IC w/infiltrate joining units

[DrWobbles]

This query seems to be derailing other threads so i'm posting it here.

The question is whether or not a unit without the special rule infiltrate can do so once joined by an IC with the rule. This was my response to another poster;

sigh...

nowhere does the word 'normally' show up. "an independent character can begin the game already with a unit, either by by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in reserve, by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined." that's the full sentence. Infiltrators are still 'deployed' just like other units only a little later.

"Being deployed in unit coherency" does not mean one unit must be deployed then deploy your independent character. they are deployed simultaneously and in unit coherency.

"while an independent character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes..."

Does the IC have infiltrate? yes.

Can the IC begin the game already with a unit? yes.

Does a unit gain the infiltrators rule if at least one model has this rule? yes.

Can the unit infiltrate? YES.

[chicop76]

Are you answering your own question. Look up infiltrate it's plain as day. However it doesn't work the other way around. Like a farseer trying to infiltrate with pathfinders. Also scout works both ways.

Found this fun fact out with karnack and joining hounds with a herald of Khorne with a juggernought.

[Nabterayl]

If you're looking for confirmation that you have the rule correctly ... yes, you have the rule correctly. From the sound of it, you're dealing with a person or persons who is aware of the 5th edition debates on this question (when it was at best unclear whether you could join an IC to a unit before deploying either), but not aware of the 6th edition changes to deployment. Those changes eliminated what some used to consider a thorny question.

[Mkvenner]

Not to mention there is a precedent with ICs joining units in transports as well. Pg 121 does a good job of clearing some of this muck that people try and get others stuck in.

[Nabterayl]

Ah ... I think I understand the contrary argument now. It's the same as before - page 39 doesn't allow an IC to join a unit pre-game except in one of two ways: either it is deployed in coherency with the unit, or both are deployed in reserve. What we want, though, is a way for an IC (with Infiltrate) to join the unit neither in reserve (can't infiltrate once in reserve) nor on the table (can't infiltrate once placed on the table).

When I read through the book the first time I could have sworn you could simply declare that an IC had joined a unit pre-game, but I admit, I can't find anything that allows that.

[Tynskel]

Ah ... I think I understand the contrary argument now. It's the same as before - page 39 doesn't allow an IC to join a unit pre-game except in one of two ways: either it is deployed in coherency with the unit, or both are deployed in reserve. What we want, though, is a way for an IC (with Infiltrate) to join the unit neither in reserve (can't infiltrate once in reserve) nor on the table (can't infiltrate once placed on the table).

When I read through the book the first time I could have sworn you could simply declare that an IC had joined a unit pre-game, but I admit, I can't find anything that allows that.

I would say that the exception is in the Character's rules. The rule states that it can pass infiltrate to a unit it joins. The only way to make that work is to break the main rulebook rules, which the codex rule is clearly doing, and therefore is legal.

[Nabterayl]

The rule states that it can pass infiltrate to a unit it joins.
If we're talking about somebody like Shrike, I agree. I think that argument is much weaker when it comes to any old Independent Character who happens to have Infiltrate, but whose entry makes no mention of anything else (such as Shrike's "and models in his squad").

[chicop76]

If we're talking about somebody like Shrike, I agree. I think that argument is much weaker when it comes to any old Independent Character who happens to have Infiltrate, but whose entry makes no mention of anything else (such as Shrike's "and models in his squad").

How is it weak.

P8 38. Brb

" Units that contain at least on model with this special rule are deplyed last,... An Independant Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannont join a unit of Infiltrators during depolyment"

Which means and Ic with infiltrate that joins a unit gives that unit infiltrate and outflank. The draw back is that an IC can't infiltrate if he doesn't have infiltrate. Why is this still in question. Read your book. Answers a lot of questions if you read.

[Nabterayl]

My dear fellow, there's no need for veiled personal attacks. Page 38 establishes that an entire unit can infiltrate if a single member of that unit can, we quite agree. Page 39 establishes that an independent character who has "joined" a unit counts as a member of that unit, we quite agree. It follows, therefore, that if an independent character with Infiltrate can join a unit prior to that unit's deployment, the unit so joined could infiltrate. We quite agree.

Where, though, is the rule stating that an independent character can join a unit prior to that unit's deployment? I thought it was on page 39, but I don't see it. I agree with Tynskel that the ability to join a unit prior to that unit's deployment is implicit in the case of a character such as Shrike, whose See, But Remain Unseen rule seems to require it. I don't think page 38 requires it, though. Do you? If so, on what grounds?

[chicop76]

Pg 39. " an independent charactr can begin the game already with a unit, ... if the unit is in reserve... by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined

Pg. 121 Deploying Infiltrators under deployment.

I really don't see the problem 39 says you can deploy with them and infiltrating is under deployment. Same if you want to outflank.

There is no loop hole to get player x not to be able to infiltrate with shadowsun and harlequins for example.

[Nabterayl]

Well ... again, I agree with that quote as far as it goes, but I don't think it goes as far as you apparently do. Page 121 seems to me to establish three ways to deploy a unit. As it says, "[P]layers deploy their forces (apart from any units left kept as Reserves or that chose to use their Infiltrate special rule)." There are thus three options for a unit at deployment: it can deploy, it can be kept as Reserves, or it can Infiltrate.

If page 39 just said that an independent character can begin the game joined to a unit, provided that it begins the game in coherency with that unit if not kept as Reserves, there would be no issue. I think that's what it ought to say, and I'd be happy to see an erratum to that effect. But that's not what page 39 says. Page 39 gives two ways for "an Independent Character [to] begin the game already with a unit." The IC can "either be[] deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in reserve, [join it] by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined" (emphasis mine).

That only covers two of the three deployment options. Page 39 does not (though I wish it did and think it should) say anything about joining a unit that is going to make use of its Infiltrate special rule. Nor does it allow an IC to join a unit prior to deployment (though again, I wish it did and think it should). So the conundrum (absent some sort of required implication, as with Shrike) is actually the same as it was in 5th: since an IC can only join a unit in Reserve or by deploying in unit coherency with them, by the time an IC with Infiltrate has joined a unit without Infiltrate, it is too late. The unit technically gains Infiltrate, but it has already decided which of the three deployment methods it will use.

Addendum: At the time of writing, page 38's change to requiring only one model in the unit to have Infiltrate was still useful in some ways. There were (and still are) a few ways for a model to join a unit before deployment; being an Independent Character simply wasn't (and isn't) one of them. For instance, a wolf guard model (who doesn't have Infiltrate) can join a unit of wolf scouts (who do) prior to deployment. Additionally, an IC with Infiltrate can join a unit without Infiltrate in Reserve, and thus confer Outflank to the entire unit.

[Mkvenner]

Pg 39. " an independent charactr can begin the game already with a unit, ... if the unit is in reserve... by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined

Pg. 121 Deploying Infiltrators under deployment.

I really don't see the problem 39 says you can deploy with them and infiltrating is under deployment. Same if you want to outflank.

There is no loop hole to get player x not to be able to infiltrate with shadowsun and harlequins for example.

People are getting hung up on the wording and sequencing. Since Infiltrators have to be placed last during your deployment. People are arguing that the unit can't go with the independent character. If the transport section right before that is read, people would realize that an Independent Character joins the unit during deployment. The unit then gets Infiltrate due to the IC rules on p39 and Infiltrate's wording on pg38.

I think people take the wording too literally. Then again, GW might need to bullet point the sequencing and be explicit on who can do when and what.

[Kyban]

I originally thought that a unit couldn't join an infiltrating IC but upon closer inspection I changed my mind. The thing is, an IC has to join a unit as it deploys or in reserves but reading it carefully it seems your entire army starts in reserves. As you deploy your units from reserves, you can declare that the IC is joining a unit in reserves and that he and the unit are using the infiltrate rule they now have.

[Nabterayl]

I think the issue is that the transport section doesn't actually require that the IC have joined the unit prior to deployment. If an IC and a unit are both simultaneously deployed in the same transport, it is accurate to say that the IC "has joined" that unit. It is also accurate to say that the IC "has joined" the unit if the IC actually joined the unit prior to being deployed in the transport. Which is the intent is still unclear.

To borrow a point from the rules lawyer thread ... let us remember that these sorts of observations are simply observations. What one thinks the rules say is not a reliable indicator of how one plays.

EDIT:

I originally thought that a unit couldn't join an infiltrating IC but upon closer inspection I changed my mind. The thing is, an IC has to join a unit as it deploys or in reserves but reading it carefully it seems your entire army starts in reserves. As you deploy your units from reserves, you can declare that the IC is joining a unit in reserves and that he and the unit are using the infiltrate rule they now have.
Why do you think that a unit can Infiltrate from Reserve?

[chicop76]

People are getting hung up on the wording and sequencing. Since Infiltrators have to be placed last during your deployment. People are arguing that the unit can't go with the independent character. If the transport section right before that is read, people would realize that an Independent Character joins the unit during deployment. The unit then gets Infiltrate due to the IC rules on p39 and Infiltrate's wording on pg38.

I think people take the wording too literally. Then again, GW might need to bullet point the sequencing and be explicit on who can do when and what.

I see it as people trying to bend the rules in their favor is what I see. Ic deploys with unit. Infiltrate is a deployment. IC with infilttate allows units to be deployed as infiltrators.


I can see the problem and what you saying

1. You deploy forces: unit b has to deploy, but IC can't attach at this point so unit b deploys.
2. You infiltrate. Unit B which had to deploy is deployed and can't gain infiltrate since they had to deploy before infiltrate and you can't join unless on the board.

That is what I am getting.

[Nabterayl]

I would phrase it like this:

1. You deploy forces: Independent Character A and Unit B must each choose whether they (a) deploy, (b) Reserve, or (c) Infiltrate.
2. IC chooses Infiltrate. Unit B chooses deploy.
3. Unit B is deployed.
4. IC Infiltrates within 2" of Unit B. IC has now joined Unit B and thus granted Infiltrate to Unit B.
5. Unit B+IC choose Infiltrate. Opponent objects that you are deploying twice.

What I think they intended to write is this sequence:

1. IC joins Unit B.
2. You deploy forces: Unit B+IC choose Infiltrate.
3. Unit B+IC Infiltrate. IC must remain in unit coherency with B.

I think that's what they meant to write, and that's probably how I would play if I played with anybody who actually wanted to do this (as it happens, I don't, so the question is academic). That doesn't stop me from thinking that what they actually wrote was something else.

The trouble, in my opinion, is that the rules only allow an IC to join a unit when it is (a) with that unit in Reserve, (b) within 2" of that unit on the board, or (c) with that unit in a transport. None of those ways of joining a unit work for Infiltrating, though (a) works for Outflanking via Infiltrate.

[Kyban]

I would phrase it like this:

1. You deploy forces: Independent Character A and Unit B must each choose whether they (a) deploy, (b) Reserve, or (c) Infiltrate.
2. IC chooses Infiltrate. Unit B chooses deploy.
3. Unit B is deployed.
4. IC Infiltrates within 2" of Unit B. IC has now joined Unit B and thus granted Infiltrate to Unit B.
5. Unit B+IC choose Infiltrate. Opponent objects that you are deploying twice.

What I think they intended to write is this sequence:

1. IC joins Unit B.
2. You deploy forces: Unit B+IC choose Infiltrate.
3. Unit B+IC Infiltrate. IC must remain in unit coherency with B.

I think that's what they meant to write, and that's probably how I would play if I played with anybody who actually wanted to do this (as it happens, I don't, so the question is academic). That doesn't stop me from thinking that what they actually wrote was something else.

The trouble, in my opinion, is that the rules only allow an IC to join a unit when it is (a) with that unit in Reserve, (b) within 2" of that unit on the board, or (c) with that unit in a transport. None of those ways of joining a unit work for Infiltrating, though (a) works for Outflanking via Infiltrate.
If you read it carefully, your whole army starts in reserves and you deploy from there, anything left is kept in reserves. The IC can join the unit in reserves during deployment and declare that they are infiltrating. Everything works as written.

[Nabterayl]

I do wish that people would stop assuming that those who don't see what they see have simply failed to read the book carefully. What are the actual words you are reading that cause you to think that (a) your whole army starts in Reserves or that (b) a unit can Infiltrate from Reserves? I'm not doubting you, I just want to see your argument.

[Kyban]

I do wish that people would stop assuming that those who don't see what they see have simply failed to read the book carefully. What are the actual words you are reading that cause you to think that (a) your whole army starts in Reserves or that (b) a unit can Infiltrate from Reserves? I'm not doubting you, I just want to see your argument.
Didn't mean to imply you hadn't read it carefully, I've read through it pretty carefully several times and just picked up that implication.
They always refer to it as being 'kept' in reserves or 'left' in reserves. If this is the case then the IC can join a unit before it deploys since it is in reserve.

[40kGamer]

My dear fellow, there's no need for veiled personal attacks. Page 38 establishes that an entire unit can infiltrate if a single member of that unit can, we quite agree. Page 39 establishes that an independent character who has "joined" a unit counts as a member of that unit, we quite agree. It follows, therefore, that if an independent character with Infiltrate can join a unit prior to that unit's deployment, the unit so joined could infiltrate. We quite agree.

Where, though, is the rule stating that an independent character can join a unit prior to that unit's deployment? I thought it was on page 39, but I don't see it. I agree with Tynskel that the ability to join a unit prior to that unit's deployment is implicit in the case of a character such as Shrike, whose See, But Remain Unseen rule seems to require it. I don't think page 38 requires it, though. Do you? If so, on what grounds?

Shrike's rule in the SM codex also specifically states that he and his unit can infiltrate. I'd love to be able to infiltrate units by simply attaching an IC but I can't find the RAW to allow it.

[Mkvenner]

I see it as people trying to bend the rules in their favor is what I see. Ic deploys with unit. Infiltrate is a deployment. IC with infilttate allows units to be deployed as infiltrators.


I can see the problem and what you saying

1. You deploy forces: unit b has to deploy, but IC can't attach at this point so unit b deploys.
2. You infiltrate. Unit B which had to deploy is deployed and can't gain infiltrate since they had to deploy before infiltrate and you can't join unless on the board.

That is what I am getting.

Yes, that is exactly what people are saying. However, with the wording on ICs and transports (pg121) it clears up this issue by saying they can join together.

[40kGamer]

Yes, that is exactly what people are saying. However, with the wording on ICs and transports (pg121) it clears up this issue by saying they can join together.

The part I get hung up on is when it states an IC can join a unit during deployment by being placed in unit coherency with it. Given that units without infiltrate have to deploy before infiltrators this seems to imply that they can't benefit from the IC's infiltrate ability. I would prefer to be dead wrong on this as it has real potential.

[Nabterayl]

Yes, that is exactly what people are saying. However, with the wording on ICs and transports (pg121) it clears up this issue by saying they can join together.
I don't really think it does. "[P]lus any Independent Characters that have joined the unit" doesn't imply that the IC joined the unit prior to being deployed in the transport. That is only one of the things it could imply. My analysis of the problem is the same as 40kGamer's.

EDIT: Unless Kyban is right. I think it's an ingenious observation, Kyban. Something feels weird about it to me, but I can't articulate anything solid right now.

[Mkvenner]

The part I get hung up on is when it states an IC can join a unit during deployment by being placed in unit coherency with it. Given that units without infiltrate have to deploy before infiltrators this seems to imply that they can't benefit from the IC's infiltrate ability. I would prefer to be dead wrong on this as it has real potential.

All that is implying is, that he just needs to be within 2" to be counted as deployed with the unit. It's basically saying he has to be in unit coherency if he is being deployed with the unit. That's all. If you keep reading into it, yeah, I can see where you are coming from. It's just telling you how a character joins a unit.

[40kGamer]

All that is implying is, that he just needs to be within 2" to be counted as deployed with the unit. It's basically saying he has to be in unit coherency if he is being deployed with the unit. That's all. If you keep reading into it, yeah, I can see where you are coming from. It's just telling you how a character joins a unit.

Definitely could be overthinking it... I'm going to reread all the sections again tonight. This issue is driving me more nuts than usual! :p

[Mkvenner]

Definitely could be overthinking it... I'm going to reread all the sections again tonight. This issue is driving me more nuts than usual! :p

If you like I could put that little blurb up. I just think people are overthinking the actual rules.

[40kGamer]

If you like I could put that little blurb up. I just think people are overthinking the actual rules.

That would be great! I'd love to get comfortable with which way this should go. :)

[Mkvenner]

On pg 121.

The Deploy forces specifically states that all of your army is to be deployed that is not in Reserves with Infiltrators and Scouts going last.

The blurb with Transport vehicles reads as such.

"Units can be deployed in Transport vehicles if you wish- simply declare to your opponent which units are embarked where as part of your deployment. However, if a unit is Dedicated Transport only the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined the units) can deploy within it. After the game begins, other units can embark and disembark as normal (see page 79)."

The bolded part is super important because that is where it mentions how ICs are to join units in transports. This coincides with the Infiltrators.

Deploying Infiltrators and Scouts:

"The sequence for Infiltrators and Scouts is the same in all Eternal War missions. First, both players deploy their forces (apart from an units kept as reserve or that choose to use their Infiltrate special rule). When both players have deployed their main force, then they deploy their Infiltrators (as described on page 38). Finally, they can redeploy units the Scout special rule."

Following that is a blurb on fortifications, but that is not necessary. We then meander over to page 38 for Infiltrate. On reading it only notes that an IC that does not have Infiltrate can not join a unit of Infiltrators. This implies that if an Independent character did and another unit didn't he would be able to deploy with a unit.

Page 39 states, "An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in reserve, by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined." All this is saying is that if an IC joins a unit he has to be in unit coherency, otherwise players would say he doesn't have to be within 2" and can act independently. It's to stop any misinterpretation of the rules. Not limit the deployment of the character.

Then there is a blurb still on page 39 farther into the entry that states, " While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters." If being deployed with a unit, they can choose to Infiltrate. Infiltrate states that if one model in the unit has it, they all have it. So the character after reading the blurb I quoted in this paragraph allows a unit he is deployed with to Infiltrate so long as he, or both of them have Infiltrate.

People are just over thinking the issue and reading into rules too hard.

[40kGamer]

I ran this by the local group and so far they're sticking with no to infiltrate a unit and yes to join a unit in reserve and give it outflank... shot emails to a couple TO's and asked for a ruling on how they will treat this at the upcoming events this year. Can't seem to find a solid ground with this! :confused:

[Magpie]

It's really just another of these naff questions.

An IC joins a unit by deploying with it, I see that there might be a "timing issue" as to when a unit is deployed, but really given the Infiltrate rule only applies at the deployment phase I think it's pretty obvious what the intent is.

[Mkvenner]

I ran this by the local group and so far they're sticking with no to infiltrate a unit and yes to join a unit in reserve and give it outflank... shot emails to a couple TO's and asked for a ruling on how they will treat this at the upcoming events this year. Can't seem to find a solid ground with this! :confused:

It's not a big deal if that's how they want to handle it. The book may not be crystal clear, but the intent is.

[40kGamer]

It's not a big deal if that's how they want to handle it. The book may not be crystal clear, but the intent is.

And the funny thing is that it's not really going to come up that often or even be a game changer. Oh well... :rolleyes:

[Mkvenner]

And the funny thing is that it's not really going to come up that often or even be a game changer. Oh well... :rolleyes:

You can show them when the revised FAQ comes out. (;

In the meantime I'll just be using a Farseer/Jetseer to be civil.