good luck to you lamentor but don't spend to long thinking about Space Marine reproduction or you may find in a position of not being able to find anyone who wants to ‘reproduce’ with you ;)

[Vent]

Totally relevant...
5231

[Denzark]

You have written a veritable essay there, so I will apply some thought to it.

Firstly, you talk about how we project 21st century ideas of what sexuality is upon astartes. You don't define the 'we' here nor the sample audience ie how many 'we' is. I must therefore respectfully disagree - I don't think the majority of the community think about astartes sexuality at all.

You also dive from mentioning 21st century sexuality to then quote
authors from 1977 and 1985 respectively. A definition of what you think 'we' think 21st century ideas of sexuality are rather than resort to 20th century examples.

Your paragraph about astartes taking medieval notions of death and whatever ***** is, literally, then gos on to say the in death the astartes sexuality is manifest. It is not a sexual act at all. A sexual act implies something between the 2 sexes - whereas a space marine is more properly asexual - he doesn't find an attraction in sex - certainly not through death - his whole purpose is to serve the Emperor and the Chapter and he cannot do that dead - dreadnoughts notwithstanding. Neither do I see any evidence that the geneseed is fertilized internally - fertilization implying to me an egg and sperm effect -whereas geneseed merely matures.

This being true - the raison d'etre of astartes is to serve chapter and empire - does not hold with the freudian interpetation (or your variant thereof) because astartes don't seek death, nor flirt with its 'attractive possibility' as you seem to posit. They relish the act of war because they exist to execute the will of the Emperor - 'I am the Emperor's Will made manifest.'

Again, your final paragraph as to how astartes are not asexual, I disagre with - they are by the very dictionary defintion of the word. They are not drones either - but the camaraderie is based on what is necessary to survive the battlefields of the 41st millenium - trust, teamwork, respect for skill at arms. That complements their sole purpose - the will of the Emperor.



TL: DR - You are over thinking this.

[balisong]

I think sexuality actually varies a bit according to the Legion/Chapter.

This has to do with their recruiting habits, philosophies, and the indoctrination approach they take towards recruits. It's clear that some have all sexual desire removed from them and may perhaps even be physically incapable of the act. In the case of the non codex and first founding legions though it's muddier.

On the SM side, I think it's pretty clear in the fluff that the Space Wolves and Salamanders are at least capable of establishing strong relationships with members of the opposite sex, and may even be sexually active. While those such as the Ultramarines that follow the codex to the letter may be more Eunuch or clearly believe in the Greek ideal of the love between brothers in arms as espoused by Phaedrus in Plato's Symposium.

On the CSM side things are much clearer.

Slannesh devotees clearly engage in sex as part of their rites of worship. Whether being physically capable of the act is a result of Daemonic mutation or other is not explained and for the most part left up to the imagination of the reader.

Of the non-slannesh aligned, the Night Lords do at least have some sexuality in their fluff. It says outright that their recruiting included rapists. (One of the many reasons for Curse's exterminatus on Nostramo).

This would mean that the sexuality of their recruits was well established before their indoctrination. And may have been outright condoned at some level as it added to "Fear Inspiring" reputation.

In the Novels by DB and "Lord of the Night" both Talos and Zso Sahaal have somewhat S&M relationships with the lead female characters.

Talos makes every effort to control Octavia sexually. He repeatedly imposes his control over her in an effort to stop and control her relationship with Septimus. And some of the acts he has her do, while not outright sexual in nature have a psychology similar to that of a pimp and a prostitute. It's also worth noting that the books make it clear that Talos's mother was a prostitute, and that may have influenced his control over her as well. Without getting into spoilers, by the end of the series, it's clear that Octavia is in love with both of them on some level and in a sense. Talos seems to reciprocate in his own way.

In the Lord of the Night, Sahaal's relationship with Mita Ashyn is definitely heading towards some sort of romance, and in many ways, seemed to be the prototype for Talos/Octavia. If that book had resulted in a series, I'm sure they would have gotten together in some way.

Outside of the SM/CSM it's clear that the different factions have well-established sexuality, and each faction could have a similar thread.

[Ravingbantha]

Space Marines may be taken at a young age, but that does not mean they are childish. Most fluff on marines has a testing and trial period these 'kids' go through to become a candidate. Throughout most of human history a 15 year old had already accomplished a lot. Most 'kids' would enter military service around 6-8 years of age. There is even an instance of an 8 year old Lietenant being placed in temporary command of a captured French warship. The fact that we treat teenagers like kids these days is a historical abnormality.

The idea of Space Marines having or not having sex can easily be resolved in some very simple ways. 1) They could simply be taking a vow of celibacy, like many warrior monks throughout history have. 2) It could be programmed out, Space Marine fluff has them learning all they know through machines that program in the knowledge. I would say programming it out is just as easy. 3) The Hormones that drive out sexual appatites are suppressed as a side effect from all the other crap they get put into them. 4) Or you can simply castrate a marine, this kills the urge all together, though I doubt this would be the most likely solution (which is why I listed it last), as doing so often has the side effect of making the person more docile.

[Pauly Addams]

Well, that was pretty fraking interesting, I'm not going to say I completely agree with all of it, but it's an interesting angle to consider. It certainly adds the 'battle poety' of the warrior character of Astartes, even if only a metaphor.

I don't agree that this was too over thought either, I'm actually pretty fascinated by marine psychology, but more than just one aspect of course. For me it's the concept of what a marine is really made of, not just the power armour and the mini-rocket machine gun. But things like cellular perfection creating physiological immortality, the hormonally driven killing urges/xenophobia honed to a fine razor edge via hypnotherapy, the rapture and catharsis they experience though the holy act of battle etc.

All that stuff gets me pumped.

Thanks for sharing.

~Pauly

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Well, yes, that was interesting.
I've read books about Space Marines (in one form or another) for over 20 years, and if I'm honest I think the main reason it's never broached isn't one of biology or context.
It's about target audience.
The GW target audience, in the eyes of the company anyway, "isn't interested".

I've personally always prescribed to the view that if an Astartes was interested and capable that it would be too mechanically difficult a situation between a mortal and an Astartes to address anyway.
I mean they're so inhuman that it's just going to big physiological challenge for both partners. Mortal humans are the size of children to them.
The notion of romantic entanglement is really far more interesting to explore, and even then I'd be dubious because of the psychological otherness that makes up a marine.
"Brothers of the Snake" for example covers the clear infatuation of a human female with an Astartes who simply doesn't understand the concept, but then the whole Ragnar issue arises.
Again I feel that the "otherness" is too great.
If you proscribe to the theory that I am wrong, well to be honest I'm going on gut feeling and the express contents of the novels rather than the implied contents, so I could very well be wrong.

The final answer is probably this, it'll never be officially answered because GW doesn't care. They'll take the line that if you want romance in a novel you should read novels about other races "broke-squig mountain" was very enlightening for example :rolleyes: .
Ian Watson and Sandy Mitchell have never been shy about letting commissars and inquisitors get romantically (or otherwise) involved with all sorts of people, so who knows.
As for the procreation through death thing, it's grim and dark.
So i guess it fits the setting perfectly:p, but that it's likely being over-thought.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

How incredibly ****ing creepy...



Are you the type of person to talk about how his roman soldiers are currently raping their way through the town the conquered in a historical war-game?

[Kaptain Badrukk]

How incredibly ****ing creepy...



Are you the type of person to talk about how his roman soldiers are currently raping their way through the town the conquered in a historical war-game?

Harsh dude.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Harsh dude.

Not you, the whole premise of the OP

[Kaptain Badrukk]

That's what I meant, figured you weren't aiming it at anyone personally.
The OP is a dissection of a theory on Astartes sexuality.
A bit (sic. LOT) more in depth than most people would bother, but who are we to judge?
And you have to admit it fits with the whole grim-dark feel.

[Nabterayl]

Yeah ... creepy to you, I guess? I mean, as my post shows, I don't agree with most of the OP's actual conclusions, but the thought of Astartes having sex, or even raping people, doesn't upset me more than the thought of Astartes being child traffickers. 40K isn't primarily a game I play with toy soldiers. To me, it's primarily a story setting, and I don't think about it any less seriously than I think about any other story setting. I can't imagine I'm the only one for whom that's true.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Yeah i'd say the undercurrent of essentially abducting and mutating pre-pubescent boys is probably a whole lot darker than, "can they fall in love and have a family?".
But each to their own.

[Denzark]

The fact that the recruits are pre-pubescent is physiological rather than sexual - so less creepy in that light.

[Nabterayl]

Oh, sure. I don't think space marines regularly engage in child sexual abuse. Just child abuse.

[Denzark]

Surely we must look through the values, or at least consider them, of any gven society prior to judging it?

21st Century liberal lefties: Oh no the astartes perpetuate child slave labour and indoctrinate boy soldiers. They are worse than African Despots! Call Amnesty International!

41st Millenium: My Family is honoured for all time because one of our sons was selected for astartes trg....

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Surely we must look through the values, or at least consider them, of any gven society prior to judging it?

21st Century liberal lefties: Oh no the astartes perpetuate child slave labour and indoctrinate boy soldiers. They are worse than African Despots! Call Amnesty International!

41st Millenium: My Family is honoured for all time because one of our sons was selected for astartes trg....

LOL @ the concept of judging a fictional society. Like I said, I think we're over-thinking this.

[Nabterayl]

Surely we must look through the values, or at least consider them, of any gven society prior to judging it?

21st Century liberal lefties: Oh no the astartes perpetuate child slave labour and indoctrinate boy soldiers. They are worse than African Despots! Call Amnesty International!

41st Millenium: My Family is honoured for all time because one of our sons was selected for astartes trg....
Well ... yes and no. I mean, it's certainly healthy to assume that your society isn't the end-all be-all of morality. On the other hand, we can't just take every society at its word unless we're prepared to give up value judgments on societies altogether.

In the real world, I'm sure there are people who think that's a sensible approach, but for a fictional world, I think it's silly. Half the fun of 40K is judging its society based on our own values. I mean, by the standards of the Imperium, its society is pretty much the best of all possible worlds. There is nothing grim or dark about it. In fact, by the standards of the Imperium, thinking that it's grim or dark is a good way to damn your soul forever to Nurgle.

So ... yes, I agree that most of those parents, and probably most of the kids, would never even think of saying no when the chaplain says that their child has been chosen - and as we know, plenty of parents (and kids) actually voluntarily compete to be chosen, depending on the recruiting practices of the chapter in question. There's a sense, though, in which that makes it even creepier. At that point, it's just institutionalized child trafficking.

***

I ... hope this goes without saying, but of course, if you want to put it this way, the other half of the fun of 40K is taking the world according to its own values.

[Dlatrex]

Why do I suddenly think about life on Volg?

"This one, you like. Old Volg story for religious instruction. One day, dredge sinker scraping algae off mold filter. Think he maybe see pictograph of Blessed Emperor's throne on filter. Replace filter and take to Cleric. Cleric executes him for wasting mould filter. Such is life on Volg."

[Ravingbantha]

Surely we must look through the values, or at least consider them, of any gven society prior to judging it?

21st Century liberal lefties: Oh no the astartes perpetuate child slave labour and indoctrinate boy soldiers. They are worse than African Despots! Call Amnesty International!

41st Millenium: My Family is honoured for all time because one of our sons was selected for astartes trg....

it's not just 41st Millenium, that thought process would have existed for most of human history. it's only been the past 100-150 years in western society that we have declaired that a 15 year old is still considered a child. throughout most of history a 15 year old, would have already served in the military for 7 years, and some of that in a combat role.

[Nabterayl]

throughout most of history a 15 year old, would have already served in the military for 7 years, and some of that in a combat role.
I ... don't think that's true. For most of human history the idea of a "military" hasn't really been cognizable, and when it has been - from around 3,000 BC onward or so - I can't think of any societies that considered having eight year olds fighting in the army routine. Can you name a couple?

But the monstrous thing about space marine recruitment processes, to me, isn't tied to cultural ideas about when a person should "grow up." It's tied to the fact that the system is set up so that the parents - the ones with brains that are physiologically capable of critical thinking - either can't or won't say no, and the recruit is physiologically incapable of thinking about the decision with the same level of depth that an adult would be. By the time the kid has a brain that is fully capable of processing the question, he's a battle-brother, and if at that point (or indeed, prior to it) he says, "Hey guys ... thanks for the honor, but I don't want to be a space marine" his only option is to turn "renegade," at which point he will be hunted down and killed. You're allowed to choose the life of a space marine, but you aren't allowed to choose anything else.

Whether the eight- to ten-year olds in question are "children" or not in a cultural sense is really a sidebar to me. They're still slavers and kidnappers.

[Lord Anubis]

21st Century liberal lefties: Oh no the astartes perpetuate child slave labour and indoctrinate boy soldiers. They are worse than African Despots! Call Amnesty International!



As opposed to the 21st Century conservative wingnuts who'd sell their children for a dollar and then brag about it to their friends...?

The topic's bizarre enough without adding in backhanded political jabs.

[Denzark]

Oh, do jog on. There's a good fellow.

[madlants]

Well this thread is going downhill fast.

Soooo... Space Marine sex drives...
I always felt like Space Marines were chemical eunichs. They have all the hardware, but all those extra organs/chemicals/etc. in their bodies don't react well with their normal hormones and render them sterile and impotent. This view makes sense from a scientific standpoint. I know it's been briefly mentioned in the fluff that Space Wolves have families, but family doesn't necessarily mean kids, and Fenris is a clan society. You're entire clan is your extended family. I just look at it as the Space Wolves still having ties back home whereas most SMs completely sever all ties when they join the chapter. Besides, when would they have TIME for a wife and kids? The complete absence of sexuality in Space Marine fluff that isn't Slaanesh related actually says quite a lot. Even the Sisters of Battle have BL related fluff about them having romantic relationships, but not SMs. Still, just because their hardware doesn't work doesn't mean they might not occasionally experience certain feelings. In real history, even eunichs still felt certain attractions. However, with how all consuming fighting and training is in SM life, I doubt they have any chance to act on any brief feelings, and the fact that their hardware doesn't work (and I highly doubt SMs take sex ed) would add to this being disregarded. Most of 'em probably don't even know what goes where. The idea that they vent some of those sexual feelings on the battlefield is perfectly reasonable, since the psychological link between sex and violence is well documented.

Now, with Slaanesh worshipers, all bets are off. I'd imagine that getting marked by Slaanesh not only restores activity down below, but probably ties arousal with violence and pain TENFOLD, cause those are the things that Slaanesh is all about. This is why you get thinly veiled fluff references to (horrifying) Slaanesh marine sexy time. Still can't reproduce that way though. I can actually imagine this being a thing Slaanesh worshiping marines are quite proud of. "Loyalists and worshipers of other gods are flaccid! We're the only astartes who are real men! And women, sometimes. Preferably both at once."

And that is absolutely all I feel like writing about what goes on in Space Marine's crotchular regions.

[Just_Me]

Personally, I think this is a very interesting topic. To all those who would rush to say we are "overthinking it" I would say Nabterayl has already provided a response:


?...40K isn't primarily a game I play with toy soldiers. To me, it's primarily a story setting, and I don't think about it any less seriously than I think about any other story setting. I can't imagine I'm the only one for whom that's true.

I share this sentiment and don't really see anything wrong with putting this level of thought into the subject. It happens to be our way to enjoy the hobby and is no more "weird" than "normal" people who obsess over similarly artificial and abstracted aspect of THEIR interests, like fantasy football leagues... :p If you don't share our perspective that is fine, you enjoy the hobby your way and let us enjoy it in ours.

In answer to the original topic I agree with virtually all of what you said and would only quibble over wording. I agree that to an Astartes REPRODUCTION is a concept inextricably tied with death. This has been well documented in the background writing. The recovery, preservation, and protection of the progenoid glands is a profoundly sacred and reverential process. We have seen Astartes able to die in peace once they know that their geneseed has been recovered. The concept that they can then "live on" through their genetic heritage is evidently very real and meaningful, much as mortals take comfort in knowing that their legacy will be carried on in their children. At the same time we have seen them profoundly disturbed and horrified at the prospect of their geneseed not being recovered or failing to recover/losing a fallen brother's geneseed. This reaction has always appeared far more significant and visceral to them than really anything else, up to and including defeat, death, or dishonor. It generally appears comparable to how a mortal might react to the prospect of castration or infanticide. It is the inextricable connection between death and reproduction that the original post gets at, although I would suggest that this does not result in the anticipation of death so much as it contributes to the fact that they dot not fear death. Why should they fear death if they know that it is through death that they "reproduce?"

I would however differentiate between the reproductive drive and the motivation for the sexual act and accompanying sexual release. I believe that while it is through death that they satisfy the REPRODUCTIVE drive, the SEXUAL drive is fulfilled in a different form. For me to understand this I think it is necessary to recognize that asexuality is not the absence of a sexual identity but rather is a discreet sexual identity in and of itself. Be it through training, conditioning, chemical modification, or other indoctrination the Astartes sublimate whatever sexual energies/drives they have into their all consuming purpose; combat. Thus their sexual identity, as defined in relationship to the sex act, is asexual. They do not pursue sex in the way we do because their reproductive drive is satisfied in another way and their "sexual release" is achieved through battle. It is my personal belief that this is accomplished through training and indoctrination into the Chapter's unique mythos and identity and may take different forms depending on the nature of that culture.

It is also worth noting in lieu of my use of the term "sublimate" that this term, along with all of the other Freudian defense mechanisms, is often misunderstood and misused creating an implicit impression of referring to something "broken" or "unhealthy." They represent normal healthy processes by which our psyches adjust to the demands placed upon them. It is only when these adaptations have gotten "out of sync" so to speak and begin to cause impairment in other areas of functioning that they are "unhealthy." As such, the relative usefulness vs unhealthyness of any defense mechanism is highly conditional. While in the context of "normal" society and culture might be seen as psychologically damaged, in the context of the Astartes role and culture there is no such issue. Sublimating their sexual energies into their pursuit of martial excellence is extremely "healthy" given their unique situation in much the same way that the hyper-vigilance which manifests as certain PTSD symptoms in returning veterans was an adaptive and probably life-preserving response to the environment in which it formed, it is only when removed from their context that they become maladaptive.

[The Last Lamenter]

Just-me: that was extremely thought-provoking, I had not really given thought to drawing a clear distinction between reproductive and sexual drives, I'll need to develop that one some more.

[Darren Richardson]

well we know we can add Gaunt to that list as well, the most recent book it turned out he had a son after getting it on with a noble lady from Verghive...


Ian Watson and Sandy Mitchell have never been shy about letting commissars and inquisitors get romantically (or otherwise) involved with all sorts of people, so who knows.
As for the procreation through death thing, it's grim and dark.
So i guess it fits the setting perfectly:p, but that it's likely being over-thought.

[Darren Richardson]

I think some space marines are capable of the emotionial aspects releating to the whole sexual reproduction aspect, as in some books they certainly gain attachments to their serfs some who are clearly stated as being female as in the novel "Legion Of The Damned" the lead character's serf dies and I read between the lines that the way the author wrote the deaths that the space marine clearly felt some deeply personal lost at that death.

I think that the Sexual urges in space marines could vary depending on how the chapter indoctrinate's it members, as each chapter has it's own processes and not all chapters will use all of those.

When reading about the space marines I see many similarities with the old Spartan culture in Greece and with certain levels of lifestyle in the Roman Empire, with younger males being taken under the wing of the older male, the older male would then teach the younger everything from the art of war to sexual techniques, so there is certainly a level of what today we would classify Homosexuality within the space marine culture, but mostly on the emotional level.

As for physicly that's a different story, after all each space marine is given a potent mix of drugs, genteicly engineered organs and artifical hormones, which would almost certainly affect the normal hormonal changes each recruit would normally undergo during his teenage years if he wasn't within the space marines, but lastly think of the physical size of a space marine, typically being describe from anywhere between 7 to 8 feet tall, to use the reproductive organ would be almost impossible on any ordinary women, the poor women would suffer massive hemoriging after the act, after all the reproductive organ is a muscle and the space marine has undergone masive hormone therepy to increase muscle denisity.

Of course overall everyone who goes on about this too long has waaaaayyyy to much time on their hands, myself included!
:)