PDA

View Full Version : Leman Russ Side Sponsons - When to Take Them?



ForeverHero
11-03-2009, 02:44 PM
So I've been working on an Imperial Guard Army and I'm almost to the point where I can start work on building some tanks. My question though is how often do you take side sponsons on a LR tank and is there a time when you wouldn't take them. For example, I am planning on taking a squadron of LR tanks and one will have a Vanquisher turret and the others regular Battle Cannon turrets. Should I take sponsons on all three or not?

Thx,

FH

Lord Azaghul
11-03-2009, 02:50 PM
First off, Don't squadron your tanks. Your just asking for trouble.

Sponsons: it really depense on what you want to accomplice: keep in mind you can swap turrets between hulls. I've got 4 hulls right now: 1 without sponsons, 1 with heavy bolters, 1 with plasma cannons, and 1 with multmeltas. I match these to my turrets: 1 demolisher 2 battle cannons 1 punisher (scratch built).

Recently My two favorate builds are Battle cannon lascannon no sponsons. And demolisher plasma sponsons.
It really depends upon the situation. I started fielding my BC without heavy bolters so my opponents couldn't stack saveable/unsavable wounds.

Norseman
11-03-2009, 03:10 PM
First off, Don't squadron your tanks. Your just asking for trouble.

I do not think that you have REALLY looked into the benefits of making squadrons with your tanks.
1. Basically ALWAYS in cover and get a cover save. (If you play it right)
2. Ignore Stunned and shaken. (the most common outcome from any type of shooting at you tanks)
3.Being able to stack Penetrating hits on one tank so you do not lose two.

IMHO The benifits of Squadrons far outweigh the demerits.

Anyways back to the question of the hour...


Leman Russ Side Sponsons - When to Take Them?

I only take sponsons when I am going for torrent of fire. With an Exterminator or Punisher I will take teh Heavy Bolters. With a Executioner I will go for the Plasma Cannons. However with a Demolisher I usually do not take sponsons because I feel that there is no complement for the Demolisher Cannon. The MMeltas are not bad if you are using the Demolisher for tank hunting, but i do not believe they are cost effective.

Vanquisher- Without.
Standard Leman Russ - Without
Punisher - HB Sponsons HB Hull HStubb Pintle

Do not mix your Leman Russes in Squadrons. Have multiples of the same. You have to fire at the same targets.

Aldramelech
11-03-2009, 03:21 PM
I dont use them, ever. Too many eggs inn one basket.

Sam
11-03-2009, 03:23 PM
I do not think that you have REALLY looked into the benefits of making squadrons with your tanks.
1. Basically ALWAYS in cover and get a cover save. (If you play it right)
2. Ignore Stunned and shaken. (the most common outcome from any type of shooting at you tanks)
3.Being able to stack Penetrating hits on one tank so you do not lose two.

IMHO The benifits of Squadrons far outweigh the demerits.

1. Not sure how you got to this, unless you play with a lot of large terrain to block your tanks.
2. No, they reduce stunned to shaken, they don't ignore anything.
3. This is true, but you also have a 50% chance to lose any tank that takes a penetrating hit, 67% if the hit was ap 1. Also, the opponent only has to fire at one target, instead of two or three. If you run a squadron of 3 tanks, yes you can stack all the penetrating hits on one tank (assuming only a third of the damaging hits were pens) and only lose one (unless, you know, they immobilize the others and destroy them) but if you had three seperate tanks then one tank would have taken ALL of the damage, leaving the other two unharmed.

That said, you can only field three heavy tanks without using squadrons, and there is of course an advantage to fielding more tanks.

MarshalAdamar
11-03-2009, 03:36 PM
Can't the leman Russ fire its turret weapon in addition to any other weapons it’s allowed to fire?

IF so then the sponsons are only really useful if you’re going to sit still and blast away. Other than that I would think that the side sponsons should compliment the main weapon so you get the most punch rather than using the 36 heavy bolters at 36" when you’re going to be lobbing battle cannon shots at 72"

I guess the advice is don't spend points on guns that are not going to be shooting.

Lord Azaghul
11-03-2009, 03:38 PM
1) Cover: You’re looking at the cover for infantry.
For vehs to get cover 50% of the models facing has to be obscured to get a cover save. 50% of the unit doesn’t apply. This is a common misconception
2) already addressed
3) Correct. But also increases chances of two tanks not being able to fire on your next turn (at the very least) from one volley or firing unit. Not to mention power claws crew right threw all russ variants. 3 Pens can mean 3 dead tanks! AP1 is a squadrons worst nightmare!

The only heavy supports that can be squaded effective are the artillary choices.
I also squad up walkers, since they’re nice and cheap.

OT: I do like to load up the demolisher with plasma sponson - having an entire vehicle that can do ap2 on everything is kind of fun!

Norseman
11-03-2009, 04:01 PM
1. Basically ALWAYS in cover and get a cover save. (If you play it right)

One tank can block the other tank from HW shots. If you play it right. if one tank has over 50% cover the squadron has 50% cover. if i read it right.


2. No, they reduce stunned to shaken, they don't ignore anything.

I at work and was shooting from the hip. I used to disagree with squadrons as well, until a friend explained them to me.

I do agree that if something with 3 or over high strength hits will screw you, but how many things can do that in the game that you will not be able to see coming. Most things that are popping your tanks have one heavy weapon hit at a time. Which you can stack on one tank every time, and the other two tanks get to shoot.

Most of the time you can mitigate damaging your ability fight in a squadron better than fielding single tanks.

Sam
11-03-2009, 04:07 PM
1) Cover: You’re looking at the cover for infantry.
For vehs to get cover 50% of the models facing has to be obscured to get a cover save. 50% of the unit doesn’t apply. This is a common misconception
2) already addressed
3) Correct. But also increases chances of two tanks not being able to fire on your next turn (at the very least) from one volley or firing unit. Not to mention power claws crew right threw all russ variants. 3 Pens can mean 3 dead tanks! AP1 is a squadrons worst nightmare!

The only heavy supports that can be squaded effective are the artillary choices.
I also squad up walkers, since they’re nice and cheap.

OT: I do like to load up the demolisher with plasma sponson - having an entire vehicle that can do ap2 on everything is kind of fun!

50% of the unit does apply, actually. BRB, p. 64:
"Then he takes any cover saves available to the squadron - use the rules for vehicles to determine if each squadron member is in cover (ignoring other members of the squadron, as if they were not there), and then the rules for normal units to work out if the entire squadron is in cover or not."

The rules for normal units say that the unit is in cover if 50% or more of the unit is in cover, so if 50% or more of the vehicles in the squadron have 50% or more of the facing obscured then the entire squadron is in cover.

Chumbalaya
11-03-2009, 04:08 PM
Squadrons have to worry about overkill, dropping 3 battle cannons on 1 unit is a waste. Losing tanks to immobilizing hits sucks, and spending 150 points to give a tank a cover save is silly.

Unless your tank is an Executioner, never take sponsons. They slow you down (static tank = dead tank) and they aren't terribly effective anyway (6 HB shots, big whoop).

Sam
11-03-2009, 04:11 PM
One tank can block the other tank from HW shots. If you play it right. if one tank has over 50% cover the squadron has 50% cover. if i read it right.

BRB, p. 64, on cover saves in squadrons:

"ignoring other members of the squadron, as if they were not there"

So one tank can only block the other tank from heavy weapon shots if they are not in the same squadron.

Aldramelech
11-03-2009, 04:13 PM
Squadrons have to worry about overkill, dropping 3 battle cannons on 1 unit is a waste. Losing tanks to immobilizing hits sucks, and spending 150 points to give a tank a cover save is silly.

Unless your tank is an Executioner, never take sponsons. They slow you down (static tank = dead tank) and they aren't terribly effective anyway (6 HB shots, big whoop).

100% agreement here.

ForeverHero
11-03-2009, 04:13 PM
Thanks for the many replies and I appreciate your comments, from what I’m seeing the consensus is that if they are tanks like the Vanquisher or Battle Cannon variety then I should not take the sponsons because they would probably be a waste of points. However, on tanks such as the Demolisher, I should probably take the sponsons because they will be targeting more infantry based units vs. going after other tanks.

The only thing that remains unclear is the current discussion on whether to use a squadron or not. My intent was to use a Demolisher variant by itself and then group two or three Battle Cannon versions together to allow for more armor on the table.

I’m aware that a penetrating hit that causes immobilization will in turn destroy one of the squadron’s tanks, until the last one is left then is damage is handles as normal. But I’m a little confused by the statement that the tank has to be covered more than 50% in order to gain the cover save. I don’t see how being in a squadron provides 50% cover?

Thx,

FH

Aldramelech
11-03-2009, 04:17 PM
It doesnt, read Sams post again.

Sam
11-03-2009, 04:19 PM
I do agree that if something with 3 or over high strength hits will screw you, but how many things can do that in the game that you will not be able to see coming. Most things that are popping your tanks have one heavy weapon hit at a time. Which you can stack on one tank every time, and the other two tanks get to shoot

I have a friend who fields a ten-man sternguard squad in a drop pod with all combi-meltas. A leman russ squadron would definitely be his first priority. 10 melta shots at close range will probably blow up every tank in the squadron at least once. My nobz squad with 9pks would also rip a squadron apart pretty quick (and come close to making their points back, too).

Also, it only take two penetrating hits to pop two tanks, which still would not happen if you had fielded the squadron as three separate tanks, unless it was a longfang squad full of lascannons that split its fire.

ForeverHero
11-03-2009, 04:19 PM
Yeah, I didn't see the other responses earlier as I was typing up my response and had to step away from my desk for a few minutes; see the reference now to the BRB, pg. 64 for clarification.

Lord Azaghul
11-03-2009, 05:04 PM
50% of the unit does apply, actually. BRB, p. 64:
"Then he takes any cover saves available to the squadron - use the rules for vehicles to determine if each squadron member is in cover (ignoring other members of the squadron, as if they were not there), and then the rules for normal units to work out if the entire squadron is in cover or not."

The rules for normal units say that the unit is in cover if 50% or more of the unit is in cover, so if 50% or more of the vehicles in the squadron have 50% or more of the facing obscured then the entire squadron is in cover.

Your totally reading that wrong.
Go to pg 62. The 50% it meantions is of 50% of the facing of the vehicle being fired at, in relation to to firers. Not 50% of the squad being in cover.

EDIT: just saw your last post

ForeverHero
11-03-2009, 05:17 PM
Ok… so now I’m a little more confused about the squadron issue; need a ducks and bunnies explanation ;) So if I have a tank squadron, then it only takes a penetrating hit to destroy the squad member or a penetrating hit with the result of immobilized or greater.

As for the cover save discussion, if my opponent can see less 50% of the fronts face of a single tank then the squadron would get a cover save but if they can see the full face of any tank in the squad then they would not get a save, correct?

Lord Azaghul
11-03-2009, 05:26 PM
Ok… so now I’m a little more confused about the squadron issue; need a ducks and bunnies explanation ;) So if I have a tank squadron, then it only takes a penetrating hit to destroy the squad member or a penetrating hit with the result of immobilized or greater.

As for the cover save discussion, if my opponent can see less 50% of the fronts face of a single tank then the squadron would get a cover save but if they can see the full face of any tank in the squad then they would not get a save, correct?

Each Vehicle would/would not have a separate cover saved, based upon the 50% of each individual vehicle being obscered. Read Page 62 & 64 in the main rule book.

The squardon rules for lossing a vehicle are basicly on a 4+. So if you suffer a Penetrating hit and your opponent rolls an immobilzed result (4) or better, your vehicle is treated as wrecked. SO insteard of you vehicle being dead on a 5 or 6 its dead on 4 ,5 or 6. Hope that helps.

Melissia
11-03-2009, 06:39 PM
Leman Russ Side Sponsons - When to Take Them?

Whenever it supports your tank's role in the battlefield.

On the LRBT and Exterminator, I find heavy bolters add a valuable number of shots which can help it cause more wounds in an anti-infantry role, yes, even against 3+ saves, but ESPECIALLY against anything that doesn't use 3+ saves.

On a demolisher, multimeltas, heavy flamers, or heavy bolters can all work. It's a short ranged vehicle to begin with, so it's going to be up in the enemy's face-- might as well give it that extra punch, especially with the multimeltas. Heavy bolters can help a punisher, but why are you taking a punisher?

On the Executioner, the plascan sponsons can add even more punch to it.

On the Vanquisher and Eradicator, they aren't too useful.

Frozen Tiger
11-04-2009, 06:56 AM
since you've managed to find a reaosn to put sponsors on most russes, does that mean you shoudl always put them on if you've got the points. I'd love to have an executioner with plasma cannon sponsors but how many points is that, ouch. The Exterminator with heavy bolters sounds a good one especially when fighting Orks although im sure a blast template would be jsut as effective if not more

Lord Azaghul
11-04-2009, 07:19 AM
The Exterminator with heavy bolters sounds a good one especially when fighting Orks although im sure a blast template would be jsut as effective if not more

I belive the plasma sponson would be more effective, mainly because they use 'blast'

Norseman
11-04-2009, 08:45 AM
Originally Posted by Sam View Post
50% of the unit does apply, actually. BRB, p. 64:
"Then he takes any cover saves available to the squadron - use the rules for vehicles to determine if each squadron member is in cover (ignoring other members of the squadron, as if they were not there), and then the rules for normal units to work out if the entire squadron is in cover or not."

Woh was playing that one wrong... thanks for the heads up... My view of Squadrons has diminished because of that simple rule clarification.

ForeverHero
11-05-2009, 10:23 AM
Thanks, I appreciate all your comments and advice on when to use or not use sponsons on a Leman Russ and what variations would benefit the most. You've given me something to really think about when planning my Imperial Guard list.

Thx,

FH

Xas
11-05-2009, 11:00 AM
I have 3 reasons to use sponsons:

a) on the beast that is a punisher/exterminator with 3 heavy bolters, a heavy stubber and pask. bane of everything which neither has AV14 nor a 2+ save AND FNP :)

this tank is an expensive toy but it is extremely good at taking out light and medium vehicles (land speeder squadrons) without beeing as vulnerable as a hydra. 4 s8, 9 s6 and 3 s5 shots at bs4 is deadly (s values against tanks).


b) if I want ap2 tempaltes I put plasma sponsons on a LRBT which makes it cost as much as an otherwie naked executioner. to me this is far more usefull because you can still fire your whole broadside on the move (for example against deep struk termis when you do not want to point your side towards frontal enemies), have the s8 ordnance maingun with a good range against other tanks/infantry at range and if you sit still you can incinerate most stuff even with two plasmacanons and 1 battlecnaon (5 plasmacanons are overkill in my book).


c) in apoc I like to put meltagun sidesponsons on my normal LRBT (they all usually carry lascanons as well). it is expensive but convenient to have because theay are 24" armor ignoring weapons and also mean that most vehicles which are dumb enough to end their turn within 12" of the tank are going to explode :).

also convenient is that the dont use a template so you can support the struggle around an objective without risk to your own troopers.


d) (sort of but extremely seldom) have a squad of 3 vanquishers all with lascanons and pask in one who also has multimelta sidesponsons. pask alone is able to pulverize any armored threat you face (which does not have structure points) but the 170points vanquishers are a good investment to keep pask alive. they also emphasis the squad as a heavy infantry and MC killer (6shots that wound allmost everything on 2+ and irgnore armor).

ForeverHero
11-06-2009, 09:25 AM
I have 3 reasons to use sponsons:

a) on the beast that is a punisher/exterminator with 3 heavy bolters, a heavy stubber and pask. bane of everything which neither has AV14 nor a 2+ save AND FNP :)

this tank is an expensive toy but it is extremely good at taking out light and medium vehicles (land speeder squadrons) without beeing as vulnerable as a hydra. 4 s8, 9 s6 and 3 s5 shots at bs4 is deadly (s values against tanks).


b) if I want ap2 tempaltes I put plasma sponsons on a LRBT which makes it cost as much as an otherwie naked executioner. to me this is far more usefull because you can still fire your whole broadside on the move (for example against deep struk termis when you do not want to point your side towards frontal enemies), have the s8 ordnance maingun with a good range against other tanks/infantry at range and if you sit still you can incinerate most stuff even with two plasmacanons and 1 battlecnaon (5 plasmacanons are overkill in my book).


c) in apoc I like to put meltagun sidesponsons on my normal LRBT (they all usually carry lascanons as well). it is expensive but convenient to have because theay are 24" armor ignoring weapons and also mean that most vehicles which are dumb enough to end their turn within 12" of the tank are going to explode :).

also convenient is that the dont use a template so you can support the struggle around an objective without risk to your own troopers.


d) (sort of but extremely seldom) have a squad of 3 vanquishers all with lascanons and pask in one who also has multimelta sidesponsons. pask alone is able to pulverize any armored threat you face (which does not have structure points) but the 170points vanquishers are a good investment to keep pask alive. they also emphasis the squad as a heavy infantry and MC killer (6shots that wound allmost everything on 2+ and irgnore armor).

Do you do this when you are only taking one or two tanks? Because this would appear to be very exspensive points wise for a squadron. But then again, I'm going to have to rethink my use of tank squadrons based on what I have seen in this whole thread.

Melissia
11-06-2009, 10:22 AM
since you've managed to find a reaosn to put sponsors on most russes, does that mean you shoudl always put them on if you've got the points. I'd love to have an executioner with plasma cannon sponsors but how many points is that, ouch. The Exterminator with heavy bolters sounds a good one especially when fighting Orks although im sure a blast template would be jsut as effective if not more

That depends entirely on the individual list in question. I would rarely ever take the plascan russ regardless of the situation, but if I did, I'd definitely want ot maximize the damage it can do.

SandWyrm
11-06-2009, 10:49 AM
Squadrons have to worry about overkill, dropping 3 battle cannons on 1 unit is a waste. Losing tanks to immobilizing hits sucks, and spending 150 points to give a tank a cover save is silly.

Unless your tank is an Executioner, never take sponsons. They slow you down (static tank = dead tank) and they aren't terribly effective anyway (6 HB shots, big whoop).

Perfectly said.

Moving tanks can adapt to the battlefield. Getting better shots and making better use of cover. And when charged, the enemy has to roll a 4 or 6 to hit them instead of auto-hitting them. That makes a huge difference.