Do you play with special characters?

[Bitrider]

I know some folks do and some folks don't. I like playing with them for the power and special rules. I like seeing the big names one the board. However, I know that some people have strong opinions on NOT playing with them even to the point of not playing an opponent if they see a special character in the opposing army list. This is included named characters as an upgrade.

What are your thoughts? Do you play with them?

[Pater Sin]

I have to use special characters with my Dark Eldar because Lelith is the only HQ unit I have. I only brought her because I liked the model, I didn't even know what ther rules were.

[Eberk]

I never used a special character in a battle and I don't think I ever will. I would rather make my own HQ unit and (through his battles) build him a story. (when I like a special character model, I will buy and use it but use 'normal' HQ stats)

Don't mind playing against a special character every once in a while but I draw the line when the SAME person uses the SAME special character in EACH of his games (come on... how boring is it to always see Kairos Fateweaver, Abaddon of Magnus Calgar appear in your battles)

[magickbk]

Some people are forced to use Special Characters in order to field their armies. For example, Grey Knights codex replaced Daemonhunters, and in order to field an army full of non-Grey Knights, you have to take Coteaz. Or, in order to field a Deathwing army, you have to take Belial. That is a little different than say, someone fielding Eldrad Ulthran in every game. I find most special characters to be over-pointed anyway, so I don't mind.

[Tyrendian]

I really don't see a reason not to allow named characters - they are in the books after all... even ones from FW are not a problem for me (or my gang), and when someone comes up with a cool concept for a character they would like to play we sometimes even meet to design rules for him/her in a joint effort (so as to keep it fair) and all look forward to seeing how our guy does on the field :)

[zenjah]

I never used a special character in a battle and I don't think I ever will. I would rather make my own HQ unit and (through his battles) build him a story. (when I like a special character model, I will buy and use it but use 'normal' HQ stats)

I like to build up a story for my own HQ as well. For me, using special character rules doesn't get in the way of that. They are just rules.

So my counts-as-Abaddon character has his own fluff. He also uses the rules for Abaddon. Works fine. I don't always use him, but I wouldn't feel bad about it if I did.

[Chexmix282]

Special characters used to be frowned upon, as some actually required your opponent's permission for use per the codex. Obviously GW has greatly changed their outlook on special characters, as now some of the best/most interesting army builds can only be constructed with the use of characters.

In my opinion, with today's army books, stating "I won't play against special characters" is similar to saying "I won't play against Assault Terminators". They are an entry in the codex and should only be treated as such.

[Gotthammer]

I've played with a quite few over the years:

- Lady Malys is fun to go up against, she always brings different lists and is trying new units out for fun, she seems to have three or four big armies and at least one in every system so it's never the same over and over again.
- Creed's tactical genius is overrated, dude insists guardian heavy footdar is viable... but we all know if it is in the new dex he won't shut up about it.
- Zogwort's apparently a great player and runs pure Deathwing like a pro, but his hygene has kept me from challenging him (take a shower buddy!).
- Kantor's big on fluff heavy armies but can be pretty aloof with his whole "I've been playing since first edition" act.
- Saint Celestine's green tide is a pain, and she's just started a Pan-O force that's shaping up to be nasty, but she's really nice and friendly so you at least have fun when she crushes you.
- I stay away from Eldrad, he's a little too into his panzers in FoW, if you know what I mean...
- Harker has an absolutely amazing Nurgle list - all converted, heaps of scratch builds and Forge World stuff. I'm surprised he's never won a Golden Demon, though lately he's been into a lot of LE resin stuff and not gaming so much. Hopefully when Arena Rex drops he'll be back at the tables.
- Whatever you do do not play the Sanguinor - he runs the cheesiest flavour of the month lists, three colour minimum if that and doesn't know the rules at all. Would be tolerable if it wasn't for his awful attitude and really suspect rolling. He brought this ridiculous 'cron airforce list to a tourney and was arguing the smallest rules and LoS issues but would freak out if anyone questions him. I think people only play him because Dante's such a nice guy.
- Never played Grimnar in 40k, but apparently he's got a new Tau list that's tough to crack (good Blood bowl player though) and his Haqisslam are triple tourney winners.
- Feel sorry for Azrael though, he always just hangs out at the painting table since nobody else plays LotR. At least he stopped bringing his Watchers in, they were always grabbing at stuff and breaking models or moving units in games... I think Calgar and Lysander were close to banning him from the store on game night which wouldn've sucked. He's a nice guy if a bit moody sometimes. Ghaz's kids are real nice though, he's getting them into the hobby through Freebooter's Fate.

[Denzark]

I think they are awesome. I think the only 2 codexes where you can build a warlord as good as the best named character, is probably SW and Chaos.

[Nabterayl]

I have a warboss named Skraga Blitzkrag da Patient, whose story was built up over a number of years. When IA8 came out, I started using Zhardsnark to represent him, because his special rules better the character my friends and I all knew better than the standard HQ did. My group pretty regularly uses special characters to represent our own characters when the SC's rules better represent the character concept we already have.

[Archon]

I really don´t like SCs. Thats so, since my early days in fantasy. We never played them much and most times they are too over the top. Nowadays, when I took a look at tournament GK-Listes, geuss who´s showing up: The cheaply underpriced and overused coatez - this is the most hated of special chars, he is so broken, like the codex hes out of. Since GK spams the tournaments its no fun to play these. But i am drifting of... :rolleyes:

SCs are too definied an mostly the are fluffwise to "big" to be on a battlefiled with a handfull of points. Abi should leading a 3K force minimum. For example.

The only SCs I like to use are: Lucius - it is very rarley, that i play him though i like his rules, his story und EC/Slaanesh in general. He little bit overpriced compared to his buddys.
Sometimes I play Marbo but I don´t see him as a SC.

Since Choas has only a 1/6 Chance of infiltrate (yes they stole infiltrate from chaos, look back. In the last codex we have the choosen and in the holy book before that crap of codex you a have the freedom of choice and could infiltrate a whole army (AL)) I plan to use a IW Chars with the rules of Huron. Not that he will allow you to infiltrate, no he has perceft stats for a IW hero (armourbane) and a bonus, he can make a little bit of sorcerey - come on, how to do you get that with a normal lord for 160 pts?

But I still don´t like SCs.

[chicop76]

Depends on what army I am playing. Grey Knights and Sisters I use special Characters so in one I don't have to play grey knights and in the other the regular hq went to huge suck space.

With my Tau and Daemons I don't feel the need to do so. The character options make it to where you can field a decent army without the need of special characters. In daemons it's hard to use on without taking a tax. Fateweaver is awesome, but he is support ranged. You need to take a beat stick that takes away your other hw slot. You can go flying circus and have litterly almost no troops.

I think if you have been playing since 5th than you should had lost I will not play attitude. I can see in 4th and under it made sence. Now it is srongly encouraged. Like in dark angels I have to get a special character if I want an all bike army, and with vanilla marines they just need a captain on a bike.

[DarkLink]

People used to get really whiny about special characters. Luckily most of the community has grown out of it, even to the extent of realizing that most special characters really even aren't that good. Grey Knights only use Draigo and Crowe to swap troops (Coteaz is really, really good, but he's certainly not broken, broken implies something that can't reasonably be beaten, and Coteaz is nothing like, say, the Farseer Fortune DE Archon with rerollable 2++ save, he just has lots of useful abilities and he's pretty good in combat, all for very cheap). There are only a few special characters that are better in any meaningful way than the generic HQs.

[Wolfshade]

A lot of hang ups are inherited from previous editions where you had to have your opponents permission to take them.
I tend to play a lot of games at the 1,000 - 1,500 pt range and so special characters are really too expensive to take in my opinion.
Imagine a BA list that takes Mephiston, that then leaves you 750pts left to field an army.
Having said that I have used Mephiston since 2nd and he is my favourite. CC monster.
Lemartes I often take for my DC as he is the same price as a chaplain + jump pack so that is a bit of a no-brainer.
But usually, I end up taking a libriain for cheapness.

When running orks, it is unusual that I take a special character after all boyz before toyz. Sometimes I take Old Zogwort but that is for random fun, aterall nothing is better than seeing a model turned into a squg, especially if it is some big hero type.

One of the things I dislike is the thought of these big name characters, like Dante who conducted the other chapter masters during the 2nd war for armageddon being used on such a small scale, I imagine that they would be too important to be utilised in sch a small skirmish.

[pgarfunkle]

I don't have an issue with special characters in games, sometimes I'll use them and sometimes stick to the stock heroes. In smaller games some of the higher tier characters can be a bit much especially if your opponent isn't expecting them but generally if I can come up with some sort of narrative for the head honchos to be involved in a smaller battle then it's cool. I mean someone you might think that a character like Dante would not be involved in anything smaller than an apocalypse battle or you could think he is leading a special mission or task force to achieve an objective while a larger battle rages elsewhere

[DarkLink]

That the higher ranking officers would be fighting at all is nonsense. Don't think about it too hard.

[Deadlift]

I like SC, but then I'm more into fluff lists and they add a bit of extra fun for me, I usually always run 2 HQ despite the points cost and its 1 SC And 1 generic dude. Example say Vulcan and a Libby in TDA. However my Cron lists are always generic overlords with the obligatory war gear because to be frank they are just too good not to use.

[Anakzar]

I am mainly a Tyranid player and almost everyone I play against uses special characters, most of whom are overpowered and too cheap in my opinion. So I decided to join them and brought in the doom and swarmlord for tourney play. The doom is sort of over powered for its cost and I hear a lot of whining but I just point out their characters and it usually stops.

Many of the tyranid special chars rules are abit too complicated to take for games with a time limit and can slow the game down.. so I don't like them for that reason. The lector(deathleaper) special char is closer to what the standard lictor should be... if he didn't have all those special rules to slow the game down and don't get me started with the parasite, its not that its that slow to use the rules but people always have to see those rules in the codex before they will believe them... and even then there is whining.


For orks you are forced to take a special char if you want to have fast attack biker type army. I would be just as happy to take a war boss on a bike if it gave me biker troops. With a war boss I can take one group of nobs as a troop and put them all on bikes along with the boss and a painboy... makes a expensive hard to kill unit. So there are works around but its not the same as being able to field an all biker army with the special char.

I liked the old days when I could give all my orks a ride and call them evil suns and be fluffy ;) Or go with blood axes and use some guard tanks painted badly with bits stuck on randomly. Back then all the Blood ax komandos could take power axes and imperial ranged weapons.

Well rambled on enough for now...

Personally I liked how the old 2nd ed ork codex was based off what clan you had taken the boys mob from instead of it being based off Special chars. And it might be nice to try to go back and bring that idea into
6th.

[Mr.Pickelz]

I find that a SC makes for a fun time and adds character to a fluffy list, like Wazdakka and lots of Bikerz, or Ghazkull leading multiple boyz mobz, Or Draigo with a squad of paladins deepstriking right into the enemy forces.

old habits say that SC's are only in larger battles where their "generally better" qualities are more balanced, but even at lower levels the cost of an SC usually is the balancing factor. Draigo is 275 or close to that in points cost, and that's a hard sell when looking at a 1,000 point list. Same goes for Wazdakka, and Ghazkull. Both these character are a points investment and leave no room for versatility, Space Marines i find is a bit of an oddball when it comes to this, in that their characters aren't as aspect focused as Xenos characters are. Even Lysander has a good Ballistic Skill, even though he's melee focused wargear wise.

[chicop76]

Personally the Doom is the most overpower piece of @;*&%? Of all times. Even worst with broodlords and deathleaper lowering leadership when the doom ds in the middle of you army. What's aggrivating is for 2 turns he blast you with his area effect.

Even if you kill it more than likely the doom has easily made back it's points. What's worst is the aure effect is not a psychic power. If models are deepstriking with the doom than it is pretty much game over. Trygon primes with 2 squads of 20 devil gaunts.

[Black Katalyst]

I like using special characters and I like when my opponents use them too. I like the character it adds to the table, almost like seeing a battle out of a book unfolding infront of me.

I really like when SC's are used in a fluffy army. A Farsight Enclave or Belial and his Deathwing deepstriking on the table, or Abbadon leading a hoarde of CSM.

[daboarder]

Personally the Doom is the most overpower piece of @;*&%? Of all times. Even worst with broodlords and deathleaper lowering leadership when the doom ds in the middle of you army. What's aggrivating is for 2 turns he blast you with his area effect.

Even if you kill it more than likely the doom has easily made back it's points. What's worst is the aure effect is not a psychic power. If models are deepstriking with the doom than it is pretty much game over. Trygon primes with 2 squads of 20 devil gaunts.

1 dev squad = dead DoM.

most people complain about SC because they change the game dynamics, forcing people to think differently. As such they are necessary to keep the game fresh and variable otherwise it would stagnate.

[DarkLink]

DoM is not that difficult for most armies to deal with if you have a halfway decent list and are a halfway decent player. It's pretty good and certainly annoying, but it's far from overpowered.

[slobulous]

Personally the Doom is the most overpower piece of @;*&%? Of all times. Even worst with broodlords and deathleaper lowering leadership when the doom ds in the middle of you army. What's aggrivating is for 2 turns he blast you with his area effect.

Even if you kill it more than likely the doom has easily made back it's points. What's worst is the aure effect is not a psychic power. If models are deepstriking with the doom than it is pretty much game over. Trygon primes with 2 squads of 20 devil gaunts.

The DoM is really not as scary as you're making it out to be. Last time I played against Nids, the DoM came down right in the middle of my forces in a spore pod, and my Broadsides insta-jibbed it before it even made it to its first shooting phase. Heavy Rail Rifles and Interceptor.

[Houghten]

How'd they get Interceptor?

[daboarder]

How'd they get Interceptor?

Early warning override

[Kamin_Majere]

I'll use special characters if the games I'm playing warrant it, but usually I don't. I still like them being rare and rarely seen. It makes it more interesting when they come out finally.

[Wolfshade]

1 dev squad = dead DoM.

most people complain about SC because they change the game dynamics, forcing people to think differently. As such they are necessary to keep the game fresh and variable otherwise it would stagnate.


DoM is not that difficult for most armies to deal with if you have a halfway decent list and are a halfway decent player. It's pretty good and certainly annoying, but it's far from overpowered.


The DoM is really not as scary as you're making it out to be. Last time I played against Nids, the DoM came down right in the middle of my forces in a spore pod, and my Broadsides insta-jibbed it before it even made it to its first shooting phase. Heavy Rail Rifles and Interceptor.

This is it really, DoM is a threat, but like the drop podded stern guard, they often turn into a one use wonder, and while it may stall your opponents plan. Ultimately, there ability to drop death is minimised to one target.

There is this article here: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/04/40k-in-defense-of-space-marine-captains.html

[OrksOrksOrks]

As i did most of my playing in 2nd ed, where Special Characters were only used with opponents permission and had minimum points levels where they could be used, Special Characters make me a little uncomfortable!

[chicop76]

This is it really, DoM is a threat, but like the drop podded stern guard, they often turn into a one use wonder, and while it may stall your opponents plan. Ultimately, there ability to drop death is minimised to one target.

There is this article here: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/04/40k-in-defense-of-space-marine-captains.html

The doom really depends on the player and what he is supporting with it. You have to get pass a multi-wound creature with a 3+ invulnerable.

I played against it several times and against a few armies it's devestating.

Ok let's say it plops in the middle of a tau army. With early warning overide your broadsides with rail rifles have a decent chance of taking out if you hit it with all 3 railguns and it fails 1 out of 3 of the wounds. However since this is not such a perfect world it still have a good chance of dropping and pointing it's middle finger at you.

Once it lands that's where the fun begins. It than use it's aura to fry all those around it. Let's say it hit 5 units and let's assume you're leadership 10 you will have to roll 10 are under 5 times with three dice with average rolling being 9.5. Not only you have to weather that and his pie plate attack. You have to weather the aura again during the start of your shooting phase.

Is it beatable. Yes. Is it a nid auto win. Can it very easily make up it's points back for it's cheap cost. Yes.

Off course you going to focus your fire power in it since it's aura is a 2ft diameter melting away your army. You realy have no choice to do so. While you playing with that model you have to contend with that Trigon you didn't shot at since you was blasting away at the doom. It's very possible that when you shoot at the doom it can easily have 6 or more wounds on it which makes instant killing it a better choice. Which means 4 strength 8 or higher shots at marine BS to kill it on average, could had been 3 wounds on a trigon.

Anyway it's a huge distraction and if say 2 deep striking Trygons, a few gaunts, and 3 zonanthorpes, 2 winged tyrants are breathing down your throat you are focusing on the doom that only dies when it fails it's invulnerable. Meaning that if it's a lucky rolling SoB that can roll 16 times till he finally rolls a one or two. You already wasted a good portion of your fire power trying to kill the thing. At the same token you have someone who goes the doom sounds awsome they play it and get hit with one missile and it dies, that heppened to my old Fateweaver before.

It's a model is the most broken piece of crap in the game. Nothing in Grey Knights is that bad. Necrons are a differant story. Necrons have a lot of broken tools.

[Demonus]

I love special characters and use them mixed with regular characters all the time.

[Sonikgav]

It depends on the Army and the Charachter being used.

I dont mind people taking Charachters against me, but it kinda stands out if theyve just taken it for the power increase. I appreciate if it adds something to their army they cant get elsewhere, moves around their FOC, or if a Charachter solves a problem in the list somehow.

What does piss me off are those that just CANT leave a Charachter out of it.

Of all the Armies i play i use maybe 6, and 3 of them are Tyranids:-
*Obyron in my Necrons to add that Mobility and surprise element
*Khan in my Space Marine all biker force for FOC (more cost effective than a SM Biker Captain)
*Castellan Crowe in my Grey Knights to move Paladins to Troops
*Swarmlord, Ymgarls and Doom in my Tyranids for the only lvl2 Psyker in the book and the Ymgarls/Dooms ability to disrupt and get in peoples faces faster than anything else in the book.

Ive also experimented with Deathleaper and Parasite in different builds (Leaper again is brilliant disruption and a 90 Gargoyle list headed by the Parasite is kinda funny to see ;)) but there are plenty of armies i play including my Orks, Tau, Daemons, Chaos Marines (basically every other army barring Dark Eldar since i dont play them) that dont use any.

There are some people i regularly play against though, that just cant comprehend a list without a Charachter. I havent seen an Eldar army without Eldrad in months. Theres one guy that allies a single 5man Blood Angels Tac squad in every list he runs so he can take Mephiston. Infact his actual BA list has Mephiston, Dante, Lemartes and Corbulo (possibly Astorath too but i havent played him in a while) so its safe to say he likes his Charachters.

Im about to start collecting the new Eldar and unless I need a special Charachter for the Wraithguards to be Troops then i doubt ill be using one in that army either.

[Houghten]

With early warning overide your broadsides with rail rifles have a decent chance of taking out if you hit it with all 3 railguns and it fails 1 out of 3 of the wounds.

Only one model in a Broadside unit (the Shas'vre) can take an early warning override. Are you spending all your heavy support slots on them?

[Sonikgav]

Only one model in a Broadside unit (the Shas'vre) can take an early warning override. Are you spending all your heavy support slots on them?

Every model can take any Support item they want. Being a Shas'vre doesnt really change anything for the Broadsides besides an extra point of Leadership.

[chicop76]

Every model can take any Support item they want. Being a Shas'vre doesnt really change anything for the Broadsides besides an extra point of Leadership.

That is correct. Broadsides always had one open slot. I miss having A.S.S. target lock an or early warning in my opinion is the best way to go.

[Sonikgav]

That is correct. Broadsides always had one open slot. I miss having A.S.S. target lock an or early warning in my opinion is the best way to go.

Personally i run 2 Salvo-Sides and 1 Rail-Side in a unit. The 2 with missiles have Interceptor, the 1 with the Railgun has Target Lock.

Id also give some thought to the Advanced Targeting System though, especially in a list low on Markerlights. Overwatch on a 5+ can make a difference when everything you have is Twin Linked.

[Houghten]

Apparently I misread. Good to know.

[Asuryan]

I play elder and I always use Eldrad, because it allows me have one hq's that does job of two which frees up another for an avatar or another farseer. Is Eldrad extremely useful yes, but he is not broken in any shape. Trying to kill him with his almost guaranteed rerolling 3++ save is difficult, but if you want to beat him just ignore him. shoot or attack the non fortuned units, and if hes only using guide and doom then his units should be easy to kill and effectively cripple the army.

[Power Klawz]

I don't like special characters and it has nothing to do with how they impact gameplay. In a way the shift in attitude and treatment of special characters is indicative of what has happened to this hobby specifically, and imagination based hobbies generally.

Special characters were, at one point, singular personae who had a historical impact on the setting. They were fun little conceits thrown in by the designers, almost like Easter eggs. For a role playing game (and that is basically what 40k was, albeit one which focused on large scale combat to the exclusion of minutiae that most other role playing games find themselves getting bogged down with, although obviously not immune to it. Anyone remember anti-plant grenades and troops without environmentally sealed armor?) the emphasis should always be on expanding potential.

What potential stories can the players tell? what sorts of tactical decision can they make?

You define only as much as is needed to give the setting form. Most long time role players will take it from there, just describe the setting and the rules and they'll create their own characters and stories to populate it. Of course some people will need a more handholding introduction, and some people will appreciate more depth to the setting vis a vis the detailed army lists and descriptions we've seen in codexes since the early ages of 40k. There does come a point, however, when exposition becomes dictation and when people stop trying to create something and instead just start playing with something.

Role playing games are, of course, games at heart. They are not jobs, they do not make you money or meaningfully enrich your education or knowledge base. They don't perform any particularly useful function other than entertaining, however what they do accomplish in a rather unique way is a blending of play with art. When you sit down and build a communal narrative with friends you are creating art, whether that narrative is something as simple as Warboss Bogruk Tha Drilla mounting an offensive against the hapless tau outpost on Kul'amus 7 or as complex as a sector wide war involving shifting alliances and global destruction. You are building a story, a fiction that involves far more than simply adding together points and rolling dice.

When special characters stopped being interesting little extra bits and became just another army list decision was when the role playing elements of the game went by the wayside. When the emphasis went from a fun and quirky universe in which to battle out your own farfetched war scenarios and planted itself firmly in the realm of narrative free tactical simulation. The names and faces and histories became stifling certainties instead of interesting suggestions, now instead of using Mephiston as inspiration you use him as your HQ choice because he fulfill some specific gameplay necessity, not because he would realistically be involved in the conflict that you're not actually enacting, because none of the armies have any real personality left, they're just rules and numbers with a few poorly written stories to go along with them, purely optional content of course.

Special characters providing unique mechanics and gameplay options was the design studio finally giving up on supporting creative storytelling as a main component of their game. I guess they just peered out over the vast vista that is wargaming and found that it had lost its soul, and instead of trying to perform some alchemical miracle to breathe new vigor into that ancient beast they set about the grim business of harvesting what remained of its corpse. I can't say that I blame them, but I do mourn their decision.

Perhaps sadder still is that what is lost is paltry compared to what will be lost if this trend continues. I myself am a grown man with my childhood memories all ready generated, I was able to visit the realms of fantasy and wonder that seem to exist only in a child's mind. I was afforded the opportunity to explore my own imagination without restraint or cynical comment. I never felt ashamed of any of this.

Maybe these are just the first weezings from an inevitably old man, but the world seems to be changing into something terribly literal for children. I grew up in the heyday of the video gaming industry of course, I witnessed the transition from simple, pixelated graphics to full 3d gameplay, from simplistic or non-existent narratives in games to writing and character building on par with most Hollywood productions. (which isn't to say that either is a very high bar of quality.) As a child and as a younger man I could find myself absorbed by these games, but always found myself returning to more freeform entertainment, always I found myself constrained by the limitations of technology, limitations which the human mind does not suffer from.

I fear that children today are so inundated with pre-fabricated entertainment that they might never even know what they are missing. When such things as photo-realistic graphics and complex (but not infinite) gameplay are just a part of your everyday reality from the first moments of dawning sentience I wonder when you find the time to imagine something else, something new. If you spend your childhood playing World of Warcraft, or copying net lists to beat your friends without any thought to creating a narrative I feel like you've missed the point entirely. The human mind is quite susceptible to addiction, repetitive rewarding actions cause habits that can be stifling to all other endeavors. If you sit in front of a computer screen for 5 hours a day playing the same game and only use your imagination to think of better ways to accomplish the same goals you might find that your imagination shrivels, you are trapped in the box and might never even contemplate such a thing as outside of it, let alone figure out how to conceptualize that concept.

When you remove the soul of a role playing game, when you are no longer playing a role or building a character (in the narrative sense) you are approaching this sort of mindless ideal of perform proper action, get appropriate reward. Maybe in a professional context such sentiments are appropriate, you don't want to risk too much on a poor business decision. But for children and for those times when your life or livelihood aren't on the line why would you wish to stifle your imagination so? There is no magic in figuring out the best method to deepstrike terminators, or how to balance your checkbook. These are just skills with a very mundane purpose; win games, build wealth, avoid litigation. The magic exists only in those rare spaces where the impossible is conceived, where new life takes form in the mind.

[zenjah]

You can make up just as much narrative around a special character as you can a generic one.

In fact, I see the special characters as interchangeable with generic characters. There is no reason at all to get caught up worrying about why Marbo is always running around with your Vostroyans. He isn't. A sneaky loner of your own creation is running around with the Vostroyans. He just happens to use the Marbo statline. The fact that the statline was presented for an individual named Marbo doesn't matter one bit. Think of Marbo as a perfect example of the type of rare loner you'd expect in an IG army. But not the only one imaginable.

If your vanilla Captain can have a creative back-story and an ongoing narrative, so can your Captain that uses the statline of a special character. If you see a limit there, it is self imposed. You are curtailing your own creativity because of incorrect assumptions about the intent of special characters.

[daboarder]

The doom really depends on the player and what he is supporting with it. You have to get pass a multi-wound creature with a 3+ invulnerable.

I played against it several times and against a few armies it's devestating.

Ok let's say it plops in the middle of a tau army. With early warning overide your broadsides with rail rifles have a decent chance of taking out if you hit it with all 3 railguns and it fails 1 out of 3 of the wounds. However since this is not such a perfect world it still have a good chance of dropping and pointing it's middle finger at you.

Once it lands that's where the fun begins. It than use it's aura to fry all those around it. Let's say it hit 5 units and let's assume you're leadership 10 you will have to roll 10 are under 5 times with three dice with average rolling being 9.5. Not only you have to weather that and his pie plate attack. You have to weather the aura again during the start of your shooting phase.

Is it beatable. Yes. Is it a nid auto win. Can it very easily make up it's points back for it's cheap cost. Yes.

Off course you going to focus your fire power in it since it's aura is a 2ft diameter melting away your army. You realy have no choice to do so. While you playing with that model you have to contend with that Trigon you didn't shot at since you was blasting away at the doom. It's very possible that when you shoot at the doom it can easily have 6 or more wounds on it which makes instant killing it a better choice. Which means 4 strength 8 or higher shots at marine BS to kill it on average, could had been 3 wounds on a trigon.

Anyway it's a huge distraction and if say 2 deep striking Trygons, a few gaunts, and 3 zonanthorpes, 2 winged tyrants are breathing down your throat you are focusing on the doom that only dies when it fails it's invulnerable. Meaning that if it's a lucky rolling SoB that can roll 16 times till he finally rolls a one or two. You already wasted a good portion of your fire power trying to kill the thing. At the same token you have someone who goes the doom sounds awsome they play it and get hit with one missile and it dies, that heppened to my old Fateweaver before.

It's a model is the most broken piece of crap in the game. Nothing in Grey Knights is that bad. Necrons are a differant story. Necrons have a lot of broken tools.

Just...I dunno if you don't get that 2 S8 weapons have a good chance of killing the DoM....

look it doesn't "suck up firepower", Nor does it act as "a uge distraction" if your opponent is reacting appropriately it should take 3 S8 shots to the face and be statistically dead.

The DoM live on the outliers, some games it will be fantastic and eeat whole armies, other games it will die to a powerfist/meltagun without killing a single model. Its also worth noting that as people llearn more the death by S8 is more and more likely.

[Asuryan]

As an elder player the only option of st8 is EML, BL, Fire dragons, or Pulsar. and since in this edition I have no access to interceptor except the Icarus Lascannon, but at one shot it most likely will make its save, so the best option for me would be War Walkers with EML to take it out which I would place a fair bet on them being able to beat the doom, but as Walkers are as tough as wet paper towels I wouldn't put money on them making it to my second or third shooting phase (depending on if I go first or second) against a good player. and for PF unless they are on terminators with SS as well I wouldn't hold my breath on them surviving the doom's powers twice unless they are extremely lucky or have loaded dice.

[chicop76]

Just...I dunno if you don't get that 2 S8 weapons have a good chance of killing the DoM....

look it doesn't "suck up firepower", Nor does it act as "a uge distraction" if your opponent is reacting appropriately it should take 3 S8 shots to the face and be statistically dead.

The DoM live on the outliers, some games it will be fantastic and eeat whole armies, other games it will die to a powerfist/meltagun without killing a single model. Its also worth noting that as people llearn more the death by S8 is more and more likely.


How you get 3 strength 8 shots and it's dead. 3 strength 8 wounds yes, but shots lol. Heck one shot can kill it really, but it depends how well you hit and how well you save. IG would need 6 strength 8 shots to kill a doom on average, while space marins need at least 4.

The point is 6-4 shots is not garenteed. It can always save on a 3+. You can wound it 12 times and if it makes all it's 3+ saves than it's still there and can put a serious dent in your army.

The amount of points you invest in the doom makes it broken. Even in combat during the shooting phase it can aura kill. It can survive combat with a powerfist. All it has to do is soak fire away from the main nid army or hold on till more nids arrive. With a zonathorpe at least you can kill it with mass fire. With a doom it forces you to go for the instant kill.

[DarkLink]

Fire Dragons will destroy the Doom. And you're over-exaggerating the lethality of the Doom. It's a leadership test on 3d6. That's maybe 2-3 models a squad, with only a 6" range. Interceptor if possible, and it won't even get that. Move outside of 6" and it'll have to chase you, and it shouldn't live through your shooting phase. It's possible for it to kill a lot of stuff, if you roll really, really high on the leadership tests, but it's not that scary nor even that hard to kill.

Eldar are a poor comparison anyways, they don't get much str 8 because of how outdated their codex is. Just because a weak, outdated army might have a tough time dealing with it doesn't make it broken or OP.

[Asuryan]

well lets look at tau then, and for arguments sake it needs to survive the interceptor fire which depending on how much fire they have it easily could. the doom comes down behind the back line in the middle of the army, and unless I'm mistaken will be close to almost every unit the tau player has because of the 6 inch support fire, added with the lower than average leadership of the tau the doom could make it's points back quite easily. and if the doom is behind them moving to the side would work for the further units but the closer ones would have to move forward towards the rest of the tyranids, and to make sure they are out for the doom's shooting phase they would have to run, preventing them from shooting and if they run and try and spread out the supporting fire will not be as devastating. All of this from one well placed model.

[Sonikgav]

Fire Dragons would, but this is after the Doom has Arrived, done its biz but youre planning in a void.

In my list for example, against an average Eldar list (one i played a few weeks back actually) I dropped the Doom into the highest conentration i could find. It did its biz and killed about 10 models between 3 squads, caused 1 to break. THEN it fired its Warp blast (got it past Eldrad thankfully). Popped the Falcon those Fire Warriors were in and my Ymgarl Genestealers got hold of them before they could fire a shot.

Come my opponents turn to shoot the Doom is on (i think it was 8 wounds), his high strength shots were saved and Shadow in the Warp blocked fortune and doom (rolled 11 twice).

Again its a purely vs Eldar comparison, against only 1 list in a 1 off environment where averages dont really come into it. But I think its a bit insulting to say that Doom is only usefull against Noobs.

The Doom has a lot of uses in the current 'Aegis heavy' Meta. Clumped up Guardsmen, Eldar, Tau all cowering behind an Aegis these days, all bunched up together, EXACTLY how the Doom likes it.

[DarkLink]

What Eldar army doesn't have Fire Dragons? Seriously, they're one of the only good units in the whole book. And citing a game where the dice were clearly in your favor isn't much of an argument. Nor did I say that the Doom is only useful against Noobs.

The Doom is good. But there are plenty of ways to deal with him, so he's not broken.

[Asuryan]

What Eldar army doesn't have Fire Dragons? Seriously, they're one of the only good units in the whole book.

Mine doesn't. I one don't have the models but because I don't like them in game I have never felt the need to go out and buy some.

[Learn2Eel]

Yes, I do. I've used Abaddon, Typhus, Ahriman, Lucius, Asdrubael Vect, Lady Malys, the Doom of Malan'tai, Kaldor Draigo, Inquisitor Coteaz and Kairos Fateweaver.
I have played against countless more.
I find their inclusion into the game to be very fun and fluffy, though they are not always "balanced" - though the same can be said of many generic characters.

Lately, I've been trying out a themed Thousand Sons list with Ahriman at 1500 points. Ahriman joins eight Terminators (nine strong unit) backed by two nine-strong Thousand Sons units and eighteen Cultists (because of the minimum ten in a unit). Because of their similarity to the old Tzeentch Epic scale flyers, and that they have AP3 weapons, I also have a pair of Heldrakes. It is a shoddy army list that works because Ahriman is so darn useful with his Infiltrate - and his psychic powers do make a big difference provided you don't roll badly - and the Heldrakes are just too darn difficult to deal with (which I don't like, so I may switch them out if I can find something that works for theme purposes). In a recent game against a Tau tournament player, I managed a draw in the face of overwhelming odds simply because my army is so darn good at removing enemy scoring units if they aren't either in hordes or in transports. I can't deal with any kind of vehicle at long range though, but eh.
So, long story short, I am really starting to appreciate Ahriman's abilities, though I am lucky that I have yet to roll a Perils of the Warp!

On the Doom, it is so darn good because it is incredibly inexpensive for what it does. Taking it in a 1500 point list doesn't eat up as much of your points as you might think (though admittedly much of the Tyranid army is over-costed), and it has the potential to win games on its own (I've watched it do so several times). It isn't broken because it can be dealt with quite easily provided you know the appropriate way to attack it, though it depends on the opponent. Some seem to forget that it also has a nasty pie plate attack, though with Deny the Witch and scatter, it isn't amazing. If your opponent fails to kill it with any Strength eight or higher weapons when it drops, it can make its points back doubly in record time. That, and it scares the pants off of a lot of players. For those reasons alone, and how cheap it is, I think it is worth taking every time.

[chicop76]

It's broken due to it"s double aura effect, and it's firing before most armies could do anything about it. The nid drop pod as long you make sure you're 12" away from the board edge you can land just fine. Once you disembark 6" you can easily correct your ds mistake.

Tau and Grey Knights is the only armies to kill the doom before it's effects go off. Than again it's only realistic that Tau would kill it before it does anything, so Tau is the only army to kill it, but that calls for 3 twin rail guns, instead of those high yield missle pods. Meaning even against Tau it is likely to come out alive with the lost of a few wounds.

To not take any damage from the 3d6 rolling which is 3-18 you need to roll average. Like 3,3,4 or 6,1,3 or 5,4,1, etc even with leadership 10 you need to roll average or below average. I can see you saying only 2d6 it's not a problem, but 3d6 is.

If rolling under 10 on a 3d6 is sooooo easy. Than why people complain about how annoying a certain 15 point piece of gear a Farseer has. All I hear is I can't cast crap or models dying to a 15 piece of wargear. Yet when a doom forces checks within 6" of it it's not bad and easy to make. No it's not.

Than how many races are even leadership 10. The average leadership for most armies with character up grades are usually 9 while you get as low as 2 with some models, but 7 is your typical lowest.

Like I said before we are not throwing in any broodlords lowering leadership at all. 3 well placed brodlords can lower leadership between 1-3.

Yes firedragons can toast a doom, or a devestator squad etc. The problem with your logic is you asumming the nid player has no range attacks, like no 12 shot strength 6 attacks, no 6 strength 8 attacks from hive guard, etc. I guarantee any competant nid player would target such threat squads. Fire dragons in a wave serpent have to disembark to fire at the doom. Once they done so the nid army can open up and kill them now.

Let me put it this way, so you can understand a bit more.

All armies, but daemons and a few other models you can say weapon x can kill model y really easy. Daemons is an exception since they can save against most things in 40k. I can say bolters can easily kill daemonettes for example, that is not true. It is as trueas the dice dictates. Due to rolling the damonettes can easily laugh at bolter shots as it bounces off them, or get slaughtered by the hail of bullets.

Daemons is an example of an army if you roll good it does good. If you roll bad it does bad.

If I have a Tau strength 5 ap 5 weapon I can say I can easily kill gaunts due to wounding on 2s and they can't save unless they get a cover save. Next I have pathfinders which denies cover, so tau can easily kill models with a +5 save. No matter what the nid player does he can't roll to ulter the outcome of them dying. Unless he gives them fnp via endurance or catylist.

ith the doom you have a +3 invulnerable save. Meaning it ain't dying unless the nid player fails it's save. If player x is a bad roller than doom dies easy. If player y is known to roll above average a lot than you can take awhile to kill it.

Everytime I seen the doom used. Majority of the time it makes back it's points and more. Yes I seen it die to a lucky strength 8 hit or scatter off the board. However if I can say 8 out of 10 games it has earned back it's points than bing it's a good model. Hmmm can't do anything against it and get's to nuke surronding models before I can actually do anything, and shoot a pie plate as well. The doom.

It's almost like saying runes of witnessing isn't broken, or Jaws of the warp wolf, or a vindicator turbo round vs vehicles, or half the Necron book, man the Necrons.

grey Knights are not broken due to the really high cost of what they put out. Even cortez razorback spam is not broken. However my question to all marine players is this, or questions.

1. Can marines take assault cannons with infantry or assault marines
2. Assault Cannon= 30-40 points, Psycannon only 10 points
3. Can marines even take 2-4 assault cannons in their squads
4. Wait psycannons or strength 7 not 6
5. Assault cannons are heavy always while psycannons can be assault 2, so you can assault with a heavy weapon.

Now I think a weapon that is 1/3 the cost of what other marines pay for a similiar type of weapon is broken with the added bonus of higher strength, squads can have it, and giving it an assault option.

I put the doom in the broken category due to it's cheap and can aura effect twice. It's a distraction which allows tervigons, trygons, and tyrants to go unmolested due to the non nid playes using possible anti monster weapons to kill a doom.


Yes, I do. I've used Abaddon, Typhus, Ahriman, Lucius, Asdrubael Vect, Lady Malys, the Doom of Malan'tai, Kaldor Draigo, Inquisitor Coteaz and Kairos Fateweaver.
I have played against countless more.
I find their inclusion into the game to be very fun and fluffy, though they are not always "balanced" - though the same can be said of many generic characters.

Lately, I've been trying out a themed Thousand Sons list with Ahriman at 1500 points. Ahriman joins eight Terminators (nine strong unit) backed by two nine-strong Thousand Sons units and eighteen Cultists (because of the minimum ten in a unit). Because of their similarity to the old Tzeentch Epic scale flyers, and that they have AP3 weapons, I also have a pair of Heldrakes. It is a shoddy army list that works because Ahriman is so darn useful with his Infiltrate - and his psychic powers do make a big difference provided you don't roll badly - and the Heldrakes are just too darn difficult to deal with (which I don't like, so I may switch them out if I can find something that works for theme purposes). In a recent game against a Tau tournament player, I managed a draw in the face of overwhelming odds simply because my army is so darn good at removing enemy scoring units if they aren't either in hordes or in transports. I can't deal with any kind of vehicle at long range though, but eh.
So, long story short, I am really starting to appreciate Ahriman's abilities, though I am lucky that I have yet to roll a Perils of the Warp!

On the Doom, it is so darn good because it is incredibly inexpensive for what it does. Taking it in a 1500 point list doesn't eat up as much of your points as you might think (though admittedly much of the Tyranid army is over-costed), and it has the potential to win games on its own (I've watched it do so several times). It isn't broken because it can be dealt with quite easily provided you know the appropriate way to attack it, though it depends on the opponent. Some seem to forget that it also has a nasty pie plate attack, though with Deny the Witch and scatter, it isn't amazing. If your opponent fails to kill it with any Strength eight or higher weapons when it drops, it can make its points back doubly in record time. That, and it scares the pants off of a lot of players. For those reasons alone, and how cheap it is, I think it is worth taking every time.

I agree, but if it was properly costed than it would be a good model. The fact that it tends to do as much as it does for so little is why I define it broken instead of good. Let's put it this way. What other model in the game can deal as much damage as the doom at it's cost.


No, but you did imply that you're smarter than everyone else. My point is, try not to sound condescending and people might actually listen to you.

Good words to live by. That is what I call, calling the kettle black. You should live by your own words. Name calling makes you look like your're a 9 year old trying to get a point across.



CSM Daemon Prince, no Warpstorm Table, and closer to 300pts. And I'm sure that there are armies out there that can easily deal with a T9 FMC with 2+ cover, reroll 1's to save, FNP, It Will Not Die, Eternal Warrior, etc, though I can't think of many, but remember that it's pretty unlikely to even get that combination of powers in the first place. My point, which you missed, was to present an example of something that was genuinely potentially game-breaking, because most armies in the game can't deal with that other than to just try and avoid it.

Also, grammar again. Half those sentences are gibberish. I don't want to be a grammar ****, but I also like to be able to understand what other people are trying to say.


Oh you mean the Space Marine Prince. Not that their is another codex with a daemon prince in it. +1 toughness on the boon table really. That makes getting all that highly unlikely. Instead of almost 400 points it's still over 300 points and close to 350, lol, that lol was for you lol( lol). Anyway it's still not hard to deal with. The doom is more troublesome for 1/3 the cost. The doom can actually kill that prince in combat is kinda funny. Yes the only chance the prince has is to smash. If it didn't smash the doom would win everytime and what that tells you about the doom.


[QUOTE=DarkLink;308695]


And this is a big deal because? I've based my statements on the assumption that you can drop in and hit 3-4 units in one go, though your opponent should be smart enough to spread out a little bit more than that. It depends on what army he plays.



The Doom shouldn't live to do either, but, yes, the blast is nice.

BTW, what's with the random lol's?


Lol. Why not. Lol. Yes you can spread out which is fine, by doing so it's easier to isolate sections of your army with less components able to aid one another. The Doom is impacting your deployment decision making from the start of the game.

In most games the doom can get of the double aura effect and fire it's blast template, before you can do anything to it. Unless you have interceptor you really can't stop the Doom from doing that. If you move I know majority of the armies have some sort of heavy weapon in the squads,etc. Also the Doom player controls where he is dropping the Doom. Meaning he is not going to drop it near a bunch of melta gunners for example.



It's all situational [QUOTE]

Yes it is! Bingo! Hit the Nail in the right place! I ca say I totally agree to that. In some situations the Doom can cause porblems and in some it can be dealt with. It's broken due to what it does. If it's just a good model I wouldn't have to move my models around and focus what I have to make sure I kill it. It's like the bloodthirster if you ignore it you can lose chunks of your army. If you focus kill it that takes fire away from other threats. Hounds and a Thirster is a distaction for other units. However those units tend to hit 3x as much as the Doom. The fact the Doom can cause a player to focus it and the fact it cost so little puts it above from being a good model. In a game where you can roll 8 one, anything is killable even if it is broken

Also keep in mind that it's not the only model ds or breathing down your throat.


[QUOTE=DarkLink;308695]
And there's with the attitude again. Seriously, I don't care how big your **** is.


And again with your attitude!



No. And, again, what's with the random lols? Are you, like, 12? And female? And a time traveler visiting from about ten years in the past?

[QUOTE]

And this is not a troll statement. I troll back and call you a 8 year old. Lol.
[QUOTE=DarkLink;308695]
So your qualification for being broken is 1) makes its points back, and 2) pisses other people off? You must think half the units in the game are broken.




No. Just cheap costing models that can easily get their points back without you being able to do anything to stop it. Although I do think some Necron stuff is broken. Other than that the Vindicare assassin is very close to broken since he can take out vehicles really easy.




Besides, why do you assume I'm upset? In particular, why do you assume that I'm upset because the Doom is so good? Or is that just your poor writing again, because while you said the latter I'm pretty sure that you didn't intend to mean that I'm upset about the Doom specifically, rather that other people get upset facing the Doom, and that I'm just upset, well, just because. Could you rephrase that, for clarity's sake?

[QUOTE=DarkLink]

I don't know why I think that. I think I quoted you enough to convey the moments when you seemed upset. Typically name calling is done when some one is upset. My 8 year old does it when he doesn't get his way

[QUOTE=DarkLink;308695] Didn't you just falsely accuse me of name-calling? There's a word for that, which daboarder already brought up. I never called you any names until this post, in which I pointed out some trollish behavior. Yet you've called me a brat. Very mature of you.


Hmmm and who called who brat first. I just used the words I was called. I'm not even really being creative since I am just repeating what you two are saying. Amazing you think I started calling people brat lol. My bad you two didn't do any name calling at all. You cought me red handed. I'm guilty. The two of you are outstanding posters I strive really hard to be like. One day I'll be like you two. Hello! Bols community. I have lied and said these two outstanding individuals are name callers. I even said one was trolling. I am scum and not worthy. Yes. They are right I am wrong. Man their insight is litterly mind



I never said anything about that. Don't put words in my mouth. What I do find odd, though, is that you agree here thatthe Doom can be 'handled', yet you seem so adamant that it's broken.
[QUOTE]

Nah I can quote away instead of doing that. So it can be handled, doesn't mean it's not broken.

[QUOTE=DarkLink;308695]
Why are we still talking about Fire Dragons
Yes why are we? You must really like them. Darklink=firedragons


They've only been brought up as they're the Eldar's best source of massed Str 8. I've said a couple of times now that Eldar are old and outdated, so the fact that they can be countered isn't really relevant. Saying the Doom is broken because it can presumably beat up Eldar is like saying someone's a good fighter because they can beat up a little kid.




Opinions should be backed up by arguments. Your argument seems to amount to 'teh Doom is awesome', and you've ignored everyone else's arguments except to take potshots at our competence at 40k and to nit-pick examples that are either irrelevant or out of context. But I guess you've claimed you've won, so I guess you win the internets.

[QUOTE]

Nope! You ignore my points and talk down to me lol. Want me to sing it in nursery ryme so you can understand. " The D-o-O-M falls from they sky!" " Big head meany falls from the sky!" Lalalalala. " Nothing stops it from nuking your mind." "Nuke!Nuke!Nuke!" " Nuking the mind!" " la!la!la!la!" Is that better. You can sing along after nap time.
[QUOTE=DarkLink;308695]

Again with the hypocrisy?

[QUOTE=chicop76;308676]Let me put it so you can understand better. When I said they rarely seen the light of day. I meant they are usually targeted and die before they can do anything. Not that no one uses them. Hope you understand a bit better now.

Again with the condescending attitude? What are you, 12?



Ummm...? Did you mean 'never said anything'? Use your words, dude. They make you take english classes in school for a reason.


Trolling are we. Nevermind me so sorry. You be no troll in here!






Huh, one of your posts must have gotten deleted. Would you be so kind as to repost what you said to address your argument?




Actually, there are at least 8 separate units that I can think of off the top of my head, not counting Tau and Fire Dragons, that can get large quantities of melta. Besides, didn't you say earlier that Fire Dragons would never be able to kill the Doom because they're so easy to kill themselves that they'll never actually get a chance to shoot unless you let them?




? Really? Space Wolves, maybe, but even now in 6th they're a lot less common than in 5th. But other than Long Fangs, I don't know if Devestators have ever been spammed by actual, competitive armies.



Umm... no, that's not what it means. You fail at statistics.

What that means is that, on average dice, Marines will cause .74 ID wounds on the Doom. So there's about a 40% chance they'll kill the Doom. I don't feel like doing the math to get the exact percentage, binomial probability is kind of a pain.

Anyways, sure, Devestators aren't the greatest. If all you've got is one single unit of Devestators, then you've got problems.

Besides, if you're assuming Devestators specifically, then you should take into account the Signum for some BS 5, and Null Zone for reroll invulnerable saves. That bumps you up to 1.31 wounds on average, so more than 50% of the time you'll kill the Doom.



6 Long Fangs with 5 MLs is, what, ~150pts? Cheaper than the Doom. And there should be several of them. Comparisons like this in a vaccum amount to little more than strawmen arguments.

[Learn2Eel]

I agree, but if it was properly costed than it would be a good model. The fact that it tends to do as much as it does for so little is why I define it broken instead of good. Let's put it this way. What other model in the game can deal as much damage as the doom at it's cost.

None, at least, not semi-regularly like the Doom can. I still don't think it is "broken" though.

[DarkLink]

It's broken due to it"s double aura effect

No it's not. And what do you mean double aura? You mean that it happens in both shooting phases? Just move outside of 6" and it won't get anything in your turn. Rocket science, I know, but turns out that works pretty well.



To not take any damage from the 3d6 rolling which is 3-18 you need to roll average. Like 3,3,4 or 6,1,3 or 5,4,1, etc even with leadership 10 you need to roll average or below average. I can see you saying only 2d6 it's not a problem, but 3d6 is.

Oh, hey, almost half the time the Doom does nothing, and even when it does something it's still only a 6" range and odds are it's only 2-3 wounds. Yeah, that's totally broken. I don't see how anyone could possibly survive one round of that hitting 2, maybe 3 units.



If rolling under 10 on a 3d6 is sooooo easy. Than why people complain about how annoying a certain 15 point piece of gear a Farseer has. All I hear is I can't cast crap or models dying to a 15 piece of wargear. Yet when a doom forces checks within 6" of it it's not bad and easy to make. No it's not.

Red herring. Runes of Warding is quite irrelevant. Runes has a greater than 50% chance of completely negating the only thing that makes most Librarians type HQs useful, anywhere on the board, for 15pts that you can hide in a transport. Doom has an extremely short range, is highly exposed, and has a solid chance of not doing anything except make opponents like you panic. The fact that both rely on 3d6 ld tests is about the only thing that's similar between the two.



Than how many races are even leadership 10. The average leadership for most armies with character up grades are usually 9 while you get as low as 2 with some models, but 7 is your typical lowest.

Most armies are Ld 8 or 9, and most of the Ld 8 armies have lots of cheap troops so they don't care that much if they lose a couple guys.



Yes firedragons can toast a doom, or a devestator squad etc. The problem with your logic is you asumming the nid player has no range attacks, like no 12 shot strength 6 attacks, no 6 strength 8 attacks from hive guard, etc. I guarantee any competant nid player would target such threat squads. Fire dragons in a wave serpent have to disembark to fire at the doom. Once they done so the nid army can open up and kill them now.

Did you really misunderstand or misrepresent my statement such that you actually thought I claimed that Fire Dragons instantly negated the Doom? I've said like four times that the Doom is good, just not broken. Fire Dragons came up because they're one of the only ways for Eldar, a very old and outdated codex, to reliably kill the Doom, but keep in mind that mech Eldar could also just fly away outside of its range until they had a chance to effectively deal with it, or hit it with their str 6 spam and force saves and kill it.



Let me put it this way, so you can understand a bit more.

I'm glad you think everyone who disagrees with you is stupid. I'm sure you'll make a lot of friends that way.



All armies, but daemons and a few other models you can say weapon x can kill model y really easy. Daemons is an exception since they can save against most things in 40k. I can say bolters can easily kill daemonettes for example, that is not true. It is as trueas the dice dictates. Due to rolling the damonettes can easily laugh at bolter shots as it bounces off them, or get slaughtered by the hail of bullets.

Daemons is an example of an army if you roll good it does good. If you roll bad it does bad.

If I have a Tau strength 5 ap 5 weapon I can say I can easily kill gaunts due to wounding on 2s and they can't save unless they get a cover save. Next I have pathfinders which denies cover, so tau can easily kill models with a +5 save. No matter what the nid player does he can't roll to ulter the outcome of them dying. Unless he gives them fnp via endurance or catylist.

Not entirely sure what you're rambling about, but whatever.




ith the doom you have a +3 invulnerable save. Meaning it ain't dying unless the nid player fails it's save. If player x is a bad roller than doom dies easy. If player y is known to roll above average a lot than you can take awhile to kill it.

Huh, I never would have guessed that if my opponent rolled really well, I might have trouble beating him. Guess what. "My opponent rolled really well" does not make whatever unit(s) he took broken. It just means he rolled really well. You can win with terrible armies if you get lucky enough, and that certainly doesn't make those armies broken.




Everytime I seen the doom used. Majority of the time it makes back it's points and more. Yes I seen it die to a lucky strength 8 hit or scatter off the board. However if I can say 8 out of 10 games it has earned back it's points than bing it's a good model. Hmmm can't do anything against it and get's to nuke surronding models before I can actually do anything, and shoot a pie plate as well. The doom.

Nidz deserve a few good units. Certainly doesn't make it broken.




It's almost like saying runes of witnessing isn't broken, or Jaws of the warp wolf, or a vindicator turbo round vs vehicles, or half the Necron book, man the Necrons.

grey Knights are not broken due to the really high cost of what they put out. Even cortez razorback spam is not broken. However my question to all marine players is this, or questions.

1. Can marines take assault cannons with infantry or assault marines
2. Assault Cannon= 30-40 points, Psycannon only 10 points
3. Can marines even take 2-4 assault cannons in their squads
4. Wait psycannons or strength 7 not 6
5. Assault cannons are heavy always while psycannons can be assault 2, so you can assault with a heavy weapon.

Now I think a weapon that is 1/3 the cost of what other marines pay for a similiar type of weapon is broken with the added bonus of higher strength, squads can have it, and giving it an assault option.

I put the doom in the broken category due to it's cheap and can aura effect twice. It's a distraction which allows tervigons, trygons, and tyrants to go unmolested due to the non nid playes using possible anti monster weapons to kill a doom.


Would you like some cheese with that whine?

You sound like a guy I played in a team tournament where my partner had the Doom. It dropped in and killed a few guys, and they freaked out and stopped playing smart and lost. Then they whined about us taking special character, even though the Doom only actually killed like five Fire Warriors and a couple of Drones.

When something is broken, that means it's extremely difficult to deal with effectively. A Flying Daemon Prince with Mark of Tzeentch Iron Arm, Endurance, and Invisibility can potentially get to T9 (+1T chaos gift) with a 2+ cover save, reroll 1's to save, with It Will Not Die, Eternal Warrior, Feel No Pain, and WS1 againt it in assault. That's kind of broken, if your opponent manages to get lucky enough to get all of those psychic powers. Only Eldar and Space Wolves can really handle that by blocking the psychic powers, but everyone else has to pray that it fails all its Grounding checks, its 5++ with reroll 1's, 5+ FNP, and never makes It Will Not Die.

There are plenty of means of dealing with the Doom. Grey Knights and Tau, both common armies now that everyone's on the Tau bandwagon, can handle Deepstrikers pretty well. All armies have access to fortifications with Interceptor, giving you some more chances to kill it. SMs have Null Zone to make it reroll those Invulnerable saves, and can hide in transports to keep safe. Orks can bury it in attacks, and who cares if they lose a couple Boys. Guard can bury it in lasgun shots, and just like Orks who cares if you lose a few guardsmen. Dark Eldar excel at killing infantry, and have str 8 weapons to spare. Necrons have their own tools to deal with it.

So while the Doom is a good unit, pretty much every army in the game has at least one way of killing the Doom. That immediately removes it from the "broken" category.


By the way, you might want to use a browser with spellcheck. And work on the difference between 'it's' and 'its'. Grammar, too. Just saying.

[chicop76]

No it's not. And what do you mean double aura? You mean that it happens in both shooting phases? Just move outside of 6" and it won't get anything in your turn. Rocket science, I know, but turns out that works pretty well.



Oh, hey, almost half the time the Doom does nothing, and even when it does something it's still only a 6" range and odds are it's only 2-3 wounds. Yeah, that's totally broken. I don't see how anyone could possibly survive one round of that hitting 2, maybe 3 units.



Red herring. Runes of Warding is quite irrelevant. Runes has a greater than 50% chance of completely negating the only thing that makes most Librarians type HQs useful, anywhere on the board, for 15pts that you can hide in a transport. Doom has an extremely short range, is highly exposed, and has a solid chance of not doing anything except make opponents like you panic. The fact that both rely on 3d6 ld tests is about the only thing that's similar between the two.



Most armies are Ld 8 or 9, and most of the Ld 8 armies have lots of cheap troops so they don't care that much if they lose a couple guys.



Did you really misunderstand or misrepresent my statement such that you actually thought I claimed that Fire Dragons instantly negated the Doom? I've said like four times that the Doom is good, just not broken. Fire Dragons came up because they're one of the only ways for Eldar, a very old and outdated codex, to reliably kill the Doom, but keep in mind that mech Eldar could also just fly away outside of its range until they had a chance to effectively deal with it, or hit it with their str 6 spam and force saves and kill it.



I'm glad you think everyone who disagrees with you is stupid. I'm sure you'll make a lot of friends that way.



Not entirely sure what you're rambling about, but whatever.




Huh, I never would have guessed that if my opponent rolled really well, I might have trouble beating him. Guess what. "My opponent rolled really well" does not make whatever unit(s) he took broken. It just means he rolled really well. You can win with terrible armies if you get lucky enough, and that certainly doesn't make those armies broken.




Nidz deserve a few good units. Certainly doesn't make it broken.





Would you like some cheese with that whine?

You sound like a guy I played in a team tournament where my partner had the Doom. It dropped in and killed a few guys, and they freaked out and stopped playing smart and lost. Then they whined about us taking special character, even though the Doom only actually killed like five Fire Warriors and a couple of Drones.

When something is broken, that means it's extremely difficult to deal with effectively. A Flying Daemon Prince with Mark of Tzeentch Iron Arm, Endurance, and Invisibility can potentially get to T9 (+1T chaos gift) with a 2+ cover save, reroll 1's to save, with It Will Not Die, Eternal Warrior, Feel No Pain, and WS1 againt it in assault. That's kind of broken, if your opponent manages to get lucky enough to get all of those psychic powers. Only Eldar and Space Wolves can really handle that by blocking the psychic powers, but everyone else has to pray that it fails all its Grounding checks, its 5++ with reroll 1's, 5+ FNP, and never makes It Will Not Die.

There are plenty of means of dealing with the Doom. Grey Knights and Tau, both common armies now that everyone's on the Tau bandwagon, can handle Deepstrikers pretty well. All armies have access to fortifications with Interceptor, giving you some more chances to kill it. SMs have Null Zone to make it reroll those Invulnerable saves, and can hide in transports to keep safe. Orks can bury it in attacks, and who cares if they lose a couple Boys. Guard can bury it in lasgun shots, and just like Orks who cares if you lose a few guardsmen. Dark Eldar excel at killing infantry, and have str 8 weapons to spare. Necrons have their own tools to deal with it.

So while the Doom is a good unit, pretty much every army in the game has at least one way of killing the Doom. That immediately removes it from the "broken" category.


By the way, you might want to use a browser with spellcheck. And work on the difference between 'it's' and 'its'. Grammar, too. Just saying.

I didn't call anyone stupid. If you think you are it's something you believe. Not going to change your mind on how smart you think you are. I embrace everyone equally.

How is like a 400 point random powered model broken. I easily dealt with that. The differance between the doom and I hope to get iron arm and endurance, feel no pain 4+, with +1 wound and it shall not die. Is one I know exactlly what I am getting and the other can die to a double 1 on the warpstorm table. Heck that 400 point model can die as soon as it hit the shooting phase. Actually The Storm Abates can't really kill it, but Punised by the Gods can. Save me the trouble with dealing with it if it is punished by the gods lol.

If you think broken is spending about 1/4 of your army cost into one model that if you roll real lucky get all the things you said it's getting. It more than likely die to a 3 on the war storm table before you get all of that wishing.

Back to reality with the broken low costed doom which can be used even in a 500 point game.

1. You can control somewhat wher you land. That is something you are over looking. Even if you drift on an average of 7" the po size and the 6" disembark can put you on average where you want. Not even throwing in you hit on target 1/3 of the time. Meaning most of the time you can place the Doom where ever you like.

2. Keeping in mind the fact the doom gets a large blast and a 6" aura attack you are taking some loses. In a pinch instead of shooting you can decided to run for more disruption. Lol.

3. So you saying you will move your heavy weapon squads out of the 6" and now can only snap fire. Brillant! I caused you to take a disadvantage due to a cheap model. Also keep in mind in some cases you simply can't move out of the area effect. Either you moving up towards my nids, bunching up closer together for some biovore love. Moving out of the way of the doom actually helps the nid player lol. It's called tactics. If I am forcing you to move in a worst postion to get out of the doom effect awesome.

4. Like I said before I doubt the Doom is the only deep striking model. Keeping that in mind you may be blocked off from even moving out of 6". You can't go off the table to get out of the aura.

Also with your example how are you getting +1 toughness. Just asking. Also invisibility is two charges by the way which leaves one for iron arm or endurance. I seriously doubt you can get all that. Again it's not broken due to dumb luck on a random table and dishing out almost 400 points into a huge point sink.

If you think that Tzeentch Prince is broken than the Doom is beyond broken lol.

When a person decides to use name calling to get his point across. It usually means that you know I am right and is upset that you can't prove otherwise.

For the record. I never said the Doom is unstopable. @Darklink yes there are ways you can handle the Doom, but you are seriously down playing the model. The model works best with other modes supporting it. Again it's low cost is what makes it broken. Anything that can easily earn back it's points and cause good people like Darklink to be upset to me is the definition of a broken model. Not only is it good in game, but also causes meltdows out of game as well.

[daboarder]

For the record. I never said the Doom is unstopable. @Darklink yes there are ways you can handle the Doom, but you are seriously down playing the model. The model works best with other modes supporting it. Again it's low cost is what makes it broken. Anything that can easily earn back it's points and cause good people like Darklink to be upset to me is the definition of a broken model. Not only is it good in game, but also causes meltdows out of game as well.

If you don't think its unstoppable stop acting like a whiny brat.

The DoM is far from broken, he doesn't win games, he occasionally kills a few models if you want to argue that the outlier make the model instead of the averages (and on average the DoM kills a couple of models before it dies to instagib) then anything can be called broken, I mean those Firedragons for instance are just nuts, theres very little way of stopping them flying up in a transport and frying any unit with 10 meltaguns OMG WTF BBQ BROKEN!!!!

[chicop76]

If you don't think its unstoppable stop acting like a whiny brat.

The DoM is far from broken, he doesn't win games, he occasionally kills a few models if you want to argue that the outlier make the model instead of the averages (and on average the DoM kills a couple of models before it dies to instagib) then anything can be called broken, I mean those Firedragons for instance are just nuts, theres very little way of stopping them flying up in a transport and frying any unit with 10 meltaguns OMG WTF BBQ BROKEN!!!!


Only people who are acting like brats are people who do not know how to debate. I never said side a was wrong. I just said why I think Doom is broken. Side A if they choose to insult rather than prove my point is invalid is up to them.

The Doom has won games. Not all of them no, but it has. What makes it annoying is that x unit can be locked in combat with y nid. On top of combat you have to deal with the doom attacking you while you in combat, but not in combat. What other model does that. It can attack you from range while you locked in combat.

The problem I have with the instant kill answer is that you still have to put a decent amout of instant kill shots into it to do so.

If you have a venomthorpe in corner a an I fired a seekermissle or even a few strength 8 or higher shots, than yes a venomthorpe is realatively easy to instantkill. Zonathorpes and The Doom is a bit harder to do so due to a 3+ invulnerable save. Honestly it depends on the board lay out if I decide to instant kill the doom or kill it through mass fire. If I have a few trigons breahing down my neck than I will mass fire the doom. If I have little or no MCs in my face I would try the instant kill.

I think it's funny 2 of you think I do not know how to handle a Doom. What I think is funny is that instant killing is your response. It is not always the case.

FireDragons are so easy to kill it's laughable. Nowadays they rarely see the light of day unless someone don't really know what the do. They are an okay unit, unless they get across the board and are allowed to jump out of a serpant/ falcon and are allowed to melt a tank or MC. I say allowed. I should say with most armies it's allowed. Some armies can't really kill them until they pop out of the serpent or falcon.

Again everyone has opinions. Mine is the doom is broken. If name calling is all you can do to validate that the Doom is not broken than I pretty much have won my arguement since you agree with me, but for whatever reason you want to be differant.

[daboarder]

see I love your hypocrisy its music for my eyes.

I mean you argue that Firedragons are useless and not seen.....when was the last time you saw a T4 3W heavy nid list?

hint: you don't because T4 just isn't hard to gib in an edition where S8 is proliferate.

As I said previously a single devastor squad with standard loadout kills the DoM in a single turn.

Darklink and I have both used averages to support our arguments but clearly your anecdotal evidence is vastly superior.

[chicop76]

see I love your hypocrisy its music for my eyes.

I mean you argue that Firedragons are useless and not seen.....when was the last time you saw a T4 3W heavy nid list?

hint: you don't because T4 just isn't hard to gib in an edition where S8 is proliferate.

As I said previously a single devastor squad with standard loadout kills the DoM in a single turn.

Darklink and I have both used averages to support our arguments but clearly your anecdotal evidence is vastly superior.

Let me put it so you can understand better. When I said they rarely seen the light of day. I meant they are usually targeted and die before they can do anything. Not that no one uses them. Hope you understand a bit better now.

Ok and I said anything about nids running a lot of t4 models. Most of the models I mention for them is t6 to t3. I was using the venomthorpe as an example of how easy to kill a model without a 3+ invulnerable. Although with endurance and how d-grenades turn that cover save to +4 instead of +5 in some cases it might not be a bad ideal to play with venomthorpes now.

I have acknowledge both of your averages. I really hate quoting myself since if you really read what I said I wouldn't have to. To spare me and ***ume that I didn't I will again go over your averages.

Firedragons is a waste of time since more than likely they would instant kill the Doom. It is also the only unit in the game out of 16 armies that can take all melta weapons and can easily number up to 10. Yes I know you can take 7 meltas on O'Shova's bodyguard for 14 melta shots, but fire dragons don't cost 1/4 of your army either.

That being said and addressing more realistic units like devestators since marine players in abundance use this squad. You have 4 missiles. Marines fire at bs 4 which means they hit 2/3 of the time. Which means out of 4 shots they hit 2.66 times. Not 3 since that would be rounding up. They hit 2.66 times. Next you rolling to wound. You can assume 2.66 since you wound on 2s right. You have to take in account that you wound on 2s which means that you would wound the doom 2.22 times with your 4 shots. Throw in that the doom has a +3 invulnerable save against that 2.22 wounds. That means against 4 marines with strength 8 shots that it will fail .74 of the time.

.74 does not = 1. So your 4 missiles on average will not kill the doom. It has a good chance on average. .74 is almost 1 wound enough to kill it. Like I said it is tougher to instant kill than you and darklink making it seem.

[DarkLink]

I didn't call anyone stupid.

No, but you did imply that you're smarter than everyone else. My point is, try not to sound condescending and people might actually listen to you.




How is like a 400 point random powered model broken. I easily dealt with that. The differance between the doom and I hope to get iron arm and endurance, feel no pain 4+, with +1 wound and it shall not die. Is one I know exactlly what I am getting and the other can die to a double 1 on the warpstorm table. Heck that 400 point model can die as soon as it hit the shooting phase. Actually The Storm Abates can't really kill it, but Punised by the Gods can. Save me the trouble with dealing with it if it is punished by the gods lol.

CSM Daemon Prince, no Warpstorm Table, and closer to 300pts. And I'm sure that there are armies out there that can easily deal with a T9 FMC with 2+ cover, reroll 1's to save, FNP, It Will Not Die, Eternal Warrior, etc, though I can't think of many, but remember that it's pretty unlikely to even get that combination of powers in the first place. My point, which you missed, was to present an example of something that was genuinely potentially game-breaking, because most armies in the game can't deal with that other than to just try and avoid it.

Also, grammar again. Half those sentences are gibberish. I don't want to be a grammar ****, but I also like to be able to understand what other people are trying to say.



1. You can control somewhat wher you land. That is something you are over looking. Even if you drift on an average of 7" the po size and the 6" disembark can put you on average where you want. Not even throwing in you hit on target 1/3 of the time. Meaning most of the time you can place the Doom where ever you like.

And this is a big deal because? I've based my statements on the assumption that you can drop in and hit 3-4 units in one go, though your opponent should be smart enough to spread out a little bit more than that. It depends on what army he plays.



2. Keeping in mind the fact the doom gets a large blast and a 6" aura attack you are taking some loses. In a pinch instead of shooting you can decided to run for more disruption. Lol.

The Doom shouldn't live to do either, but, yes, the blast is nice.

BTW, what's with the random lol's?



3. So you saying you will move your heavy weapon squads out of the 6" and now can only snap fire. Brillant! I caused you to take a disadvantage due to a cheap model. Also keep in mind in some cases you simply can't move out of the area effect. Either you moving up towards my nids, bunching up closer together for some biovore love. Moving out of the way of the doom actually helps the nid player lol.

It's all situational, but Space Wolf Long Fangs are the only army that I can think of that this would even be relevant. Maybe Tau Broadsides, too, but they've got Drones as ablative wounds so they can probably take it. Otherwise, everything just walks outside of 6" and opens up with bolters, meltaguns, whatever. If your army can't muster up enough mobile firepower to kill the Doom reliably in one turn without having enough left over to shoot other enemy units, your army sucks. Your strawman argument fails. Though, yes, dropping next to Long Fangs is a good forked attack.



It's called tactics.

And there's with the attitude again. Seriously, I don't care how big your **** is.



4. Like I said before I doubt the Doom is the only deep striking model. Keeping that in mind you may be blocked off from even moving out of 6". You can't go off the table to get out of the aura.

You must play against people who are really bad with deployment and the movement phase in 40k.



Also with your example how are you getting +1 toughness. Just asking. Also invisibility is two charges by the way which leaves one for iron arm or endurance. I seriously doubt you can get all that. Again it's not broken due to dumb luck on a random table and dishing out almost 400 points into a huge point sink.

CSM Chaos Gifts. One of them is +1T. Also, second psyker casts some of the powers. I used the DP as an example because I actually saw this in a game a week or two ago, and it was the closest thing to something that was actually broken that I could think of off the top of my head. You get lucky enough to pull off this particular combo, and the DP can walk through armies on its own.




If you think that Tzeentch Prince is broken than the Doom is beyond broken lol.

No. And, again, what's with the random lols? Are you, like, 12? And female? And a time traveler visiting from about ten years in the past?



When a person decides to use name calling to get his point across. It usually means that you know I am right and is upset that you can't prove otherwise.

And here comes the troll logic.



For the record. I never said the Doom is unstopable. @Darklink yes there are ways you can handle the Doom, but you are seriously down playing the model.

Broken and unstoppable (unstoppable has two P's) are close enough to synonymous in most cases. Alternatively, it might be broken if it drops in and could reliably kill half your army in one go, and then at that point who cares if it lives. Alas, while it can reliably make its points back, that qualifies it as a good unit, not as a broken one. For the Doom to be broken, you have to roll really well, but almost any unit can qualify as broken if you roll well enough. Heck, most armies can kill 2-3 models out of multiple squads in one round of shooting and force morale tests and the each unit could potentially run off the board, if you're lucky enough.

If you're lucky enough.

Just like with the Daemon Prince example, Tzeentch Daemon Princes aren't really broken, unless you're lucky enough to roll up the exact combo of powers and gifts and don't fail your Grounding checks for a turn or two, which is another way to say that you've got to be lucky.

So for the Doom to qualify as broken, you've got to drop in, tag 4 or so units, roll 18's or something for all their leadership tests, then not fail any 3++ saves next turn. That would be broken. Except that requires quite a bit of luck. Ergo, the Doom is very good, but not broken.



The model works best with other modes supporting it. Again it's low cost is what makes it broken. Anything that can easily earn back it's points and cause good people like Darklink to be upset to me is the definition of a broken model. Not only is it good in game, but also causes meltdows out of game as well.

So your qualification for being broken is 1) makes its points back, and 2) pisses other people off? You must think half the units in the game are broken.

Besides, why do you assume I'm upset? In particular, why do you assume that I'm upset because the Doom is so good? Or is that just your poor writing again, because while you said the latter I'm pretty sure that you didn't intend to mean that I'm upset about the Doom specifically, rather that other people get upset facing the Doom, and that I'm just upset, well, just because. Could you rephrase that, for clarity's sake?


Only people who are acting like brats are people who do not know how to debate. I never said side a was wrong. I just said why I think Doom is broken. Side A if they choose to insult rather than prove my point is invalid is up to them.

Didn't you just falsely accuse me of name-calling? There's a word for that, which daboarder already brought up. I never called you any names until this post, in which I pointed out some trollish behavior. Yet you've called me a brat. Very mature of you.



The Doom has won games. Not all of them no, but it has. What makes it annoying is that x unit can be locked in combat with y nid. On top of combat you have to deal with the doom attacking you while you in combat, but not in combat. What other model does that. It can attack you from range while you locked in combat.

A buddy of mine who plays Thousand Sons has had his Helbrute with a lascannon win games for him. Doesn't make it a good unit. When you roll straight 6's with a particular model, that wins games, and it has nothing to do with how powerful the model is.



The problem I have with the instant kill answer is that you still have to put a decent amout of instant kill shots into it to do so.

If you have a venomthorpe in corner a an I fired a seekermissle or even a few strength 8 or higher shots, than yes a venomthorpe is realatively easy to instantkill. Zonathorpes and The Doom is a bit harder to do so due to a 3+ invulnerable save. Honestly it depends on the board lay out if I decide to instant kill the doom or kill it through mass fire. If I have a few trigons breahing down my neck than I will mass fire the doom. If I have little or no MCs in my face I would try the instant kill.

Yeah. With T4 and a 3+ save, invulnerable or not, it's not hard to kill it with just bolters, even if it does pick up some bonus wounds.




I think it's funny 2 of you think I do not know how to handle a Doom. What I think is funny is that instant killing is your response. It is not always the case.

I never said anything about that. Don't put words in my mouth. What I do find odd, though, is that you agree here that the Doom can be 'handled', yet you seem so adamant that it's broken.




FireDragons are so easy to kill it's laughable. Nowadays they rarely see the light of day unless someone don't really know what the do. They are an okay unit, unless they get across the board and are allowed to jump out of a serpant/ falcon and are allowed to melt a tank or MC. I say allowed. I should say with most armies it's allowed. Some armies can't really kill them until they pop out of the serpent or falcon.

Why are we still talking about Fire Dragons? They've only been brought up as they're the Eldar's best source of massed Str 8. I've said a couple of times now that Eldar are old and outdated, so the fact that they can be countered isn't really relevant. Saying the Doom is broken because it can presumably beat up Eldar is like saying someone's a good fighter because they can beat up a little kid.




Again everyone has opinions. Mine is the doom is broken.

Opinions should be backed up by arguments. Your argument seems to amount to 'teh Doom is awesome', and you've ignored everyone else's arguments except to take potshots at our competence at 40k and to nit-pick examples that are either irrelevant or out of context. But I guess you've claimed you've won, so I guess you win the internets.



If name calling is all you can do to validate that the Doom is not broken than I pretty much have won my arguement since you agree with me, but for whatever reason you want to be differant.

Again with the hypocrisy?


Let me put it so you can understand better. When I said they rarely seen the light of day. I meant they are usually targeted and die before they can do anything. Not that no one uses them. Hope you understand a bit better now.

Again with the condescending attitude? What are you, 12?

[QUOTE=chicop76;308676]
Ok and I said anything about nids running a lot of t4 models.

Ummm...? Did you mean 'never said anything'? Use your words, dude. They make you take english classes in school for a reason.



Most of the models I mention for them is t6 to t3. I was using the venomthorpe as an example of how easy to kill a model without a 3+ invulnerable. Although with endurance and how d-grenades turn that cover save to +4 instead of +5 in some cases it might not be a bad ideal to play with venomthorpes now.




I have acknowledge both of your averages. I really hate quoting myself since if you really read what I said I wouldn't have to. To spare me and ***ume that I didn't I will again go over your averages.

Huh, one of your posts must have gotten deleted. Would you be so kind as to repost what you said to address your argument?




Firedragons is a waste of time since more than likely they would instant kill the Doom. It is also the only unit in the game out of 16 armies that can take all melta weapons and can easily number up to 10. Yes I know you can take 7 meltas on O'Shova's bodyguard for 14 melta shots, but fire dragons don't cost 1/4 of your army either.

Actually, there are at least 8 separate units that I can think of off the top of my head, not counting Tau and Fire Dragons, that can get large quantities of melta. Besides, didn't you say earlier that Fire Dragons would never be able to kill the Doom because they're so easy to kill themselves that they'll never actually get a chance to shoot unless you let them?




That being said and addressing more realistic units like devestators since marine players in abundance use this squad.

? Really? Space Wolves, maybe, but even now in 6th they're a lot less common than in 5th. But other than Long Fangs, I don't know if Devestators have ever been spammed by actual, competitive armies.



That means against 4 marines with strength 8 shots that it will fail .74 of the time.

Umm... no, that's not what it means. You fail at statistics.

What that means is that, on average dice, Marines will cause .74 ID wounds on the Doom. So there's about a 40% chance they'll kill the Doom. I don't feel like doing the math to get the exact percentage, binomial probability is kind of a pain.

Anyways, sure, Devestators aren't the greatest. If all you've got is one single unit of Devestators, then you've got problems.

Besides, if you're assuming Devestators specifically, then you should take into account the Signum for some BS 5, and Null Zone for reroll invulnerable saves. That bumps you up to 1.31 wounds on average, so more than 50% of the time you'll kill the Doom.



.74 does not = 1. So your 4 missiles on average will not kill the doom. It has a good chance on average. .74 is almost 1 wound enough to kill it. Like I said it is tougher to instant kill than you and darklink making it seem.

6 Long Fangs with 5 MLs is, what, ~150pts? Cheaper than the Doom. And there should be several of them. Comparisons like this in a vaccum amount to little more than strawmen arguments.

[OrksOrksOrks]

I have been warned about trolling and using personal attacks, yet I've chosen to ignore those warnings. My account is now under a 7 day ban :(

[chicop76]

. And you're over-exaggerating the lethality of the Doom. It's a leadership test on 3d6. That's maybe 2-3 models a squad, with only a 6" range. Interceptor if possible, and it won't even get that. Move outside of 6" and it'll have to chase you, and it shouldn't live through your shooting phase. It's possible for it to kill a lot of stuff, if you roll really, really high on the leadership tests, but it's not that scary nor even that hard to kill.


1 dev squad = dead DoM.


Just...I dunno if you don't get that 2 S8 weapons have a good chance of killing the DoM....

look it doesn't "suck up firepower", Nor does it act as "a uge distraction" if your opponent is reacting appropriately it should take 3 S8 shots to the face and be statistically dead.

The DoM live on the outliers, some games it will be fantastic and eeat whole armies, other games it will die to a powerfist/meltagun without killing a single model. Its also worth noting that as people llearn more the death by S8 is more and more likely.

Here I am gussing 3 strength 8 hit's maybe two. The Doom is not that easy for you to kill.


1 dev squad = dead DoM


This is where the dev squad comes from. You ask why I bring it up.


DoM is not that difficult for most armies to deal with if you have a halfway decent list and are a halfway decent player. It's pretty good and certainly annoying, but it's far from overpowered.

Here is where you started the so called tone. In other words if you know how to play 40k the doom is nothing, and if you're a bad player it destroys. If that was the case why tournament playing nid list bother to add them. If I go against a decent player why field it right. I guess this is a ploy to get people to leave it at home, due to you not wanting to go against it.



Eldar are a poor comparison anyways, they don't get much str 8 because of how outdated their codex is. Just because a weak, outdated army might have a tough time dealing with it doesn't make it broken or OP.

I never brought up Eldar as the only army to deal with the Doom. For some reason you keep bringing up Eldar. Also you're under-exaggerating the lethality of the Doom. Will you roll 18's for leadership. No, but 11 and 12 is common enough. 9-10 is average enough. You can't alwas roll average or below average depending on how many models is within range.

if you spread your army out to not get nuked by the doom. Than you are making it easier for the nid army to advance with less concentrated shots heading toward them. Sigh poor darklink. You must play a lot of new players. I pity that you don't play many advanced players often.


1 dev squad = dead DoM.

most people complain about SC because they change the game dynamics, forcing people to think differently. As such they are necessary to keep the game fresh and variable otherwise it would stagnate.


What Eldar army doesn't have Fire Dragons? Seriously, they're one of the only good units in the whole book. And citing a game where the dice were clearly in your favor isn't much of an argument. Nor did I say that the Doom is only useful against Noobs.

The Doom is good. But there are plenty of ways to deal with him, so he's not broken.

Again you bring up Fire Dragons.






Oh, hey, almost half the time the Doom does nothing, and even when it does something it's still only a 6" range and odds are it's only 2-3 wounds. Yeah, that's totally broken. I don't see how anyone could possibly survive one round of that hitting 2, maybe 3 units.

Red herring. Runes of Warding is quite irrelevant. Runes has a greater than 50% chance of completely negating the only thing that makes most Librarians type HQs useful, anywhere on the board, for 15pts that you can hide in a transport. Doom has an extremely short range, is highly exposed, and has a solid chance of not doing anything except make opponents like you panic. The fact that both rely on 3d6 ld tests is about the only thing that's similar between the two.



Did you really misunderstand or misrepresent my statement such that you actually thought I claimed that Fire Dragons instantly negated the Doom? I've said like four times that the Doom is good, just not broken. Fire Dragons came up because they're one of the only ways for Eldar, a very old and outdated codex, to reliably kill the Doom, but keep in mind that mech Eldar could also just fly away outside of its range until they had a chance to effectively deal with it, or hit it with their str 6 spam and force saves and kill it.



I'm glad you think everyone who disagrees with you is stupid. I'm sure you'll make a lot of friends that way.



Not entirely sure what you're rambling about, but whatever




Would you like some cheese with that whine?

By the way, you might want to use a browser with spellcheck. And work on the difference between 'it's' and 'its'. Grammar, too. Just saying.

This is where your jabs and attacks are quite obvious. Instead of really vallidating your view, you decide to insult and heaven help me if I can't agree with you. Honestly that mentality only works to disagree with you more.


Anyway I brought up the Eldar gear to make a point. When it's the runes you said it works more than 50% of the time, and against the Doom you said it barely works. Make up your mind. Both abilities are 3d6 vs leadership. If runes of witnessing go off more than 50% of the time, than the same applies to the dooms abiity going off 50% of the time. Hince why I am comparing the two.

What about those FireDragons.




If you don't think its unstoppable stop acting like a whiny brat

.Wow. Like I said I didn't start with the name calling. Everything is stopable. The problem is you can't make an army that can stop everything.

It's broken due to it"s double aura effect, and it's firing before most armies could do anything about it. The nid drop pod as long you make sure you're 12" away from the board edge you can land just fine. Once you disembark 6" you can easily correct your ds mistake.

Tau and Grey Knights is the only armies to kill the doom before it's effects go off. Than again it's only realistic that Tau would kill it before it does anything, so Tau is the only army to kill it, but that calls for 3 twin rail guns, instead of those high yield missle pods. Meaning even against Tau it is likely to come out alive with the lost of a few wounds.

To not take any damage from the 3d6 rolling which is 3-18 you need to roll average. Like 3,3,4 or 6,1,3 or 5,4,1, etc even with leadership 10 you need to roll average or below average. I can see you saying only 2d6 it's not a problem, but 3d6 is.

If rolling under 10 on a 3d6 is sooooo easy. Than why people complain about how annoying a certain 15 point piece of gear a Farseer has. All I hear is I can't cast crap or models dying to a 15 piece of wargear. Yet when a doom forces checks within 6" of it it's not bad and easy to make. No it's not.

Than how many races are even leadership 10. The average leadership for most armies with character up grades are usually 9 while you get as low as 2 with some models, but 7 is your typical lowest.

Like I said before we are not throwing in any broodlords lowering leadership at all. 3 well placed brodlords can lower leadership between 1-3.

Yes firedragons can toast a doom, or a devestator squad etc. The problem with your logic is you asumming the nid player has no range attacks, like no 12 shot strength 6 attacks, no 6 strength 8 attacks from hive guard, etc. I guarantee any competant nid player would target such threat squads. Fire dragons in a wave serpent have to disembark to fire at the doom. Once they done so the nid army can open up and kill them now.

Let me put it this way, so you can understand a bit more.

All armies, but daemons and a few other models you can say weapon x can kill model y really easy. Daemons is an exception since they can save against most things in 40k. I can say bolters can easily kill daemonettes for example, that is not true. It is as trueas the dice dictates. Due to rolling the damonettes can easily laugh at bolter shots as it bounces off them, or get slaughtered by the hail of bullets.

Daemons is an example of an army if you roll good it does good. If you roll bad it does bad.

If I have a Tau strength 5 ap 5 weapon I can say I can easily kill gaunts due to wounding on 2s and they can't save unless they get a cover save. Next I have pathfinders which denies cover, so tau can easily kill models with a +5 save. No matter what the nid player does he can't roll to ulter the outcome of them dying. Unless he gives them fnp via endurance or catylist.

ith the doom you have a +3 invulnerable save. Meaning it ain't dying unless the nid player fails it's save. If player x is a bad roller than doom dies easy. If player y is known to roll above average a lot than you can take awhile to kill it.

Everytime I seen the doom used. Majority of the time it makes back it's points and more. Yes I seen it die to a lucky strength 8 hit or scatter off the board. However if I can say 8 out of 10 games it has earned back it's points than bing it's a good model. Hmmm can't do anything against it and get's to nuke surronding models before I can actually do anything, and shoot a pie plate as well. The doom.

It's almost like saying runes of witnessing isn't broken, or Jaws of the warp wolf, or a vindicator turbo round vs vehicles, or half the Necron book, man the Necrons.

grey Knights are not broken due to the really high cost of what they put out. Even cortez razorback spam is not broken. However my question to all marine players is this, or questions.

1. Can marines take assault cannons with infantry or assault marines
2. Assault Cannon= 30-40 points, Psycannon only 10 points
3. Can marines even take 2-4 assault cannons in their squads
4. Wait psycannons or strength 7 not 6
5. Assault cannons are heavy always while psycannons can be assault 2, so you can assault with a heavy weapon.

Now I think a weapon that is 1/3 the cost of what other marines pay for a similiar type of weapon is broken with the added bonus of higher strength, squads can have it, and giving it an assault option.

I put the doom in the broken category due to it's cheap and can aura effect twice. It's a distraction which allows tervigons, trygons, and tyrants to go unmolested due to the non nid playes using possible anti monster weapons to kill a doom.


Yes, I do. I've used Abaddon, Typhus, Ahriman, Lucius, Asdrubael Vect, Lady Malys, the Doom of Malan'tai, Kaldor Draigo, Inquisitor Coteaz and Kairos Fateweaver.
I have played against countless more.
I find their inclusion into the game to be very fun and fluffy, though they are not always "balanced" - though the same can be said of many generic characters.

Lately, I've been trying out a themed Thousand Sons list with Ahriman at 1500 points. Ahriman joins eight Terminators (nine strong unit) backed by two nine-strong Thousand Sons units and eighteen Cultists (because of the minimum ten in a unit). Because of their similarity to the old Tzeentch Epic scale flyers, and that they have AP3 weapons, I also have a pair of Heldrakes. It is a shoddy army list that works because Ahriman is so darn useful with his Infiltrate - and his psychic powers do make a big difference provided you don't roll badly - and the Heldrakes are just too darn difficult to deal with (which I don't like, so I may switch them out if I can find something that works for theme purposes). In a recent game against a Tau tournament player, I managed a draw in the face of overwhelming odds simply because my army is so darn good at removing enemy scoring units if they aren't either in hordes or in transports. I can't deal with any kind of vehicle at long range though, but eh.
So, long story short, I am really starting to appreciate Ahriman's abilities, though I am lucky that I have yet to roll a Perils of the Warp!

On the Doom, it is so darn good because it is incredibly inexpensive for what it does. Taking it in a 1500 point list doesn't eat up as much of your points as you might think (though admittedly much of the Tyranid army is over-costed), and it has the potential to win games on its own (I've watched it do so several times). It isn't broken because it can be dealt with quite easily provided you know the appropriate way to attack it, though it depends on the opponent. Some seem to forget that it also has a nasty pie plate attack, though with Deny the Witch and scatter, it isn't amazing. If your opponent fails to kill it with any Strength eight or higher weapons when it drops, it can make its points back doubly in record time. That, and it scares the pants off of a lot of players. For those reasons alone, and how cheap it is, I think it is worth taking every time.

I agree, but if it was properly costed than it would be a good model. The fact that it tends to do as much as it does for so little is why I define it broken instead of good. Let's put it this way. What other model in the game can deal as much damage as the doom at it's cost.


No, but you did imply that you're smarter than everyone else. My point is, try not to sound condescending and people might actually listen to you.

Good words to live by. That is what I call, calling the kettle black. You should live by your own words. Name calling makes you look like your're a 9 year old trying to get a point across.



CSM Daemon Prince, no Warpstorm Table, and closer to 300pts. And I'm sure that there are armies out there that can easily deal with a T9 FMC with 2+ cover, reroll 1's to save, FNP, It Will Not Die, Eternal Warrior, etc, though I can't think of many, but remember that it's pretty unlikely to even get that combination of powers in the first place. My point, which you missed, was to present an example of something that was genuinely potentially game-breaking, because most armies in the game can't deal with that other than to just try and avoid it.

Also, grammar again. Half those sentences are gibberish. I don't want to be a grammar ****, but I also like to be able to understand what other people are trying to say. .



Oh you mean the Space Marine Prince. Not that their is another codex with a daemon prince in it. +1 toughness on the boon table really. That makes getting all that highly unlikely. Instead of almost 400 points it's still over 300 points and close to 350, lol, that lol was for you lol( lol). Anyway it's still not hard to deal with. The doom is more troublesome for 1/3 the cost. The doom can actually kill that prince in combat is kinda funny. Yes the only chance the prince has is to smash. If it didn't smash the doom would win everytime and what that tells you about the doom.






And this is a big deal because? I've based my statements on the assumption that you can drop in and hit 3-4 units in one go, though your opponent should be smart enough to spread out a little bit more than that. It depends on what army he plays.



The Doom shouldn't live to do either, but, yes, the blast is nice.

BTW, what's with the random lol's?
.


Lol. Why not. Lol. Yes you can spread out which is fine, by doing so it's easier to isolate sections of your army with less components able to aid one another. The Doom is impacting your deployment decision making from the start of the game.

In most games the doom can get of the double aura effect and fire it's blast template, before you can do anything to it. Unless you have interceptor you really can't stop the Doom from doing that. If you move I know majority of the armies have some sort of heavy weapon in the squads,etc. Also the Doom player controls where he is dropping the Doom. Meaning he is not going to drop it near a bunch of melta gunners for example.



It's all situational .


Yes it is! Bingo! Hit the Nail in the right place! I ca say I totally agree to that. In some situations the Doom can cause porblems and in some it can be dealt with. It's broken due to what it does. If it's just a good model I wouldn't have to move my models around and focus what I have to make sure I kill it. It's like the bloodthirster if you ignore it you can lose chunks of your army. If you focus kill it that takes fire away from other threats. Hounds and a Thirster is a distaction for other units. However those units tend to hit 3x as much as the Doom. The fact the Doom can cause a player to focus it and the fact it cost so little puts it above from being a good model. In a game where you can roll 8 one, anything is killable even if it is broken

Also keep in mind that it's not the only model ds or breathing down your throat.




And there's with the attitude again. Seriously, I don't care how big your **** is.
.


And again with your attitude!



No. And, again, what's with the random lols? Are you, like, 12? And female? And a time traveler visiting from about ten years in the past?

.


And this is not a troll statement. I troll back and call you a 8 year old. Lol.


So your qualification for being broken is 1) makes its points back, and 2) pisses other people off? You must think half the units in the game are broken.


.



No. Just cheap costing models that can easily get their points back without you being able to do anything to stop it. Although I do think some Necron stuff is broken. Other than that the Vindicare assassin is very close to broken since he can take out vehicles really easy.




Besides, why do you assume I'm upset? In particular, why do you assume that I'm upset because the Doom is so good? Or is that just your poor writing again, because while you said the latter I'm pretty sure that you didn't intend to mean that I'm upset about the Doom specifically, rather that other people get upset facing the Doom, and that I'm just upset, well, just because. Could you rephrase that, for clarity's sake?

.



I don't know why I think that. I think I quoted you enough to convey the moments when you seemed upset. Typically name calling is done when some one is upset. My 8 year old does it when he doesn't get his way


Didn't you just falsely accuse me of name-calling? There's a word for that, which daboarder already brought up. I never called you any names until this post, in which I pointed out some trollish behavior. Yet you've called me a brat. Very mature of you.
.



Hmmm and who called who brat first. I just used the words I was called. I'm not even really being creative since I am just repeating what you two are saying. Amazing you think I started calling people brat lol. My bad you two didn't do any name calling at all. You cought me red handed. I'm guilty. The two of you are outstanding posters I strive really hard to be like. One day I'll be like you two. Hello! Bols community. I have lied and said these two outstanding individuals are name callers. I even said one was trolling. I am scum and not worthy. Yes. They are right I am wrong. Man their insight is litterly mind



I never said anything about that. Don't put words in my mouth. What I do find odd, though, is that you agree here thatthe Doom can be 'handled', yet you seem so adamant that it's broken.
.



Nah I can quote away instead of doing that. So it can be handled, doesn't mean it's not broken.



Why are we still talking about Fire Dragons .


Yes why are we? You must really like them. Darklink=firedragons


They've only been brought up as they're the Eldar's best source of massed Str 8. I've said a couple of times now that Eldar are old and outdated, so the fact that they can be countered isn't really relevant. Saying the Doom is broken because it can presumably beat up Eldar is like saying someone's a good fighter because they can beat up a little kid.




Opinions should be backed up by arguments. Your argument seems to amount to 'teh Doom is awesome', and you've ignored everyone else's arguments except to take potshots at our competence at 40k and to nit-pick examples that are either irrelevant or out of context. But I guess you've claimed you've won, so I guess you win the internets.

.



Nope! You ignore my points and talk down to me lol. Want me to sing it in nursery ryme so you can understand. " The D-o-O-M falls from they sky!" " Big head meany falls from the sky!" Lalalalala. " Nothing stops it from nuking your mind." "Nuke!Nuke!Nuke!" " Nuking the mind!" " la!la!la!la!" Is that better. You can sing along after nap time.



Again with the hypocrisy?


Let me put it so you can understand better. When I said they rarely seen the light of day. I meant they are usually targeted and die before they can do anything. Not that no one uses them. Hope you understand a bit better now.

Again with the condescending attitude? What are you, 12?



Ummm...? Did you mean 'never said anything'? Use your words, dude. They make you take english classes in school for a reason.
.



Trolling are we. Nevermind me so sorry. You be no troll in here!






Huh, one of your posts must have gotten deleted. Would you be so kind as to repost what you said to address your argument?




Actually, there are at least 8 separate units that I can think of off the top of my head, not counting Tau and Fire Dragons, that can get large quantities of melta. Besides, didn't you say earlier that Fire Dragons would never be able to kill the Doom because they're so easy to kill themselves that they'll never actually get a chance to shoot unless you let them?




? Really? Space Wolves, maybe, but even now in 6th they're a lot less common than in 5th. But other than Long Fangs, I don't know if Devestators have ever been spammed by actual, competitive armies.



Umm... no, that's not what it means. You fail at statistics.

What that means is that, on average dice, Marines will cause .74 ID wounds on the Doom. So there's about a 40% chance they'll kill the Doom. I don't feel like doing the math to get the exact percentage, binomial probability is kind of a pain.

Anyways, sure, Devestators aren't the greatest. If all you've got is one single unit of Devestators, then you've got problems.

Besides, if you're assuming Devestators specifically, then you should take into account the Signum for some BS 5, and Null Zone for reroll invulnerable saves. That bumps you up to 1.31 wounds on average, so more than 50% of the time you'll kill the Doom.



6 Long Fangs with 5 MLs is, what, ~150pts? Cheaper than the Doom. And there should be several of them. Comparisons like this in a vaccum amount to little more than strawmen arguments.

[Kyban]

WOW, those are long posts.

That is all, carry on.

[The Girl]

Folks... keep it civil. There's no need to add name calling, grammar picking, or insults about one another's intelligence to the conversation.

Thank you.

[chicop76]

The vindicare, calladius, etc. I was curious if anyone felt these was named characters. Even the swarmlord, etc are not really named characters. The reason I say that is th vindicare have multiple assassins and same with the swarmlord where they're mutiple swarm lords out there.

However you have one creed for example.

[Caitsidhe]

Gave me a headache just reading to catch up.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

What even is this fresh hell?
If only I was a mod. :rolleyes:

[chicop76]

Gave me a headache just reading to catch up.
Doom is it Broken???

Also characters like the Vindicare would you even consider them as named characters.

That's it in a nutshell.

[Aegwymourn]

Gave me a headache just reading to catch up.


I got 3/4 of the way through and realized I'd lost 10 mins of my lunch break >.<

To the op: Yes I have used special characters and think that they add some flavor to lists. I do think it is a bit silly that to make a number of themed or "fluffy" lists you have to use a special character, or at the very least the stats of one.

[chicop76]

I got 3/4 of the way through and realized I'd lost 10 mins of my lunch break >.<

To the op: Yes I have used special characters and think that they add some flavor to lists. I do think it is a bit silly that to make a number of themed or "fluffy" lists you have to use a special character, or at the very least the stats of one.

Besides the Dark Angels the other books for 6th Tau, Chaos Marines, and Chaos Daemons. I feel like I have an option of not playing a special character.

With chaos marines the only special character I can see you justify really playing is Typhus for the plague zombies. Other than that you can, and in som cases the regular hq options are better and loow you to do the same thing. Like you can take a nurgle champion and be able to use plague marines as troops without picking typhus.

With Chaos Daemons it's the same as with the marines. Skarbrand is good/bad, Fateweaver is good/ I don't know, Ku'Gath/ ghee unclean one is better. Most of your options tend to be better than your named counter part. Even Fateweaver do not come off as a have to take anymore. Picking named characters at this point is due to you wanting to.

Even with Tau. I feel free to go no named or use a named character. Sure darkstrider, longshot, shadowsun are nice, but you d not need them.

When you hit Dark Angels is where you feel like you have to take one. To do all bikes you have to choose between 2 chrarcters and with terminators as troops it's the same story. What I see is people going back to vanilla marines due to the captain on a bike allows bikes as troops.

The problem with Dark Angels is people want ravenwing or deathwing, but have to play a special to use those two army sets. No one don't really want to play Dark Angels since they can play regular marines if that was my case.

I honestly don't care anymore if you use a name chracter anymore. However in the Dark Angel army I understand why you would do so. With the other 3 I just shake my head and go whatever.

I play specials depending on the army. Some armies the specials feel like you forced to take them. While with others you d not have to.

[Caitsidhe]

Doom is it Broken???

Also characters like the Vindicare would you even consider them as named characters.

That's it in a nutshell.

No. If it were broken you would see it more often rather than once in a blue moon. Your particular META aside, you just don't see it much. Very little is actually individually broken in the game anyway. It can't be; nothing can. The game isn't balanced at all in the first place. Trying to pick out this model or that model and say "there is a problem here" is myopic at best. We play the hand we are dealt. There is no point in talking about whether or not something is broken, only the ways in which we will try to deal with it. I have never failed to kill the Doom in a single turn if that makes you feel better.

[DarkLink]

Gave me a headache just reading to catch up.

Don't bother, there's not really anything worth reading. I only responded a couple of times out of amusement, but that only goes so far.

[Popsical]

I use special characters in 3 of my 4 armies i own. Why not.
Astral claws: lugft huron is such a fundamental figure for them that it seems less approppriate not to use him.
Sisters: celestine is probably your only hope of competing at all in melee.
Grey knights: i built an adeptus custodes list so draigo lets me use paladins as troops and these guys are the only guys fit to represent the emperor and his custodes.
Tyranids: i dont use any of them, the dooms too eratic and the pornlords save isnt as good as id like.

Broken units? The vendetta. Cheap as chips and reliable. Units must be able to reliably influence games to a winning conclusion to be really classed as broken.

[DarkLink]

Well, you can also take the Vendetta en masse. Same thing with Necron flyers. Flyer rules are terribly imbalanced, so any flyer you can spam is game-breaking unless you're facing another flyer spam list.

[Popsical]

True. Most fliers are pointed highly so spamming isnt so bad. As you say the vendetta and some cron fliers are so cheap that it causes massed spam issues to break games before they begin. Im not sure where gw are going with the game at the mo. Unless they start to produce anti air units to counter flier spam then the meta will be very one dimensional for the foreseable future.
Im not a fan of the latest flier developement myself but hey ho grin and bare it.