Illic fun

[legalsmash]

We should discuss this character as to tactics. It appears that he helps us make a credible alaitoc list and if allowed he could be fun in killteam missions.
Now I just got mine out of package trimmed and washed it... havent got him on table yet but has anyone gotten him in a match yet? If so what are your impressions thus far

[jifel]

I havent used or faced him, but what I'm hearing is people attaching random squads to get really close and mess things up. I'm pretty sure thats not allowed unless the unit has Infiltrate, but its being proposed as both ways.

[DarkLink]

Right now, you can't infiltrate.

You can inflitrate as long as one model in the unit has the rule.

But. In order to join a unit, the independent character must either be deployed normally, in coherency with the unit (preventing you from infiltrating), or placed in reserves with the unit (also preventing you from infiltrating). The only options you have for actually attaching a character to a unit precludes infiltrating.

[daboarder]

Right now, you can't infiltrate.

You can inflitrate as long as one model in the unit has the rule.

But. In order to join a unit, the independent character must either be deployed normally, in coherency with the unit (preventing you from infiltrating), or placed in reserves with the unit (also preventing you from infiltrating). The only options you have for actually attaching a character to a unit precludes infiltrating.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, dumbest argument ever.

[DarkLink]

This problem actually came up in 5th ed, because the rules worked similarly enough. They had to FAQ it, but that FAQ went away when 6th came out so we'll have to wait again.

[Tyrendian]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, dumbest argument ever.

concerning infiltrate itself, i'd aggree with you - but concerning illic, he's got a point... the unit he joins (whether it has infiltrate itself or not) would still have to adhere to the normal rules for keeping your distance, and Illic would just be allowed to be a little bit closer to the enemy than the usual 12"/18" - just the distance closer that coherency allows him to. at least, that's how I see it... worthy of an FAQ though - let's hope they hurry up...

Also, what do we think about his Pathfinders? I think the upgrade is just too expensive considering they are still bog normal snipers when it comes to actually killing stuff... (i.e. 33% of their shots actually wound, one of these being rending... never going to make back the insane amount of points it costs...)

[daboarder]

I agree with that, only illic gets the Anywhere infiltrate.

[Carstens]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, dumbest argument ever.

That's like saying; "2+1x3 = 5 is stupid! It should be = 9." It's a simple matter of when, what happens.

[Serenapth]

Actually using BODMAS multiplication comes before addition so your answer would be 5, 3x1 followed by +2. Not that this changes the discussion.

In a SW army if a character takes saga of the hunter, he and any unit he joins gets outflank etc, so a rule on a character can transfer. So i would say that a unit he joins before deployment would have the infiltrate anywhere. But as you say its when something happens!!!! That makes a rule work or not.

Forgot to say, what a cracking model.... Just had to get one on release day.

[daboarder]

That's like saying; "2+1x3 = 5 is stupid! It should be = 9." It's a simple matter of when, what happens.

Sorry mate this is a notoriously soft rules set written in English, not the hard and fast rules that govern mathematics. Go *&%$ wave somewhere else.

for example, the fact that infiltrate is one of the IC transferable rules gives far more insight into its intended application than a hiccup in the deployment rules.

[Carstens]

Sorry mate this is a notoriously soft rules set written in English, not the hard and fast rules that govern mathematics. Go *&%$ wave somewhere else.

for example, the fact that infiltrate is one of the IC transferable rules gives far more insight into its intended application than a hiccup in the deployment rules.

Not really that just tells us that an IC with infiltrate can give outflanking to the unit he joins.

[eris]

Bizarrely, you could probably use Eldrad and Illic; deploy Illic with any unit and then infiltrate them (outside 12"-18") when using Eldrad's re-deploy ability. ;)

[chicop76]

Sorry mate this is a notoriously soft rules set written in English, not the hard and fast rules that govern mathematics. Go *&%$ wave somewhere else.

for example, the fact that infiltrate is one of the IC transferable rules gives far more insight into its intended application than a hiccup in the deployment rules.


I thought 2 + 2 = to 22 right matey. If you put 2 up front and 2 in the back it's 22. Although some argue that it's 4.

If you character have infiltrate and joins a squad they all will be able to infiltrate. The problem is he can ifiltrate 1" away from a enemy model. It just says his infiltrate which could also be usable by other units. Which can be nasty dropping of wraith models that can flame at strength 4 ap 1.

When people start doing the good old flamers routine again it will be FAQed saying yes or no.

My solution is to enjoy the game cause it's fun and roll on it to see if you or can't do it before the game starts. I do the same with mc's and multi's on overwatch.

Well good day matey.

[eris]

You clearly can't infiltrate any other unit that Illic within the 12"-18" set out in the infiltrate rule.

Walker of the Hidden Path does 2 things. 1stly it gives Illic Infiltrate and 2ndly it lets him deploy ignoring the proximity restriction when infiltrating.
The Infiltrate rules says that if a single model has infiltrate, the unit may infiltrate, but with x restrictions.
Since Illic has Infiltrate, the unit he is with may infiltrate.
However, ignoring the proximity restriction is not part of Infiltrate, it's part of Walker of the Hidden Path.
Absolutely nothing in the Walker of the Hidden Path rule states that the unit gains the Walker of the Hidden Path rule which they would need to ignore the proximity rule.

It's very clear and there's zero need for an FAQ. Well maybe if the world is full of idiots who ignore what is clearly written in front of them, and if that's the case please excuse me i need to start work on my jetpack.

[legalsmash]

So... apparently it turned into algebra class. Jeez.

I'm hoping to get him on the table sometime this upcoming month with a pathfinder force and see how it goes.

Anyone playing games with the army yet?

[DrWobbles]

Right now, you can't infiltrate.

You can inflitrate as long as one model in the unit has the rule.

But. In order to join a unit, the independent character must either be deployed normally, in coherency with the unit (preventing you from infiltrating), or placed in reserves with the unit (also preventing you from infiltrating). The only options you have for actually attaching a character to a unit precludes infiltrating.

"an independent character can begin the game already with a unit..." -40k rule book pg. 39.

[DarkLink]

How about you quote the whole rule:


An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit,either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in
reserve) by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined.

I've bolded the relevant parts that you've completely ignored. Funny how ignoring two thirds of a rule can significantly change how it functions. In the latter case of reserves, you obviously can't infiltrate because you're in reserves. In the former case, the IC doesn't join the unit to grant Infiltrate until after you've placed them on the table, meaning you can't attach the IC to the unit in order to grant Infiltrate and then deploy them via Infiltrate.

Anyways, GW just likes to write stupid rules.

[DrWobbles]

I posted this in the rules thread but here it is anyway...

sigh...

nowhere does the word 'normally' show up. "an independent character can begin the game already with a unit, either by by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in reserve, by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined." that's the full sentence. Infiltrators are still 'deployed' just like other units only a little later.

"Being deployed in unit coherency" does not mean one unit must be deployed then deploy your independent character. they are deployed simultaneously and in unit coherency.

"while an independent character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes..."

Does the IC have infiltrate? yes.

Can the IC begin the game already with a unit? yes.

Does a unit gain the infiltrators rule if at least one model has this rule? yes.

Can the unit infiltrate? YES.

[DarkLink]

Doesn't really matter if normally is there or not, actually. The point is, the IC isn't part of the squad to grant Infiltrate until it's too late to actually Infiltrate. The IC doesn't join the squad until after they've been placed on the board, and since the IC isn't part of the squad yet the squad doesn't have Infiltrate to be held back and deployed later with the IC to get Infiltrate. Cart before the horse.

[Learn2Eel]

I'm curious about this scenario; say your meta allows for Infiltrating/non-Infiltrating independent characters to join non-Infiltrating/Infiltrating units when they Infiltrate (a lot of areas play it this way). Would Illic's special version apply to the unit?

[daboarder]

still unlikely as his particular rule is non-transferable. it only ever states that "he" may ignore the restriction.

[Bitrider]

Doesn't really matter if normally is there or not, actually. The point is, the IC isn't part of the squad to grant Infiltrate until it's too late to actually Infiltrate. The IC doesn't join the squad until after they've been placed on the board, and since the IC isn't part of the squad yet the squad doesn't have Infiltrate to be held back and deployed later with the IC to get Infiltrate. Cart before the horse.

DL is correct here.


"Being deployed in unit coherency" does not mean one unit must be deployed then deploy your independent character. they are deployed simultaneously and in unit coherency.

DrWobbles logic is flawed here.

[DrWobbles]

@link: Do you deploy your ICs after all your other units have been deployed? no, you deploy them simultaneously with the unit they have joined before the game begins.

NOWHERE does it say a unit must be deployed first and only then can an IC join them.

@bitrider: You need to show me why i'm wrong rather than stating a baseless opinion.

[rle68]

had the issue come up today and the eldar player went bat crap crazy when he tried to infiltrate illic on my wolves and i told him he couldnt.. he grabbed his codex and was screaming when i said i knew what his abilities were but chooser of the slain prevents infiltration within 18" of the marker.. denying a large section of where he wanted to infiltrate...

[DarkLink]

@link: Do you deploy your ICs after all your other units have been deployed? no, you deploy them simultaneously with the unit they have joined before the game begins.


You're misunderstanding. Step by step:

Start deployment, no one is deployed yet, no ICs are attached yet.

Deploy non-infiltrators, and declare reserves. Your IC isn't attached to a squad yet, so no one gets infiltrate. You have to deploy all non-infiltrators/reserves, forcing you to deploy the squad which hasn't received infiltrate yet because the IC hasn't joined them yet.

Move on to deploying infiltrators, once . Your infiltrating IC isn't attached yet, and thus doesn't grant the squad infiltrate yet, meaning you had to have already deployed the squad because they don't have infiltrate. Since the squad is already deployed without infiltrate, and you can't redeploy units,



The squad doesn't get infiltrate until after it's physically on the board. Because you can't hold back on deploying the squad to the infiltration deployment phase, you're forced to deploy the squad during regular deployment because they don't have infiltrate until after they've been placed. You can chose to deploy the IC at the same time, place him in coherency, and attach him to the squad, but then you're wasting infiltrate. Or you can hold the IC back to the infiltration deployment phase, but at that point he's left the squad behind and again the rule goes to waste.


To put it even more simply, the squad can't get infiltrate until after being placed, but the infiltration deployment rules require you to have infiltrate before you place the models in order to actually infiltrate.





Now, you can fudge the rules a little bit to allow the IC to grant infiltrate before joining a squad, just don't pretend that that is the way the rules work.

[Warpspider89]

Bizarrely, you could probably use Eldrad and Illic; deploy Illic with any unit and then infiltrate them (outside 12"-18") when using Eldrad's re-deploy ability. ;)

Interesting proposition! I'll look this up when I get back home.

[DarkLink]

That's actually pretty funny. Eldrad's rule does prevent even infiltrators from going outside your deployment zone, though.

[Warpspider89]

That's actually pretty funny. Eldrad's rule does prevent even infiltrators from going outside your deployment zone, though.

First thing I looked up when I got home haha sadface at infiltrate basically being useless.

[DrWobbles]

Now, you can fudge the rules a little bit to allow the IC to grant infiltrate before joining a squad, just don't pretend that that is the way the rules work.

You are confused. Sometime during your gaming you decided there was a an extra step in deployment when you attach characters to units. There is not.

ICs can begin the game with a unit. This game begins when you decide on a point cost and start selecting your forces. You're confusing the mechanic to show an IC is attached to a unit as some cart/horse/donkey step process. there is no process other than deploying in your deployment zone, deploying infiltrators (including units with IC infiltrators), and redeploying scouts.

ICs are not joining units during deployment, they begin the game that way. This is not a movement phase.

[daboarder]

Alright rules time:


An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit,
either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in
reserve) by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined.

This says we begin by "deploying" with a unit so we go see what the deployment rules say.


The sequence for Infiltrators and Scouts is the same in all
Eternal War missions. First, both players deploy their forces
(apart from any units left kept as Reserves or that chose to use
their Infiltrate special rule).

Given the wording as transferable and the fact that deployment refers to the broad "subphase" of the game, not just the placement of units on the board, its pretty clear what is intended by GW.

The IC begins the game with the unit, as such during "deployment" the unit has the infiltrate special rule and is therefore eligible to use it.

[Kyban]

I think Illic can deploy in cc, I didn't find anything that prevented it when I checked earlier. The only restriction is that he can't move to within 1" but deployment isn't moving... Has anyone found anything to prevent this?

[Alqualonde]

Sorry mate this is a notoriously soft rules set written in English, not the hard and fast rules that govern mathematics. Go *&%$ wave somewhere else.

for example, the fact that infiltrate is one of the IC transferable rules gives far more insight into its intended application than a hiccup in the deployment rules.

+1

[zenBen]

An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit,
either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in
reserve, by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined.

In the 'no' camp who argue that Infiltrate cannot be granted by an IC, the main foundation of the argument rests on interpreting this rule to mean a player cannot deploy the non-Infiltrate unit with the Infiltrate IC already attached. The important part is the first two clauses of the sentence, separated by a comma and preceding the word 'or'.
But the hermeneutics of the sentence do not allow such an easy interpretation. Within the first two clauses, the act of 'being deployed in unit coherency' may refer to one of two states occurring before the comma: beginning the game, or being with (joining) a unit.
In the first reading, 'being deployed in unit coherency' permits the unit with joined IC to be deployed; in the second reading, 'being deployed in unit coherency' describes how to get the unit and IC to be joined. I suppose the reading you choose depends on whether you consider the joining of the unit and IC to be a state or a process.

So sadly, the rule allows either interpretation from the two sides debating this.

[eris]

So sadly, the rule allows either interpretation from the two sides debating this.

Which kind of leaves us with using 'logical conclusion' from other rules.

The opening line of Infiltrate is.. "Units that contain at least one model with this special rule.."
Is there any such unit we're aware of in which only 1 model has infiltrate? Or can this wording only possibly refer to an IC joining a unit without infiltrate?

[G00dySmiley]

i've been reading this debate on multiple forums from dakka dakka , here, darkcity, and bolter/chainsword seems the evidence points to yes you can in fac tinfiltrate in with Illic, until the FAQ it anyway either direction... still up for debate is if the usr infiltrate is used of Illic's special infiltrate though

[Warpspider89]

i've been reading this debate on multiple forums from dakka dakka , here, darkcity, and bolter/chainsword seems the evidence points to yes you can in fac tinfiltrate in with Illic, until the FAQ it anyway either direction... still up for debate is if the usr infiltrate is used of Illic's special infiltrate though

I've been finding the opposite actually... I just hope they FAQ it and get it over with. I want to infiltrate some D-Cannons with Illic and abuse his split fire rule!

[Kirsten]

no reason to assume infiltrate cannot be given to a squad.
Infiltrate: 'Units that contain at least one model with this special rule(etc.)'
Independent Character: 'an independent character can begin the game already with a unit' 'While an independent character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes'
It is not unheard of, Shrike for example can infiltrate with any unit he is joined to as clearly stated in his entry, it is not implausible to think other characters can do it. Shrike's rule is worded:
'Shrike (and models in his squad) benefit from the infiltrate special rule' if characters joined units the way you suggest, then it would prevent him from actually joining a unit to infiltrate, but that is clearly what he does.

[Power Klawz]

Judging by the obvious intent of the rules you can give infiltrate to units with an infiltrating IC. There's no hard and fast order of operations stated in deployment, its all very fuzzy. Assuming that its diced up into these little unwritten phases doesn't make any sense. You deploy the unit as infiltrators at the same time, otherwise the wording on the infiltrate special rule makes absolutely no sense.

However I don't think its intended for illic to be able to bestow his special infiltration rule to others, as its not stated in his specific special rule that the reduced range restrictions are transferable, as such I'd assume that he can infiltrate normally with any unit like any infiltrating IC or he can go solo and infiltrate his special way, one or the other.

Could really use a FAQ though since intent is so subjective.

[Kirsten]

I haven't read the book but it was explained to me that he can pretty much deploy anywhere he wants. I would say in this instance he shouldn't have a unit with him if deployed up close and personal, because some of the eldar shooting units deployed in your face turn one would be pretty horrendous to deal with

[thecactusman17]

An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit,either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in
reserve) by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined.

Nothing here says you can't deploy a model and its unit as part of the Infiltration so long as the models are in unit coherency. All deployment happens simultaneously aside from infiltrate. There is nothing that says that infiltration is not a perfectly normal part of deployment. It would be an illegal deployment to deploy the units without infiltrate after normal deployment, but as soon as they all hit the table together in unit coherency it becomes 100% legitimate because at the time they are deployed, they have the infiltrate special rule. And THAT is the most important part regardless of whether or not they have the rule specifically in their profile.

Just remember, it only says that models with the infiltrate special rule may deploy after other deployments. It doesn't state that they must have the infiltrate at all times, just during the infiltration stage of deployment.

[rle68]

i am a bit confused as to why anyone questions this.. rangers have infiltrate already.. you can attach illic to the squad during infiltrate but they can not use his special ability.. as it does say he gets it and no mention of the squad...

so why all the contention about letting them infiltrate together under normal rules?

[Kirsten]

the question is whether or not he can join a unit other than rangers that don't themselves have infiltrate.

[thecactusman17]

People are infiltrating other units. Wraithguard, for example, which will be in perfect range for their guns, or Dark Reapers that can place themselves so that the opponent does not get a cover save, or fire dragons with a perfect shot against Land Raiders in the enemy deployment zone. Even 20 Guardians double tapping a horde of Terminators on turn 1 with their pseudo-rending.

Illic Nightspear is a frightening prospect because he is the ultimate delivery mechanism. Deploy anywhere and the unit gets shrouded in the enemy backfield while awaiting the first shooting phase. 140 points of pure "screw you and all your deployment plans."

Of course, it's the sort of shakeup that Eldar SHOULD have but that GW will probably remove because nobody should ever be able to get an advantage over Space Marines, especially of the Ultramarine variety.

Personally, I think this guy will prove most interesting with some of the units available to Dark Eldar. For example, he's the ultimate delivery mechanism for a webway portal and may finally make that item functional in a few critical ways. Didn't like dealing with those Kabalite Warriors all the way in the back with their Aegis and quad gun? No problem, we'll bring them straight to you in rapid fire range. And with Beastmasters or Incubi and Baron Sathonyx, he's going to rock some face.

[daboarder]

...and yet he is no worse than shrike....

if you can be seen by any enemy unit on the board you must be 18' away from the nearest one, thats not that hard.

[Kirsten]

well you can be inside buildings and 12" away which is a reasonable possibility

[daboarder]

fair enough, I guess round m area we don't play with many buildings, mostly only ruins.

[Kirsten]

depends how ruinous your ruins are really, some will block line of sight

[thecactusman17]

With shrouding. Don't forget the shrouding. That means that you probably were already 18" away in nearby cover anyway. And if you have somebody truly nasty like Vect with you, it means that you are all but guaranteed to have first turn anyway. Taking Baron Sathonyx is an absolutely frightening prospect to your opponent with this guy, that +1 to rolls for first turn/deployment is going to drive people crazy. Seems nearly impossible to lose with that combo.

[rle68]

...and yet he is no worse than shrike....

if you can be seen by any enemy unit on the board you must be 18' away from the nearest one, thats not that hard.


unless your opp is space wolves with njal then your 36" away

[Lost Vyper]

Please people, don´t get all *cough* SCREAMERS *cough* over here :)...They WÌLL FAQ that s*** up, so let´s use our scalpel as we always do...with LEGAL shenanigans...

[G00dySmiley]

I hope they FAQ it and it is legit, I have yet to buy the model, I will buy him and sometimes use him IF it turns out you can infiltrate anywhere(with squad), until then i have more models to buy that take precident (bought 2 wave serpants, a fire prism, 2 10 man dire avengers boxes, and a wraithknight this weekend... i am tapped for the month or the wife might kill me) but assumign it is faq'd then I will happily buy him and a group of wraithguard to go with, esp if he does ignore proximity to units.

from a points comparison his ap2 ,instant death on a 6, sniper hits on a 2+ with a 3+ reroll (thnaks bs9) his shots are precition always, and he has shrouded, which is good... might not be140 points good even with his infiltrate as he only has 3 wounds and toughness 3 with no invunerable save, anything that ignores cover or even a decent amoutn of str 6 makes him dissappear with ease (oddly a wave serpant with its ignore cover shield firing makes short work of him) compare him in cost to rangers... 5 rangers for 60 points, so 2 squads of 6 are 144... 4 more points buys 9 more wounds, loses ability to one shot all wounds in a single model, loses ap2 and precition shots on allbut a 6... but with 12 sniper shots you should get 2 precitions, and 2 rending (bonus if the precitions are rending... also rangers are troops so scoring, also have infiltrate allbeit not super cool deploy super close, but you qwouldn't want this even with Illic alone) so i hope it is faq'd in favor of putting a unit of eldar or battle brothers anywhere as otherwise he is very much not worth the points liek so much already in the eldar codex (looking at you banshees painted nice but staying in the case every week)

[Dave Mcturk]

illic [warlord] with heavy reapers and the baron ... 2+ cover save... 3+ armour ... 48" 8/3 ... ignore jinks
ex with fast and night... and a split shot.. FIREBASE !