The S-word....

[Crae]

*** This is not a "I want squats back" thread. More a discussion about elements of the game meta***

Following all the talk about the WD sub mini, I got to think about how dwarfs in space would evolve.
If we keep the fantasy mindset and continue to build on that idea, I think we would end up with a very different type of army then the fantasy one. I was surprised where this took me...

Theme: (broad common traits)
Mining
Merchants
Stronghold
Advanced technology/Engineering
Cannons/guns
Stout/short
Low magic

I think we can agree on the theme in general.
Working with mining and mineral gathering in the future is handled more by machines then physical labour. Mining is faster and small areas of minerals will be processed fast. There for they need to be able to redeploy their equipment relatively fast and most will be mobile in some form.

Being bound to stay with equipment, they would need a large fleet or a huge spacecraft to stay in. and equally they need to transport them self and what ever minerals they are going to sell.

Mining and and being dependant on your space craft will usually mean that there will be a high degree of technological and advanced science going on. Stuff that is able to smash mountains and asteroids is properly good for killing stuff too.

Working with specialised equipment and in specialised crews will usually mean you develop some form of cast system. Engineers/miners, Defence/military, Ship crews and a merchant/diplomat class. All need to work together for it to work, but they need some one to bind it all together so a prominent leader of sorts is a must. Some one needs to have the last say, else nothing gets done.

Being dependant on technology also usually means that you end up with a weaker physic and that would make the space faring dwarfs slimmer and the low gravity will make them taller (Tau ?)...hmmm on the other hand they might spend a lot of their time in High gravity fields mining, so it might just be the opposite.

A weaker physic means you are less adapt at fighting in close combat and that leaves you with ranged weapons. A High Technology level will ensure that you have access to some nasty weapons to fend off other space faring creatures.

Being weaker physically they will need to have equipment that can help them when they need something done where they cant go with ordinary machines. They will need some form of Exo suit that will enhance their ability to work and fight in closed conditions and still be safe from the environment. They need to be able to manoeuvre fast and need to be able to manoeuvre in a vacuum so they would need some form of jet packs.

They are as a race resistant to psi powers and are what you would call psi dense. They almost don't register in the warp. They don't manifest psi powers as a race.

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As I went on thinking about them, I realised more and more that they reminded me a lot of the Tau. The stranger is, when I thought more and more about it, it seemed to me that a lot of the elements like safe plasma, rail guns and exo suits are all elements that people usually mention when talking about Squats/Demiurge. If you on top of that think about the effect of high tech on dwarf, you end up realising that a dwarf of sound mind would just blast up his enemies instead of bashing away. The more refined the tech got the more the dwarfs will rely on it and we end up with a race that stat wise are a lot like the tau.

What do you think about it ? Are the Tau in reality a squat substitute ? Have they gone so far as to create another race, so they didn't have to fight against the fantasy counter parts Arch typical dwarfisms.

*** This is not a "I want squats back" thread. More a discussion about elements of the game meta***

[Kahoolin]

Hey that's pretty neat. So all those people who make squats with counts-as guard or orks should be using Tau instead? That would make an interesting army, so many options for battle suits!

The only traditional dwarf traits you haven't got in there that I can think of are vengefulness and stubborness...

[Sangre]

And axes.

[Aldramelech]

And great music! Gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold!

[Denzark]

I am a one time Squat player, up to 2ed - Dark Millenium. Some interesting parallels to be sure, but not 100%.

1. Squats used to be no slouch in hand to hand, and actively sought it out. Back in the day, hth weapons had their own strenght stats - you hit with the weapon strength - power axes abounded.

2. The physical thing with mining autonatically didn't really apply - the high gravity not only made them squat but made them well muscled as well. Their mining was more hightec hand held stuff, with squats at the coal face, rather then fully automated systems doing the work leaving them to laze around drinking ale.

3. Squat Living Ancestor powers rocked. They were not as offensive as some to be sure, but things like some sort of template force field/stasis equivalent that nothing could shoot through? And I am sure i remember some sort of mind control power - am I dreaming or did I manage successfully to use an ancestor to take over a terminator with assault cannon - back when it was S8, D10 damage? Follow on fire? you can imagine how this ripped.

4. They do not really have a caste system - bikers, engineers, adventurers were all equally respected, it was age was the clincher (yes OK lords were family wise but based on feudal clans not caste)

There is a 'Collecting Citadel Miniatures wiki' (at work so do not have link) that also has unreleased miniatures. The unreleased 2nd ed squat sculpts had gone from bikers in rogue trader(who often looked suspiciously like John Blanche or Mr Morrison) to viking-esque winged helmets.

A great shame as this was a good direction - I prefer them to manga rip-offs (tau) necrons with green plasticky tubes that look like toys, and bondage eldar with spikes all over (DE).

[Crae]

I am a one time Squat player, up to 2ed - Dark Millenium. Some interesting parallels to be sure, but not 100%.

1. Squats used to be no slouch in hand to hand, and actively sought it out. Back in the day, hth weapons had their own strenght stats - you hit with the weapon strength - power axes abounded.

2. The physical thing with mining autonatically didn't really apply - the high gravity not only made them squat but made them well muscled as well. Their mining was more hightec hand held stuff, with squats at the coal face, rather then fully automated systems doing the work leaving them to laze around drinking ale.

3. Squat Living Ancestor powers rocked. They were not as offensive as some to be sure, but things like some sort of template force field/stasis equivalent that nothing could shoot through? And I am sure i remember some sort of mind control power - am I dreaming or did I manage successfully to use an ancestor to take over a terminator with assault cannon - back when it was S8, D10 damage? Follow on fire? you can imagine how this ripped.

4. They do not really have a caste system - bikers, engineers, adventurers were all equally respected, it was age was the clincher (yes OK lords were family wise but based on feudal clans not caste)

There is a 'Collecting Citadel Miniatures wiki' (at work so do not have link) that also has unreleased miniatures. The unreleased 2nd ed squat sculpts had gone from bikers in rogue trader(who often looked suspiciously like John Blanche or Mr Morrison) to viking-esque winged helmets.

A great shame as this was a good direction - I prefer them to manga rip-offs (tau) necrons with green plasticky tubes that look like toys, and bondage eldar with spikes all over (DE).

I am not talking about squats, Denzark. The whole idea about squats as the used to be is not taken into account. I have played since 2nd edition came out (started in 1990) and my friend played squats up until Dark millennium too. I think the two powers you are talking about is Iron will and Force dome btw.

The thing is, if you consider the aspect of putting fantasy dwarfs into space and let them evolve, they will have a tendency to evolve towards some of the stuff I described above. If your short and stunty and everything else is deadly dangerous, then you would sure use your superior fire power to get an advantage. I know that the original squats where kind of a joke. If you where to reinvente the race totally and took into consideration their new setting and the access to high tech, I am pretty sure you would end up with something reminding of Tau.

The whole idea of copy pasting stuff from fantasy doesn't work, we know that, but how would they bee if you put them in a new environment and how would they evolve as a race after tens of thousand of years?.

Btw. Assault cannon was 3 rapid fire dice too....potentially 9 shots per round....loved it :)

[Grotzooka]

And great music! Gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold!

Terry Pratchett reference! 5 points!

[MightyOrang]

I think it's an interesting theory ... especially if you consider that GW wanted to make a definite break with the 'Fantasy as 40k as Fantasy as 40k' overlap. And the manga genre is so rich that there's plenty to go with ...

However... to their credit, the Tau are so very different in terms of their backstory, their fighting style, and so on, I think that the link becomes a weak one ... no dwarf 'culture' in fantasy that i know of embraces the quasi-Soviet mode -- it's usually all just harmonies on the drunken scottish clansman theme ...

and then how to explain the Kroot? dwarves never had allies, save for the odd Empire army.

the part of it i have trouble with is the argument that the squats were boring or too close to the imperial guard or whatever ... i reject that logic. there are tons of WFB players who play dwarves despite the mobility handicap -- a very loyal following that could be harnassed into 40k who'd spurn the idea of playing blue fishmen as a substitute. I never played squats, but i did play 2nd Ed and read their codex in the Red compendium and such -- it had a neat twist on things.

And you can't make the argument re: similarities when you have FIVE space marine codices out there ... GW clearly isn't bothered by overlapping backstories / rules.

oddly enough i just think it's an area where they don't seem to want to make $$$ on willing custmers. FW could stamp out resin arms for conversions ... that alone would generate considerable sums.

[Denzark]

***

What do you think about it ? Are the Tau in reality a squat substitute ? Have they gone so far as to create another race, so they didn't have to fight against the fantasy counter parts Arch typical dwarfisms.

*** This is not a "I want squats back" thread. More a discussion about elements of the game meta***

You said this. You then said you weren't talking about squats. I am responding to this point - with evidence that says no, and points out why your theory (call it dwarf development if you will you still wrote this comment) is off the mark.

Try and keep up with yourself for pete's sake.

[Crae]

I think it's an interesting theory ... especially if you consider that GW wanted to make a definite break with the 'Fantasy as 40k as Fantasy as 40k' overlap. And the manga genre is so rich that there's plenty to go with ...

However... to their credit, the Tau are so very different in terms of their backstory, their fighting style, and so on, I think that the link becomes a weak one ... no dwarf 'culture' in fantasy that i know of embraces the quasi-Soviet mode -- it's usually all just harmonies on the drunken scottish clansman theme ...

and then how to explain the Kroot? dwarves never had allies, save for the odd Empire army.

the part of it i have trouble with is the argument that the squats were boring or too close to the imperial guard or whatever ... i reject that logic. there are tons of WFB players who play dwarves despite the mobility handicap -- a very loyal following that could be harnassed into 40k who'd spurn the idea of playing blue fishmen as a substitute. I never played squats, but i did play 2nd Ed and read their codex in the Red compendium and such -- it had a neat twist on things.

And you can't make the argument re: similarities when you have FIVE space marine codices out there ... GW clearly isn't bothered by overlapping backstories / rules.

oddly enough i just think it's an area where they don't seem to want to make $$$ on willing custmers. FW could stamp out resin arms for conversions ... that alone would generate considerable sums.

I agree about dwarfs in space not being boring, they just needed to make the theme more dark/gothic. They went the wrong way with them and saying they couldn't come up with an interesting theme is just blatantly stupid. My point is more, that if you think about how the Dwarfs would develop in space, under very different conditions, compared to living under a mountain. When I consider the idea, I come up with a lot of stuff that remind me of the tau mechanics currently.

I might not have conveyed that very well in the first post, but English is my second language....so sorry. The thing is, they started work on the Demiurge and they seem to be a lot more oriented towards space mining and being a space faring race. When you live on a spacecraft and you are solely dependant on each other, it is easy to fall into a cast/clan/group system where members of a certain work group form tight knit groups that keep together, but can not survive without the other casts/clans/groups. Having different groups that have equal power in the form of being dependant on each other, would mean that you would need some one to have the last say, aye a leader of sorts.

If you further more conisider the very limited physical abilities of the dwarfs, especially after being exposed to 0G for a long time, you would end up with a race that would depend more and more on technology and in doing that would tend to favour long range weapons. Being slow and not so agile, does not mean that much if you can just blow off you opponents head. The tendency is already there in fantasy with dwarfs using alot of cannons and gunpowder weapons.
Living on space crafts limits the amount of space and support systems that can handle only a certain amount of people. Being not so good at close combat any more would make them more dependant on outside help when the fighting gets rough.

My question in the end should have been more in the direction of: "How would you imagine the dwarfs would evolve in space?. No prehistory and no connection to the squats or humans."


You said this. You then said you weren't talking about squats. I am responding to this point - with evidence that says no, and points out why your theory (call it dwarf development if you will you still wrote this comment) is off the mark.

Try and keep up with yourself for pete's sake.

I don't know this Pete and I don't really care about Pete and his sake. Keeping up with myself is hard at time...especially with the sun ion my back, trying to catch up with my shadow.

My point is really what I wrote above. I might have formulated myself bad, since it is my second language. I did in no way intend to make you mad or anything Denzark. I was trying to turn the discussion into the direction I wanted it to go. I am very much intrested in what you have to say, but working from a different standpoint then the current squats, working on them with a more realistic/"real life" view.

From my standing point, they might have had alot of this stuff laying around from creating the Demiurge it wouldn't wonder me if GW would pick up some old notes and say..hey...nice ideas...to bad we don't want dwarfs in space...and btw we are gonna start GW asia, so if we could rework it into some more usable stuff, we could maybe sell a lot this if it was more mangaish. They did after all want to separate the fantasy and 40 genre more. Sorry again if you felt that I was attacking you, that was not my intend.

-Crae-

[Denzark]

My point is really what I wrote above. I might have formulated myself bad, since it is my second language. I did in no way intend to make you mad or anything Denzark.
-Crae-

Hey Crae

No problems it did not make me angry, and I expect a bit of banter if I stick my head over the parapet here. And believe me I am impressed because I would never have guessed from your first post that English wasn't your first language you sure as hell speak it better then what I probably do yours:D