Crafting a credible "Fallen angels" strikeforce

[Themaninthegreenhat]

Hi!

Sorry to only post when i come looking for some help, but these boards are a wellspring of information.

I've been intending to start up a DA army for quite a while, but i can't get over the fact that i:
A)Want to bring me some Cypher up in thar' house. The elusive loner seeking absolvement/Complete and utter mischief maker causing all that wacky heresy.
B) want to use a different Colour scheme and to do something a tad more original (let's me tap my arts and crafty side and embrace the incessant need to be "different and angsty")

Now, the problem that i'm having in this regard is kind of twofold. 1) My friends keep trying to convince me that a Strikeforce of non-compliant Space marines would by definition be "Chaos" marines. While i keep referring to the notation that several "fallen" are working as independent units seeking absolvement for their sins and, refusing to fall in because they consider that the Lion delayed his arrival at Terra intentionally and thusly think of the Loyalist angels to be enforcing a flawed system perpetuated by a heretic.

Now the way i had intended to use them would be as a (approximately) 1000-1500 strikeforce with an independent cruiser (not to sure about the exact ranking or appropriate size of a spaceship either, so I'd appreciate a corrective note here as well). And Using a converted model as "count-as" Cypher, with the argument being that "Cypher seems to have a propensity for gathering fallen angels where he appears" with two plasma pistols, artificer armour and some kind of power Sword (sheated on his back for modelling purposes)

Now i'm not sure if anyone else considers this even barely plausible to pass of as "probable" but i'd appreciate some feedback, also, i will be paiting most of it black (ye olde colouring of the angels) and having Dark terminators.

Anyone want to do me the favour of providing me with some feedback for the idea? Please?

[musical-fool]

Ok second try at writing a reply as I pressed cancel by mistake, working night shifts really isn't good for the breain^^

To represent Cypher with the DA codex my opinion is that you go with an Interrogator Chaplain 110pts
+ plasma pistol 15pts (he only has one PP in the fluff (although master crafted) and a master crafted BP that you could represent with Foe smiter 20pts)
+ the Monster Slayer of Caliban 45pts to represent the broken but supposedly still working Lion Sword.

In my opinion the Fallen should be based on a Greenwing army list (as many tactical, assault and devastator marines with the odd specialist units like bikes, termies, dread, etc).

For the modelling and painting:
The fluff tells us that the Fallen and Cypher have no qualms in "borrowing" equipment from the Imperium. I think in the Descent of Angels (the one with Chappy Boreas, I think) Cypher takes a Land Raider from the DA bastion and also is stated as having a strike cruiser (?).
The Consecrator scheme in the DA codex is supposed to be the closest to the HH era colours of the DA.

BAsically it all depends on which codex you would like to play with and fitting your army around that codex. I am doing a REd Corsair/ Fallen army with Cypher as a Dark Apostle, works quite well.

[Tyrendian]

I like the idea, and don't see it as completely impossible... you would have to think about a way to explain how they managed to stay hidden for ten thousand years though :-)
Playing them as Loyalists is perfectly fine from my point of view - depending on your background and the willingness of your opponents you might even consider playing them 30k, maybe without some of the more... esoteric, shall we say?... wargear like Phosphex and Volkite. Other than that, it's really your decision how chaos-y your guys are... A friend of mine used to play his Night Lords without any of the Chaos stuff in the Chaos 'dex, i.e. no daemon engines etc and very sparing use of marks, which are represented in other ways (say heavy bionics to account for MoN).
Also, do you by "a 1000-1500 strikeforce" mean that many Marines? That would pretty much kill credibility in my book... now I realise the Legions were much larger than today's chapters, but a force that size is nigh on impossible to hide, at least for so long a time and from a search as dedicated as the one we have on our hand...
An appropriate "ship" for such a force would be the Phalanx or a Black Fortress... or some Space Hulk, like the Soul Drinkers hijacked... as far as I'm aware, the average Company has a Strike Cruiser or Battle Barge more or less permanently assigned to them (at least in the cases of Ultramarines, Space Wolves and Blood Ravens, which are different enough to make them somewhat representative), plus an assortment of Escorts and sometimes support craft.

[Nabterayl]

I don't think the average battle company in a codex chapter has a permanently assigned strike cruiser, let alone battle barge - most chapters don't have enough capital ships to dedicate one to each company. Even the Blood Angels only have 9 capital ships in their entire fleet (2 battle barges and 7 strike cruisers), which is barely enough.

That said, obviously a force such as you're describing needs a dedicated ship. How big it is depends on how literally you mean your 1000-1500 points of marines (I'm assuming you mean 1000-1500 points, not 1000-1500 marines). As that's only a few squads, you could probably support a force that big from a rapid strike vessel - a strike cruiser is for conveying "one company" strike forces, which in reality number about 150 marines or so.

If by "non-compliant" your friends mean "not part of the Adeptus Terra," then I agree with your friends with one important caveat (if by "non-compliant" they mean "do not conform to the TO laid down in the Codex Astartes, obviously I disagree - the Space Wolves are not a Chaos chapter just because they violate the letter of the codex and would violate its spirit if they could). That is, any force of space marines not formally subject to the authority of the Adeptus Terra is by definition a Chaos chapter from the Imperial point of view. The Imperium does not define "Chaos space marine" as "space marine who worships the Chaos gods;" it defines it as "space marine who does not recognize the authority of the current Imperial government" (or rather, the Imperium refuses to believe that one can disagree with the current Imperial government and not worship Chaos).

This ideological blind spot leaves room for "Chaos" marines who are in fact simply outlaws. If that's the sort of group you want to play, I think it's perfectly appropriate to use the Dark Angels codex. I agree with Musical Fool in this regard - and also with his note that you could also play these merely-outlaw "Chaos" marines using the CSM codex if you actually preferred that book (which it sounds like you don't).

[Themaninthegreenhat]

Hi!

great idea, Practically (modelling ideas, skip if you want) I like the Cypher model, but I'm not a fan of "bared faces" models. and the hair, (while apropos) looks a tad wiry for me. So i intend to build my own model from DA veterans bits and some Grey knight pauldrons and extras.I've also got A bolt pistol arm and A Plasma pistol arm so it works out rather nicely. I've talked to the Group i game with and they we're fine with a "counts" as model, thinking either a CM or Azrael Equivalent, and a ten point add-on for the extra plasma gun. The Idea with the Foe-smiter is a really good one however. i'm going to give that one a once-over.

I'm probably going with a "Greenwing" as i've got A LOT of Tac-squads lying around (if you want to give my "crunch" opposite of this post a once-over in the Army list section i'd be much obliged) and i intend to have one Assault and and a termie group. What with the sparsity of Terminator suits, i'm not sure if it's even credible to have five suits, but i'll spin on it and make a good reason.

As a former P&P RPG Nerd i kind of look forward to creating back storys for my company command squad, fallen idealists trying to cling to what they believe to be right. While still certain in the justness of their cause, they are starting to question the world around them, and overall I'm trying to go with a more "Shining knight idealism" than the "hooded monastic order feel" of the DA. It should probably be mentioned that i'm reading the "Descent of angels" but i haven't made it through the book yet. It's a good source of inspiration.
REd corsair Fallen? interestiiing. Do you have pictures or/blog entries, i'd like to see if there is some inspiratino i can pick up for my modelling :)

[Themaninthegreenhat]

Hi!

Well the size issue is pretty much grounded in being vague, i was thinking 1000-1500 POINTS :) i should've been clearer about that. I'm also crafting a backstory grounded in the "Descent of angels" and a lot of the attitude i've made so far can be simply put as "Disdain for the single mindedness of current DA, trying to cling to Chivalrous ideals despite the fact that they are considered heretics"

A strike cruiser seems appropriate for what i've got in mind, and as was posted in this Thread by Musical-fool (keep cool) the Fallen doesn't have any qualms, about "borrowing equipment" but all the boarding actions I've read seem damn difficult to pull off. Either they capture while in dock/ repairs. Which means hijacking it from a custodes protected mechanica planet. Or lure it into an ambush (getting an idea of the top of my head here) by using the DA's willingness to hunt the fallen, and then fool them into believing that they are a successor chapter with prisoners to get on board of the actual ship. And then a full bodied boarding.

What do you think? Highly improbable?

[Themaninthegreenhat]

Hi!

that's a pretty good point. Me being pretty new to the game (approximately two years of playing) can find it a bit intimidating arguing with my friends who've played for over a decade and a half.

I had an idea about acquiring a strike cruiser above, do you think it seems plausible in the least?

Also, i was wondering if i might be as impetous as asking someone to give my "crunch" idea in the army lists posts a once-over?