Fenrisian Wolves as wargear

[VulkansApprentice]

Ok, am I just reading into this too deeply?

When an SW IC(Lord or Ragnar) takes wolves as wargear, have they become their own unit and unable to join others until the wolves are dead?

Or are they still an IC that can join another unit, and the wolves are basically just big hairy attacks squigs for a wolf warboss?

[The AKH]

I read it as option number 2; the wolves are effectively pieces of wargear that have to stay within 2" of the Wolf Lord. The Lord remains an independent character, able to join and leave units.

[PhoenixFlame]

I read it as option number 2; the wolves are effectively pieces of wargear that have to stay within 2" of the Wolf Lord. The Lord remains an independent character, able to join and leave units.

Agreed, tho I do wonder about things like majority Toughness (probably not an issue) and the wolves given up an extra kill point (which if I'm remembering correctly they actually do ...tho I'd love to be wrong here :p )

[The AKH]

Wolves are T4 so majority toughness isn't an issue unless your Lord is on a Thunderwolf (and alone - if he was with a Thunderwolf Cav unit, the T5 Thunderwolves would be in the majority).
I would guess that the wolves are not a KP because they are neither a retinue or a separate unit - they are wargear, and essentially part of the Wolf Lord's Killpoint. This is reinforced by the fact that they can never operate on their own; if/when the Wolf Lord dies, his wolves are removed along with him.

Although, in practice, the wolves usually die first. :p

[S0ULDU5T]

If they are wargear, wouldn't you able to allocate wounds to them in melee? I'm not arguing, I honestly don't know and was going to post this thread before I saw it already existed ^_^ Isn't there a precedent with Tau taking drones that operated in the same fashion?

Couple of other somewhat related questions:

Arjac is a wolf guard so you spend the points to upgrade a wolf guard model to him, than he joins any other legal unit as a psuedo-sargent. He counts as an upgrade model for that unit just as a normal sargent would, right?

Lukus' ability to have opponents reroll failed rolls to hit...slightly odd. He is an upgrade character so can't be singled out which is why the ability says "specificly allocated". So if th unit takes wounds, I can allocate them to or away from Lukus and any that I do allocate to him must then be rerolled. Am I reading this right?

[The AKH]

I think you're right about allocating wounds to wolves - although I think opponents in CC would have to choose to attack either the wolves or the Lord, if they were the only ones in combat.

Arjac can join units in the same way as any other wolf guard - so yes, he's just an upgrade character.

Lukas' rules seem to have been written as if he was an IC - except he's not. The only way (until it's errata'd/FAQ'd) that this ability will come into play is if Lukas' Blood Claw buddies all die.

[Levitas]

It makes my head hurt.

Imagine a wolf lord with 2 wolves joins a blood claw unit with lukas the trickster. Who then charge into an existing combat between differently armed thunderwolves and differently armed nob bikerz.

Enjoy that one.

[DarkLink]

I think you're right about allocating wounds to wolves - although I think opponents in CC would have to choose to attack either the wolves or the Lord, if they were the only ones in combat.

Arjac can join units in the same way as any other wolf guard - so yes, he's just an upgrade character.

Lukas' rules seem to have been written as if he was an IC - except he's not. The only way (until it's errata'd/FAQ'd) that this ability will come into play is if Lukas' Blood Claw buddies all die.

I would say that the wolves are part of the Lord's unit (making it the only multi-model IC unit I can think of), and so your opponents would not need to pick between the lord and the wolves, and you would allocate wounds between them.

[S0ULDU5T]

I would say that the wolves are part of the Lord's unit (making it the only multi-model IC unit I can think of), and so your opponents would not need to pick between the lord and the wolves, and you would allocate wounds between them.

Argh, two conlicting points of view that are equally viable! This means that only a Star TRek-esque fight to the death must insue! Or a FAQ...but as I said above, wasn't there a precedent of this happening with Tau since their suits can take drones that I believe function in the same way? I checked the FAQ for Tau and didn't see anything but I'm also an idiot sometimes.

[Nabterayl]

The Tau might be precedent. The thing is, the Tau commander entry specifically says "If accompanied by drones, he may still join other units as an independent character." The Space Wolf entry doesn't have a similar explicit rule.

[S0ULDU5T]

The Tau might be precedent. The thing is, the Tau commander entry specifically says "If accompanied by drones, he may still join other units as an independent character." The Space Wolf entry doesn't have a similar explicit rule.

"if it smells like a duck and walks like a duck..." If wording is omitted that would make a rule more clear, wouldn't it make sense to differ to the model most similiar (within reason) instead of inferring that wording yourself?

Not saying your wrong, just thowing that out there - not even sure if there is a precedent with Tau or how similiar it is to be honest.

[PhoenixFlame]

Then there's the Lone Wolf to consider, and while he doesn't have the IC issues there are questions like majority armor saves, Weapon Skill, and Feel no Pain.
The Wolves take off if the fig they're attacked too ever drops so if you can choose where to put the wounds no one would ever put them on the wolves, but if you can't does it make it easier to hurt the Lone Wolf should he have two wolf 'upgrades' (or does it make it easier to hit the Wolf Lord if he does?)
There's also the issue of MotW, if these wolves count as wargear then a model with MotW wouldn't be able to benefit from them in close combat.... so apparently if you're a werewolf and you have pet wolves they won't fight in close combat anymore :rolleyes:

My point being the whole thing is unclear and causes issues almost any way you turn it **does an errata dance** we need some clarity.

...here's another one, you can't join a unit that isn't mounted on a thunderwolf if you take a thunderwolf mount as an upgrade... so does that mean you can't have wolves with a mount? And if not (since it's not actually prohibited in the rules) why can't you join a unit of wolves if you're on a thunderwolf mount? Is it really that Canis Wolfborn can lead and inspire wolves ... but only from a distance :confused: :p

you get the idea

[Jwolf]

Let's try to avoid lookingfor complicated ways to do something simple, shall we? A character that takes Fenrisian Wolves is still an IC, and the Wolves are normal models for all purposes unless the IC is killed. They act as wargear if he dies, going away with him, otherwise they're part of any unit he joins (or a unit with him, if he is acting independently).

[DarkLink]

The Tau might be precedent. The thing is, the Tau commander entry specifically says "If accompanied by drones, he may still join other units as an independent character." The Space Wolf entry doesn't have a similar explicit rule.

GW sometimes forgets to include clarifying clauses in their rule, so they probably just forgot to include a similar rule.

I have to agree with Jwolf. Just use common sense. This doesn't have to be complicated.

[PhoenixFlame]

Let's try to avoid lookingfor complicated ways to do something simple, shall we? A character that takes Fenrisian Wolves is still an IC, and the Wolves are normal models for all purposes unless the IC is killed. They act as wargear if he dies, going away with him, otherwise they're part of any unit he joins (or a unit with him, if he is acting independently).

Which would then make them incompatible with the use of a Thunderwolf mount and/or joining a unit of Thunderwolf Cavalry?

Feel free to ignore the below as it is semi-off topic :o

Here's my percentage in all this, I like to know my army lists (and the codex they come from) backwards and forwards. I'm a pretty savvy guy for the most part but I don't assume that I'm always right or that just because I've read something a given way that means it's the best/only way to read it. So I really like the POV of others on the same subject to check my thoughts against. If the answer to a given question is "be chill there may be a touch of gray in the wording but everyone knows what it means" that's fine... so long as everyone (or even just more than half of players) actually do know what it means and take it the same way.
My least favorite thing is to be mid game and have someone tell me "no you can't do/use XYZ like that" because they think I'm trying to pull some rules exploit and cheat them. (corrections when I've simply overlooked or miss read things are of course welcome but the assumption of intended abuse really isn't)
Having that response compounded by the loss of an option which was part of my build is very likely to take the fun out of a given round (there are many other ways to spend points which could have worked too if I'd known in advance that XYZ thing was going to be contentious). And since I'm not assuming that my POV is the end all it's important to cast a wide net and see what catches. In this case pointing out ways that the RAW are ambiguous and/or mildly conflicting.

And in the face of a lack of clear consensus on a given issue it would be nice to get a direct "yes/no" from GW about how something is employed.