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Chapter Master Jake
05-31-2013, 06:15 PM
I'm sure it's the most prevalent, recognizable flaw in wargames today, particularly with Games Workshop, and particularly with Warhammer 40,000. If anyone wants a science fiction wargame to play with friends, one has many choices but all are relatively the same, flawed. This flaw is the price.

I realize that as a business, and especially for all the business owners out there, you're in it to make money even if you're passionate about what you're doing. Money's the inevitable evil of the world, I get that. My problem is the level of sheer and entirely conspicuous greed behind the prices of little molded plastic figures.

We live in an age where plastic is about as abundant as salt. As for modeling plastic, I can safely say that it isn't entirely expensive to make depending on the quality of the plastic formula. The technology behind the sculpting and molding process is equally efficient to the abundance of the plastic. It's all designed by hand or by computer program which is then saved and uploaded to the prototype machine which creates the basic copy for approval. Once approved it goes into mass production.

It's a complicated process! I get it! ...BUT after your capital is returned through the new item prices and demand for the models reaches a stable level, there should be a sort of balance between cost and profit. It's clearly a concept that is well beyond the mindset of the Citadel marketing office.

Since they have no inclination to provide a report as to the reasoning behind the obscenely inflated prices for GW WH40K products nor the seemingly gouged pricing increase of popular models, it's clear to me Games Workshop does NOT care about or even respect its customer base. I think the preeminent example of this obscene, disrespectful, greedy mentality is the price of Eldar Dire Avengers.

Those who have played Eldar sure remember the Dire Avengers being boxed in 10 construct-able models at around $37.50 before the current update. Post-update we are now looking at only 5 construct-able models for a staggering $35.00. That's $7.00 per 1.2-inch tall miniature compared to roughly $3.80 per model before. That's just over double the price per model...

As if $37.50 wasn't obscene enough for a box of plastic models, they double the price of the models, reducing the quantity of models available per box... What the eff?

I just can't understand why this is okay. Don't even get me started on the bullying business tactics they've been using the past decade.

The worst part is there's really no affordable sci-fi wargames out there to try and replace WH40K that I know of. DUST Warfare, MERCS, Dropzone Commander, Epic 40K (discontinued), Battletech (random, discontinued), and several others I can't remember off-hand. All are either equally obscenely priced or discontinued.

What's this world coming to when something meant to be an accessible, fun and enjoyable hobby, turns into a rich jerks-only type of thing? It really disgusts me. Something I want to engage in and enjoy is kept out of reach because being a thinking, responsible member of society, I don't want to spend obscene amounts of money on vanity items.

Bitrider
05-31-2013, 06:48 PM
What's this world coming to when something meant to be an accessible, fun and enjoyable hobby, turns into a rich jerks-only type of thing? It really disgusts me. Something I want to engage in and enjoy is kept out of reach because being a thinking, responsible member of society, I don't want to spend obscene amounts of money on vanity items.

You make an assumption here that GW wants the game to be "accessible" and not for "..rich..types". Here is a Hobby Center building requirement quote from the GW website:


Hobby Centers - Site Criteria
SITE CRITERIA

Demographic Criteria: At least 500,000 total population within 10 miles with 33,000+ 14- to 24-year-old males. Median household income is at least $50,000.

(link http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=&categoryId=&section=&pIndex=7&aId=3500005&start=8&multiPageMode=true)

Not sure they really want moderate income players. Just my 2 cents.

lobster-overlord
05-31-2013, 07:13 PM
Capitalism != Greed. You mistake greed for trying to turn a genuine profit on a luxury item.

I'm tired of people complaining about prices and inaccessibility of product. GO find a new hobby if it bothers you so much.

John M>

MrBo
05-31-2013, 07:35 PM
Hate to say it, but i am sure you would feel differently if it was your IP.

Cpt Codpiece
05-31-2013, 07:54 PM
i don't normally complain about GW pricing, its a double edged sword... love the minis and games but pay the price... i dont smoke or drink so i have a little to spare.

but the recent move with the dire avengers is a very big WTF???????
halving the content for a marginal price cut...... WOW! im just gutted i only snagged one box last week, turns out i have a box less than i thought i did from the last eldar launch LOL

but apart from the DA im happy to pay what the minis are priced at (at the moment) even forgeworld (though the marines are a little much £70 per 10 man squad).

MrBo
05-31-2013, 08:18 PM
i don't normally complain about GW pricing, its a double edged sword... love the minis and games but pay the price... i dont smoke or drink so i have a little to spare.

but the recent move with the dire avengers is a very big WTF???????
halving the content for a marginal price cut...... WOW! im just gutted i only snagged one box last week, turns out i have a box less than i thought i did from the last eldar launch LOL

but apart from the DA im happy to pay what the minis are priced at (at the moment) even forgeworld (though the marines are a little much £70 per 10 man squad).

Maybe im being mean because i already have all the DA's i need.just sayin'

TheBitzBarn
05-31-2013, 09:35 PM
"I realize that as a business, and especially for all the business owners out there, you're in it to make money even if you're passionate about what you're doing. Money's the inevitable evil of the world, I get that. My problem is the level of sheer and entirely conspicuous greed behind the prices of little molded plastic figures."

As a Business Greed is Good. Greed and Demand for money over all things in Life is BAD. Greed to have a better life, better house, spend money on those you love are all good but when you make chasing Capital thing the only purpose of life you are Lost. I have no problem with money . Money is not evil men's Hearts turn it evil. No more than TV or Guns are evil.

Charistoph
05-31-2013, 10:22 PM
Money is not evil men's Hearts turn it evil. No more than TV or Guns are evil.

Indeed, the love of money is the root of all evil.

And isn't it greedy to demand a company sell for less, as well?

StarWarsDoug
05-31-2013, 11:30 PM
I know its hard to comprehend moves like the dire avengers, but let me break it down a little.

Price for tooling a new 3D multicomponent injection mold ranges from 15k-30k (currency type irrelevant here, for my discussion)
Design cost for a model (man-hours) is highly variable based on the size and level of detail, and experience of the humans doing the design. But lets take the wraithknight. I've heard it took aroubd 4-5 months to design fron concept to ready for mold. And on average 2 people were working on it. Average designer sakary is around 70k annually, so running that math a conservative estimate is around 50k in human design time.

So before we start manufacturing that model has cost 70+k!

Each model will incur 5-10k of marketing effort. That includes initial model building and painting and photography, print and digital, descriptive write ups, etc.

We are up to 80-100k

Now we start selling that model. The manufacturing cost is roughly 40% of the suggested retail. That includes labor and supplies to manufacture. If we sell at 115 we are only making 69 gross.

Cost to ship to destination for sale averages out to around 5% of msrp across all markets so lets say 5. That brings our profit to 64.

Back office overhead is around 20% that includes all the facilities, maintennance, salaries and benefits of everyone not directly tied to sales. So 23 to keep the lights on. Down to 41.

Or it costs 74 per model until design costs are recovered.

Wholesale sales to partners(distributors) is averaged at 40% discount to msrp. So we sell it externally at $69 intrnal sales/ direct sales is 115. 60% of sales are thru partner channels. So we lost 5 for every external sale until we make back the design cost... Thats not good!!! So our direct sales to break even have to be...2400 units roughly...

Thats 2400 sold from website or gw stores at full price. Worldwide its like 300-400 stores i dont recall an exact count, going with the bigger number thats 6 models sold per GW store. And thats highly doable with a popular model. But not everything is. And thats discounting that we take a loss on the other sales until we cover our r&d, so we have made 0...ZERO! As a company at that point.

So if 60% of sales are at 3rd parties. We have to sell another 500 units direct to cover that loss.

This means that wraithknight has to sell almost 7000 units to break even, at which point we make an average 13.6 per unit sold. ( 60/ 40 split, 5 loss on 3 to 41 gain on 2, so 82-15= 68/5= 13.6)

Or about 10% on every pound of revenue. Which is darn near close to GWs EBITDA...

Thats the reality.

Rennegade
06-01-2013, 12:39 AM
What I think this leads into, is why the codex's are being pushed out so fast. Slam everything out, stabilize the product, remove 3/4 of design staff. Continue for a long time on the current edition while making small upgrades to each force in the magazine as "chapter approved" to revitalize the earlier armies and coast off into whatever technology this will lead into. Perhaps 3D printing patterns that are sold for a limited number of uses by online stores or like build a bear shops, but for Warhammer armies.

Baron.roboto
06-01-2013, 01:21 AM
Had a bit of a rant, read it against OP, thought it wasn't very constructive so removed it.


Nothing to see here!

eldargal
06-01-2013, 01:26 AM
Another point to remember is that GW manufacture the models themselves in Britain and the US. Nearly all their competition manufacture them in China.

The Dire Avenger thing is hard to swallow though. I have enough that it won't affect me at all and hopefully there should be ten man boxes floating around on the internet for a while yet but it's still hard to take even if there are legitimate reasons for it (like low profitability on the old kit).

Greed is bad when it comes at the expense of people or the environment. GW don't employ slave labour, they don't poison the environment they don't engage in nasty financial tricks to avoid paying tax. As corporations go they are far, far from being bad. Charging as much as they can for a product is not immoral especially when it is a luxury product.

Build
06-01-2013, 02:12 AM
Capitalism != Greed. You mistake greed for trying to turn a genuine profit on a luxury item.

I'm tired of people complaining about prices and inaccessibility of product. GO find a new hobby if it bothers you so much.

John M>

This, forever this!

I'm sorry, but I fit in the no sympathy for you camp as what you're saying is certainly nothing that hasn't been ranted and moaned about before. However the best part of the situation is this, you can either play a different game system (there's plenty out there that require far fewer models to have a good game and at cheaper prices), you can ebay older versions of the dire avengers and will easily find them for a decent price. You can make your own if you REALLY feel the inclination, or you can just pay the price for the current ones, it really doesn't make any difference.

It's because of moans like yours, that I'm glad I don't work with GW, regardless of whether it's a store or head office.

Warptiger
06-01-2013, 02:16 AM
Model wargaming has always been an expensive niche hobby. It was never cheap. In many cases, the plastic kits are cheaper then the metal blister packs used to be. I've been playing since first edition, and I can still remember what a new all metal army used to cost. Make your hair stand on end. And it was always fun opening up boxes to find all the metal figures inside were made from worn out flexible molds, with flash, bubbles, pocks, and malformed parts. Yeah.

GW makes it's profits from selling the miniatures, not the rules. It's not in their interests to make them cheaper. And though you think plastic is cheap, having new molds made for plastic injection is not. It's hilariously expensive. It costs a ton of money to have them tooled.

And the pricing policies at least make some sense now. In the past, GW would sometimes set a price on a certain model 2 to 3 times higher then anything of even remotely the same utility or points value. Instead of a force organization chart, they simply wanted "rare" models to cost so much, you couldn't buy too many of them. It was kind of nutty.

UrielVentris
06-01-2013, 02:20 AM
Telling people to find a new hobby because a 50% price increase in a unit is pretty dickish fellas.

That reads as 'you're poor and can't afford it? Leave my hobby'

Build
06-01-2013, 02:26 AM
Telling people to find a new hobby because a 50% price increase in a unit is pretty dickish fellas.

That reads as 'you're poor and can't afford it? Leave my hobby'

No, it's called common sense.

I'd like a private jet so I can fly without having to wait in departures when I go on holiday, I can't afford one but I'm not going to moan about it.

lobster-overlord
06-01-2013, 04:21 AM
Telling people to find a new hobby because a 50% price increase in a unit is pretty dickish fellas.

That reads as 'you're poor and can't afford it? Leave my hobby'

No, it means STFU, as I'm sick of hearing it. I'm poor (3 kids, and wife at home, I make less than the poverty level in the US for a family of 5 after 10 years of dot com bubble crash and not able to get a job making more than McDonald's mgmnt salary). I love my hobby, and when I scrimp and save and am able to buy a model I cherish it because I know it's an extravagance. Treat it for what it is...

Wildeybeast
06-01-2013, 05:17 AM
I don't want to spend obscene amounts of money on vanity items.

So don't then. Do something else with your money. Problem solved.

Chapter Master Jake
06-01-2013, 06:53 AM
I didn't read section 7 of the commenting rules :(

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/faq.php?faq=termsmaster#faq_termsuse

legalsmash
06-01-2013, 07:19 AM
You make an assumption here that GW wants the game to be "accessible" and not for "..rich..types". Here is a Hobby Center building requirement quote from the GW website:


Hobby Centers - Site Criteria
SITE CRITERIA


Demographic Criteria: At least 500,000 total population within 10 miles with 33,000+ 14- to 24-year-old males. Median household income is at least $50,000.

(link http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=&categoryId=§ion=&pIndex=7&aId=3500005&start=8&multiPageMode=true)

Not sure they really want moderate income players. Just my 2 cents.

This isn't meant to apply to our kind brothers on the isle of britain regarding income:

Really, this isnt all that high an income category in the States. The fact the US median income is in the low 40's doesnt mean that this is a high amount... it's pretty much low/middle class.
Consider this: 50K a year PRETAX - Fed. Income tax, - possible state/local taxes, any student debt/financial debt management - rent/mortgage '- car payment/insurance/gas, - food- incidentals, THEN you have disposable income.
Say you have 100-200 credibly that you can blow a month on "whatever" and you dont game, go out to eat in extraneous places, and ONLY wanted to play GW, you could buy a wraithknight a month... at MSRP technically.

Now, if you are not buying online for at least a 20% discount, you can't blame anyone but yourself. Be thrifty. No one requires you to pay the GW set MSRP prices and its ultimately your choice whether you support a FLGS with your purchasing. There's also Ebay, bartertown, craigslist, and forum trade shops where you can find things. There's a whole list of ways to get models/books, etc.

Lamborghini doesn't want their product to be available for "everyone", and their car is largely fiberglass and plastic... you know, that is available like "salt."

That income/area/population listing is just basically saying they don't want to put stores in a ghetto. Basically don't want it to be "gunshop, liquorshop, footlocker, games workshop".

Their business practices are boderline retarded, but they aren't joseph Kony because they charge more for mowaked guardians.

I don't support their pricing, I don't agree with their priorities with regard to development goals nor their desire to eat the LOTR pie, but I can't really be mad that they are trying to remain "exclusive and elusive" over say, heroclix, etc. Compared to magic, (20 a card for some of them anyone) vidya (59 per game), warmachine, dust, etc. while the prices are not exact, the comparability of pricing/activity/enjoyment is not vastly indifferent.

Want to cry about a price raise? See the cost of Cadian guardsmen20 man box in 2003 at inception 25-30 for 20. its now 29 for 10 and its likely to increase. Pretty much every fantasy release since 7th ed. came out. Go see how much a raider has gone up since the most recent kids came out. compare the ancient godhammer pattern with the current price. Check out the price changes on codex when I started they were 10-15 at most expensive 20, now they are 50 per.

No one is stopping you from buying mantic stuff and playing, or almost any other group's models if you didnt want to pay gw. KOW and warpath rules suck less as a matter of fact.

Pretty much, this is first world problems at its best. Its toy soldiers, not medical care bro. Think of the hungry people in Africa bro.

Fo' da love of monies!

legalsmash
06-01-2013, 07:20 AM
No, it means STFU, as I'm sick of hearing it. I'm poor (3 kids, and wife at home, I make less than the poverty level in the US for a family of 5 after 10 years of dot com bubble crash and not able to get a job making more than McDonald's mgmnt salary). I love my hobby, and when I scrimp and save and am able to buy a model I cherish it because I know it's an extravagance. Treat it for what it is...

Go get marketable position homeboy. Or sell crack.
If you are in US adjusted poverty level is about 30-40 for a family of five (I'm counting you, wife, and three spawn). You should probably find better (read less expensive) hobby.

Wildeybeast
06-01-2013, 06:22 PM
I didn't read section 7 of the commenting rules :(
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/faq.php?faq=termsmaster#faq_termsuse

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware you made an argument. I understood your point to be 'GW is really expensive (especially new Eldar releases) and I don't like it'. I'm not sure what else there is to discuss. Everyone agrees it is expensive and no one is especially happy about this, but there is jack all any of us can do about it beyond not buying the stuff. It basically comes down to whether you (and and everyone else), as an individual are willing/able to pay. Nothing anyone else says will have any bearing on this, it is a personal decision. If you are looking for like minded individuals to join your complaint, provide a cathartic release and agree that GW are the embodiment of corporate evil, I politely suggest that you may be more at home on another forum. As you've seen, there are plenty of people on BoLS who give the 'it's too expensive' complaint fairly short shrift. Otherwise, I'm really not sure what you were hoping to accomplish with this thread.

lobster-overlord
06-01-2013, 07:11 PM
I know I am responsible for my own choices when it comes to what I spend my money on. My family wants for nothing (well the wife does now and again) and we are NOT on food stamps or any other benefits, so if I choose to save up my money and buy something from GW then it is my own choice. While I don't like the prices, i don't complain about it. I know what I'm getting into with it. It's up to each of us to make a personal decision on how we spend our money. If you think that because it's something you want that the price should be based on some arbitrary scale that fits your wallet, then that's not GW's fault. You make a choice to buy from them, and you make a choice to complain about it. GW doesn't make you make these choices. They just provide you with a daRn good product (codex editing withstanding).

Mr Mystery
06-02-2013, 03:51 AM
Really not at all sure you can ascribe greed to the pricing of any given non-essential product.

I mean, petrol, bread, rice, milk etc? Sure. If someone has the only local source, and decides to double their prices just because, with you all the way. Run that greedy sod out of town.

But a hobby? Absolutely any hobby? Nah. I don't think so. Doesn't make the prices suddenly cheap. But there is no rational way to ascribe greed.

Wildeybeast
06-02-2013, 06:01 AM
Couldn't agree more Mystery. It's a hobby. That means firstly, it's entirely optional and not in any way essential. Secondly, it is an expensive hobby. Some hobbies are cheap but most tend to be expensive, especially when you really get into them. If you want to do mountain biking or golf properly, it costs you thousands of pounds for a good bike or set of clubs, not to mention membership fees for a golf club.

Denzark
06-02-2013, 06:18 AM
I know I am responsible for my own choices when it comes to what I spend my money on. My family wants for nothing (well the wife does now and again) and we are NOT on food stamps or any other benefits, so if I choose to save up my money and buy something from GW then it is my own choice. While I don't like the prices, i don't complain about it. I know what I'm getting into with it. It's up to each of us to make a personal decision on how we spend our money. If you think that because it's something you want that the price should be based on some arbitrary scale that fits your wallet, then that's not GW's fault. You make a choice to buy from them, and you make a choice to complain about it. GW doesn't make you make these choices. They just provide you with a daRn good product (codex editing withstanding).


Really not at all sure you can ascribe greed to the pricing of any given non-essential product.

I mean, petrol, bread, rice, milk etc? Sure. If someone has the only local source, and decides to double their prices just because, with you all the way. Run that greedy sod out of town.

But a hobby? Absolutely any hobby? Nah. I don't think so. Doesn't make the prices suddenly cheap. But there is no rational way to ascribe greed.


Couldn't agree more Mystery. It's a hobby. That means firstly, it's entirely optional and not in any way essential. Secondly, it is an expensive hobby. Some hobbies are cheap but most tend to be expensive, especially when you really get into them. If you want to do mountain biking or golf properly, it costs you thousands of pounds for a good bike or set of clubs, not to mention membership fees for a golf club.


Agreed with all of you gentlemen especially the mature approach of LO.

Mr Mystery
06-03-2013, 02:07 PM
Indeed. Precious few hobbies stay cheap for long. Even stamp collecting soon escalates once you get the bug.

Take LARP. My kit? Looking around £500 all in, and I'm looking at a second set before long. Tent I want? Near enough £500 in itself. Plus a stove, flue and water boiler? That's another £500 right there. Weapons need periodic replacement, because you can only smack so many people upside the noggin before your carbon fibre core can take no more. Archer or Crossbowman? Don't get attached to your projectiles. Lost easily, and again, the shaft can deteriorate quickly. That's £10 a pop to replace with suitable quality. Events! £70 for the weekend. Not including booze (lots of) or scran (hunger comes fierce after a 6 hour pagga).

But guess what! No need for me to spend any of that! I does it because it makes me happy, and its awesome exercise (hundred metre ascent up one bloody hill 6 times in one battle!).

Can't afford your hobby? Accept it, or get yourself a better job. Churlish? Perhaps. But doable. I did it. And I've never looked back.

Phototoxin
06-03-2013, 02:50 PM
Upping prices can only work for so long. Eventually something will give. At the moment, unemployed and ill as I am, if I save for a year I can get a new army. Not that I get a new army every year but hey.
So long as GW is surviving it will be fine.

Why does this conversation take place every time a new army comes out? I mean people are complaining about the silly prices of cinema tickets or xbox games or the like?

Wolfshade
06-03-2013, 04:35 PM
Stickmonkey makes a very good point and that is only for the costing of a new successful model. For each model that is made, how many other concepts are thought and made, how many even get to the point of being produced before they are pulled so the cost must also cover those ones.
As for the price, well we all know with so many luxury items that the cost does not reflect the amount it makes to directly produce. As someone else earlier commented that perhaps they make it expensive to make it exclusive. There was a court case a few years ago against Tesco for wanting to sell perfume and jeans (from a specific Jewish-sounding manufacturer) at a significant price beneath the RRP, they were banned from doing so as the cost was considered to be a fundamental aspect of the product, i.e. the exclusivity of owning it. A few months ago one needs to observe the statement made by Ferrari who were increasing their prices and down-turning production, not to cover prices or increased costs but to increase its allure and exclusivity.

There are the continual arguments against the price and saying that their pricing policy is bound to fail. But one needs to consider that GW does not work at the sell lots cheap policy, similarly put the wargaming community is small. Let us be perfectly honest GW are not some johnny come lately, they know their customers very well, they understand their market very well, one just needs to consider their longevity to point to that. Indeed the last independent market evaluation had 95p in every £1 spent on wargaming through GW.

Though none of this really stops us from bemoaning the price hikes since after all I don't think anyone likes paying more.

The solution is obvious, play more games to get the cost / gaming hour down :)