Drop Pods & Disembarking?

[Lost Vyper]

This has come up in our FLGC. We have SW & GK/BA -players, who use drop pods. Their opinion is, that they can disembark 6" measuring from the opened hatches, which gives them a huge advantage. Our (enemies :) ) opinion is, that you measure from the hull (like vehicles). Plus, when the pod explodes, then they insist, that it´s measured from the hull.

a) Is there a FAQ on this matter?
b) If not, how do people normally play pods in these scenarios?

any opinions much appreciated (normally, the puppies land from the sky with three pods...annoying...) :rolleyes:

[Nabterayl]

No FAQs that I'm aware of. However, I note that if the doors are treated as "hull," they are impassable terrain to all models - even jump-, jet-, skimmer-, and flying ones. For this reason my group has decided that opened hatch door are essentially not part of the model at all - you can walk on them just like any other piece of terrain.

Other positive consequences of this treatment, in my opinion, are the fact that it treats all drop pods the same regardless of whether a player has glued the doors shut and the fact that it more accurately reflects the distance a model could move assuming he starts from a crash harness.

[RGilbert26]

I do not remember where I read it in the rulebook but it does state that you now measure from the hull, as the doors are essentially jettisoned as it lands and so are now ignored, same for the explosion measure from the hull. Also if you were to follow what they say (deploy 6" from the doors) then the explosion would be from the doors and not the hull (they can't have it both ways).

[Wolfshade]

If the doors are part of the hull and the pod lands and opens the doors onto scenery what happens?
- Does the grounded pod have to move the minimum distance to avoid hitting the terrain? (Which being immobile seems improbable)
- Does the pod then have to take a deepstrike mishap? (Even less likely than the first)
- Does the pod take a difficult/dangerous terrain test?

[Denzark]

I glue mine shut. I don't want to paint the inside, I don't want the doors flippy-flapping around damaging terrain and models. Measuring from the doors is ridiculously cheating.

[Magpie]

Problem is that Drop Pods are Open Topped when they open the doors.
The rules for Open Topped say "all of the vehicle" is considered an access point.

However the Drop Pod only gains it's open topped status once the "hatches are blown" which could mean blow off or blown open.
It isn't clear, It has never been clear.

In my area we measure from the actual hull and ignore the doors/ramps, mainly for the reasons Wolfshade has said.

[Wolfshade]

The difficulty with the doors, you have some people who have done ridiculious cheesy stuff in the past, like open and close the doors to suit, so that they can fire through the pod, but closed so the enemy can't. Selectively open doors so that the unit can dissembark but be out of LoS.

While it is true that the doors are part of the hull, I would prefer it to played that they were not as you suggest Magpie, so that people can just walk across them unhindered, maybe difficult terrain?, but otherwise you have strange things happening like assaulting the tip of a door and then the whole pod is destroyed or shooting it. It seems a bit unfeasable.

[Denzark]

Problem is that Drop Pods are Open Topped when they open the doors.
The rules for Open Topped say "all of the vehicle" is considered an access point.

However the Drop Pod only gains it's open topped status once the "hatches are blown" which could mean blow off or blown open.
It isn't clear, It has never been clear.

In my area we measure from the actual hull and ignore the doors/ramps, mainly for the reasons Wolfshade has said.

The open topped is not predicated on 'hatches are blown'. The rule states 'once deployed the drop pod is no longer a sealed environment and is therefore counted as being open-topped.' So, if it deploys, it is then open topped. Simples. The hatches are an entire irrelevancy. None of my vehicle hatches open, does this mean no one can get out? None of my Marines' bolt guns work either...

[Magpie]

The open topped is not predicated on 'hatches are blown'.

Yeh it is, read all of the rule. "Once the drop pod has landed the hatches are blown." ergo once it has landed and the hatches are blown it has deployed and is no longer a sealed environment and so is counted as being open topped.

[mathhammer]

1) you measure from the hull.
2) You are not allowed to change the shape of the hull during play.
3) if the doors are part of the hull, then it lands in a full flower configuration and the doors can cause mishaps etc.
4) Also your not allowed to stand on a door, or fire a template weapon across a door.

And this is how i handled it for people trying to disembark from a door.

[Denzark]

Yeh it is, read all of the rule. "Once the drop pod has landed the hatches are blown." ergo once it has landed and the hatches are blown it has deployed and is no longer a sealed environment and so is counted as being open topped.

What codex are you reading from? I took a direct rule from the Space Marine Codex. The paragraph you quoted from gives only 2 rules - neither of them being the open top rule. What that paragraph tells you is: 1. Immediately disembark. and 2. No models can embark for the rest of the game.

The paragraph which makes it open topped is the one I quoted from. Deploying - an in game function makes it open topped, another in game function. The blowing of hatches does not cause any in game functions/rules to be initiated. It is merely a coincidence. You sirrah are confusing the fluff with the rules as written.

[Magpie]

What codex are you reading from? I took a direct rule from the Space Marine Codex. The paragraph you quoted from gives only 2 rules - neither of them being the open top rule. What that paragraph tells you is: 1. Immediately disembark. and 2. No models can embark for the rest of the game.

The paragraph which makes it open topped is the one I quoted from. Deploying - an in game function makes it open topped, another in game function. The blowing of hatches does not cause any in game functions/rules to be initiated. It is merely a coincidence. You sirrah are confusing the fluff with the rules as written.

Read your book again. The RULE for disembarking says quite clearly that the hatches are blown, just after landing( which is deploying) and just before disembarking.

The later rule regarding open topped is premised that it is no longer a seal environment, why is it no longer a sealed environment? because the hatches are blown.

[Wolfshade]

Becareful with backwards reasoning, it does not always work.
"I have an headache so I take aspirin." Logically backwards the headache is caused by an aspiring defficiency.

The drop pod is always open topped because the rules say so. When it is hurtling through the air it is open topped, when it lands it is open topped. It being counted as open topped as nothing to do with how the doors/hatches may or may not operate.

[Magpie]

Becareful with backwards reasoning, it does not always work.
"I have an headache so I take aspirin." Logically backwards the headache is caused by an aspiring defficiency.

The drop pod is always open topped because the rules say so. When it is hurtling through the air it is open topped, when it lands it is open topped. It being counted as open topped as nothing to do with how the doors/hatches may or may not operate.

I wonder at that tho' as the rule says "when it has deployed" it is counted as open topped. Granted it never comes up as there is no situation where the pod can be fired at or what ever before it has deployed.

[Denzark]

I wonder at that tho' as the rule says "when it has deployed" it is counted as open topped. Granted it never comes up as there is no situation where the pod can be fired at or what ever before it has deployed.

Yes - my point exactly. 'When it has deployed' is the key phrase that makes it open topped. The hatches blowing are nothing to do with it in terms of real life game effects. If you took out the paragraph on 'when it has deployed' and just left the 'hatches blown' paragraph before it, the open topped rule would not appear.

[Magpie]

Yes - my point exactly. 'When it has deployed' is the key phrase that makes it open topped. The hatches blowing are nothing to do with it in terms of real life game effects. If you took out the paragraph on 'when it has deployed' and just left the 'hatches blown' paragraph before it, the open topped rule would not appear.

"no longer is a sealed environment and is THEREFORE counted as open topped" is the key phrase, that's what therefore means.
If you took out "when it is deployed" and left in the rest it would still be open topped.

[Denzark]

"no longer is a sealed environment and is THEREFORE counted as open topped" is the key phrase, that's what therefore means.
If you took out "when it is deployed" and left in the rest it would still be open topped.

Yes magpie, that is the key phrase, well done. And that phrase is completely separate from the previous paragraph which talks about the hatches being blown. So as I said, the fact the hatches are blown is irrelevant in game terms. You keep making my point for me, you are a gift that keeps giving.

[Wolfshade]

You keep making my point for me, you are a gift that keeps giving.
The shadow chancellor?

[Magpie]

Yes magpie, that is the key phrase, well done. And that phrase is completely separate from the previous paragraph which talks about the hatches being blown. So as I said, the fact the hatches are blown is irrelevant in game terms. You keep making my point for me, you are a gift that keeps giving.

How do you not see that "no longer a sealed environment" is contingent upon "hatches being blown" ?
Why else would it be no longer a sealed environment?

The hatches being blown is quite important because it is a definitive instruction that to get out the hatches have to be open. So as to your earlier comment of the hatches being glued shut, Yes it does mean your unit cannot disembark.

[Denzark]

How do you not see that "no longer a sealed environment" is contingent upon "hatches being blown" ?
Why else would it be no longer a sealed environment?

The hatches being blown is purely fluff and is irrelevant because it does not directly lead to a game rule. The paragraph you are harping on about has game rules, in order: disembark, no models can embark. Yes this takes place after the hatch has blown, but not because of it.

The paragraph I am harping on about has the following game rules in order: Deploy, open topped. This second para shows the only trigger for open topped to apply to a drop pod, which is it must deploy.

The hatches being blown is quite important because it is a definitive instruction that to get out the hatches have to be open.

Please reference in any rules that hatches have to be open to disembark?

So as to your earlier comment of the hatches being glued shut, Yes it does mean your unit cannot disembark.

That is a ridiculous comment. I suppose you don't move any miniatures whose legs are glued to the base?

Magpie you mentioned above 'if you took out when it is deployed.' I'll play that game. Lets have both paragraphs:

Once the drop pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark as normal. Once passengers have disembarked, no models can embark on the drop pod for the remainder of the game.

Fire and Access points: once deployed the drop pod is no longer counted as a sealed environment and is therefore counted as being open-topped.


If you remove the latter, in which there is no mention of hatches at all, the pod would no longer be open topped for game purposes as that phrase would go completely from the drop pod rules. Conversely, if you remove the former, there would be no mention of 'blown hatches' in the drop pod entry. However, the open topped rule would still be in there - yes, separate from any mention of hatches.

Ergo, I maintain that blown hatches is completely irrelevant to the open topped rule - it is fluff only.

[Magpie]

Ergo, I maintain that blown hatches is completely irrelevant to the open topped rule - it is fluff only.

Despite it being in the rules?

[Denzark]

I've shown quite succinctly that the blown hatches is merely a description of what would be happening were this real. What actual game rule/effect, that triggers the subsequent game rule/effect of being open topped, is deploying. There is no rule for hatches opening, unless you can provide a reference?

Also I note you neglected to state that if you think glues hatches stop men moving out of them, what does glues legs on bases that cannot move do on the table top?

[Magpie]

You have shown no such thing. It is merely an opinion.

The actual rule for the drop pod says that the doors are blown and the unit disembarks. No way out of that, so having the doors remain in place to block line of sight is against the rules.

Page 3 covers the requirements for bases and Page 10 shows how models move with them on their feet.

[Denzark]

You have shown no such thing. It is merely an opinion.

The actual rule for the drop pod says that the doors are blown and the unit disembarks.

Doors are blown, not a game effect found in the rules DOES cause disembark, a game effect found in the rules. Doors are blown DOES NOT cause open topped, a game effect found in the rules. Deploying, a game effect found in the rules, DOES cause open topped.

No way out of that, so having the doors remain in place to block line of sight is against the rules.

I have never argued anything to the contrary. Whilst the physical doors may remain in place they would not block line of sight. There is precedent for models not having to actually move: p72 'On some models it will actually be impossible to literally move the gun and point it towards the target because of the way the model is assembled or because the gun has been glued in place. in this case, players should assume...'

I can't speak for you, but I am intellectually capable of drawing comparison and playing on the basis that none of my models physically have to carry out the actions they are simulating on the table top.

Page 3 covers the requirements for bases and Page 10 shows how models move with them on their feet.

They might well do. But it doesn't account for how you think having immovable plastic legs isn't an obstacle to movement, but an immovable plastic drop pod door is?

You are having a bit of a drama with this concept aren't you?

[Magpie]

Not half as much drama as you have in reading the rules.

[Denzark]

OK, please give me a BRB reference for 'hatches blowing open' or even something that states vehicle models must have physically opening hatches?

[Magpie]

Page 78 of the BRB talks about the Access Points of a vehicle being the hatches etc and how they are what is used to get into or out of a vehicle.

Page 69 of the SM Codex talks about those hatches (i.e access points) being blown open.

[Wolfshade]

As I said in post #13.

The words blown open do not really have any definition. That is the issue. In a compressor system, it is possible for a seal to be blow open, that the seal is exposed to the outside environment and yet the seal itself is still mostly (or largely) in place. In some cases a visual inspection of this would seem to show that the seal was infact in tact.

So a slightly open hatch meets the requirement of having been "blown" but would still in effect have the doors closed.

Regardless by what degree the hatches have opened the vehicle must count as open topped as there is no mechanism to have an unblown drop pod in the game. Or at least, not one that has an impact in a game.

[Magpie]

As I said in post #13.

The words blown open do not really have any definition. That is the issue. In a compressor system, it is possible for a seal to be blow open, that the seal is exposed to the outside environment and yet the seal itself is still mostly (or largely) in place. In some cases a visual inspection of this would seem to show that the seal was infact in tact.

So a slightly open hatch meets the requirement of having been "blown" but would still in effect have the doors closed.

Regardless by what degree the hatches have opened the vehicle must count as open topped as there is no mechanism to have an unblown drop pod in the game. Or at least, not one that has an impact in a game.

That is true but I think you can safely go with the idea of the hatches being blown open enough for the troops to be able to get out, which pretty much requires them to be all the way down.

[Wolfshade]

I think we are in the danger of trying to get fluff to match rules.

None of my transport doors open (aside from my land raiders) this does not affect their ability to disembark.
Bastions do not have opening doors but that doesn't stop models embarking into them, or people shooting into them.

Don't get me wrong, I think that when a drop pod lands the doors should fully open, but arguing that the opened topped rule forces the doors to be open fully is reading more into the rule than is written.

If the blowing of the doors is just to break the seal with the full opening done by servos then those same servos could close the doors.

[Denzark]

Page 78 of the BRB talks about the Access Points of a vehicle being the hatches etc and how they are what is used to get into or out of a vehicle.

Page 69 of the SM Codex talks about those hatches (i.e access points) being blown open.

No, wrong again. page 69 of the SM codex is not a BRB reference. The page you managed to quote in the BRB does indeed talk about what the access points are. It DOES NOT state they must physically be able to open, which is what I challenged you to provide a reference for.

[Caitsidhe]

You know it would be far easier to just convert the interior of the model to do what you want. If you don't want people to be able to see through your Drop Pod with the doors open, give it interior walls that make each section secure. A thin barrier doesn't even seating room. It can look quite good. Then you don't have to do this song and dance.

[Nabterayl]

Magpie, can you expand on the consequences of your reading? Let us suppose that my drop pod doors are glued shut. Do you contend that the embarked units cannot deploy? Do you contend that the drop pod will never be open-topped?

[Magpie]

Magpie, can you expand on the consequences of your reading? Let us suppose that my drop pod doors are glued shut. Do you contend that the embarked units cannot deploy? Do you contend that the drop pod will never be open-topped?

The doors are quite an important part of the Drop Pod and have significant impacts on how the DP works once on the table. The premise was given earlier that "I glue the doors shut and the problem goes away", what I am saying as it isn't that simple.

There is no permission given to leave the doors closed, there is a provision for weapons to be fixed in place but none is given for access doors and hatches. On nearly every other vehicle this isn't an issue as it is reasonable to assume that once out the passengers close the doors behind them. This isn't possible for a Drop Pod.

Once on the table the drop pod forms a significant piece of terrain and those doors are all important, enemies have to stay 1" away from them and there is the potential to trace line of sight through the pod for example. I suggest that modelling internal bulkheads to block LoS is modelling for advantage.

It's not so much that the model will never become open topped or that units cannot disembark but more that it is never allowed to be closed, just as it is never allowed to move or be reoccupied, the hatches MUST open.

[Denzark]

Reference? Reference anywhere that the doors on any transport must open to allow egress?

[Denzark]

The hatch on a bastion doesn't open, are you saying you can't go through it?

[Nabterayl]

I think what he's saying is what he said: that modeling a drop pod so it doesn't open is modeling for advantage. I would not call it an advantage, but I certainly would say it materially alters the way it plays on the table. One is left to estimate the weapon's line of sight, lines of sight through the pod must either be estimated or else do not exist, and the cover offered by the doors must be estimated or else do not exist.

[Demonus]

I have no issue with people gluing their DP shut, however I can easily draw line of sight through them (albeit giving a 5+ cover save). If they argue this, then I argue whatever is in their drop pods cannot get out.

[Lost Vyper]

Thanks everyone for participating, all of the views on the matter has lead to a conclusion in our FLGC that we had to vote. Result = 3 (Eldar,CSM,IG players) - 2 (SW & BA/GK players), that we measure from the HULL now on. But we agreed, that if this is ever FAQ´d otherwise, we follow that of course then.

[Magpie]

The hatch on a bastion doesn't open, are you saying you can't go through it?

Page 93 mate "Models can enter or exit a building through a doorway or other opening that the players have agreed to treat as an Access Point."

Read that as you will.