Has GW Invalidated any Model Builds since IVth Edition?

[Chris Copeland]

Troops, has there been a single model build in any codex since IVth Edition that has been invalidated? Any model that was once legal to field in IVth (or Vth) that would not be legal now? I don't think there is (but I'd willingly admit I was wrong if I'm shown to be). These days GW goes out of the way not to invalidate models. I'm pretty sure I'm right about this... please advise...

[Chris Copeland]

And I'm not referring to units like the Pariah. The Pariah got a new name and a cooler model so that doesn't count. I'm talking about "Model X can no longer be fielded with weapon Y" type stuff...

[Kaiserdean]

And I'm not referring to units like the Pariah. The Pariah got a new name and a cooler model so that doesn't count. I'm talking about "Model X can no longer be fielded with weapon Y" type stuff...

I mostly think of base sizes, like terminators/mega armor getting bigger bases or IG getting heavy weapon teams on a 60mm base. The ork Trukk because twice the size and I've heard opponents grumble about the size change.

There were a few armies that had weapon options that slipped through the cracks, like troops with Multi-Melta options, Imperial/Marines with shirken catapults/pistols, etc. Terminator Honors for some troops is now a worthless shoulder pad.

Specifically, my Valhallan LT. can't use his hand flamer, a Cadian SGT. can't use his shotgun, and a Commissar can't use his hand flamer. Some ork heavy weapons were lost as well.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Hmm. I suppose many of the 4th ed. Marines codexes allowed you to put lightning claws and such on apothecaries. Only Blood Angels get to do that now.

Grey Knight Terminators used to be able to rock Storm Shield/Thunder Hammers (or was that 'dex 3rd ed.?).

I thinnnnk the 4th ed. Codex: Catachans had an option allowing for Las pistol/CCW on basic troops, but that's been dropped.

But yeah, they've been pretty good about not invalidating stuff - if only that policy had been in place before the 3.5 Chaos 'dex had been replaced :P

[bfmusashi]

There's little things like the old Ordo Malleus Inquisitors in Terminator Armour are no longer WYSIWYG as they can't have force rods or powerfists. IG heavy weapon changes (plasma cannon and multi melta) moved to servitors.

[Mr Mystery]

There's little things like the old Ordo Malleus Inquisitors in Terminator Armour are no longer WYSIWYG as they can't have force rods or powerfists. IG heavy weapon changes (plasma cannon and multi melta) moved to servitors.

Dude said since IVth edition. All the stuff so far ended in either 1st or 2nd...

[Houghten]

Any and all Deathwing apothecary conversions you'd made before their 6th edition book are now illegal, unless you forewent WYSIWYG in the first place, as they didn't used to have to drop any weapons to hold their narthecium.

I have absolutely no idea what I'm supposed to do with my old Lexmechanic model, either. Sages just up and vanished from Inquisitorial retinues when Grey Knights took over.

[Chris Copeland]

The game is to think of a model from 4th or 5th Edition which can't be used at all in 6th. Even if it has a new job it's still a legal model in this mental exercise. I'm trying to think of models where I say, "Crap, I can't put this model down on the table at all because of the latest rules. It has to be converted."

[Chris Copeland]

I'd like to set the parameters of this exercise to 'dexes printed in 4th Edition or later (to keep it manageable).

[lobster-overlord]

THe only one giving me trouble is the IG Sgts that I made using 4th ed codex that had shotguns and now can't take that as an option (still cool conversions so I leave them as Sgts with laspistols).

Did Cypher have 4th ed Rules? Cause he's not in anything currently.

[Chris Copeland]

For this exercise I need to know: can the Vallhallan LT be validly plopped down on the table in a different role? The Termie Honors are just bling so that doesn't change anything. Let's take base sizes out of the equation. I'm trying to zoom in on models that can't be used at all (in any roles) since 4th Edition (and only in 'dexes that were printed in 4th Edition or later)...


I mostly think of base sizes, like terminators/mega armor getting bigger bases or IG getting heavy weapon teams on a 60mm base. The ork Trukk because twice the size and I've heard opponents grumble about the size change.

There were a few armies that had weapon options that slipped through the cracks, like troops with Multi-Melta options, Imperial/Marines with shirken catapults/pistols, etc. Terminator Honors for some troops is now a worthless shoulder pad.

Specifically, my Valhallan LT. can't use his hand flamer, a Cadian SGT. can't use his shotgun, and a Commissar can't use his hand flamer. Some ork heavy weapons were lost as well.

[bfmusashi]

Dude said since IVth edition. All the stuff so far ended in either 1st or 2nd...
People were already going pre-4th. I was just following the trend :p
And since we're apparently talking about rules changes from 4th on ignoring the production date of the model my point still stands.

[Chris Copeland]

Under the constraints of this exercise the Sgts with the shotguns could still be plopped down on the table as Pvts with shotguns, right?


THe only one giving me trouble is the IG Sgts that I made using 4th ed codex that had shotguns and now can't take that as an option (still cool conversions so I leave them as Sgts with laspistols).

Did Cypher have 4th ed Rules? Cause he's not in anything currently.

[Chris Copeland]

For clarity, let me ask the question this way: "Are there any models that come from 4th Edition or later codexes that cannot be used *in any way* without being modded in 6th? Take base size out of the equation, please. Take 3rd Edition 'dexes that had a long shelf life out of the equation. We are looking for models that have been entirely invalidated from 4th or 5th Edition printings by 6th Edition."

[Xenith]

I think the answer you are looking for is: No.

Since you yourself have already allowed 'counts as' into the equation, you can always count something as something else.

Codex authors are increasingly allowing models in units be able to take options that are physically present on the models, even when it makes no sense. Case in point being the Cultist leader from C:CSM being able to take a shotgun, when no one else in the unit can. Just because the DC model has one.

[Houghten]

I think you might have narrowed your focus a bit too much, there.

[Chris Copeland]

I just want a clean set of parameters. :) The primary rule is this: can this model be used in some way in my current codex without changing anything other than the base size? Can I plop it down on the table and it be perfectly legal and identifiable in a game with Jervis Johnson himself (in a tournament held at GW Nottingham)?

I'm only taking about 4th Edition 'dexes and after
base size is not an issue
The model needs to be valid within the same army
Can the model be plopped down on the table and used with validity without modding it at all?



That's the game... cheers... Cope

[Chris Copeland]

We seem to have a winner: 4th Edition IG trooper with Storm Bolter has no home these days (per an IG playing friend of mine). Cool!

[Wolfshade]

IIRC 4th ed. Codex Space Wolves could take Leman Russ Tanks.

[lobster-overlord]

We seem to have a winner: 4th Edition IG trooper with Storm Bolter has no home these days (per an IG playing friend of mine). Cool!

Couldnt he be a commisar in regular fatigues...

[Sainhann]

Why not go back to 2nd & 3rd Edition because then there would be a long list of models that are no viable any more.

By 4th Edition they had completed their purge of items and while there is likely something.

Like the Dark Reaper Exarch with the Web of Skulls which can't be us that way anymore.

[khambatta]

The female Inquisitors. Yes, the ones that are still available :D
I don't know what some of those weapons are... a combi- bolt-pistol/needle-crossbow?

Going back further could get messy. My first Blood Claws squad had 3 each of power fists, power axes & plasma pistols.

[deinol]

This goes way back to 2nd Ed, but I have a Deathjester riding a Vyper that is pretty useless. Looks very cool.

[Kaiserdean]

For this exercise I need to know: can the Vallhallan LT be validly plopped down on the table in a different role?

No, there aren't any hand flamers any more.

[Chris Copeland]

Why not go back to 2nd & 3rd Edition because then there would be a long list of models that are no viable any more.

By 4th Edition they had completed their purge of items and while there is likely something.

Mostly because 4th seems to be the advent of the modern 40K era. Also, I think it was at the beginning of 4th that they came to the realization that it was in their best interests NOT to go around pissing off customers by invalidating their armies. They made the decision to not invalidate model build. Now, a model might change it's name or change it's job but no one has to say, "Well, I can't use THAT model anymore!"

Going through this thread (here and in other places I've been having this conversation) I am struck by how FEW models have been rendered unplayable since the advent of 4th Edition! My veteran gamer friends tell me this is MUCH different from the 3rd Edition (and earlier) days when models would become obsolete willy-nilly. I'm pretty sure I once read an article that Jervis wrote exactly about this phenomenon.

[DarkLink]

Oh, they still invalidate armies. Tzeentch Daemons went from pretty much broken with the WD update, to pretty much terrible with the new codex. I know at least one Daemon player who went from winning tournaments, to struggling to win at all.

[Chris Copeland]

Oh, they still invalidate armies. Tzeentch Daemons went from pretty much broken with the WD update, to pretty much terrible with the new codex. I know at least one Daemon player who went from winning tournaments, to struggling to win at all. His army isn't as good but he can still plunk it down on the table and play, right? Really, that's the test I'm looking at. GW tries not to invalidate stuff these days like they used to do regularly in the old days...

[chicop76]

I think I will mention playable and model wise

Broadsides for starters.
1. New broadsides are 3x bigger on bigger bases
2. No high yield missle pods for older broadsides

Marker drones. Unless you buy more pathfinders no way you get these also the same for the other three drones. Have to buy a whole kit just for drones.

Metal stealth suits a pain to add fusion

I don't know about flamers of Tzeentch I used them heavly since day one. I will use them now. I now have a cheap guy with strength 6 ap 4 attacks or strength 5 ap 2 master crafted attacks. Not really complaing about that.

Besides vassal never got a bunch of screamers.

I say they did a number on pink horrors.

Oh here is a good one

Tzeentch Hearld on Chariot went from a 5 wound eternal warrior, jetbike, +4 invulberable save model to a fast armour 10 chariot with th lost of gaze and bolt and the upgrade to do two shooting attacks and splitfire. Just notice I lost splitfire the *******s.

No one took the slaanech chariot and they made that one better.

Do we still no have plasma lascannon on razor backs

No tyranid drop pods

Aun'va and vespids are playable lol.

Fiends and bloodcrushers '(

Any sister of battle model

Oh deathcult. Half the deathcult is modeled with one power sword and you have option for 4 differant power weapons.

[Mr Mystery]

No, there aren't any hand flamers any more.

Blood Angels and Heresy...

[Joe TwoCrows]

It's pushing the 3rd/4th edition cutoff, but several DE models don't fit: Wyches with shredders or blasters, the old female dracon model, reavers with shredders, the original beastmaster model. OH! The old incubi had tormentor helms, and those helms don't exist anymore. That, and the old grotesque models can only be used as wracks, but look nothing like the new wracks. Seems like there are more, but that's off the cuff. Ah, yes; Kruellah the Vile.

[DarkLink]

His army isn't as good but he can still plunk it down on the table and play, right? Really, that's the test I'm looking at. GW tries not to invalidate stuff these days like they used to do regularly in the old days...


Yes, but it's a terrible army. GW's just a little more subtle now.

[Dalleron]

I don't know if it meets your criteria, but you can no longer take a SoB cannoness with a jump pack, even though they sold it with the option. Or I'm just making up the last part, but I have 2 canoness I can no longer use as they stand right now.

[spaceman91]

Not sure this is what your after but here it goes. I am always then one who gets ask to play with The younglings. Some of the stuff kids come up with is brilliant but not useable. I'm always the poor bugger that has to tell them " yes your terminator with a cannon is cool but i really cant let him fire it at my LR ".

[Wolfshade]

It is actually quite interesting as a number of 2nd ed items have actually came back in 5th/6th codecii.

[mysterex]

Three off the top of my head:

CSM slaaneshi terminators with noise marine weapons; and
Chaos hounds and big mutants from the Eye of Terror Lost and the Damned list.

All three became unusable after the release of the 2007 version of the CSM codex and I believe 4th ed came out in 2004.

The reason I know is I had both a Emperors Children army and a Lost and the Damned army that I could no longer play.

Actually I just thought of another one, Iron Warriors characters with servo arms.

[chicop76]

The kroot mercenary list where they tricked you into buying more kroot and than destroying same lst. After that I just ignored the white dwarf.

[Sly]

Mysterex hit on the ones I was going to mention, Cult Terminators with Noise Weapons. Also, Predators/Dreads with Noise Weapons. And Dreads with Havoc Launchers.
Also, Jump Pack Canonness.
Also, Possessed with Wings.
Also, just currently, DA Terminator Sergeants can only use SB/Power Sword, while in prior edition you could have an entire squad with TH/SS.

[david5th]

Mostly because 4th seems to be the advent of the modern 40K era.

I thought 3rd ed was the advent of modern 40K. The rules haven't changed that much in 4th,5th & 6th ed compared to the 2nd to 3rd ed jump.

[deinol]

I thought 3rd ed was the advent of modern 40K. The rules haven't changed that much in 4th,5th & 6th ed compared to the 2nd to 3rd ed jump.

3rd is where the core rules started to solidify, but I think 4e is where most of the army lists standardized.

[magickbk]

3rd edition brought in the basic system mechanics that are around now, compared to what was before it, but 4th-6th codex books are more unified in how weapon load-outs are equipped, and how army list variants work than anything before it. Only a handful of things that have been stated have changed since 4th, whereas 3rd still had a lot of things that are not currently in the lists, and the mentality of those books was different. Yes, rules changes may make some units or builds better or worse, but in terms of out-right invalidation of models, not that many.

[chicop76]

I thought 3rd ed was the advent of modern 40K. The rules haven't changed that much in 4th,5th & 6th ed compared to the 2nd to 3rd ed jump.

if I could consolidate in to units after combat nd have rending on hits. Man damonettes and diviation. Also no los is a big one.

I say just use these 3 rules from 3rd in 6 and we are good.

[Xenith]

I don't recall ever having seen a GW sculpt of a guardsman with a storm bolter.

Are you sure that this wasnt just an option for a model, and your friend converted the model, as opposed to a GW model that was made obsolete?

TL;DR: Pics or it didn't happen.

[Sly]

Add some more as I remembered:
CSM Bikes with Sonic Blasters.
CSM Preds with Sonic Blasters as sponson weapons.
CSM Thrall Wizards.
DE Archon on Jetbike.

[mysterex]

GW produced a CSM Lord/Sorcerer with a Kai gun (daemon weapon) and lightning claw. No more Kai guns and it's too big to pass as a combi-bolter so another invalidated model.

Seems most of the examples came out of when the CSM codex lost a lot of it's flavour.

[rle68]

scout sgt namann from the dark angels...gw made a model.... he doesnt exist any more

capt sicarus with lightning claws.. special edition model now that option doesnt exist

eldar bonesinger model special edition.... never existed in any book i ever saw.. made a good spirit seer if you converted it

familiars and servo skulls....

older armies

sgt centurious LOD.. doesnt exist anywhere

[Mr Mystery]

All the above can still be used.

Namann? Scout Sarge.
Sicarius? Captain with lightning claws.

So on, and so forth. Servo skulls? Warriors in a retinue unit thingy.

[Occam]

And I'm not referring to units like the Pariah. The Pariah got a new name and a cooler model so that doesn't count. I'm talking about "Model X can no longer be fielded with weapon Y" type stuff...

I'm a Necron player. What "new" Pariah did we get exactly? Do you mean Crypteks?

[Desert Rat]

Some catachan models had them. Here is a link to one I could find http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GW-Warhammer-40K-Guard-Catachan-Captain-with-Power-Fist-/400333957281?pt=UK_Toys_Wargames_RL&hash=item5d35c368a1

[Sainhann]

How about these guys.

http://store.wargamingtrader.com/system/files/imagecache/product_full/E887%20-%20Eldar%20Guardians%20with%20Lasguns%20x%203%20%2 01990%20%20%20%20%2011-10-30.jpg

When 4th Edition hit these guys were gone and many of us old time Eldar players have quite a few due to the way we had to make our Eldar army.