New Fire Dragons vs Traditional Wraithguard

[Baron.roboto]

Hi folks,
Like a good little Eldar veteran, I've been slobbering over the rumours like everyone else; and while I'm very excited for the codex, based on the rumoured stats I'm struggling to see the value in the traditional 5-Wraithguard unit in a Wave Serpent.

Currently, while Fire Dragons have more punch with their Fusion Guns, there is a significant difference between them and Wraithguard is that the 5 man Fire Dragons will easily be cut down, while the Wraithguard have the resilience to require the opponent to divert some serious firepower their way.

Now lets look at the Rumours. Fire Dragons have gotten a buff to a 3+ armour, and Wraithguard have had a change in the Wraithcannon to Str. 8 (plus no Seer babysitting needed). So this means that now the standard Wraithguard with the Wraithcannon have only strength and toughness advantage over the Fire Dragons, and you're paying 10pts more per model for this privilage!

So my question is, based on the rumours we've heard so far - is there any reason we know of for taking a 5 man Wraithcannon toting squad in a Wave Serpent over 5 Fire Dragons?

[DrLove42]

Well without the codex its really hard to say anything

Wraithguard will survive longer, full stop. Thry have better offensive punch in CC. Higher Ld and possibly fearless. Thry can be scoring.

[Vdor103]

Without knowing the full range of options or impact of FOC, I'd say one benefit of Wraithguard/blades will be that they can be scoring at 5-man units (vs the slow footslogging, sub 400 point sink, although I ran them anyway...). I can imagine fielding 4 different wraithguard/blade units and sending them to various objectives (hopefully transports get cheaper too), while my support units accompany them or backup from a far with ranged weapons.

Well see soon...

[Wildcard]

I thought the Wraithguards / blades would be bulky..

[chicop76]

The abilty to take 5 scoring wraithguard again as troops would be solid. It worked really well in 4th and 3rd until the Eldar nerf. However the serpent is not as good as it was in those editions, so it remains to be seen how reliable such a tactic now will be.

However I would take wraithguard over firedragons due to scoring. I have to look at point cost comparison though before I can make a decision.

[DarkLink]

I can see a meched up 5 wraithguard unit replacing one ounit of fire dragons for durable scoring.

[Mysterion]

Well without the codex its really hard to say anything.
Amen.

[Maxis Lithium]

this is why I hate the pre-order period. People guessing at what they want, rather then haveing any real idea about what they SHOULD be buying. I understand that GW is banking on the "NEW SHINNIES!"effect, but I am not interested in getting a new toy, only to find out that it's of no real use.

All I have on pre-order is the codex. In retrospect, perhaps I should have gotten the psychic cards too. but that's it. The benefit-cost/opportunity-cost analysis will take time, but if I have a general idea of things, it will help me decide weather I want to sink C$140 into the new monster, or if that's just NOT worth my effort.

[SeekingOne]

Hi folks,
Currently, while Fire Dragons have more punch with their Fusion Guns, there is a significant difference between them and Wraithguard is that the 5 man Fire Dragons will easily be cut down, while the Wraithguard have the resilience to require the opponent to divert some serious firepower their way.

Now lets look at the Rumours. Fire Dragons have gotten a buff to a 3+ armour, and Wraithguard have had a change in the Wraithcannon to Str. 8 (plus no Seer babysitting needed). So this means that now the standard Wraithguard with the Wraithcannon have only strength and toughness advantage over the Fire Dragons, and you're paying 10pts more per model for this privilage!

So my question is, based on the rumours we've heard so far - is there any reason we know of for taking a 5 man Wraithcannon toting squad in a Wave Serpent over 5 Fire Dragons?

For some reason you sound like the comparison between 5-dragon and 5-wraith squads has shifted in favour of the dragons. Imho, that's just not the case. In the old 'dex, the points difference between a dragon and a WG was 19, now it's 10. Also, even small squads of wraiths (supposedly) can be made scoring. Thus, even if dragons' armour save went up and wraithcannon power went somewhat down, the balance between dragons and wraiths should be considered more or less the same.

But in any case, instead of thinking of what should be that 5-elf suicide tank-busting squad, you should first of all think of whether you need such squad at all. And that can only be known once you see the whole army. So, unfortunately, in order to properly answer this question, we still have to wait for the actual codex.

[chicop76]

For some reason you sound like the comparison between 5-dragon and 5-wraith squads has shifted in favour of the dragons. Imho, that's just not the case. In the old 'dex, the points difference between a dragon and a WG was 19, now it's 10. Also, even small squads of wraiths (supposedly) can be made scoring. Thus, even if dragons' armour save went up and wraithcannon power went somewhat down, the balance between dragons and wraiths should be considered more or less the same.

But in any case, instead of thinking of what should be that 5-elf suicide tank-busting squad, you should first of all think of whether you need such squad at all. And that can only be known once you see the whole army. So, unfortunately, in order to properly answer this question, we still have to wait for the actual codex.



Thinking about it. Will Fie Dragons be able to score again. Would be nice to make them troops agains.

[SeekingOne]

Thinking about it. Will Fie Dragons be able to score again. Would be nice to make them troops agains.
It has been rumoured that Autarchs will be able to take "paths", that would allow taking a couple of Aspect squads as troops. Yet, even if it proves true, you'll have to take an Autarch... which hasn't been really useful before, and so far there hasn't been any word of him becoming better in any way (except that "path" thing).

[Pssyche]

As a matter of interest.
If Wraithguard don't need a Warlock Spiritseer accompanying them in the new Codex, will we be seeing squads of six Wraithguard in Wave Serpents instead of the five plus Warlock we had in the old Codex?

[SeekingOne]

As a matter of interest.
If Wraithguard don't need a Warlock Spiritseer accompanying them in the new Codex, will we be seeing squads of six Wraithguard in Wave Serpents instead of the five plus Warlock we had in the old Codex?

Theoretically it's quite possible. All we need here is WG having just the standard "Bulky" rule, with no specific extra limitations. Wave Serpents have always transported WG, so I don't think they'll all of sudden be specifically prohibited from doing that in the new 'dex. So, if a WS retains its current transport capacity of 12, it should be capable of carrying 6 models with "Bulky" rule.

As a side note - I wonder how many people still remember that it's precisely mr. Kelly who we should thank for the Serpents getting capacity of 12, as they used to have capacity of 10 in 3rd edition.

[Tyrendian]

Theoretically it's quite possible. All we need here is WG having just the standard "Bulky" rule, with no specific extra limitations. Wave Serpents have always transported WG, so I don't think they'll all of sudden be specifically prohibited from doing that in the new 'dex. So, if a WS retains its current transport capacity of 12, it should be capable of carrying 6 models with "Bulky" rule.

As a side note - I wonder how many people still remember that it's precisely mr. Kelly who we should thank for the Serpents getting capacity of 12, as they used to have capacity of 10 in 3rd edition.

there are no further relevant special rules in the Wraithguard entry printed in the WD besides Bulky - so yes that should work

[davel]

just spotted the I book preview

The army list entry for fire dragons is previewed.

Have heavy aspect armour 3 up
First five cost 110 ( 21 per mod) additional mods 22 pts
Exarch up grade is now plus 10 points

Other than that stats are identical
Fusion gun and melta standard, fire pike and heavy flames. Not a surprise. No indication if war gear has changed stats or rules.

3 exarch powers fast shot, crushing blow, iron resolve

Dave l

[Power Klawz]

We really need to know what those exarch powers do precisely before making a comparison. Still no real word on whether or not Autarchs can make aspects troops either, at least no codex scans that confirm it. Firedragons as troops with powerful exarch powers sound very scary, especially since they can run and shoot now and I'm not sure if Wraith units can.

[Sainhann]

just spotted the I book preview

The army list entry for fire dragons is previewed.

Have heavy aspect armour 3 up
First five cost 110 ( 21 per mod) additional mods 22 pts
Exarch up grade is now plus 10 points

Other than that stats are identical
Fusion gun and melta standard, fire pike and heavy flames. Not a surprise. No indication if war gear has changed stats or rules.

3 exarch powers fast shot, crushing blow, iron resolve

Dave l

First five are 22 points per model (22 x 5 = 110).

So a squad of five with Exarch would be 120 points a full squad no Exarch is 220 points with an Exarch 230 points. So way more expensived than a Squad of Space Marines though they do have a very powerfull short range weapon.

But with Wraithguard being cheaper you might want to go with them. Because they are toughness 5 instead of toughness 3.

Plus have a far more powerful weapon.

[Defenestratus]

WG are Toughness 6.

[Sainhann]

WG are Toughness 6.

Even better, I know which unit I would take and it would not be Fire Dragons.

[rle68]

now that dex is out WG weapons are S10 ap2.. big diff then fire dragons.. no i have not seen FD as a troops option so no... and yes you can put 6 WG in serpent.. but make sure you buy 1 WG with a d scythe S4 AP2 flamer for overwatch

[DarkLink]

You can't buy only one. The D Scythe is all-or-nothing for the squad, which sucks.

[rle68]

You can't buy only one. The D Scythe is all-or-nothing for the squad, which sucks.
thanks didnt catch that .. screw that noise