The Summoning

[Sgiusini]

Hi, it's me again!

My tactic using The Summoning caused quite a flamed dicussion in my gaming group. Lots of people trying to deny the tactic with rules interpretations.

So, to be fair, we will collect some ideas from here and have a kind of neutral interpretation.

The question is: can a Librarian embarked on a vehicle (with or without fire points) get to use The Summoning?

1) The power states: "Chose a unit anywhere on the table".

2) The rulebook states: "Unless stated otherwise, the psyker must have line of sight to the target".

3) So, if line of sight is required, shouldn't the power states "Chose a unit within line of sight"?

Comments are more than welcome!

Thanks!

[Magpie]

As it stands the RAW says that you cannot use The Summoning on a unit you cannot see and that includes the Librarian being in a transport.

In the absence of an FAQ there is no way around that.

However, given that in the 5th Ed the power could be used on a unit the Libby could not see, there's a pretty strong case for a house rule to say that he can.

[daboarder]

Hi, it's me again!

My tactic using The Summoning caused quite a flamed dicussion in my gaming group. Lots of people trying to deny the tactic with rules interpretations.

So, to be fair, we will collect some ideas from here and have a kind of neutral interpretation.

The question is: can a Librarian embarked on a vehicle (with or without fire points) get to use The Summoning?

1) The power states: "Chose a unit anywhere on the table".

2) The rulebook states: "Unless stated otherwise, the psyker must have line of sight to the target".

3) So, if line of sight is required, shouldn't the power states "Chose a unit within line of sight"?

Comments are more than welcome!

Thanks!


Those are the exact wordings on the rules correct?

So whats the conflict?
It is stated otherwise in the rule that it ignores the LOS restriction in favour of its own targeting restrictions, or lack thereof.

However what you will need to check is the in depth FAQ and Eratta on casting psychic powers from within vehicles, as that is usually not allowed.

I'll reply again later, once I've found the relevant information.

[Nabterayl]

The question, I think, is the usual one - is a unit on the table when embarked upon a transport, provided that transport is on the table?

[daboarder]

The question, I think, is the usual one - is a unit on the table when embarked upon a transport, provided that transport is on the table?

As I said, 6th sorted all that nonsense out with specific rulings on units ability to cast out of and into transports.

edit:

If the psychic power requires a target, you must nominate it at
this point. Unless otherwise stated, the Psyker must have line
of sight to his target. This means that a Psyker embarked on
a Transport can only target himself, his vehicle or another unit
embarked on the same vehicle as the Psyker, Similarly, a Psyker
outside a Transport cannot target a unit embarked within one


Can Psykers use a Transport’s Fire Point(s) to manifest powers
that require line of sight whilst still embarked? (p78)
A: No. Note, however, that witchfire powers specifically
allow you to do so and are the one exception to this rule

Only restrictions on the use of psychic powers from inside a vehicle I have found.

Again it refers to "line of sight" which summoning explicitly ignores.

As such you may cast the power from a transport

[Magpie]

Again it refers to "line of sight" which summoning explicitly ignores.

No it doesn't. Nothing in the Summoning rule nor the errata says that the power can be cast without line of sight, which is the new requirement.

[daboarder]

choose a friendly, non-vehicle unit that is not locked in combat anywhere on the battlefield.

That's the firing restriction. not "any unit on the table within LOS" or "any unit within LOS"

codex > Rulebook

[Magpie]

"Unless stated otherwise" means that there must be an explicit statement that says the power does not require line of sight.

"Anywhere on the table" does not mean you don't need line of sight.

[daboarder]

Unless stated otherwise is due to 5th ed artifacts, 5th ed psychic powers have their firing restrictions built in.

[Nabterayl]

Yeah, I ... don't see the argument here. The quotes you've adduced clearly stand for the proposition that no model has line of sight into or out of a transport (with a limited exception for fire points). I don't see how they say anything definitive about whether an embarked unit is "on the table" or not.

So ... a psyker outside a transport does not have line of sight to a unit in that transport. Agreed. How do you go from there to the proposition that the unit in the transport is "on the table" within the meaning of Summoning? I don't see any relationship one way or the other.

[Magpie]

I don't think we're talking about being on the table.

The FAQ states quite clearly that units in transports cannot be Summoned, the transport itself can tho'.

The question is if "Anywhere on the table" also means out of line of sight. Yes it is a vestige of 5th Ed but until an FAQ brings it up to date it isn't a goer, as I said in my first post.

[Nabterayl]

Sgiusini, can you confirm that that is the question, or clarify if it isn't?

[DarkLink]

The Librarian is inside a transport (say a Land Raider). Can it Summon another unit?

[Nabterayl]

To be honest, I don't think there's a clear answer to that question. The Summoning bids us target a unit "anywhere on the battlefield," and the FAQ clarifies that a unit embarked on a transport is ineligible as a target. That could be because (i) a unit embarked on a transport is not "anywhere on the battlefield" (whether a model has to have its base physically on the play area to be "on" the table is not something the rules make clear) or (ii) for line of sight reasons.

If (ii), then "anywhere on the battlefield" should not be read as a statement that The Summoning does not require line of sight. If not (ii), then "anywhere on the battlefield" maybe should be read as a statement that The Summoning does not require line of sight. But there is no way to tell from the FAQ whether we can't target a unit inside a transport because (i) and not (ii), because (i) and (ii), or because (ii) and not (i).

My personal feeling is that when 6th edition talks about conflicts between rules, statements to the contrary, and so forth, the FAQs have so required those conflicts and statements to be explicit. Thus, I would tend to read "Unless stated otherwise" to mean "unless explicitly stated otherwise," rather than "unless implied otherwise." I would thus say that The Summoning does require line of sight, because the codex does not explicitly say otherwise. But that's just me. I don't think the bare texts give us a clear right answer one way or the other. Sometimes the RAW answer is there is no answer.

[Magpie]

I think the ability to cast witchfire powers and passengers being able to shoot makes it pretty clear the occupants of a vehicle are "on the table".

[DarkLink]

Right, the Librarian is the one in the transport, not the target. It doesn't matter if the target is inside a transport or not (you can just Summon the transport if it's got the Warp field thingie). What matters is if the Librarian can target the other unit from inside his own transport. He can clearly cast the psychic power, it's just a question of if he needs LOS or not.

[Magpie]

He can clearly cast the psychic power, it's just a question of if he needs LOS or not.

That's the nub of it yes.

[Nabterayl]

If one is of the opinion that a unit embarked upon a transport is on the table, then I think one has already answered the question. Consider:

The Summoning requires that the target be "anywhere on the table." However we read this, we must read it in such a way that a unit embarked upon a transport cannot be targeted.* We cannot reach such a conclusion by determining that a unit embarked upon a transport is not on the table, because we are taking it as a given that it is. The only other possibility is that The Summoning requires line of sight, which we know the librarian does not have to a unit embarked upon a transport.** Thus, we have demonstrated - assuming that a unit embarked upon a transport is on the table - that The Summoning requires line of sight.

This being the case, a librarian embarked upon a transport can only use The Summoning on the vehicle itself (assuming it has a Warp Stabilisation Field).***

* Remember that the FAQ answers the question of whether The Summoning can target an embarked unit or the librarian's own unit in an actual frequently asked question, rather than addressing it by amendment or erratum. Thus, the answer to that question is not a new rule or a change to the existing rule, but a guide that however we interpret the existing rule, the implications of our interpretation should match the FAQ.

** Except if the librarian himself is embarked upon that same transport - but if he is embarked on a non-superheavy transport, he is automatically attached to the embarked unit and thus cannot use The Summoning on that unit even though he can see them, since the embarked unit is now the librarian's unit.

*** Or, if the librarian is embarked upon a superheavy transport, on a unit embarked upon that transport other than the one the librarian has joined.

[Sgiusini]

What I want to do during the game:
- Embark a Librarian in a Stormraven, with a Mystic (The Summoning and Psychic Beacon works within 6" of them).
- Place this Stormraven, hovering, behind cover.
- Summon a flying Stormraven from across the table, so it easily fits within the 6" distance from the hovering Stormraven hull.

The Summoning is not defined through 6th edition rules, so it has no power type. Can it be treated as an Aura power? It's clearly not witchfire, not a blessing and not a hex.
Aura powers do extend from a vehicle hull, or I am wrong?
Did 5th edition rules stated that psychic powers did not need line of sight? If line of sight was required, than "anywhere on the table" can be interpreted as "no LOS required", right?

[DarkLink]

Summon a second Storm Raven to the Librarian's Storm Raven? Because otherwise, the Librarian can't Summon himself.

Summoning the Storm Raven is perfectly fine, but the question still remains if the Librarian can Summon anything at all while he's inside his Raven.

[Magpie]

- Embark a Librarian in a Stormraven, with a Mystic (The Summoning and Psychic Beacon works within 6" of them).

You don't need the Mystic anymore. The Stormraven can now take a locator beacon, as per "Death from the Skies".