Skyshield & Assaults (No Room in the Inn)

[Caitsidhe]

So I've been looking for clarification on how you actually "assault" a Skyshield if there is no room for you to get your model up there. :) It looks to me (and I hope I'm missing something) like there is no way to assault it per the RAW unless you have room to physically place your model up there if assaulting from the ground.

The only rules I have found about this deal with Ruins and the Skyshield is most definitely NOT ruins. It isn't a building. It isn't battlements. It is "unique" with the top being treated as open terrain and attempts to move onto it (or assault one presumes) rough terrain. In the case of Ruins if there isn't space you get to assume you are in base to base contact, running up stairs (what have you). No such rule or Faq/Errata seems to exist for the Skyshield.

What this would seem to mean per the RAW is that a line of enemy units blocking your forward motion (you dont' get to move through them) will prevent you from assaulting them period. Obviously Jump Troops and the like can get up there if there is room, moving over opposing units to open space during movement to then assault, but short of that I think you are stuck out in the cold. Is there a rule, faq, or errata I'm missing somewhere?

[Wolfshade]

See: http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?29745-Skyshield-Landing-Pad

[Caitsidhe]

See: http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?29745-Skyshield-Landing-Pad

This doesn't really answer my question though. I have no problem with Jump Troops who get up there on some open, legal spot during movement and then assault. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a unit on the ground below it looking up at a solid line of troops base to base and running along the edge. They can't get up during the assault because they can't move through those troops to get to open space nor is there any open space for the model to be placed.

For "Ruins" this is not an issue because there is a ruling for that in the Ruins section. For Buildings it isn't an issue either as you either can't assault the people in them, or you are assaulting them from an attached building and everyone is considered involved. Battlements also have their own specific rules.

The Skypad does not. I just read all the thread you sent me to and it doesn't address what I'm talking about I don't think.

[Tynskel]

closest models die first, right? SOOooooo, blast them and make room.

[Wolfshade]

I see what you mean, sorry I thought it was discussed with that section.

Yeah the rules have situations for assaulting across two levels on ruins, and the sky sheild isn't a ruin. It isn't a "building" either so you can't use those rules.

Some people try and use the "wobbly model syndrome" rule, that lets you put your model somewhere more secure than where it should be, but I think that is taking it too far.

If you are able to get only one model in B2B, taking your dangerous terrain test to climb up, then you could force the defenders to react and pull them off the terrain in order to get B2B.

[Nabterayl]

I think you are correct that, strictly speaking, you can make it impossible for foot troops to assault onto a Skyshield simply by standing shoulder to shoulder.

Personally, I think the Skyshield should be played as it was in Planetstrike, with the addition of jumping off the edge and ruin-style base-to-base rules at least via the access points. But I think you have correctly identified a consequence of the rules as written.

[Magpie]

So I've been looking for clarification on how you actually "assault" a Skyshield if there is no room for you to get your model up there. :) It looks to me (and I hope I'm missing something) like there is no way to assault it per the RAW unless you have room to physically place your model up there if assaulting from the ground.

The way we play it is that to assault you need to be in B2b with the legs, where the ladders are. If there is an enemy model above you in B2B with the hatch, then you are considered B2B with it. So 3 guys on the ground in base contact with the leg ladder are in B2B with however many enemy are clustered around the top hatch. Guys within 2" of the guys in B2B with the ladders or hatches are "engaged".

Difficult terrain of course.

[rich_clean_jammies]

I could totally see people argue wobbly model syndrome in this case. In fact - I am always amazed at how people can argue that guys are standing on top of the wall or on a space less than a quarter the size of their base or whatnot.

[Nabterayl]

The way we play it is that to assault you need to be in B2b with the legs, where the ladders are. If there is an enemy model above you in B2B with the hatch, then you are considered B2B with it. So 3 guys on the ground in base contact with the leg ladder are in B2B with however many enemy are clustered around the top hatch. Guys within 2" of the guys in B2B with the ladders or hatches are "engaged".

Difficult terrain of course.
This is my preferred treatment as well.

[chicop76]

In other words block off the stairs and you good. I am thinking of using one with infiltrated kroot.

[Wolfshade]

I didn't think that the Sky Sheild had access points...

[Magpie]

In other words block off the stairs and you good. I am thinking of using one with infiltrated kroot.

Not sure how you'd do that? If you do it with units then they can be assaulted to get to the ladders ?


I didn't think that the Sky Sheild had access points...

There is a ladder on the inside of each leg that leads up to a hatch in the floor of the pad.

[Wolfshade]

While it does have obvious access points modelled into it, it does not have them in its entry. It is not a vehicle so you cannot embark into it (or specifically the legs) and it is not a building (like a bastion), those are the only things with access points.


Page 115 – Fortifications, Skyshield Landing Pad.
Ignore the reference to Access Points & Fire Points.
(http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3170233a_40K_RULEBOOK_v1.4_APRIL13.pdf)

[Caitsidhe]

Yeah, the Faq removed Access Points from it so technically you can attempt to go up anywhere along the edge. I agree that in spirit it should probably be treated just like Ruins (as several here clearly state how they do it) but I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything in the RAW treatment. I scoured the books and Faq a few times last night to make sure.

A friend of mine plays a parking lot kind of Imperial Guard army and I had suggested to him that if he is going to do that he is better off deploying them on a Skyshield rather than behind an Aegis since he can NEVER lose the save (as he would against Tau for example). While discussing the merits of the choice it became obvious to me that if he parked his damn tanks properly there wouldn't be any place for someone to get up there without first blowing one up. Even if one didn't cover every square inch of the Sky Shield one could cover enough fo the forward edge to make trying to assault difficult to impossible. Troops would have to move way back to try and reach a spot with a good roll where their models can be placed per the rules.

Hell, with enough careful placement it would even be possible to keep Jump Troops from landing up there legally, i.e. remaining at least 1" from an opposing model. It would be tight packed and vulnerable to big templates, but more than doable. Abusive? Perhaps. A 4+ save isn't going to guarantee an opening can't be made, but it certainly does make the Skyshield a whole HELL of a lot more defensible than an Aegis for a mere 25pts more (depending on the job). I expect that this will get a Faq eventually.

[Wolfshade]

It can be quite quite mean, the difficulty from filling up the pad would be that if the enemy closed to within a close enough range there would be no longer line of sight to them, or vice versa.

I am not sure how I feel about scaling the sides, part of me thinks yes that sounds fine other things it really is too high to do that.

I did stumble upon this http://www.apocprod.com/2013/02/18/40k-tactica-review-skyshield-landing-pad/ which was quite nice.

[Caitsidhe]

It also makes for an interesting option with Huron and a maximum Noise Marine unit kitted out (probably with Lucious or a Lord to make them scoring). One could place the damn thing at the halfway mark. Infiltrate the damn NM onto it to block the edges and then just rain fire and brimstone down via salvo, cover ignoring shooting. You would be pretty safe for a round or two at least, and by that time you might just assault out of it yourself.

[Houghten]

I could totally see people argue wobbly model syndrome in this case. In fact - I am always amazed at how people can argue that guys are standing on top of the wall or on a space less than a quarter the size of their base or whatnot.

I don't know about you, but I don't generally walk around with a base attached to my feet...

[chicop76]

I am seriously thinking about using a skyshield to park all my Tau skyray's on. Anyway I would think you should treat them like ruins. If not than it becomes broken. My question however is how high is it. If it's to high than assaulting at the bottom would be impossible unless you get a guy on top. Even if you get a guy on top you will be limited on how many models would fit on top. This is where my kroot come in. If 4 assaulting models managed to assault my kroot I would probably win combat. Due to the guys below being too far if I kill the 4 guys than combat stops. I plug in the holes and he have to go through a lot of effort to get back on top. The +4 invulnerable helps out kroot a lot against most models, unless they have a +5 save.

As a side note a Tzeentch marked chaos army would have +3 invulnerable saves on the pad.

[Caitsidhe]

Anyway I would think you should treat them like ruins. If not than it becomes broken.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. Even with someone trying to block you out of a charge by not leaving enough room, it just requires your shooting to punch a single hole. If you can get one model up, they are forced to pile in on their own initiative which is likely to take them down. They may Faq it to work like Ruins later. They might not. For now it doesn't and I've learned not to assume anything with Games Workshop.

[Nabterayl]

Don't forget that as the pad now only requires a Difficult Terrain test to enter and we ignore fire points you can, as far as I can see, enter right through the floor.

[chicop76]

How far is the floor from the ground. It can be high enough where you will not able to attack unless you are on the platform.

[Wolfshade]

Don't forget the maximum usual charge range is 2D6", it is less than 12" tall.

[Magpie]

How far is the floor from the ground. It can be high enough where you will not able to attack unless you are on the platform.

I'm not sure exactly but it wouldn't be anymore than 3" off the ground.

[Caitsidhe]

I'm not sure exactly but it wouldn't be anymore than 3" off the ground.

It is higher than that. :D Since you would measure moving from your base to the top of the platform for movement or assaults rather than from the head of the model as you would for checking for unit cohesion, I suspect it is more like 6-7 inches. I need to measure it.

[Caitsidhe]

Don't forget that as the pad now only requires a Difficult Terrain test to enter and we ignore fire points you can, as far as I can see, enter right through the floor.

Actually I'm not sure that you can. You can move through solid walls into Ruins. Models don't get to fly which means they have to move up a surface edge, pylons most likely. The Skyshield is something else. I suspect wanting to levitate up through the floor like a ghost would not amuse your opponent. You can argue it but I think it would probably be best if you simply went up at the edge where one assumes you are climbing over or at a pylon where one assumes you are climbing up. They REALLY need a Faq out on this thing.

[Magpie]

It is higher than that. :D Since you would measure moving from your base to the top of the platform for movement or assaults rather than from the head of the model as you would for checking for unit cohesion, I suspect it is more like 6-7 inches. I need to measure it.

Look at the picture in the rulebook, there is a figure standing on the top, it's nowhere near 6 to 7"

"The Skyshield Landing Pad is a wonderful terrain piece which has been available for some time now. It is a fairly large kit which measures about 15" x 15" when unfurled and just under 12" x 12" when Shielded. It also stands nearly 4" in height. "

http://auspicator.weebly.com/1/post/2012/07/skyshield-landing-pad-happy-landings.html.

http://www.apocprod.com/2013/02/18/40k-tactica-review-skyshield-landing-pad/

[Caitsidhe]

Look at the picture in the rulebook, there is a figure standing on the top, it's nowhere near 6 to 7"

"The Skyshield Landing Pad is a wonderful terrain piece which has been available for some time now. It is a fairly large kit which measures about 15" x 15" when unfurled and just under 12" x 12" when Shielded. It also stands nearly 4" in height. "

http://auspicator.weebly.com/1/post/2012/07/skyshield-landing-pad-happy-landings.html.

http://www.apocprod.com/2013/02/18/40k-tactica-review-skyshield-landing-pad/

I loaned mine out so I can't measure it but I have at least one model that I think is 5"" tall and it can stand under there no problem. So I need to measure that model again I guess... because everything I see says it is 3" tall too. Weird.

[Magpie]

I guess it's not unusual for a chap to over estimate his inches ;)

[Wolfshade]

Actually I'm not sure that you can. You can move through solid walls into Ruins. Models don't get to fly which means they have to move up a surface edge, pylons most likely. The Skyshield is something else. I suspect wanting to levitate up through the floor like a ghost would not amuse your opponent. You can argue it but I think it would probably be best if you simply went up at the edge where one assumes you are climbing over or at a pylon where one assumes you are climbing up. They REALLY need a Faq out on this thing.

From a fluff perspective. The commanders know that they will be fighting in battle field with a sky shield landing pad. When each squad is given their orders of battle the ones that are to assault the sky pad would be given additional equipment to enable them to do so such as grapple lines or the 41st M equivalent.

[Caitsidhe]

From a fluff perspective. The commanders know that they will be fighting in battle field with a sky shield landing pad. When each squad is given their orders of battle the ones that are to assault the sky pad would be given additional equipment to enable them to do so such as grapple lines or the 41st M equivalent.

Of this I have no doubt, but that is quite a bit different from having them phase through the floor. :) I agree with you that they can come over any edge. I just don't think they can come through a sold wall because you can only do that in ruins.

[Caitsidhe]

I guess it's not unusual for a chap to over estimate his inches ;)

<laughs> Apparently so. I measured it and it is only 3" high. The Daemon Prince I converted from a Cthullu model had magnetized wings which make him taller than would fit. I had forgotten that they will just push down when he is jammed under there since the magnets allow it.

[chicop76]

It's more than 3". It's about 4.5". I used it this weekend which I learned not to put too many models on top ve a heavy template army.

[Wolfshade]

Of this I have no doubt, but that is quite a bit different from having them phase through the floor. :) I agree with you that they can come over any edge. I just don't think they can come through a sold wall because you can only do that in ruins.

And we are agreed that it isn't a ruin. It would save a lot of the issues if it were a ruin (whose floor is impassable vertically), or had defined access points or what not

[Caitsidhe]

And we are agreed that it isn't a ruin. It would save a lot of the issues if it were a ruin (whose floor is impassable vertically), or had defined access points or what not

Yep. We are 100% agreed.

[Kaiserdean]

Can you assault (or shoot) the sky shield itself?

It's a unique building type... (with a possible 14 armor as per the building description type.) I'd be nice to actually just smash the ant hill instead of trying to fight the ants swarming on it.

[Magpie]

I don't think so, the platform is considered open ground.

[Caitsidhe]

Since no AR is given for it, not yet. Perhaps they will change that in the future. For the time being, the thing is pretty much indestructable.