Eldar Codex: So, What Do You Think Of It?

[Xenith]

My question is can you give it conceal before interceptor fire upon it. A +3 cover save would help it out.

Conceal is cast on the unit the warlock is in. Try invisibility perhaps?



"First game I purposely didn't take it out because I wanted to see just how bad it *could* be"

"I was like: this thing sucks compared to the planes I already have."

Not realising that a quad gun may be pretty efficient at the role it was designed for (Taking out planes) is a pretty poor excuse for hating the unit, telling everyone how much it sucks, and selling your own.

[daboarder]

It was anything BUT ragequit. I was like "this thing sucks compared to the planes I already have." The kid I was playing against was like "You want to sell it to me?" and I said "Sure."

After two games, you sold a brand new model at far bellow the price you bought it? Thats pretty much the definition of ragequit.

[Onemeanduck]

Used it twice. Both times it predictable died before it was able to do anything.

Sold the model to a kid in the store on the spot for $30.

Worthless trash.

Damn, I wish you played in my area.. I would so buy the crap you can't make work from you...

As for the crimson hunter, I have made that tank the most feared flyer in my area... So damn nasty... Csm can't touch it, it at least kills something before necrons shoot it down... I mean even vs guard I force them to change the way they play... Lets look at anti flyer weapons..

Aegis quad cannon: since when has an immobile weapon platform been a problem for the fastest army in the universe??? you should be killing this ASAP anyways. It shreds war walkers, serpents, pretty much any tank we have... You play an army of fragile hard hitting stuff... And omg an antiaircraft gun is good at killing aircraft... Worst argument ever...

Necrons.... Ya they kill stuff, no interceptor means you get to shoot first, hug the table edges, I have had it stay alive just fine

Csm: they can't touch this. The dragons should never be able to catch it and quad gun is an immobile weapon platform....

Guard flyers are a pain but easily out maneuvered.

You can't expect it to survive every game and destroy half you opponents army... But it's good enough I use it every game.
Eldar is a hard army to use but it rewards intelligence big time... But please keep selling your stuff cause your making us good elf players look bad...

[Defenestratus]

After two games, you sold a brand new model at far bellow the price you bought it? Thats pretty much the definition of ragequit.

In order to be a ragequit - there has to be rage. If anything it was "disappointmentquit".


As for the crimson hunter, I have made that tank the most feared flyer in my area... So damn nasty... Csm can't touch it, it at least kills something before necrons shoot it down... I mean even vs guard I force them to change the way they play... Lets look at anti flyer weapons..

Aegis quad cannon: since when has an immobile weapon platform been a problem for the fastest army in the universe??? you should be killing this ASAP anyways. It shreds war walkers, serpents, pretty much any tank we have... You play an army of fragile hard hitting stuff... And omg an antiaircraft gun is good at killing aircraft... Worst argument ever...

Necrons.... Ya they kill stuff, no interceptor means you get to shoot first, hug the table edges, I have had it stay alive just fine

Csm: they can't touch this. The dragons should never be able to catch it and quad gun is an immobile weapon platform....

Guard flyers are a pain but easily out maneuvered.

You can't expect it to survive every game and destroy half you opponents army... But it's good enough I use it every game.
Eldar is a hard army to use but it rewards intelligence big time... But please keep selling your stuff cause your making us good elf players look bad...

Here's an experiment. Try proxying the CH as a nightwing and see how much less you have to care about any of that.

I don't care about quad guns unless I have flyers - and even then, I don't care about them when I'm using nightwings and phoenixes. There are much greater fish to fry than a two autocannons in most armies and I'd rather devote my resources to killing those threats than killing it just to keep my one overpriced flyer alive.

as for fortification and terrain placement - I'm not having that discussion because thats about the most dickish thing that you could possibly do - and one of the reasons I don't play tournaments since that kind of thing is deemed acceptable in that environment.

Where'd DrLove42? His article this morning was spot-on on the front page.


But please keep selling your stuff cause your making us good elf players look bad...

I still haven't lost with the new book. But then again, I didn't really lose that much with the old one either. Being a good space elf player myself, I can recognize which units are worth it, and which ones stink.

[Deadlift]

Not really impressed, but it looks more playable than the previous codex so I'm not really that disappointed. I seriously doubt they'll be the next power codex, though, not by a long shot.

Non of the 6th edition are really, would you agree ? Maybe this is the direction now. Or just that we haven't had a Ward codex yet. (Besides Iyanden)

[LeeW]

i like the eldar codex but still haven't used it though. Laser lock i think is awesome, think my war walkers will have 1 scatter laser and as most of the players i know field marines i'll be taking lots of star cannons and bright lances for land raiders (as i haven't played 6th ed game yet do lances still count tanks armour over 12 as 12?), the idea of guardians moving then running followed by shooting is awesome even better when they have a heavy weapon platform, shame the star cannon doesn't have a blast template though

[cebalrai]

Non of the 6th edition are really, would you agree ? Maybe this is the direction now. Or just that we haven't had a Ward codex yet. (Besides Iyanden)


The power codexes are the leftover 5e ones. I think we'll see a lot more balance and a better game moving forward.

[magickbk]

Defenestratus, all of these points are things you brought up before it was released, saying the FW NW was better. I'm confused as to why you bought one given the fact that you already didn't like it, and then sold it because it underperformed to your expectations. The only reason to buy a model that you don't like the rules for is to paint it or for display only, in which case you would keep it.

I won't start up the argument about not everyone using Forge World everywhere, which is a firestorm on its own, but not taking FW into account, the Crimson Hunter is arguably the best flyer out there. Not everyone uses FW, and for those people, the value of the different Flyers looks a lot different than it does to FW-using players.

[Demonus]

Well I see lots of responses for dealing with Quad guns, which is fine (except for terrain blocking which is one of the cheesiest things in the brb and our group refuses to do that), but what about other fliers, when you have gone first? Aside from a dragon that may not be able to vector strike, every other flier should kill the CH the turn it comes in, due to av10 and only a 5+ jink. Dont get me wrong, I love its firepower, but I just think mine will sit on the shelf unless Im playing Space Wolves or Dark Eldar.

[Defenestratus]

Defenestratus, all of these points are things you brought up before it was released, saying the FW NW was better. I'm confused as to why you bought one given the fact that you already didn't like it, and then sold it because it underperformed to your expectations. The only reason to buy a model that you don't like the rules for is to paint it or for display only, in which case you would keep it.

I won't start up the argument about not everyone using Forge World everywhere, which is a firestorm on its own, but not taking FW into account, the Crimson Hunter is arguably the best flyer out there. Not everyone uses FW, and for those people, the value of the different Flyers looks a lot different than it does to FW-using players.

Reason I bought it is because I wanted to try the hemlock which is rather unique amongst the Eldar flyers overall whose role can't really be replicated by the FW fliers. I do like the "psychological warfare" idea of the Hemlock but I feel that because its so fragile (must be within 12" of the enemy to be able to use - rapid fire bolter range) and the fact that the other weapons are lackluster, its just not worth the points cost unfortunately. I WANTED the hemlock to work - and I still have one model unassembled that I might throw into a mixed airforce wing in the future.

The CH isn't the best flyer out there by a longshot. The flying pastries, the stormraven, the valk, the heldrake and arguably the stormtalon are all better.

[Kirsten]

New Eldar codex is absolutely amazing, massive changes to the way the army plays, big boosts all round, easily the best 6th edition book out by a country mile.

[DarkLink]

Non of the 6th edition are really, would you agree ? Maybe this is the direction now. Or just that we haven't had a Ward codex yet. (Besides Iyanden)

Tau are a power codex. And the Heldrake singlehandedly makes the CSM one, too, though you have to ally in stuff for the rest of the list.


Edit: I haven't faced a Crimson Hunter yet, but I've played against enough AV10 flyers to know that I can reliably kill them at my leisure, and I've been playing Draigowing lately which is pretty terrible at killing Flyers. I have zero skyfire and a relatively limited number of shots. But against the Ork flyers, when I decide to kill them, they die. Eldar Flyers are no more survivable, but they are definitely a higher target priority, so I'd make sure to kill them right away.

[Defenestratus]

And the Heldrake singlehandedly makes the CSM one

And the heldrake isn't a power unit without the FAQ.

[40kGamer]

If the CH sucks because you face a boatload of FW anti-flyer stuff every match then you must also say that all flyers suck.

Well the unbalanced carryovers from 5th and the Heldrake are still nasty pieces of work. :)

I picked up a CH because I'm a completist and also to use in fun basement games... but it is simply not an 'all comer' or 'tournament level' flyer.

[DarkLink]

And the heldrake isn't a power unit without the FAQ.

Yet the FAQ is there. And now, Sorcerer+Cultists+3 Heldrakes+Allies is the order of the day.

[Caitsidhe]

Yet the FAQ is there. And now, Sorcerer+Cultists+3 Heldrakes+Allies is the order of the day.

Hardly the order of the day. :) One could do this but it would leave a lot of good stuff on the shelf which I'm not certain are easily replaced by the allies. I'm also not convinced three Helldrakes is the best choice since there is a point at which you are looking at diminishing returns and bad match ups.

[40kGamer]

So... is anyone having much success with Harlequins? I love these guys but after starting to play the new dex I'm having a hard time justifying their points in an all comer's list.

[Sainhann]

New Eldar codex is absolutely amazing, massive changes to the way the army plays, big boosts all round, easily the best 6th edition book out by a country mile.

So with 6th Edition being the Edition of the Flyer & big *** model both of the Eldar ones are lackluster to say the least.

The Flyer is only AV10 so will get shot to pieces by almost anything.

The Wraithknight well over cost and lacks Firepower, sure it has two strength 10 weapons but that is just shots needing 3+ to hit. It can be killed or just tied up in Close Combat.

The Flyer will come on the table maybe get lucky with it shooting and then will get shot to pieces or it will have to jink and become useless.

Plus Guardians still have a short range weapon, Farseer's and Warlock can no longer pick their powers. Fire Dragons have gone up in point cost. Banshee's still have no way to assaulting without having to take a round of shooting.

But you will see Wave Serpent spam.

[DarkLink]

Hardly the order of the day. :) One could do this but it would leave a lot of good stuff on the shelf which I'm not certain are easily replaced by the allies. I'm also not convinced three Helldrakes is the best choice since there is a point at which you are looking at diminishing returns and bad match ups.

Regardless, there's a reason why CSM was the most common army at Wargames Con. And it wasn't because they are a solid but well balanced codex.



The Wraithknight well over cost and lacks Firepower, sure it has two strength 10 weapons but that is just shots needing 3+ to hit. It can be killed or just tied up in Close Combat.

Only if you play stupid with it.

[cebalrai]

So with 6th Edition being the Edition of the Flyer & big *** model both of the Eldar ones are lackluster to say the least.

The Flyer is only AV10 so will get shot to pieces by almost anything.

The Wraithknight well over cost and lacks Firepower, sure it has two strength 10 weapons but that is just shots needing 3+ to hit. It can be killed or just tied up in Close Combat.

The Flyer will come on the table maybe get lucky with it shooting and then will get shot to pieces or it will have to jink and become useless.

Plus Guardians still have a short range weapon, Farseer's and Warlock can no longer pick their powers. Fire Dragons have gone up in point cost. Banshee's still have no way to assaulting without having to take a round of shooting.

But you will see Wave Serpent spam.


I disagree with your opinion on most of these items. One thing worth saying though is that I'm doing exceedingly well with Guardians, Warlocks, and Fire Dragons that no longer die too much against explosions they caused and small arms fire.

[daboarder]

Well I see lots of responses for dealing with Quad guns, which is fine (except for terrain blocking which is one of the cheesiest things in the brb and our group refuses to do that), but what about other fliers, when you have gone first? Aside from a dragon that may not be able to vector strike, every other flier should kill the CH the turn it comes in, due to av10 and only a 5+ jink. Dont get me wrong, I love its firepower, but I just think mine will sit on the shelf unless Im playing Space Wolves or Dark Eldar.

Simple. Use intelligence. Stick the flier in a position such that tbe enemy has to make a difficult choise if they want to get it.

Against the heldrake place the CH so that if your opponent wants to VS it he can't flame your troops.

Against anything else sit on the opponents table edge so that he is compromising his flier to get at it.

Next turn you vector dancer to anoth such position and blow the enemy to pieces.

You can practically fly the Ch o parallel to your own board edge

[Sainhann]

Only if you play stupid with it.

So what are you going to do with it sit back with it and just use it two shots.

Against my 2000 point Imperial Guard army which is 190 models 186 being Infanty I will not care since in a 6 turn game it might kill 6-8 models.

Sure it will target my four Chimeras first but it can only kill one at a time.

Hand to Hand is out of the question since with 186 Infantry models I have troops to spare.

So I let my 10 Snipers take popshots at it while the rest of the army kills off stuff.

No, a Wraithknight does not scare me bacause I know that what it can do is very limited and when you play low vehicle armies like I do I could careless if it destroys 2-3 out of the four that I have.

The best Firepower build for it means spending more for it. Standard means it not going to kill alot with it two shots per turn.

[daboarder]

So what are you going to do with it sit back with it and just use it two shots.

Against my 2000 point Imperial Guard army which is 190 models 186 being Infanty I will not care since in a 6 turn game it might kill 6-8 models.

Sure it will target my four Chimeras first but it can only kill one at a time.

Hand to Hand is out of the question since with 186 Infantry models I have troops to spare.

So I let my 10 Snipers take popshots at it while the rest of the army kills off stuff.

No, a Wraithknight does not scare me bacause I know that what it can do is very limited and when you play low vehicle armies like I do I could careless if it destroys 2-3 out of the four that I have.

The best Firepower build for it means spending more for it. Standard means it not going to kill alot with it two shots per turn.

Or you know, against another opponent it spends the game nuking everything from land raiders to MC's to characters, not dying due to the 5+ cover and basically castrating the opponents army. You can't argue that a unit is bad because it is being used badly or because of a single match up.

[Sainhann]

I disagree with your opinion on most of these items. One thing worth saying though is that I'm doing exceedingly well with Guardians, Warlocks, and Fire Dragons that no longer die too much against explosions they caused and small arms fire.

I did not say that you can't do bad with Guardians only that they have a very short weapon range with their weapon.

But I want to know what you disagree with.

The Flyer is only AV10 and anything that is strength 4 or better can bring it down. Plus it is not cheap and there are far better choices for Fast Attack. For a few more points you can field an unit of 10 Warp Spiders or for less points you can field an unit of 8.

Either way you are getting far more shots than what the CH brings to the table.

As for the Fire Dragon they are expensive and to make them work you do need to give them a Wave Serpent or Falcon either way before any upgrade that is more than 220 points for just 6 models.

[Sainhann]

Or you know, against another opponent it spends the game nuking everything from land raiders to MC's to characters, not dying due to the 5+ cover and basically castrating the opponents army. You can't argue that a unit is bad because it is being used badly or because of a single match up.

Why not?

Sure if your Opponent is running with a Land Raider (something I would not do due to it point cost as well) it might get lucky on the first turn and destroy it or take several turns trying to kill it.

You know what you could do that cheaper with a Fire Prism and for 10 more points you can have two of them and they provide far better ability for shooting.

Oh and Snipers are not going to destroy your Fire Prism like they will the Wraithknight. Imperial Guard Snipers are cheap 50 points for 5, hell Eldar Rangers are only 10 points more. Oh Space Marines can get either one as Allies.

[cebalrai]

I did not say that you can't do bad with Guardians only that they have a very short weapon range with their weapon.

1) Movement + re-rollable battle focus run = Guardians have more range than you assume.
2) Also I very successfully run them in Serpents. 6" Serpent move + 6" disembark + re-rollable battle focus + 12" = ~30 inch shooting threat range.

It cannot be overstated, battle trance is wonderful and has to be seen in action to be fully appreciated.


But I want to know what you disagree with.

The Flyer is only AV10 and anything that is strength 4 or better can bring it down. Plus it is not cheap and there are far better choices for Fast Attack. For a few more points you can field an unit of 10 Warp Spiders or for less points you can field an unit of 8.

Either way you are getting far more shots than what the CH brings to the table.

It doesn't compare well to spiders, apples and oranges. But the CH, while fragile, is going to kill Helldrakes and whatever else is in the air. That's what you pay for. It's real fragile, yes. However if it had shrouded or something I think it would be over 200 points. I think a lot of the problem has to do with GW being morons with the first series of flyers it released. They're ridiculously undercosted and they make the current standard look a bit iffy.


As for the Fire Dragon they are expensive and to make them work you do need to give them a Wave Serpent or Falcon either way before any upgrade that is more than 220 points for just 6 models.

This is silly logic though. You don't spend all those points to make Fire Dragons work, you spend all those points to give Dragons an astonishingly good transport that will support them with a tremendous amount of cover fire and make them a much better unit. The new and improved Wave Serpent counts as a buff to Fire Dragons - this is why I think it's so foolish to look at units in isolation.

My Fire Dragons are no longer one-shot honeybees, they're surviving now and even though they take casualties from the attention they garner, they're shooting for 2-3 rounds when they used to not do that. They wear power armor now and benefit tremendously from the rest of the codex being better at taking out the enemies that would have been wiping them out.

Battle focus is also really good for Fire Dragons and their 12" range. Nobody seems to be appreciating this but it's been fantastic for me. Not quite in the 6" melta range? Now you are... Need to fade back after shooting and get behind LOS blocking cover or your Wave Serpent's hull? No problem.

[daboarder]

@Sainhann
Because your arguing that just because it can't WTFPAWNBBQ!! everything its not worth its points.

That's like arguing that the heldrake is bad because it can't hurt main battle tanks or terminators.

Basically a poor craftsman blames his tools

edit: If you want to argue that T8 W6 is bad, what are your thoughts on tyranid MC's? Actually what are your thoughts on ANY OTHER MONSTROUS CREATURE IN THE GAME!

[Sainhann]

1) Movement + re-rollable battle focus run = Guardians have more range than you assume.
2) Also I very successfully run them in Serpents. 6" Serpent move + 6" disembark + re-rollable battle focus + 12" = ~30 inch shooting threat range.

It cannot be overstated, battle trance is wonderful and has to be seen in action to be fully appreciated.

True they can get to a point quickly and unleash hell but most other armies can do this from a distance and not have to end up to close to the enemy.

Sure the new Eldar alpha strike tactic will work great against the current small elite armies but they run up against a horde army it doesn't work to good.

Eldar units are not cheap and achieving the balance in the army will not be easy for many players.

Though some are finding out that while Illic might be okay they are far better off leaving the Pathfinders at home because they are not a good unit. You want Snipers great take some Rangers they are cheap, Pathfinders aren't.

There are some really great units in the Codex but there are some really bad one as well.

[DarkLink]

No, a Wraithknight does not scare me bacause I know that what it can do is very limited and when you play low vehicle armies like I do I could careless if it destroys 2-3 out of the four that I have.

First off, you have an extremely unusual build. The fact that Wraithknights aren't fantabulous against horde IG is hardly an argument for it being bad.

Second, Wraithknights can do a lot more than kill vehicles.

Thirdly, what I mean by playing stupid is that you have a jump MC. It's very fast. If you are stupid enough to let your opponent dictate the terms on which it reaches assault, you're stupid and you'll fail. If you're smart, you'll wipe your opponent's backfield and he won't ever know what hit him until he realized how stupid he was for ignoring the Wraithknight. Or, if your opponent is smart enough to realize the threat, then you can use that to dictate his movement, which can easily allow the rest of your army to win the game. Well worth 240pts.

Fourthly, I'm speaking from experience, not theory. I've played a Dreadknight for a long time, and it is a fantastic unit. It's very fragile, though, which keeps it from being all that good, but when you avoid getting it killed, it can walk through half your opponent's army. Wraithknights are pretty much the same, except they're much tougher. +2W and +2T is a world of difference. Also, I've got a couple friends, including Reecius, who have been playing the Wraithknight extensively and they love it. Their experience with it perfectly matches my predictions of how it would perform on the tabletop, and is directly contradictory to the claims of nay-sayers like you.

Fifthly, I'm pretty sure I'd find a way to make it work, even against your army. What's a typical armylist you might bring?

Edit: Sixthly (I think I'm just making up words now), if you 'could care less' that means that you do care at least a little bit. You probably want 'couldn't care less', because then you don't care at all. :p

[daboarder]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om7O0MFkmpw

[Caitsidhe]

Regardless, there's a reason why CSM was the most common army at Wargames Con. And it wasn't because they are a solid but well balanced codex.

And yet they didn't do particularly well in the final assessment. I never said they were well-balanced. I don't happen to think ANY of the books are particularly well-balanced. How can they be when they aren't done against each other?

[daboarder]

Additionally it couldn't possibly be because there is a huge number of latent CSM armies out there due to 3.5 right? I mean its completely illogical that people wanted to use armies they may not have had a decent reason to use in years, right?

[deinol]

Additionally it couldn't possibly be because there is a huge number of latent CSM armies out there due to 3.5 right? I mean its completely illogical that people wanted to use armies they may not have had a decent reason to use in years, right?

I'm fairly certain the tournament scene doesn't operate anything like this. Note the extreme drop in Space Wolf players over the last year.

[Sainhann]

First off, you have an extremely unusual build. The fact that Wraithknights aren't fantabulous against horde IG is hardly an argument for it being bad.

Fifthly, I'm pretty sure I'd find a way to make it work, even against your army. What's a typical armylist you might bring?

For 2000 points I would have the following

Cdr, & Cmd Section

2 x Sniper Squads

1 x Mech Platoon 4 x Chimeras and 35 Guardsmen no Heavy support weapons Mission Mech Assault all armed with Krak Grenades

1 x Assault Platoon 35 Guardsmen also no Heavy support weapons also armed with Krak Grenades there is also some Special Weapon Sections

1 x Heavy Support Platoon 35 Guardsmen all have Missile Launchers, plus several Heavy weapon sections and Special Weapon Sections

3 x Veteran Squads all equip with Demo so all have Melta Bombs

Preferred Special weapon is the Grenade Launcher works well against both Horde and small Elite armies 19 in the army, plus there is around 20 Flamers then you have the Heavy Weapons, 7 x Demo Charges.

So four vehicles and 186 Guardsmen of which 75 have Krak Grenades & 30 have Melta Bombs.

Lots of Firepower and most of the units can assault Light & Medium vehicles.

There is nothing that is really important in it because everything is just Cannon Fodder.

I do have things that I can easy drop and just might do so just to add in another Sniper Squad and maybe Marbo or another Chimera etc.

It is design to dish out a ton of Firepower while having the bodies to soak up the damage.

So you can see that with this army a model that might have just two high power shots really will not do well. Plus if you go with the version that can put out more Firepower that just might cost you not having something else in the army.

Also with it just having 4 attacks hand-to-hand is not where it wants to be because even my lowly Guardsmen can hurt if their Krak Grenades and the Veterans can destroy it if the Snipers don't.

True no Anti-Flyer support other than mass fire but I would work at destroying the stuff on the ground before going after flyers.

Yup, it is not your normal Imperial Guard army.

[DarkLink]

None of your stuff save the missile launchers and the meltabombs are good against T8, you'd be wasting your firepower. Sure, you might kill it eventually, but you'd be ignoring the rest of the Eldar army in the process so the Eldar player wins. Snipers really aren't all that impressive, it would take them most of the game to kill the Wraithknight.

I'd just shoot your Meltabomb Veterans a little so you'd lose enough attacks that you couldn't threaten the Wraithknight, assuming I even bothered getting close enough to assault them. Krak grenades aren't threatening. Even if you blob and get into one massive combat, it'll be on my terms thanks to my mobility. Which means I'd probably jump out a bunch of stuff and hose down Guardsmen, then assault with my Wraithknight and tie up a quarter of your army until it breaks and I Sweeping Advance it, or the game ends.

Missile Launchers are your only real weapon. But, again, it'll take most of your armies shooting to kill the Wraithknight, depending on how many Missile Launchers you have, and that's shots not directed at my other stuff.

Do you have stuff to make the squads Stubborn? Because if not, the Wraithknight will jump from unit to unit and kill them with Sweeping Advance.

Before I reach assault, I pop a couple Chimera. Not really that big of a deal, but they're your only mobility, and they're not that cheap at 55pts each. Kill a couple vehicles, soak up your entire army's firepower for a turn or two, and the Wraithknight has served its purpose well. But more realistically, you distribute your firepower and my Wraithknight works its way around on a flank and also gets a couple of squads, or ties up a significant portion of your army in the process. If you don't blob, then I walk through your smaller squads with Sweeping Advance. If you do, then I tie up 50+ Guardsmen in an assault that you won't win.

Yeah. I can definitely work with that.

[daboarder]

charge the assault blob with the wraithknight and either ignore them with the rest of your stuff, or join in second to prevent teh flamers overwatching, Job done wraithknight!

[cebalrai]

I don't own a WK but they're doing very well in my gaming group. Simply put a lot of lists aren't well-equipped to kill it as well as WLs/WG. A whole lot of lists struggle against that much high-toughness and if the weapons that can threaten high-T can be taken out early on it can lead to an easy Eldar victory.

That's been my experience with my Wraithseer-WG list, kill the things that can threaten my wraithstuff and then watch my opponent get frustrated as they kill next to nothing every turn.

[Power Klawz]

A naked wraithknight stomps guard so hard... man it'd be amazing to have nothing but foot guard on the other side of the board. Like Godzilla vs Tokyo man.

[Defenestratus]

One thing I've noticed about new Eldar lists that I've seen pop up around the internet is that there's a drop in the rate of ADL's being used.

I like it - as it demonstrates that the mobility-first type lists are really picking up in popularity.

[DrLove42]

I still take an ADL (or EDL...its custom!) because we need the gun. AA is so short on the board. If i could buy just the gun on its own...i would

[Defenestratus]

I still take an ADL (or EDL...its custom!) because we need the gun. AA is so short on the board. If i could buy just the gun on its own...i would

I've found that wave serpents make excellent AA platforms with the added benefit of being able to transport dudes around.

[Learn2Eel]

I'm still debating whether I will do a full on Wraithwing army, personally. I've got my ideal list for 1850 points worked out, but the problem is that after that, there really isn't anywhere to expand except for more of the same. Would be fun though.
For the record, I think a Wraithknight will work wonders if you use it right. That thing is deadly in every phase of the game and is the ultimate fire magnet.

[DarkLink]

charge the assault blob with the wraithknight and either ignore them with the rest of your stuff, or join in second to prevent teh flamers overwatching, Job done wraithknight!

Exactly. Kill a couple of guys and force a morale test every turn, even if they are Stubborn Ld 10, you'll eventually make them run. You're tying up a quarter or more of his army with an eighth of yours. 75 Krak grenades? Wraithknight don't care. You won't get them all into engagement range until a couple of turns of Pile In, and even if you do it still takes like two turns for them to kill the Wraithknight, and that's assuming you have all 75 in one big blob and I don't shoot anything in there to kill some first. Realistically, you're tied up there for most of the game. Awesome job, Wraithknight.

[cebalrai]

Loving firing all my serpent shields during turn 1 night fighting to ignore cover... With almost no threat of retribution.

[rle68]

I've found that wave serpents make excellent AA platforms with the added benefit of being able to transport dudes around.

i found guided war walkers with 2 scatter lasers will kill a flyer per round...have shot down 2 storm ravens and a hell drake so far

[DarkLink]

You must roll really well. A full unit barely does a single hull point to AV12 on average dice, and that's not taking Jink saves into account.

[Sainhann]

None of your stuff save the missile launchers and the meltabombs are good against T8, you'd be wasting your firepower. Sure, you might kill it eventually, but you'd be ignoring the rest of the Eldar army in the process so the Eldar player wins. Snipers really aren't all that impressive, it would take them most of the game to kill the Wraithknight.

I'd just shoot your Meltabomb Veterans a little so you'd lose enough attacks that you couldn't threaten the Wraithknight, assuming I even bothered getting close enough to assault them. Krak grenades aren't threatening. Even if you blob and get into one massive combat, it'll be on my terms thanks to my mobility. Which means I'd probably jump out a bunch of stuff and hose down Guardsmen, then assault with my Wraithknight and tie up a quarter of your army until it breaks and I Sweeping Advance it, or the game ends.

Missile Launchers are your only real weapon. But, again, it'll take most of your armies shooting to kill the Wraithknight, depending on how many Missile Launchers you have, and that's shots not directed at my other stuff.

Do you have stuff to make the squads Stubborn? Because if not, the Wraithknight will jump from unit to unit and kill them with Sweeping Advance.

Before I reach assault, I pop a couple Chimera. Not really that big of a deal, but they're your only mobility, and they're not that cheap at 55pts each. Kill a couple vehicles, soak up your entire army's firepower for a turn or two, and the Wraithknight has served its purpose well. But more realistically, you distribute your firepower and my Wraithknight works its way around on a flank and also gets a couple of squads, or ties up a significant portion of your army in the process. If you don't blob, then I walk through your smaller squads with Sweeping Advance. If you do, then I tie up 50+ Guardsmen in an assault that you won't win.

Yeah. I can definitely work with that.

Thing is I never blob up my squads that is a very good way to lose a lot of models. I also never leave my troops inside of the Chimeras. I treat the Chimeras as mobile terrain, they are there to provide firepower with their Multi-Lasers and Heavy Bolters.

I expect them to get destroyed but until they do and fi they don't blowup they are terrain and LOS blockers.

Plus models with Krak Grenades can hurt the Wraithknight, sure they would need 6's to wound but hell I am more than willing to throw 10 of my Guardsmen into it just to tie it up.

Plus you forgot the 7 Demo Charges and I left out that the Chimera's that carry the Squads all have Hunter Seeker missiles.

But if I faced a Eldar army with a Wraithknight I would not be wasting time shooting it except with the Snipers and some of the heavy support sections. The rest of the army would be busy shooting at the rest of your army and I know what Eldar cost in points and you will have far less models than me.

This list is meant to have a lot of strength 6 shots and that it does. So if I really wanted it dead in one round of shooting I probably could do it. But why waste shots at it when you have other juicy targets to shoot.

But that would be focus on your infantry and vehicles because that is where I can hurt you the most. Sure you can move up and disembark an unit of Dire Avengers and they unleash on a Squad and could most likely kill all of them, hell you could do this to 3-4 squads.

The thing is I would still have 150 guys who will also unleash upon your squads or maybe close assault some of the Wave Serpents if they are in range (which is very likely).

Oh and don't under estimate what Snipers can do to a T8 model, they hit of 3+ and wound on 4+, sure your get your save but they will wound the Wraithknight.

Plus that is my current list and I have things in there point wise that I can very easily drop and upgrade Heavy Bolters to Auto Cannons, or take some Missile Launcher Weapon Sections or add in another squad of Snipers or a couple more Chimeras. Which I could very easily bring the number of models in the army over 200+.

There are 28 units in the list and at best an Eldar army could have around 12-14 in a 2000 point force and more likely less if one of them is a Wraithknight.

Eldar are not cheap and their average cost per unit will be around 150-200 point and with many being over 200 points.

A foot heavy Imperial Guard like I run can lose models because there are more of them. Eldar on other hand can't afford to lose models.

[Sainhann]

A naked wraithknight stomps guard so hard... man it'd be amazing to have nothing but foot guard on the other side of the board. Like Godzilla vs Tokyo man.

Thing is out of 186 Guardsmen 75 of them have stuff that can hurt the Wraithknight and 30 of them have Melta Bombs which can kill it.

Plus it only has the four attacks and the stomp, sure against Guard it will hit on 3+ so it will hit and likely kill some guard. But the rest will attack back with their Krak grenades and it is possible they will wound it as well.

[rle68]

You must roll really well. A full unit barely does a single hull point to AV12 on average dice, and that's not taking Jink saves into account.

3 war walkers with scatter lasers and you only avg 1 hit? i avg 5-9 hits and 3-4 glances.. and one time i killed the storm ravens he was in hover mode .. so he didnt get a jink there

[deinol]

3 war walkers with scatter lasers and you only avg 1 hit? i avg 5-9 hits and 3-4 glances.. and one time i killed the storm ravens he was in hover mode .. so he didnt get a jink there

Doesn't it take 6s to hit flyers? 2 guns * 4 shots * 3 walkers = 24 shots. 6s means an average of 4 hits. Which should be one glance usually.

[Defenestratus]

3 war walkers with scatter lasers and you only avg 1 hit? i avg 5-9 hits and 3-4 glances.. and one time i killed the storm ravens he was in hover mode .. so he didnt get a jink there

If he was in hover mode then you really don't need a dedicated AA unit because then you're just shooting a fast skimmer.

[DarkLink]

Thing is out of 186 Guardsmen 75 of them have stuff that can hurt the Wraithknight and 30 of them have Melta Bombs which can kill it.

Plus it only has the four attacks and the stomp, sure against Guard it will hit on 3+ so it will hit and likely kill some guard. But the rest will attack back with their Krak grenades and it is possible they will wound it as well.

Five on the charge, which it will get. So one armor save from Hammer of Wrath, and another 2.8 from its attacks, is 3.5 dead on the charge. Your hits back won't do much (seriously, why do you think that 6's to wound with a maximum of one attack per model somehow makes guardsmen good in combat against the Wraithknight). I win combat, you take a morale check at about Ld, what, 5? 10 dead Guardsmen. Even if they don't break and run that turn, next turn I'll win combat again, with the added benefit of preventing you from shooting me.

Since you're not blobbing, and since the only thing that actually has decent odds of wounding the Wraithknight are your meltabombs, so I'll want to shoot those, the Wraithknight will walk through your army 10 Guardsmen at a time. It will keep doing that until you either do dedicate your entire ranged firepower to killing it, which is a big win for the Eldar player, or until you mass assault it, which still probably won't kill it because krak grenades are not very impressive, in which case the Eldar player also wins because it's the same scenario as the big blob squad, except you aren't Stubborn Ld 10 on everyone so I've got a much better chance of running you down.


Also, how many snipers do you have? 10? 20? Not sure if you're talking about command squads with sniper rifles or Ratlings or whatever. Assuming BS4, it takes a lot of sniper shots to kill a Wraithknight. 20 snipers can do it in a couple of turns, but 36" range isn't that great, so I'd probably just hold back a turn, let my Serpents mow down some snipers with Ignores Cover serpent shields, and then you've lost most of your threat against the Wraithknight.

In fact, the more I think about it, the more I'm thinking that having a Wraithknight to Sweeping Advance its way through your army is more and more important, for the precise reason that you pointed out that Guardsmen can swarm most other Eldar. So I hit the key units you have that can threaten the Wraithknight, the Wraithknight shrugs off everything else and kills a bunch of Guardsmen in assault. It'll either kill enough dudes or tie up enough dudes that the rest of my army can actually win. That right there isn't just useful, that's MVP status for the Wraithknight.

Will the Wraithknight die in the process of the game? Maybe. I wouldn't be too surprised, I would be using him pretty aggressively. But he would absolutely be worth taking over, say, a pair of Fire Prisms.


3 war walkers with scatter lasers and you only avg 1 hit? i avg 5-9 hits and 3-4 glances.. and one time i killed the storm ravens he was in hover mode .. so he didnt get a jink there

That would explain it. In hover mode they die much easier. But he would get jink if he moved, skimmers always get a jink save if they move. Flyers are the ones that have to dodge to get jink. Which seems kinda backwards to me. I think that Flyers shouldn't force you to Snap Shot to hit them, they should just get, say, a 3+ Jink save automatically, and a 2+ if they go fast/dodge. It would make more sense, and would be more balanced.

[Demonus]

If he was in hover mode then you really don't need a dedicated AA unit because then you're just shooting a fast skimmer.

and if he moved, he got a jink save.

[cebalrai]

and if he moved, he got a jink save.


I've been equipping a power lance on my Swooping Hawk Exarch lately and have been getting a ton of use out of it. It's not that I'm looking to assault as a primary option with Hawks but the fact that they can so precisely deep strike means they're often close to high-value shooty units that are vulnerable to even mildly effective assaults. And three I6 attacks at S4 AP3 plus hammer gives the option of challenging sergeant types. It's just one more tool in the toolbox for these guys and it can save you from having to skyleap when you'd otherwise not want to.

[Force21]

I have only played two games with the new Codex so far...

I played about 12 games or so before the new Codex...


but after the 2nd game I like it, it makes it a bit more fun to play in my opinion... I like the Bladestorm the only thing I would change to it is give all the Phoenix Lord at least a 5++, E.W. to the Avatar, make it so Banshsee's don't drop to I 1...


anyway I am going to get a few more games in this weekend so I can a beter feel on it...


Oh! I don't thinks its a big deal....but GW put a Faq up....not sure if anone else posted it before me....

its funny tho... just one Errata.

[DarkLink]

That errata has been up since literally before the codex was released.

[Kyban]

That errata has been up since literally before the codex was released.

It's exactly what's in the codex too, was there a screw up they fixed in a later run?

[chicop76]

Does that guy even play guard. Plasma and Melta gunners galore and Vendettas come on.

Sure fire way to kill a wraithknight is with psychic battle squad and calldius assassian. If he happens to deny the witch you might have issues. However I call that squad it will be gone.

If a T8 model on the field it means strength 3-4 just bounces off the model. All the other anti weapons vs MC now wound on 3-5 instead of 2-3. He may no be a nightbringer, but it's still a pain in the butt.

With guard I could kill a nightbringer with a quarter of my army. Even so that forced me to spend all my high strength weapons into one model while the rest of the army slap me silly.

With Nightbringer I just flat out ignored it which was a viable tactic for that model.

However vs a Wraithknight you can't do that. You have to respond to something like that. If you can tie it in combat all game long than it's your best chance of victory. A Commissar lord is good to keep guardsmen from running away. If you throw about 20 guardsmen at the knight and they have stubborn at leadership 10 they probably can tie the knight for the entire game.

However seeing that a knight is not as much as a pain as a nightbringer it will take less fire power to kill a knight. Although spells that give out +4 invultnerable saves and invisibility can make the knight rather hard to deal with.

[DarkLink]

I kinda stopped taking him seriously when he talked about taking grenade launchers in a non-joking manner.


It's exactly what's in the codex too, was there a screw up they fixed in a later run?

I think one of the profiles is correct, but another elsewhere is wrong.