Is the new bike council worst than before?

[chicop76]

When I say is it worst, what i mean to say is that is it broken lol. Due to nids and wolves with anti psychic auras and some models in the squad at leadership 8 it's not an auto win here. However not evryone plays nids and everyone can't take space wolves. In many ways i think the unit overall is much better than it was in the last codex. i am not sure if it is power as it was in 3rd but it is scarry enough.

Ok let's say you take a basic size squad a farseer and 5 warlocks will hit you for 435 points which isn't a big hit yet. At this point level you have 8 psyker powers at your disposal. Also I threw in singing spears for all.

A unit like this I would assume you should take the Shard of Anaris. This will make the unit fearless and make your farseer attacks capable of dealing instant death in a challenge which you probably should have a warlock due instead. Unless you enter death trance which a second farseer would be good and not good with this weapon. The primary reason is to get fearless and the rending and possible strength 5 armour bane attacks.

The singing spear with pistols give all models 2 attacks in combat and 3 on the charge. With 6 spear's that's 6 strength 9 range attacks at vehicles and against toughness 8 or higher you are wounding on 2s from range attacks, a tau ally with a purtide chip, ignor cover, and twin liked would be good with this unit, but i am just using pure eldar in this.

In close combat you have 18 possible attacks that wound on 2s as well.

Next we should go into the power sets. The Farseer has access to diviation, telepathy, and fate powers while the guardians have the battle powers. With just one Farseer I think it would be best just to go all three rolls into fate, if two farseers telepathy isn't bad and diviation have nice powers as well.

The basic fall back powers for fate and battle is guide and concel/ reveal. Guide is a watered down prescience power that only applies to shooting. Diviation is better if you are going for a sure power, If you get two good powers of fate than diviation is good to fall back on. I would roll one at a time due to this. Conceal gives the caster shrounding , which gives the unit shrouding. Since you are on bikes that means if you move you get a +3 cover save and if you turbo you get a +2 cover save. Against most armies a +2 cover save is solid, but against Tau it really means nothing.

So far the squad is ok and not great. This is where the great comes in.

The farseer can cast doom and fortune. This is where 2 Farseers really come into the picture which you should be able to get doom or fortune. With on Farseer it will be hard to get fortune. With 3 rolls it really helps out to get this power. If you get fortune than you can re roll saves which is awesome. even without fortune you are durable than most things already.

Next is the warlock powers. i would say 2farseers and 6 warlocks is the best way to do this. The problem with the warlocks you can wind up with 6 empower powers, while with 1 farseer you have to have 3 differant powers. that being said most of the warlock powers are usuable.

The big ones I'll say are these Destructor/renewal, enhance drain, protect/ jinx, embolden/ horrify. You can get fearless, but if i have gear i can get and know i have it than I rather get said ger. However if the luck gods love you I would drop the rather expesive gear which would bring the squad down a lot in points. the uses are many, but i will cover the one power that makes the seer council better than before.

Protect/jinx: the more warlocks you have to more likely yuu will have this power. The big point i want to make is this power does stack. i know maledictions do, i am assuming blessings does. With this power your council now have a +2 save on bikes. With a +2 save and a 3+ cover save it will be rather hard to kill these guys, especially if you get fortune. If danger in the way of combat get's close you have 3 moves. 12" normal move, 18" turbo move, and a 2d6" assault move in any direction. That's 32-42" any direction you want to be and you still can cast most of your powers doing this, makes it easy to get rear or side armour shots, or get point blank in an annoying unit face. one possibility is to lower saves. for example you are facing a thirster in combat and you have fortune. due to re rollable 4+ he can't kill all your guys or you can have a warlock challenge him one on on giving that warlock atleat one re roll. if he some how survives and can hit the thirster back you can lower the thirster save to a 4+, and with 2 jinxes a 5+. your 2+ wounds will really hurt at this point.

As a side note I notice you can add warlock jetbikes to let's say guardians. With protect your guardians are now 4+ onyour warlock is a 2+ regular save. even better if you take a jetbike squad and they all get a 2+ save. With doom and guide your jetbikes will be nasty tx to the rending they now have.

[Vallen]

I've been examining this unit too.

If you do take 6 warlock and 2 farseers then on a normal day you'll get the powers you need (Fortune & Protect).

A few counterpoints to your last part though. Warlocks are not characters unless they are attached to their guardian squads...so they can't challenge.

Also, and perhaps most annoying of the new warlock rules...the sequence for assigning the warlocks to units happens before you roll out powers. You might already know this but I think it is important to emphasize this point to anyone reading. This means that you can't run a big unit of bikers...wait to see which powers they gen then break them off to the best paired units.

Regardless, for about 600 pts you get a fairly nasty unit that will be almost invincible....your biggest threat will be bad odds :)

[chicop76]

I've been examining this unit too.

If you do take 6 warlock and 2 farseers then on a normal day you'll get the powers you need (Fortune & Protect).

A few counterpoints to your last part though. Warlocks are not characters unless they are attached to their guardian squads...so they can't challenge.

Also, and perhaps most annoying of the new warlock rules...the sequence for assigning the warlocks to units happens before you roll out powers. You might already know this but I think it is important to emphasize this point to anyone reading. This means that you can't run a big unit of bikers...wait to see which powers they gen then break them off to the best paired units.

Regardless, for about 600 pts you get a fairly nasty unit that will be almost invincible....your biggest threat will be bad odds :)

Damn that sucks. Guess you should deny that challenge when needed. I was gonna say use death mission, but that is soooo last resort. I am still trying to figure out how you can recast to put more points on it to keep your guy alive.

average counters 4
end of move ment phase lose one 3 counters
end of assault saved
end of shooting lose one counter 2
enemy turn
end of movement saved
end of shooting lose one have one counter
end of assault saved

When it comes back around on average you will have to cast again or die. one bad roll equals dead farseer. If you have garbage powers on this farseer and you don't want to lose your other farseer you may have to do this. if it was easy to maintain I would say go for this, but with 6 times you have to roll to remove counters it's a risky gambit.

that is a good point about the warlocks. If it was the other way arouind you can optimize for awesomeness.

[Vallen]

Yeah Death Mission is pretty last resort...at first I thought it was turns and I was like "That's not so bad" then I read more and was like ouch...phases...lol

Here is a thought...you trust to luck to get fortune 50/50 chance...use one farseer. For the second HQ use baharroth.
He has similar maneuverability. If you really need the bikes to move he can skyleap and rejoin them next turn. The unit would then have an armor 2+/4++ eternal fearless bad@ss to take the challenges and deal out pain :) Plus his hit&run makes sure you don't get tarpitted. If you do get fortune....wow your opponent will hate you so bad :)

[DarkLink]

Without Fortune (reliably), and with Destructor being an actual psychic power now (with at least a 44% chance of failure thanks to DtW), I doubt Seer Councils will be that good.

[chicop76]

Yeah Death Mission is pretty last resort...at first I thought it was turns and I was like "That's not so bad" then I read more and was like ouch...phases...lol

Here is a thought...you trust to luck to get fortune 50/50 chance...use one farseer. For the second HQ use baharroth.
He has similar maneuverability. If you really need the bikes to move he can skyleap and rejoin them next turn. The unit would then have an armor 2+/4++ eternal fearless bad@ss to take the challenges and deal out pain :) Plus his hit&run makes sure you don't get tarpitted. If you do get fortune....wow your opponent will hate you so bad :)



Wow. That's a great ideal. With decent luck you should get fortune or make your guys +2 saves. With that character you don't have to take the expensive upgrade. I would say 6 warlocks, farseer, and mr. Bird wuld be a good combo.

@link. It's not just fortune, it's also relying on a 2+ save which the squad never had before. Fortunes is a 50/50 chance and with six warlocks you have a good chance of having a +2 save. If you take two farseers you have a decent chance to have fortune and 2+ saves.

[cebalrai]

Wow. That's a great ideal. With decent luck you should get fortune or make your guys +2 saves. With that character you don't have to take the expensive upgrade. I would say 6 warlocks, farseer, and mr. Bird wuld be a good combo.

@link. It's not just fortune, it's also relying on a 2+ save which the squad never had before. Fortunes is a 50/50 chance and with six warlocks you have a good chance of having a +2 save. If you take two farseers you have a decent chance to have fortune and 2+ saves.


Basically this. A rerollable 2+ save backed up by a rerollable 4++ is immensely powerful. Combine that with knocking down your opponent's armor by a point and you're in business. The kicker is rolling the wrong powers so it makes you want to take a lot of Warlocks.

[chicop76]

Basically this. A rerollable 2+ save backed up by a rerollable 4++ is immensely powerful. Combine that with knocking down your opponent's armor by a point and you're in business. The kicker is rolling the wrong powers so it makes you want to take a lot of Warlocks.

It does, but the more warlocks isn't really a bad thing hittig around 50 points a pop. A ground council might be actually better since people was getting bikes due to the better save. Just check damn no saves. Back to bikes lol.

[cebalrai]

It does, but the more warlocks isn't really a bad thing hittig around 50 points a pop. A ground council might be actually better since people was getting bikes due to the better save. Just check damn no saves. Back to bikes lol.

With bikes getting cheaper it's hard not to take them. Although I guess there are certain strategies where you'd want to have a Wave Serpent. If you're running a small council for instance you may want to just get inside a LOLglance Serpent to make sure you aren't accidentally in fragile bike mode. And having another Serpent is never a bad thing.

[DarkLink]

Wow. That's a great ideal. With decent luck you should get fortune or make your guys +2 saves. With that character you don't have to take the expensive upgrade. I would say 6 warlocks, farseer, and mr. Bird wuld be a good combo.

@link. It's not just fortune, it's also relying on a 2+ save which the squad never had before. Fortunes is a 50/50 chance and with six warlocks you have a good chance of having a +2 save. If you take two farseers you have a decent chance to have fortune and 2+ saves.

The odds of a Farseer rolling Fortune is between a 53.3% and a 61.6%, depending on if/when you default a power to the Primaris. If you don't default the first two, it's the 62% chance. If you default the first power, it's a 53% chance. If you default the second, it's a 57% chance. It doesn't matter if you default your third. Since you can't control when you roll a crappy power you decide to default, on average you've got a 57% chance for a Farseer to roll Fortune, if you keep rolling on Runes of Fate until you get it. With two Farseers, that's a 81.6% chance.


6 Warlocks only have about a 60% chance of getting the +1 armor at least once.

[Caitsidhe]

I've been examining this unit too.

If you do take 6 warlock and 2 farseers then on a normal day you'll get the powers you need (Fortune & Protect).

A few counterpoints to your last part though. Warlocks are not characters unless they are attached to their guardian squads...so they can't challenge.

Also, and perhaps most annoying of the new warlock rules...the sequence for assigning the warlocks to units happens before you roll out powers. You might already know this but I think it is important to emphasize this point to anyone reading. This means that you can't run a big unit of bikers...wait to see which powers they gen then break them off to the best paired units.

Regardless, for about 600 pts you get a fairly nasty unit that will be almost invincible....your biggest threat will be bad odds :)

Well... and Mindstrike Missiles I would think?

[chicop76]

Well... and Mindstrike Missiles I would think?

Nope put farseer in the front and wtach him lose warp charges instead of taking perils.

[DarkLink]

It's a Perils test per hit, and you only get so many warp charges. And if your farseers get burned out and you lose fortune, then I'm storm boltering you to death.

[Caitsidhe]

Nope put farseer in the front and wtach him lose warp charges instead of taking perils.

What makes youthink you will get to decide how to be in the right position? :) Mindstrike Missiles will be fired from a plane that has the movement to make sure it is anywhere it needs to be when it lets them go so you won't be tanking anything anyway. :)

[Carstens]

It's worth noting that warlocks arn't chars until they leave the council. Also fairly certain that the odds of getting fortune is 50%, you end up with 3/6 each having an equal chance of being picked, with no way of influencing it positively. (While not certain I think you'r forgetting to account for rolling fortune multiple times in a row.)

[chicop76]

What makes youthink you will get to decide how to be in the right position? :) Mindstrike Missiles will be fired from a plane that has the movement to make sure it is anywhere it needs to be when it lets them go so you won't be tanking anything anyway. :)

What makes you think you can decide on who you hit.

What makes you think you will hit with all 4 missiles. Also if I put a non psychic in front than lol. Anyway to fire missles and to move 36" on the board limits your movement. Not to mention I can see said unit in yur list brightas day. I just sit back and shoot and wait for your guy to come in. Once he does skyfire city. Simple soluton really.

[Caitsidhe]

What makes you think you can decide on who you hit.

What makes you think you will hit with all 4 missiles. Also if I put a non psychic in front than lol. Anyway to fire missles and to move 36" on the board limits your movement. Not to mention I can see said unit in yur list brightas day. I just sit back and shoot and wait for your guy to come in. Once he does skyfire city. Simple soluton really.

Whatever you say. ;) I don't think the unit sounds invulnerable. I think the unit sounds wicked expensive and DOA these days like most attempts at Deathstar construction. I say go for it. I will say that I'm not particularly afraid of the build and I don't have Mindstrike Missiles.

[chicop76]

Whatever you say. ;) I don't think the unit sounds invulnerable. I think the unit sounds wicked expensive and DOA these days like most attempts at Deathstar construction. I say go for it. I will say that I'm not particularly afraid of the build and I don't have Mindstrike Missiles.

Ok. Whatever you say lol. Not like people use mindstrike missles these days anyway, especially since you can opt for the flyer with the strength 8 missiles.

I say wait and see. It still not really expensive for what it does. The fact it can take out units at range is not a problem, wound on 2s and reduce saves, than move 2d6 away to stay out of assault.

So what will really shut them down is wolves, and that's only have the battle.

The funny thing is they can shoot, run, and move 2d6 good luck catching that or getting away from that.

For a deathstar it isn't really expensive. 2 farseers, with 6 warlockss hits around 500 points. It's a hard to kill unit especially if they have 2+ saves and fortune.

[DarkLink]

It's worth noting that warlocks arn't chars until they leave the council. Also fairly certain that the odds of getting fortune is 50%, you end up with 3/6 each having an equal chance of being picked, with no way of influencing it positively. (While not certain I think you'r forgetting to account for rolling fortune multiple times in a row.)

The math is more complicated than that. It's sampling without replacement if you don't default, with replacement if you do. It doesn't sound like you've taken any statistics classes, so you probably don't know what that means, so I'll explain.

You roll your first power. That's a 1 in 6 chance of getting any single power, thus a 16.7% chance of getting Fortune. If you decide not to default, when you roll your second power it's only a 1 in 5 chance, because you reroll duplicate powers. That means you're now up to a 20% chance of rolling any given power. Then, if you don't default on that, your third power is a 1/4 chance of getting one of the remaining powers because you've eliminated two powers from the list. .167+.2+.25=.617, for a 61.7% chance if you don't default to Guide with the first two powers.

That's the 'without replacement'.


If you do default, then depending on which power you default you don't get quite as good of odds. If you default your first power (1/6 chance), then the second power is also a 1/6 instead of 1/5, and then the third power is 1/5 instead of 1/4. 1/6+1/6+1/5 is .5333.

If you default your second power, then it's a 1/6+1/5+1/5, for a .566666.


For the life of me, I don't know why they're willing to make kids take calculus in high school, but not statistics. Most people won't use calculus unless you're in a technical field, but everyone should know basic statistics at least to the AP stats level in America, if for no other reason than to know how much politicians are bull****ting when they cite X study for Y cause.



What makes you think you will hit with all 4 missiles. Also if I put a non psychic in front than lol.

Doesn't matter. Whatever model is under the template is the one that gets hit with Perils (if they're a psyker), not the model the str 4 wound is allocated to. You don't get to allocate the Perils wounds. All I have to do is place the templates on a warlock and hope I don't scatter, and that Warlock is dead.

[Caitsidhe]

Doesn't matter. Whatever model is under the template is the one that gets hit with Perils (if they're a psyker), not the model the str 4 wound is allocated to. You don't get to allocate the Perils wounds. All I have to do is place the templates on a warlock and hope I don't scatter, and that Warlock is dead.

Bingo. Besides this obvious fact, GK Mindstrike Missiles have already been making a come back due to the rise in Godzilla Lists of Daemons. The rise in psychics is only likely to assure that most Marine players building All Comer lists will consider GK allies just enough to get a solid close combat/shooting machine and a damn plane sporting great AA weapons and Mindstrike Missiles.

All that aside, even under ideal conditions, the same rules apply to killing the expensive unit, volume of fire and high strength AP-2 or AP-1 shooting to force the invulnerable saves. I'm perfectly happy to watch them bleed out a model or two at a time. I'm also more than willing to get a DP w/Black Mace in there to watch them lose a single model in combat and then better than half the remaining unit when so many start crumbling to dust (something they don't get a reroll on).

[chicop76]

Bingo. Besides this obvious fact, GK Mindstrike Missiles have already been making a come back due to the rise in Godzilla Lists of Daemons. The rise in psychics is only likely to assure that most Marine players building All Comer lists will consider GK allies just enough to get a solid close combat/shooting machine and a damn plane sporting great AA weapons and Mindstrike Missiles.

All that aside, even under ideal conditions, the same rules apply to killing the expensive unit, volume of fire and high strength AP-2 or AP-1 shooting to force the invulnerable saves. I'm perfectly happy to watch them bleed out a model or two at a time. I'm also more than willing to get a DP w/Black Mace in there to watch them lose a single model in combat and then better than half the remaining unit when so many start crumbling to dust (something they don't get a reroll on).

Good luck trying to catch them in combat. If you do they can still do pretty well.

I see people taking more space wolf alles over greyknights to deal with psykers, combat, and range. I don't know, but I think jaws of the warp wolf and a 24" psychic barrier screams to pick wolves over knights.

The missiles are one shot for starters. What you goint to do field 3 of them so you can kill one psyker unit. The fact you are pouring all yojr resources into them is the point of a deathstar. A deathstar is mearly a huge distraction that allows your army to win. I not saying the seer council can take on a whole army, just saying it can tie up one long enough for you to die to the other units you completly ignoring. Only true kill everything unit I seen was the two cannoness combo with both of them having +2 invulnerable saves. That was a killer combo.

The thing you are looking at is models on a jet bike and not 8 models with 12 psychic powers on jet bikes. We can talk theory all day, but unless you have actually beaten said unit soundly repeatedly or I use or seen it used with a huge success it's all theory. However I seen parts of it in action to say it will work rather well coming from a daemon player who uses more powers than that.

[Caitsidhe]

Good luck trying to catch them in combat. If you do they can still do pretty well.

I'm pretty sure my Flying Monstrous Creature can catch them. That is neither here nor there. And if you are hiding way in the back, the chances your Disciplines are helping you is greatly reduced, as is the plan of using this unit to draw fire off the rest of your army.


The thing you are looking at is models on a jet bike and not 8 models with 12 psychic powers on jet bikes.

Heh. I'm simply looking at an awful lot of points invested in a relatively small model count unit where any loss hurts. I'm looking at an average Toughness-4 which isn't that difficult to invoke saves upon (or cause Instant Death). I'm thinking volume of fire still tells the tale. I'm not saying the unit doesn't have its merits or that it can't accomplish some goals. For the price you are talking about, it BETTER be able to do some great things. I'm just saying that I don't have the same faith in its invulnerability that you seem to have. I'm saying that I'm not scared of it. Of course, in my area (as with most places) the average game has gone to about 1850 or less, so the cost seems very prohibitive to me indeed. I'm assuming you are thinking of higher point games.


We can talk theory all day, but unless you have actually beaten said unit soundly repeatedly or I use or seen it used with a huge success it's all theory. However I seen parts of it in action to say it will work rather well coming from a daemon player who uses more powers than that.

Yes it is all theory. The difference between you and I is that you seem to think it is awesome without having played many games. I take the more pragmatic approach of telling you how I would try to kill it, and pointing out the simple math that attempting to tank up is rarely a great idea in a game wherein offensive output is cheaper and tends to statistically overcome defensive output. Ours is a game of glass cannons, and while you can certainly (when the dice go well) make a tougher glass than most... it is still glass. I think Tau would eat you for lunch, for example and not even spit out the bones if you dumped that many points into that unit and made it the lynchpin of your army.

[DarkLink]

The missiles are one shot for starters. What you goint to do field 3 of them so you can kill one psyker unit. The fact you are pouring all yojr resources into them is the point of a deathstar. A deathstar is mearly a huge distraction that allows your army to win. I not saying the seer council can take on a whole army, just saying it can tie up one long enough for you to die to the other units you completly ignoring. Only true kill everything unit I seen was the two cannoness combo with both of them having +2 invulnerable saves. That was a killer combo.

One raven comes with 4 missiles, and they're small blasts. All you need to do to auto-kill a warlock is tag it with a template, and Grey Knights can get Prescience really easily, so as long as your dice aren't too bad that's a third or so of your unit gone, more if you can get multiple models. And that's before resolving the effects of the Str 4 hits and any other guns the Storm Raven has. It does take two turns, I guess, since you can only shoot missiles in pairs, but Eldar don't have very good AA options against AV 12 (really, only the Crimson Hunter, but if the Crimson Hunter is on and I get to shoot with my Raven, it's dead, and even the Hunter isn't guaranteed to kill AV12 in one turn) I'm not too worried.

[deinol]

Re: You roll your first power. That's a 1 in 6 chance of getting any single power, thus a 16.7% chance of getting Fortune. If you decide not to default, when you roll your second power it's only a 1 in 5 chance, because you reroll duplicate powers. That means you're now up to a 20% chance of rolling any given power. Then, if you don't default on that, your third power is a 1/4 chance of getting one of the remaining powers because you've eliminated two powers from the list. .167+.2+.25=.617, for a 61.7% chance if you don't default to Guide with the first two powers.

That's not how the math works.

16.7 % of the time, you get what you want the first roll.
20% of the 83.3% of the times that remain you get what you want 2nd roll.
25% of the 66.7% of the time you get what you want the last roll.

That means 3 in 6 = 50% of the time.

Your odds do go down if you default, so if you want a specific power wait and default on the last roll.

[chicop76]

I been playing since I don't know 3rd edition. For your mc to catch it in combat is 24" max. Keep in mind the seer council can move 12"+18"+6"+12" and still do every thing. That's 48" max my council can go where they want. 24" max vs 48" max, and you telling me your winged MC can easily catch said unit.

Weight of fire and rapid fire,etc. Kills a lot of stuff. If you stupidly run the council in front of a player you get what you get litterly. With 42" of movement, forgot run and turbo don't work together they can place them selves where a 1/3 or less can fcus them. It's the same with my thirster, doom, tyrgon, etc. You put pressure on a section on the army and take a portion of the army out of the fight. Works every time. Unless you bunch your army together it's the only way to avoid it. Good luck if you have to play objectives. That's all I play, but if you play with little terrain and no objectives than I can see your view point.

Another thing you're assuming I have no other unit supporting etc. If you adding 3 plus units to kill my council I have 3+ units supporting my council.

When you see the council spam again and it's effective than I'm right, if not than you are right, but I doubt many will flock to it anyway due to it will take skill to get good use out of the unit. It's not a no brainer unit like paladin's( love my riptide)

My point it's a really good supporting unit. Depending on what powers you get will determine what roles it will play. If you get like 4-4 strength debuffs than that daemon pince can have strength 4 in combat and not that scarry when they are wounding back on 2s, but it's very situational.

If you get rerollable +2 saves with +2 cover saves re rollable good luck killing that. The odds is still good enough to say it is often enough to happen enough.

[laigenyee]

Mindstrike missiles so gay? sure hit? sure wound? Warlocks no Brotherhood of psykers? Give perils to the Farseer with the ghost helm? :(

[DarkLink]

Why would they get Brotherhood of Psykers? They're not casting squad psychic powers, they're casting individual powers.

[Mr.Pickelz]

Isn't Brotherhood of Psykers a speical rule the squad has to have, for that to take effect?
I don't see it in my eldar codex, and the warlocks are all singular psykers, but in one squad. not a squad of psykers with a model as a focal point (aka a sarg. or equivalent)
If that were the case, then the council would be heavily nerfed in offensive potential as only one model is allowed to cast powers...

[DarkLink]

They don't have it, he was lamenting (homophobicly) the fact that they don't. I was pointing out that they don't have it because they don't have squad psychic powers.

[daboarder]

Just a thought, can we all stop responding to chicop?

The guys is nuts, doesn't know the rules, changes his argument and will never, ever change his mind. If he wants to go about playing with a seer council and claiming the DoM is the most broken thing ever, just let the man.

[White Tiger88]

Just a thought, can we all stop responding to chicop?

The guys is nuts, doesn't know the rules, changes his argument and will never, ever change his mind. If he wants to go about playing with a seer council and claiming the DoM is the most broken thing ever, just let the man.


I agree all i see is "Wah wah wah so good" honestly the Bikes are not even a challenge to deal with. (Mind you i play slaanesh demons so i go first, have more attacks and am faster for a quarter of the cost)

[chicop76]

I agree all i see is "Wah wah wah so good" honestly the Bikes are not even a challenge to deal with. (Mind you i play slaanesh demons so i go first, have more attacks and am faster for a quarter of the cost)

You might go first you might not. The squad can lower your initiative and the farseer strikes at the same time as you do not throwing any powers int the mix.

Also why would they even assault your demonettes to begin with. All they have to do is park 12" away and lob 7 strength 9 leshbane attacks at you with possible armour reduction. After shooting 12" away they can move d6" away thanks to battle focus and re roll thanks to fleet. Than throw in that eldar jet bikes can move 2d6 in the assault phase with out assulting it' 12"+ 3d6" that they can be away from some one after they shoot at them.

However if the bird guy is added like someone suggested than they can take your daemonettes. It's possible to lower your leadership by -3 even though they already -1 leadership due to you are daemonettes and have hatred agninst you. Which means leadership 4 daemonettes who get feared and have ws 1. However at least you will be 7-8 depending if you have a herald or not. Not looking at the bird guy(Barramoth with out looking) stats majority would negate your rending and can possibly have a +2 save. If you have +3or +2 invulnerable saves than the council can just move to another location 12" move 18" turbo, 2d6 assault move.

Daemons is my main by the way.

[chicop76]

Just a thought, can we all stop responding to chicop?

The guys is nuts, doesn't know the rules, changes his argument and will never, ever change his mind. If he wants to go about playing with a seer council and claiming the DoM is the most broken thing ever, just let the man.

If you say so. I even quoted rules to you in past post and you like to ignore said rules even exist. Can't always lead a horse to water.

I can change my mind. With the doom I seen it in action a lot even in 6th it has way more options than it did before. Never seen the triple aura, that was a nice ideal. It cost under 100 points and with iron arm can be as strong and tough as the wraithknight with more wounds. The only part hard part to pull of really is the iron arm.

Never change his mind, but changes his argument which is changing his mind. Ok.

How about this. From now on I just attack you. That's all you been doing. I notice some things you said are not by the rules and your math hammer is really bad. How's about that.

If you attacking me of course I am not going to change my mind, duh. If you make an argument without attacking than I may agree to your points. If you do nothing,but attack while making your point I wil never agree with you. Simple as that.

I can make judgements due to how I seen the seer council act since 3rd edition. Is this council as strong as the one in 3rd, no. If I can take 5 farseers in a council it would be crazy even in this codex. Is it better than last codex is my point. Without me rereading the entire post it has some points which makes it better and some points which makes it worst. So let me go over pros and cons real quick.

Pros
1. Warlocks with Farseer and greatly buff or debuff units, all stack on each other. Turn to page 69 and look up blessings and maladictions. Anyway this is a huge bonus that wasn't there before.

2. Singing spears doesn't give up a cc attack and a cheap upgrade.

3. Battle Focus helps the unit fire at targets and fade back. It's an extra 6" that wasn't there before.

4. Can easily get shrouding. Better cover save.

5. Farseer can cast 3 powers.

That is a short list I can go on.

Cons
1. Warlocks are now can fall prey to perils

2. Powers are not garenteed, this is the major problem and why people say it sucks for the main point, and ignoring that you still have a ton of powers which makes them viable.

3. If you roll bad powers you can't change your mind and put them in squads. Also a bonus I should had metion is to be able to break up the council to fit who you are playing against.

4. Warlocks leadership 8 makes his power which used to be auto now have a possibility of not happening.

5. Runes of warding is gone

Again I can list more negatives but I could do the same with the positives.

Now that is it in a nut shell. You didn't really have that many negatives before and now you have to conted with them. Most people when they see a few negatives right off the unit. I try play testing and reading battle reports to see if it is bad enough instead of saying it's bad. If you said I play tested it 5x and it stunk wrote up a battle report and I can see how you used them than I can agree it suck or leave it to you not knowing how to use it, fire warrior sucks cause all I do is assault with them instead of shooting and moving.

120 points for a master 3 psyker on a bike and 50 points for a master 1 psyker on a bike. It's not right on, but it's realy close enough. Compared to other armies that's cheap unless you play daemons. Warlocks suffer from one wound like tech marines, or even better you grey knight tech marines which is double the points geared out( not including rad and psychoke grenades). A regular bike hits you for almost 20 points and you paying about 35 points more for psychic powers, strength 9 fleshbane throwing weapon. All I can say is whine more.

Oh I looked at ghosthelm again. All I have to do is put the farseer that doesn't have fortune to absorb the misslies. All he has to do is not cast and use 3 charges to negate the missiles. Unless the faq sas otherwise he can negate 3 missile hits. 18" is all I need them to be around my army anyway.

If you want to ignore what I said due to your personal bias is up to you. All I can say the proff is in the pudding. No one knoows for sure until a tactic has been tested under fire. Theory is theory until played out. If it does well or even better than I can drink my tea. If it doesn't who really cares no tea for me. I am just pointing out unit possibilities.

The funny thing is I didn't even talk about it's buffing and debuffing roles.

The problem is you have to talk about itand assume that the unit have all it's powers.

[daboarder]

However if the bird guy is added like someone suggested than they can take your daemonettes. It's possible to lower your leadership by -3 and they already -1 your leadership due to you are daemonettes and have hatred against you. Which means leadership 3 daemonettes who get feared and have ws 1. However at least you will be 6-7 depending if you have a herald or not. Not looking at the bird guy(Barramoth with out looking) stats majority would negate your rending and can possibly have a +2 save. If you have +3or +2 invulnerable saves than the council can just move to another location 12" move 18" turbo, 2d6 assault move.

Daemons is my main by the way.


You know the rules do you? then make sense of this line


Because I see nothing in the hatred rules that drop leadership.

and Ancient doom means that the ELDAR are at -1 Ld, for fear test only....


so how are those rules mate?

[chicop76]

You know the rules do you? then make sense of this line


Because I see nothing in the hatred rules that drop leadership.

and Ancient doom means that the ELDAR are at -1 Ld, for fear test only....


so how are those rules mate?

My post says differant. Ancient Doom lowers eldar leadershp by -1. I mentioned that. Man now you changing my post to suit your needs. However it changes litle since the daemonettes can have -3 stackable leadership and if he has mind war leadership 7 is pretty low and 4 is even lower. Meaning either one model is dead or have a really low ws and bs.

[chicop76]

You know the rules do you? then make sense of this line


Because I see nothing in the hatred rules that drop leadership.

and Ancient doom means that the ELDAR are at -1 Ld, for fear test only....


so how are those rules mate?

My post says differant. Ancient Doom lowers eldar leadershp by -1. I mentioned that. Man now you changing my post to suit your needs. However it changes litle since the daemonettes can have -3 stackable leadership and if he has mind war leadership 7 is pretty low and 4 is even lower. Meaning either one model is dead or have a really low ws and bs.

Oh. I thought you wasn't going to respond, but if you respond back clearly you do not listen to your own advice.

[Caitsidhe]

@Chicop76: This is getting kind of dull. The truth of this will be evident in about three months. If you are correct, Eldar will be laying waste to the META and defeating all before them with ease. I fully expect the first time "some" people run into the unit you describe, it will take them by surprise and seem very potent. Within three months, however, I suspect it will not be the "go to" build. We have the luxury of waiting, so let's let this part of the discussion die shall we?

[chicop76]

@Chicop76: This is getting kind of dull. The truth of this will be evident in about three months. If you are correct, Eldar will be laying waste to the META and defeating all before them with ease. I fully expect the first time "some" people run into the unit you describe, it will take them by surprise and seem very potent. Within three months, however, I suspect it will not be the "go to" build. We have the luxury of waiting, so let's let this part of the discussion die shall we?

I'm just like messin with daborder. Border's are always mentto be crossed. Anyway I agree it's not a go to build. The old council was simpliar to use and a monkey could use it as long as he knew to press the fortune button. The new council takes a bit of brain power to play and is not an easy mode switch.

I am content on waiting. We won't really know until the army get's it's playing in. Like I said several times playtesting, battle reports, game time with the unit is going to point out how good it is, it's flaws and how you over come them.

Looked at an autarch which might not be a bad add on a bike. He can take the rending wound on 2 weapon with the charge lance weapon and a fusion gun, the fusion gun might be a tad over kill. Anyway he might not be a bad addition to the squad.

I can get into other points that was over looked. Which was sidetracted by how easy to kill or deal with the unit.

I want to point out it's more of a support unit than anything else, like taking fateweaver in a daemon list ( although re rolling twice a game turn and re rlling on the warp storm are not bad abilities)

[rle68]

all of this theory hammer and shoulda coulda woulda .. this list got tried vs my wolves.. njal stopped 60% of any power cast limiting the entire unit.. 15 krak missles ended any threat from them...

nothing in invincable

[Power Klawz]

Like all deathstar units, it will be very fun in casual games and potentially very deadly in all games... for the one or two turns its not dead because no one lets a deathstar roam through their Alderaan system without tossing a few Lukes at it, with maybe a Han Solo or two for good measure.

(I think Han and Luke to this Deatstar have all ready been described, they're not exactly rare since the majority are imperial and can be splashed as allies quite easily. 500 points for a single unit in a competitive 1850 game is almost universally too much to be viable. 10 man thunder hammer termie squads, basically the absolute cream of the crop in terms of high priced elite units, are an iffy prospect at best when you've got enough flashguns on the other side of the table to wipe them in a single round of fire, and at 1850 you basically will with a competitive list.)

Too many coneheaded eggs in one basket, a paired down version might fly quite well however as a distractionfex. Farseer with 2 or 3 locks rolling around tossing buffs around and charging into something juicy, takes more firepower to kill than most would be happy about for the 250 or so points it costs etc. etc.

Not sure if it will be super "competitive" but I'd run a paired down seer council in 1850 games just to see what shakes loose. Could end up a 300 point dud, could end up the harbingers of the endtimes, either way you still have enough points left to put some more eggs in other baskets.

[Caitsidhe]

Like all deathstar units, it will be very fun in casual games and potentially very deadly in all games... for the one or two turns its not dead because no one lets a deathstar roam through their Alderaan system without tossing a few Lukes at it, with maybe a Han Solo or two for good measure.

(I think Han and Luke to this Deatstar have all ready been described, they're not exactly rare since the majority are imperial and can be splashed as allies quite easily. 500 points for a single unit in a competitive 1850 game is almost universally too much to be viable. 10 man thunder hammer termie squads, basically the absolute cream of the crop in terms of high priced elite units, are an iffy prospect at best when you've got enough flashguns on the other side of the table to wipe them in a single round of fire, and at 1850 you basically will with a competitive list.)

Too many coneheaded eggs in one basket, a paired down version might fly quite well however as a distractionfex. Farseer with 2 or 3 locks rolling around tossing buffs around and charging into something juicy, takes more firepower to kill than most would be happy about for the 250 or so points it costs etc. etc.

Not sure if it will be super "competitive" but I'd run a paired down seer council in 1850 games just to see what shakes loose. Could end up a 300 point dud, could end up the barbingers of the endtimes, either way you still have enough points left to put some more eggs in other baskets.

I agree. This is a very good assessment. While I have no faith whatsoever in the Death Star version, I think a Star Destroyer model would be quite functional.

[chicop76]

I agree. This is a very good assessment. While I have no faith whatsoever in the Death Star version, I think a Star Destroyer model would be quite functional.

Power has a good point. Too bad you can only take one council per detachment. You spending less points and stil doing the same thing.

@ really 69: I think I mention space wolves quite often. Yes within 24" on a 3+ or 4+ you shut them down. That is not news. Same thing when in 3rd edition when the foot seer council thought it was a god until they went against greyknights which used to ignore invulnerable saves.

Also I wouldn't be surprised, I should quote myself. That the influx of space wolf allies will not be surprising. With runes of warding gone you will see more space wolf allies. However not everyone can take them as allies anyway. Also it's easier to kill a priest than it was a farseer anyway.

With runes gone I also expect more psykers popping up as well. Also nids becoming even stronger due to the gear nerf.

All that being said I never said it was broken, and said it was still a good unit. If you can pick out 2 or 3 units out of 200 differant units it says much to me. Out of 16 books you are going to ally with 1 book ok.

That being said necron chaos alllies or necron grey knights is what to prepare for really. Oh an Tau.

[Apollinarius]

It's cheaper, and much weaker. Simple as that.

Your warlocks are much worse at casting powers. Your Farseer is much worse at casting powers because of no rerolls on failed leadership and no runes. If you have one turn without fortune, your unit is dead.

I think it's much less powerful than before to run it, but if you like the unit for the damage it deals, it still works. It's a lot easier to kill unfortunately.

[daboarder]

My post says differant. Ancient Doom lowers eldar leadershp by -1. I mentioned that. Man now you changing my post to suit your needs. However it changes litle since the daemonettes can have -3 stackable leadership and if he has mind war leadership 7 is pretty low and 4 is even lower. Meaning either one model is dead or have a really low ws and bs.

Oh. I thought you wasn't going to respond, but if you respond back clearly you do not listen to your own advice.

You cheeky little rat.

Well here's something, anyone with brains just checks the LAST EDITED TIME STAMP, and sees that you edited your post after I posted.

The funny part is you've only changed part of your post and it still has a section which tries to say daemonette's are LD 3


You might go first you might not. The squad can lower your initiative and the farseer strikes at the same time as you do not throwing any powers int the mix.

Also why would they even assault your demonettes to begin with. All they have to do is park 12" away and lob 7 strength 9 leshbane attacks at you with possible armour reduction. After shooting 12" away they can move d6" away thanks to battle focus and re roll thanks to fleet. Than throw in that eldar jet bikes can move 2d6 in the assault phase with out assulting it' 12"+ 3d6" that they can be away from some one after they shoot at them.

However if the bird guy is added like someone suggested than they can take your daemonettes. It's possible to lower your leadership by -3 even though they already -1 leadership due to you are daemonettes and have hatred agninst you. Which means leadership 4 daemonettes who get feared and have ws 1. However at least you will be 7-8 depending if you have a herald or not. Not looking at the bird guy(Barramoth with out looking) stats majority would negate your rending and can possibly have a +2 save. If you have +3or +2 invulnerable saves than the council can just move to another location 12" move 18" turbo, 2d6 assault move.

Daemons is my main by the way.

[chicop76]

You cheeky little rat.

Well here's something, anyone with brains just checks the LAST EDITED TIME STAMP, and sees that you edited your post after I posted.

The funny part is you've only changed part of your post and it still has a section which tries to say daemonette's are LD 3


I know I did said that. It was part of my plan to get you to respond. Which you did. Yes I admit I edited my post. I am scum. I am a deciever, but I got you to post back again. After all said and done you did what I wanted you to do.

Why should I listen to someone whoe doesn't even follow his own advice.

Ok so the Farseer is leadership 9 vs fear. Wow. Guess that unit will fail that check.

Also if you respond back you just proving me right. Man I loving makine a run across the border for some Taco Bell.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Guys, let's keep it civil here, alright?
I may not be a moderator anymore, but I can still get them here.

[daboarder]

Guys, let's keep it civil here, alright?
I may not be a moderator anymore, but I can still get them here.

It's alright mate. I know when it's enough and im done here....wow I think im getting old

[chicop76]

Guys, let's keep it civil here, alright?
I may not be a moderator anymore, but I can still get them here.

Thanks. Hope you have a nice day. I'll be good. I don't mine debating. I just don't like personal attacks.

[Tynskel]

Like all deathstar units, it will be very fun in casual games and potentially very deadly in all games... for the one or two turns its not dead because no one lets a deathstar roam through their Alderaan system without tossing a few Lukes at it, with maybe a Han Solo or two for good measure.

(I think Han and Luke to this Deatstar have all ready been described, they're not exactly rare since the majority are imperial and can be splashed as allies quite easily. 500 points for a single unit in a competitive 1850 game is almost universally too much to be viable. 10 man thunder hammer termie squads, basically the absolute cream of the crop in terms of high priced elite units, are an iffy prospect at best when you've got enough flashguns on the other side of the table to wipe them in a single round of fire, and at 1850 you basically will with a competitive list.)

Too many coneheaded eggs in one basket, a paired down version might fly quite well however as a distractionfex. Farseer with 2 or 3 locks rolling around tossing buffs around and charging into something juicy, takes more firepower to kill than most would be happy about for the 250 or so points it costs etc. etc.

Not sure if it will be super "competitive" but I'd run a paired down seer council in 1850 games just to see what shakes loose. Could end up a 300 point dud, could end up the harbingers of the endtimes, either way you still have enough points left to put some more eggs in other baskets.

This is rather silly: almost any unit combined with a 'super character' (ie unique) is going to be 500 points.

[DarkLink]

I scoff at high point values. I took 15 Paladins, Draigo, Coteaz, and a Dreadknight to a 1750 tournament, and if I had killed one more DA bike in my last game I would have tabled my opponent and won best overall. That one guy happened to be sitting on an objective, though... I told my opponent we should tell the judge that one of us had won (he was in the running, too, and actually had a few more points than me), and then split the prize money.

[Power Klawz]

This is rather silly: almost any unit combined with a 'super character' (ie unique) is going to be 500 points.

Well you're rather silly, how 'bout dem apples? huh? huh?

I'm actually rather fond of high cost steamroller units myself, I just don't think 1850 points is the right environment for them. I guess its all a matter of how many threats and varying tactics and counter-tactics you can employ based on your list. The seer council is actually quite versatile and can likely perform quite a few key battlefield roles.

Is it versatile, powerful and survivable enough to constitute a quarter to a third of your list?

Well I won't say it isn't possible, just that I think it remains to be seen in competitive play for me. It seems like a few people have all ready taken this unit for a spin, it'd be great to get as much information on their usage as possible, a battle report featuring a tooled up seer council would be great.

Conventional wisdom dictates that the Deathstar unit has been destroyed by the shifting metagame, however you'll still have a few nefarious ne'er do wells in black robes with bad skin that will try and resurrect it, I'm just on the side of the Ewoks here hoping that such excess never returns to the game as an indefatigable, immortal unit that wins games simply because its reached a certain critical mass points wise and the rules dictate that it needs must triumph.

See the aforementioned 15 paladins list for example.

Although coming in at a svelte 450 or so points for 5 'locks and a seer with bikes does it even classify as a deathstar? Its not exactly a Farsight bomb in proportion is it? Much closer to a 10 man termie squad in point cost... minus a powerful character. The only problem being for the prices of 10 macho terminator bros you get 6 skinny elf dudes. Of course those skinny elf dudes are blasting around on suped up jetbikes and throwing lightning out of their eyeholes so who's to say which unit is more efficacious without trying it out?

Basically I'm not inherently against the concept, in fact it sounds fun as all get out. I just don't think it will have the chops to take on more competitive lists and competent players, however that thought is mostly based on prejudice and hearsay at this point so put all the salt you want on that opinionburger.

[Caitsidhe]

I scoff at high point values. I took 15 Paladins, Draigo, Coteaz, and a Dreadknight to a 1750 tournament, and if I had killed one more DA bike in my last game I would have tabled my opponent and won best overall. That one guy happened to be sitting on an objective, though... I told my opponent we should tell the judge that one of us had won (he was in the running, too, and actually had a few more points than me), and then split the prize money.

I sure wish I'd draw a Draigo-Star in my 1850 Tournaments. I'll take that action all day long. :D

[chicop76]

I sure wish I'd draw a Draigo-Star in my 1850 Tournaments. I'll take that action all day long. :D

I would love that. My two early waring riptides would love it. My 3 railsides would love it. Not to mention 40 sniping kroot would love it. I figure a heavy stracannon and flame wraiths woul love that too.

[DarkLink]

Kroot snipers suck against Paladins, except as screening units. Riptides aren't that great either, actually. Draigo laughs at them. Though, ironically, I've had a Riptide kill Draigo in assault, because he's only AP3.

[Power Klawz]

Kroot snipers suck against Paladins, except as screening units. Riptides aren't that great either, actually. Draigo laughs at them. Though, ironically, I've had a Riptide kill Draigo in assault, because he's only AP3.

Kroot snipers only suck against paladins about as much as anything sucks against paladins, they don't have any inherent weakness against them that other rank and file troop types don't have, not really understanding your summation there.

Also there are exactly 3 things outside of apocalypse that Draigo doesn't immediately chump. They are (in no particular order) Mr. Swarmy, 'Baddon-has-no-arms, and that wingless Bloodthirster who one time slapped Khorne. Everyone and everything else does not go toe to toe with with The D and expect to walk away. I'd think at this point that would be common knowledge.

Not really understanding what army-related epeen waving has to do with jetbiking seer councils though, unless that army-related epeen waving is relegated to eldar-peen about jetbiking seer councils.

Can we put Eldrad on a jetbike? I haven't picked up this codex yet and I can't remember any specific about him. 10 man 'lock squad with eldrad would be hilarious.

[chicop76]

40 kroot snipers at bs 6 will hit 34 times. 5 rends equal 4 wounds and 2 more wounds = 3 dead paladins and another round 2 more so minus 1 squad there

2 riptides = 2 strength 8 ap 2 pieplates. Due to marker lights we assume hit let's say 5 each large blast. That would be 6 dead paladins. After that the riptides can swith to 3 strength 7 ap 2 shots. Not to mention any fusion or plasma.

Throw in 3 rail gun broadsides that's 2 more dead paladins.

Which leaves you like 2 paladins and the special bunch left. However if you do the draigo in the front crap than I'll kill off the other squads and than go for draigo.

This isn't even equal the points you are puting out and they are capable of dealling with your army. Pathfiders and skyray support with an ethereal is enough. Get too close 30 shot kroot or 36 shots from fire warriors.

Oh don't forget a an Iron Arm Swarmlord with endurance and d3 attacks.

Yeah that is why you take wraitguard with strength 4 ap 1 flamers and boost them with your council to +2 saves and hope for doom. If you put the 5 guard in a serpent and drop them off in front or at an angle mr D is not the closet jump out and hopefully hit 5 guys each. If doom doesn't go off that's 24 hits rounded down with 12 wounds killing 4 paladins. If he decdes to assault and if you have all your guys that's 10 hits 5 wounds which is killing the last guy and wounding draigo. As long as you can give them +2 saves you can tie you draigo all game long.

[DarkLink]

[QUOTE=Power Klawz;314819]Kroot snipers only suck against paladins about as much as anything sucks against paladins, they don't have any inherent weakness against them that other rank and file troop types don't have, not really understanding your summation there.

You can literally fire 40 Kroot snipers at 10 Paladins all game, and you probably won't even make your points back. He claimed 40 Kroot were a good counter. They're not. They can be a pain if you bubble-wrap with them, though.



Also there are exactly 3 things outside of apocalypse that Draigo doesn't immediately chump. They are (in no particular order) Mr. Swarmy, 'Baddon-has-no-arms, and that wingless Bloodthirster who one time slapped Khorne. Everyone and everything else does not go toe to toe with with The D and expect to walk away. I'd think at this point that would be common knowledge.

I mean that he laughs at their guns. Draigo's there to tank wounds, not win challenges. See below.



Not really understanding what army-related epeen waving has to do with jetbiking seer councils though, unless that army-related epeen waving is relegated to eldar-peen about jetbiking seer councils.

Can we put Eldrad on a jetbike? I haven't picked up this codex yet and I can't remember any specific about him. 10 man 'lock squad with eldrad would be hilarious.

No, only regular farseers. It's also a mere 15pts, which is an awesome deal for T4, 3+ armor, and moving fast.


40 kroot snipers at bs 6 will hit 34 times. 5 rends equal 4 wounds and 2 more wounds = 3 dead paladins and another round 2 more so minus 1 squad there

Your math is off. 40 Kroot at BS5 hits 33.3 times. 5.6 Rends equals 2.5 wounds (you might want to read up on the Paladin rules, you're forgetting FNP and Invulnerable saves, and that's if I don't take it on Draigo, which is where the Rends will probably go). After armor and FNP, you'll do about 1.2 more wounds, which will go on a regular Paladin, whom I'll swap out so the wounds will get distributed across the course of the game. And since you're talking about at least two different squads, again I can move my models so that the wounds are going to different places, so you're just wounding Paladins, not killing them. That'll also cut the wounds your Broadsides and Riptides do in half, because they're potentially hitting wounded Paladins so the ID doesn't matter.



2 riptides = 2 strength 8 ap 2 pieplates. Due to marker lights we assume hit let's say 5 each large blast. That would be 6 dead paladins. After that the riptides can swith to 3 strength 7 ap 2 shots. Not to mention any fusion or plasma.

You'll never hit more than 2 Paladins with the blasts, unless your opponent sucks or there are some extenuating circumstances. If you spread out to full 2" coherency, a large blast can only ever hit two models. It's pretty easy to do, and conveniently since Dragiowing doesn't have many models to move, you can take your time moving them just right.

So that's 4 Str 8 hits, which get taken on Draigo. Between 3++ and 5+ FNP (Draigo is T5) for a grand total of .74 wounds. Even if you do dodge him, you're killing 1.1 Paladins a turn, which certainly isn't bad, but I can live with that for a couple turns until I hit combat.

And if you're within range for plasma, and especially fusion, I'm probably in range of you. Paladins tend to put the hurt on whatever they shoot, though with 2+ armor they won't quite kill a Riptide on average dice. That'll depend on the rest of my army. If I have, say, a Dreadknight, he's chasing a Riptide and soaking up a pretty good amount of firepower, and he'll flamer the crap out of your Kroot and/or Fire Warriors while he's at it. You'll probably kill him, but there goes a round of shooting for you that isn't directed at my Paladins.



Throw in 3 rail gun broadsides that's 2 more dead paladins.

Again, you'll hit Draigo. That's another .54 wounds. Also, since Broadsides are static, you can't maneuver around him like you might be able to with the Riptide. Also, who actually takes railgun Broadsides? People seem crazy about the missile Broadsides, which Paladins couldn't care less about.



Which leaves you like 2 paladins and the special bunch left. However if you do the draigo in the front crap than I'll kill off the other squads and than go for draigo.

Draigo is always up front. With an AP3 sword, that's pretty much what he's good for. And if you're not shooting my Paladins, that's great, 'cause there's really not a whole lot else to shoot.



This isn't even equal the points you are puting out and they are capable of dealling with your army. Pathfiders and skyray support with an ethereal is enough. Get too close 30 shot kroot or 36 shots from fire warriors.

Two Riptides, 40 Kroot, ~5 Path Finders and three Broadsides are, what, 980pts, give or take a little? That's actually almost exactly what 10 Paladins and Draigo cost (550 for 10 Paladins, 80 for 4 Psycannons, 75 for Apothecary, 25 for Brotherhood Banner, 20 for a Warding Stave, 275 for Draigo, about 1005pts exactly) you're not touching the Paladins until you get through Draigo first. Throw in the Skyray and an Ethreal and now I've got Coteaz for psychic buffs and stuff (ignores Cover, reroll to hit, 4++, reroll all Seize the Initiaitve etc). So really, your 1000+pts is fighting 275 for the first three or four rounds of the game before you can reliably kill him, if you want to go that way with your argument.

Aside from the Riptides, your list is pretty static. You deploy, I use Draigo's Grand Strategy to get scout, and Move/Run for the first turn or two. By the end of turn two, I'm in your deployment zone, still with most of my squad left, ready to walk through your army in assault.

Beyond that, we can't really predict any more, because we don't know what the terrain is, we don't know what the rest of our respective armies are, etc. But people tend to forget how tough Dragio and 10 Paladins are. Certainly not an auto-win for me, the game might end before I can kill all your dudes, but the point is, I wouldn't dismiss it so quickly.

Also, I've played this game before, or at least a pretty similar one. This isn't speculation on my part, it's experience.

[chicop76]

Not like the riptide will just sit there. Also the kroot can move as well, not sniping if they do.

Atleast 2 guys how so. The base invm I am thinking 1" bases and not term bases I forgot if you do a line dance it's only two, so your point is valid there. Makes it easier to get around draigo honestly.

Basically it's 20 terminators with feel no pain. Unless they hit with strength 8 or higher. Last I dealt with that I just shot it to death with weight of fire. Not as bad as runic charm with space wolves use to be.

I thought you said you was going to deep strike them instead of scout moving them up. In that case I'll just shoot and run away, tag you it.

[DarkLink]

Hah, deepstriking Paladins in front of two Riptides would be stupid.

But in general, I've found that Paladins might be the GK's best matchup against Tau. Tau kind of hard counter a lot of GK lists, but Paladins can shrug off so much firepower that unless the Tau player really designs his list to spam Str8+ AP1/2, it's a pretty fair fight. I don't like the new Tau, though. They're just not fun to play against, like the old leafblower style lists. You just sit there and roll dice and pick up models, without much actual tactics or anything fun happening.

[chicop76]

Hah, deepstriking Paladins in front of two Riptides would be stupid.

But in general, I've found that Paladins might be the GK's best matchup against Tau. Tau kind of hard counter a lot of GK lists, but Paladins can shrug off so much firepower that unless the Tau player really designs his list to spam Str8+ AP1/2, it's a pretty fair fight. I don't like the new Tau, though. They're just not fun to play against, like the old leafblower style lists. You just sit there and roll dice and pick up models, without much actual tactics or anything fun happening.


I agree. I kinda starting to not really want to play with them like my guard. Although guard was funner to play since I had a bunch of chimera's spreading plasma and melta love. Go to love suicide demobombs from vendettas. In a way making vendettas flyers in a way nerf that unit. It stoped turn one meltas in the face.

Anyway I liked Tau since it is my first army. The update makes them kinda boring and less options. Being more streamlines makes it more spam list with less uniqueness.

I do normally play strength 8 spam, but half of it is seeker missles. Since I run two skyrays. I could tailer them to beat that list, but I rather say what I normally play. Anyone can tailer to beat x list. I move up with my tau and slowly fall back. This way I get more rapid fire shots in. I use my riptides for cover and let them get all the assaults. For the most part I noticed 70 rapid fire overwatch shots is nasty. Especailly if I get a few markerlight hits in.

I do like 6 th edition which in several games I used the ethereal power to run shoot. Marker lights cancel the snap shooting. Also gtg a lot more often due to lights. Go to love kroot in area terrain that's woods. If I can I try to skirt the 15" mark. After rapid fire and all my shooting the units that's close is blown away. Most impressive displays so far is 9 plague drones with fnp, it will not die, and +3 invulnerable saves. I blew it away and with 60 hounds. Didn't kill all 60 but left 10 alive which all died to over watch.

[Tynskel]

I am confused: boring and less options?

don't you mean exciting and more options?
There's tons of stuff with the Tau. Try taking different things, and not the net lists.

[chicop76]

I am confused: boring and less options?

don't you mean exciting and more options?
There's tons of stuff with the Tau. Try taking different things, and not the net lists.


Umm. You mean the list I put on the net. I haven't take net list at all. Let me break down what I have in tau. Remember I been playing Tau since they cam out.

2 Aunshi
3 O'Shova
2 Anglar Prok
5 Ethereals
18 Crisissuits
14 old stealth suits( the metal ones)
100+ kroot
30 Kroot hounds
5 krootox
12 vespids
Sold Shadowsun
Sold 3 of the fast attack vehicles
18 pathfinders( metal)
6 rail pathfinders ( metal)
60 firewarriors
9 rail head old broadsides
2 forge world commander with twin plasma and big shield
1 forgeworld railside with missiles
2 riptides
16 shield drones
50+ gun drones
2 skyrays
3 hammer heads
6 more probably devilfish find a new one every day
2 forgeworld marker drones
Yeah that's about it
Oh
6 sniper drones(metal)
2 spotters(metal)

I never bothered couting the gun drones but I know I can run 3 full gun drone squads rather easy. I know it's a lot

I can say I eve played 2k of my tau vs 2k of my tau before.

I played mostly kroot, vespids, gosh I played everything , but the space pope.

I almost forgot I have these too

Longstrike
Darkstrider

I may or my not get a fireblade. If he has a marker drone I mightget him.

I played many differant combos and list I made tx to army bulider which was updated the 13th or 15th of last month. Befor than I was writting list down.

I will give you an example of what I am talking about.

Pg. 98 body guard

3 support systems/ ranged
Signature systems

With 3 slots I can choose from 7 weapons and 10 support systems. Which usually means 2 weapons and one support. Not always

Than I only can get one signature, which means after awhile you limited or can get anymore after a certain point.

I have 8 choices to choose from. 3 of them is almost why are you not taking these. The others are more ok. It's nice.

Now I grab my old Tau codex

Pg. 32 body guard team 3 battlesuit weapons or support, may select additional items, including special gear.

0n pg 25 I am limited 100 pts from the wargear list, but weapons and support does not count towards the 100 points.

7 weapons, 10 support systems, 12 wargear, with 9 items being special issue

Let's go further stimulant injector, target lock, drone controller for the most part didn't take up a slot like it does now, so I can take all 3 and still have my 3 slots.

Multi tracker and sunfilter is free now, but at what cost.


I forgot to mention the vehicle nerf. Actually I didn't but was trying to avoid it.

1. No longer shoots as fast vehicles. That means skyray can fire one markerlight at full bs if it moves, while with multitracker it could fire all weapons if it moved 6"

2. Triple points for a +1 cover save from a +2 cover save.

I can go all day into Tau nerfs
Aun'Shi lost his ability to lower attacks from a charging unit. He was in the 3rd edition codex.

Kroot lost 1 attack and is now strength 3 over 4.

It just goes on and on.

Not saying Tau didn't get buffed, but we did get a lot of nerfs.

[Aramel]

I played an alliance game recently (6k per side) and my 2k list included: A jetcouncil with 2 Farseers and 10 Warlocks, 2 squads of 3 windrider bikes, 2 squads of 5 Warp spiders, a Nightwing, Fire Prism, 6 Reapers with exarch behind a defence line with quad gun and 3 War Walkers with double scatter lasers. When rolling for farseer powers I did not get Fortune or Doom, but managed to get all of the others between the two plus prescience on one. Menwhile 2 warlocks got protect, 1 got Renew, 3 got Empower and 4 I switched to conceal because I managed to roll 5 four times.

Initially I assumed that no having Fortune would be the end of the jetcouncil. But we started with night fighting and my ally (Ultramarines/ Dark Angels) managed to steal the initiative, so by the time it came to she shooting phase these boys have a 2+ armour and cover save (from >12" away). In total the council wiped out a squadron of three Lheman Russ Battle tanks, a Soul Grinder and 5 plague marines. So in the end they barely made their points kill wise, but managed to soak up a ton of firepower, neutralized most of said firepower and got us line-breaker. I lost 5 warlocks by the end of the game.

Despite the low ld, I think my warlocks failed tovcast 3 times, and it was never terribly critical. I also rolled a 12 with one Farseer, so I got to use the "once per game" runes of witnessing. The better armour and cover helped a lot and compensated for the loss of Fortune nicely. Placing a farseer in fromt and healing wounds off is also a decent poor man's fortune. Also str 5 witchblades...are amazing...that soul grinder ate something like 7 pens and several glances. Besides soaking wounds up though the Farseers were pretty superfluous sadly, though a guided Nightwing is amazing (and burned a Helldrake out of the sky).

Overall I was pretty pleased by the unit, although it is very easy to take down by (1) snipers and (2) anybody that can shoot you before you can cast powers. I also did not feel like I lacked for other units, will have to play some 1v1 games at 2k though obviously. Not bad for a first game!

[rle68]

Hah, deepstriking Paladins in front of two Riptides would be stupid.

But in general, I've found that Paladins might be the GK's best matchup against Tau. Tau kind of hard counter a lot of GK lists, but Paladins can shrug off so much firepower that unless the Tau player really designs his list to spam Str8+ AP1/2, it's a pretty fair fight. I don't like the new Tau, though. They're just not fun to play against, like the old leafblower style lists. You just sit there and roll dice and pick up models, without much actual tactics or anything fun happening.

Tau player really designs his list to spam Str8+ AP1/2, and i know 4 tau players myself included that do exactly that

[chicop76]

Tau player really designs his list to spam Str8+ AP1/2, and i know 4 tau players myself included that do exactly that

I thought 3 riptides would be a bit much. 3 pie pie plates are nice.

@aramel: awesme that worked out for you.

With leadership 8 I have the same issue with deamons on my Slaanesh hearlds and I get their powers off pretty often. That is why I am not paying attention to the leadership complaints. Although perils really hurts.

I would imagine they would do well against armour it's not melts, but it's a bunch of lascannon type shots at point blank range.

I would imagine the biggest worry is static fire more than heavy weapons bearing down on a council.

It's really good to hear that your council did well even due to bad rolling. The 5 conceals is still helpful since you can grant conceal to you bikes near by.

[Aramel]

Yeah volume of fire will take down most of anything. Which is why the rest of the list is designed to take care of massed infantry. The lance shot on the prism and AP 3 large blast are really nice. Also spiders are FAST. They made short work or rhinos and Marines alike, before warping behind cover. War Walkers decimated Nurgle Drones and the reapers easily made their points back. Even a unit of wind riders managed to put 2 wounds on a T10 Great Unclean one thanks to bladestorm!

On a final note, plague marines with a 4+ save are much easier to deal with ;). While I would never fight terminators with an unfortuned Council, at least now we are less likely to be tar pitted by them.

[chicop76]

Yeah volume of fire will take down most of anything. Which is why the rest of the list is designed to take care of massed infantry. The lance shot on the prism and AP 3 large blast are really nice. Also spiders are FAST. They made short work or rhinos and Marines alike, before warping behind cover. War Walkers decimated Nurgle Drones and the reapers easily made their points back. Even a unit of wind riders managed to put 2 wounds on a T10 Great Unclean one thanks to bladestorm!

On a final note, plague marines with a 4+ save are much easier to deal with ;). While I would never fight terminators with an unfortuned Council, at least now we are less likely to be tar pitted by them.


The warlocks seems to be actually good if you think about it. The more I look at the Farseer it's probably best to dump all his powers into Divination.

Not saying weight of fire can't. As a Daemon playing fought under the cover of 150 laspistols and 100+ rapid fire Tau blasters and still have a decent amout of guys and destroyed both armies. I think it's the 2 skullcannons and Grinder I usually run and +3 invulnerable saving hounds is the reason why I think I tend to do soo well and a ton of psychic powers doesn't help.

I wish the spirt seer can ride a bike. It would be helpful for more telepathy and options. 3 Divination and 3 telepathy rolls would be really good. Invisibility on the council would really help in combat.