High Elves - What're your opinions one month in?

[pgarfunkle]

I was wondering what folks opinions on the new army book were one month or so in?

My regular opponent plays with High Elves but we haven't managed to get a game in for a while and I wondered what people who had played with the army thought of them since the release?

[Learn2Eel]

They are a fun, well-balanced army. Nothing more, nothing less. It has fantastic internal balance with only one magic item ruining their chances for "best balanced Warhammer Fantasy" army book in my opinion - the infamous Banner of the World Dragon. Truly, aside from maybe the Space Marine codex, it is easily Ward's best work. About the only thing they really struggle against is massed monsters/monstrous cavalry as they lack war machines other than Repeater Bolt Throwers.

[Chronowraith]

They are a fun, well-balanced army. Nothing more, nothing less. It has fantastic internal balance with only one magic item ruining their chances for "best balanced Warhammer Fantasy" army book in my opinion - the infamous Banner of the World Dragon. Truly, aside from maybe the Space Marine codex, it is easily Ward's best work. About the only thing they really struggle against is massed monsters/monstrous cavalry as they lack war machines other than Repeater Bolt Throwers.

Agreed. They are an extremely well balanced army and proof that Matt Ward knows how to write a Fantasy Army Book.

While they certainly lack war machines, I wouldn't say they struggle with monsters/monstrous cav. Several of the best units in the book have great weapons at initiative. Throw in fighting in extra ranks and in my experience they chew through monsters pretty admirably. Nonetheless, they certainly don't have EZ-MODE cannons like many other races.

[Kirsten]

I am absolutely loving them so far, had a few games, one convincing win over dwarfs, one close defeat against wood elves. I really don't see the fuss about the banner of the world dragon. handy enough if you know you are going to be facing a magic heavy army, but it is hardly game breaking. I am not sold on the bolt throwers personally, though I did mistakenly think they were strength 5, not 6. For the price of a few bolt throwers though I think I would rather have some sisters of avelorn, BS5 and S4 make them far more useful in my opinion. Monsters can be an issue, the game I lost my opponent had a treeman and a lord on a dragon, and I failed to wound them over and over again. Mainly it was down to rolls, both targets survived far more shots than they should have, and the treeman clung to one wound and killed nine sea guard in one round. But they can be a real issue if you can't get a decent line of sight. dragons obviously are going to charge you by and large, not the other way round, and between all their different forms of attacks they can take out a unit on their own before you get much chance to respond.
The biggest problem the elves have is with any attack that you can't actually prevent, like the anvil of doom which doesn't need range, line of sight etc. and just causes 2d6 hits, or the beastmen special character that can wound enemies with a big radius. light armoured expensive elves can't really afford to take those kinds of hits.

[Chronowraith]

With Banner of the World Dragon I've found it's well worth it's points but not for the traditional reasons. Sure, it will protect from Fireballs, and other harmful spells, but it's biggest use is to protect against miscasts. All of those miscast results are magic and thus the BotWD gives HE the best defense against those wounds (other effects still apply unfortunately). Of course, I run a HE light council with Alarial, so most of my mages are in the same unit and protected, but it's still very useful for the point cost.

I agree about the Sisters... they are pretty amazing although I wish they could have their own banner.

[Kirsten]

yeah, I would be interested to see whether or not that use of the banner gets FAQd for or against.

[pgarfunkle]

Hi folks thanks for all the responses, I'm looking forward to face off against them!

What are your favourite units so far, not specifically the toughest or most competitive but those which are the most fun or entertaining you have found?

I love the phoenixes and the look of the sky chariot and since I cannot field them look forward to shooting them down, as many times as necessary it sounds like where the phoenix are concerned lol :D

[Learn2Eel]

I only had one game using her but I found Alarielle to be quite fun. Her sheer number of special rules confounded my opponents, and the fact that she wiped out a 400-500+ point unit entirely on the first turn makes her an automatic inclusion in my annual hobby Hall of Fame :) The only other units I can think of having such an impact in their debut game for me were my Heldrake, my Defiler, my Hive Tyrants and my Tervigons.

On that (unrelated) note, they achieved this by doing the following;
1) The Heldrake single-handedly wiped out three entire Tactical Squads if memory serves correctly. Quite the introduction.
2) The Defiler destroyed a Land Raider Crusader, ripped an Emperor's Champion apart, and reaved half a squad of Sword Brethren.
3) My first flying Hive Tyrant started off in a 500 point game and, with its pair of brain leech devourers, annihilated well over half the enemy force*.
3) The Tervigons (all three of them in varying combinations) dominated each game they played in right from the get go. It almost doesn't matter what else I bring.

*That game was funny. My opponent had Scout Bikers, Scouts, and that Forge World character that makes Lightning Claw Assault Terminators troops followed by such a squad. At 500 points, I brought a Tervigon, a brood of Termagants, and a flying Hive Tyrant kitted out. I will say with respect that my opponent never once complained or gave up!

[LeeW]

i want to face these new elves with my warriors of chaos army just to see how they deal with 6 skullcrushers and a lord in the same unit, not many units out there that have killed this unit as of yet (only been wiped out twice i think and that was by an over powered tomb kings army with 6 wizards in a 2400pt game(i don't field sorcerors as my army is khorne))

[Kirsten]

couple of bolthrowers will sort them out ;)

[LeeW]

couple of bolthrowers will sort them out ;)

will only kill 1-2 (2s to wound if firing single shot then you need to roll a 5 or 6 (D3) to kill outright) or multi shot it'll be 4s can be done but hard, i'll be in the elves front line in turn 2 plus remember that you can't panic them as they are frenzied and with the banner i gave them they can't lose their frenzy lol

[Learn2Eel]

Ok, six Skullcrushers with a Juggernaught mounted Lord kitted out to a decent degree will probably be around 700-900 points, give or take. For that same cost, the High Elf player can take a White Lion horde with the Banner of the World Dragon, with a Frostheart Phoenix or two thrown in for good measure. Simply put, it will beat the Skullcrusher unit every single time provided you did the usual and took ensorcelled weapons as well as a magic weapon on the Lord. Also, the Skullcrushers really aren't much faster than the White Lions either, and with so much chaff available to High Elves now, they can out-deploy you pretty easily.

710 points gets you one Frostheart and thirty White Lions, full command with the Banner of the World Dragon. Buh-bye Skullcrushers. Funnily enough, the Frostheart isn't even needed if your guys all have magic attacks (and the Juggernaughts certainly do). In fact, assuming that is the case (and it usually is) I would instead take 50 White Lions with the BotWD. My death star wins by a ridiculous amount; your base size means most of the horde gets to attack, and with four ranks fighting, all those Strength six attacks will utterly cleave through the hapless Skullcrushers.

Seriously though, if High Elves need to counter something that puts out high Strength non-magical attacks, Frosthearts are the best problem solvers you can find.
Oh, and just an FYI if you were curious; that White Lion death-star is very common competitively. If you have Daemons and know you are playing a High Elf player and vice-versa, make sure to ask them not to use the BotWD.

Don't get me wrong though, Skullcrushers are amongst the best combat units in the game and a Chaos Lord on a Juggernaught is brutal as hell. Still, most armies do have natural counters to them.

[Chronowraith]

As Learn2Eel pointed out, High Elves will stomp all over Skullcrushers in a competitve environment. In a competitive environmen, skullcrushers almost always have ensorcelled weapons. Juggers have daemonic attacks and thus are also magic attacks. MOST competitive high elf armies will have white lions and many white lion units will have BotWD. Even without the banner, I'd still put money on the white lions. That many S6 attacks will ruin the skullcrushers before the juggers get to attack (and 30 white lions can handle the simultaneous attacks from the riders pretty well).

Personally, I'd handle it a little differently. I'd take lore of death on my mages to ensure that I get Doom & Darkness. I'd keep Doom and Darkness up on the skullcrushers and just lead them around the battle with great eagles. Hurrah for Frenzy! At the same time I'd be casting Spirit Leech, Fate of Bjuna, etc to snipe the Lord out of the unit. Maybe that's just because I like to avoid obvious tactics... but the White Lions + BotWD would be far more reliable.

[LeeW]

Ok, six Skullcrushers with a Juggernaught mounted Lord kitted out to a decent degree will probably be around 700-900 points, give or take. For that same cost, the High Elf player can take a White Lion horde with the Banner of the World Dragon, with a Frostheart Phoenix or two thrown in for good measure. Simply put, it will beat the Skullcrusher unit every single time provided you did the usual and took ensorcelled weapons as well as a magic weapon on the Lord. Also, the Skullcrushers really aren't much faster than the White Lions either, and with so much chaff available to High Elves now, they can out-deploy you pretty easily.

710 points gets you one Frostheart and thirty White Lions, full command with the Banner of the World Dragon. Buh-bye Skullcrushers. Funnily enough, the Frostheart isn't even needed if your guys all have magic attacks (and the Juggernaughts certainly do). In fact, assuming that is the case (and it usually is) I would instead take 50 White Lions with the BotWD. My death star wins by a ridiculous amount; your base size means most of the horde gets to attack, and with four ranks fighting, all those Strength six attacks will utterly cleave through the hapless Skullcrushers.

Seriously though, if High Elves need to counter something that puts out high Strength non-magical attacks, Frosthearts are the best problem solvers you can find.
Oh, and just an FYI if you were curious; that White Lion death-star is very common competitively. If you have Daemons and know you are playing a High Elf player and vice-versa, make sure to ask them not to use the BotWD.

Don't get me wrong though, Skullcrushers are amongst the best combat units in the game and a Chaos Lord on a Juggernaught is brutal as hell. Still, most armies do have natural counters to them.

good point but played against lizardmen a couple of months ago who had two horde units of lizards (1 up from skinks)(also quite good in combat and not likely to break and run like everything else(coldblooded is a bane to me)) 1 of which was temple gaurd with a lv4 slann priest, both charged the skullcrushers, he blostered their WS so he was hitting on 3s and i was hitting on 6s also he casted a spell to strike first he managed to kill 3 of them before i wiped them out including his pesky slann priest who was killed in a challange (bloody 2+ ward save lol)

i know people like to play competively and all but the 1 thing i hate is power gamers (not saying you are btw)this is why i don't play tornies and if i do i tend to field balanced armies 6 juggers are only baught out for big games (2000pts or more) normally only have 3 in the army. and yes i always use enscrolled weapons as i find lances are pointless

[Learn2Eel]

Trust me, those units against Skullcrushers simply don't compare to facing White Lions with the Banner of the World Dragon. See, you can still get casualties through with your Stomps, and your Chaos Lord would at least be hitting on fours or fives. When you do hit, it sticks. Against White Lions, every single one of them you will hit on a 4+ with Skullies, wound on 2+ and I get a 2+ ward save against every single one of your attacks, including the stomps from your Juggernaughts. Taken in a horde, with natural Stubborn, and you simply will not beat them when every single one dishes out a WS5 I5 S6 attack. Did I mention their smaller base size, fighting in three/four ranks and easy access to buffs?

To be brutally honest mate, if you are using six Skullcrushers at 2000 points with a Juggernaught mounted Lord, you can't really accuse anyone of being a power gamer - not that I am saying you are, mind. They are taken by almost every single Warriors of Chaos player competitively without fail for a good reason. Just poking fun here, but why do you think they run over almost everything you throw them at? :p
Funnily enough, two of my friends told me (likely as a scare move) that they were both getting units of Skullcrushers with lances and had been planning on doing so for a while. They told me this just as I told them about the Banner of the World Dragon. Lucky for them, I didn't call them out on their lies and I'm moving on to Vampires anyway. No one with any sense of sanity takes lances on either Chaos Knights or Skullcrushers competitively, even if you expect to see the Banner of the World Dragon.

[LeeW]

even with three skullcrushers theyve rolled over everything and im the only 1 in the store that takes them and ive only used 6 once (and i even asked if he minded if i did lol)haven't been able to play lately as i work away from home. would love to play against to elves and would love to start to using them again as they were the first army i started with

[Archon Charybdis]

I just faced a squad of 4 Skullcrushers with BSB the other day with a squad of 21 White Lions with the BoWD, and it ended up being a fairly handy win for me. The only tricky part of it for me was I rather idiotically accepted the challenge from his BSB with my BSB, and his S5 non-magical mount kicked him to death.

[Chronowraith]

If he was on a juggernaut then you should have won. Juggers have daemonic attacks which are magical. If he was on a non-daemonic mount then, yes... lesson learned I hope. :-)

[Archon Charybdis]

If he was on a juggernaut then you should have won. Juggers have daemonic attacks which are magical. If he was on a non-daemonic mount then, yes... lesson learned I hope. :-)

It was modeled as a horse, and my opponent was aware that I had the 2++ against magical attacks so I'm fairly certain it was not a Juggernaut; I just didn't realize WoC mounts could be so damn strong. Though, it still gave my BSB 6+ armor and the 4++ parry from shield of the Merwyrm, so he did soak a fair number of wounds that would've killed White Lions instead.

But yeah, after that tournament my record with the new High Elves is 5 for 6, so I'm feeling fairly good about them. Still not 100% sold on High Magic, even though I really want to be. I've seen it said elsewhere and I agree, it has some really nice spells, but none of them solve the problems that HE really have like 1+ armor saves and Monstrous Infantry. Shadow still seems like the biggest problem solver for us between Okkams and the debuffs.

[Chronowraith]

A standard ChaosSteed only has 1 attack at WS3, S4. The only mounts with S5 in the entire book are Juggernauts, Manticores, and Daemonic Mounts. I am 100% positive you would know if you were fighting against a manticore. Both of the other mounts have daemonic attacks and thus are magical.

Quick take-away... your BSB should have won the challenge without taking a wound (unless the Chaos BSB did not have a magic weapon).

I agree on the magic front though. High Magic is GREAT... but compared to book lores, primarily Shadow, it's still lacking. Shadow is my first go-to Lore followed equally by Death, Life, and High magic. It all depends on what I want to do.

[Archon Charybdis]

Then yeah, it sounds like I got (I think inadvertently) cheated. Even still, I won the combat and won the game overall. Surprisingly the BoWD was a much bigger deal against the WoC player than it was against Daemons, where the only unit my WLs fought was a bunch of Pink Horrors holding the Watchtower.

[Chronowraith]

I didn't mean to imply that your opponent purposefully cheated you. Most players forget that the daemonic mount does in fact do daemonic (magical) attacks. Hell, I do and Warriors of Chaos are my second largest army.

BotWD is pretty unfair in watchtower versus daemons. Just have your unit with the banner take the watchtower and there really isn't much a daemon player can do to get your out of there.

[Learn2Eel]

Hell, even their stomps are magical!