Independent Characters Joining the Riptide

[Tynskel]

Hey BoLS,

Kirby ::barf:: ::fart::, has stated that ICs can join the Riptide because it can have drones, making it a 'multi-model unit'.

Is this the case?
I think not. Why?

Drones are a special circumstance to the normal rules for 40k.

A commander takes 2 drones as wargear. Now this is a 3 model unit, and only one model has the IC rule. However, the Tau Codex makes an exception that the drones do not count for the purposes of joining squads. Essentially, the Commander unit 'counts as' a single model for the purposes of the IC rule.

Since this is the case, the inverse of the rule should be applied to all models taking drones as war gear, for consistency.

A Riptide that takes Missile Drones should 'count as' a 'single model unit'. No ICs can join the Riptide.

[OrksOrksOrks]

Hey BoLS,

Kirby ::barf:: ::fart::, has stated that ICs can join the Riptide because it can have drones, making it a 'multi-model unit'.

Is this the case?
I think not. Why?

Drones are a special circumstance to the normal rules for 40k.

A commander takes 2 drones as wargear. Now this is a 3 model unit, and only one model has the IC rule. However, the Tau Codex makes an exception that the drones do not count for the purposes of joining squads. Essentially, the Commander unit 'counts as' a single model for the purposes of the IC rule.

Since this is the case, the inverse of the rule should be applied to all models taking drones as war gear, for consistency.

A Riptide that takes Missile Drones should 'count as' a 'single model unit'. No ICs can join the Riptide.

The problem here is that you're playing a different game from Kirby, you're playing to the spirit of the game, making sensible decisions to fit with the flavour of the game and taking the rules with an aim to work towards what is intended, Kirby and his followers are playing a non competitive game to win, they're going to twist and turn everything and take as many things literally as they can, even if it ignores playing in the spirit of the game, as long as it fits the literal interpretation of the rules, they'll do it (as long as they ignore that page in the rulebook that says you're meant to be friendly and ensure both players have fun)

[Magpie]

Spirit of the game not with standing, it does say pretty clearly that an IC can join a unit consisting only of drones and that the drones are very much considered additional members of a unit, so that does make it look pretty clear that a Riptide with drones can be joined by an IC.

[Tynskel]

The problem here is that you're playing a different game from Kirby, you're playing to the spirit of the game, making sensible decisions to fit with the flavour of the game and taking the rules with an aim to work towards what is intended, Kirby and his followers are playing a non competitive game to win, they're going to twist and turn everything and take as many things literally as they can, even if it ignores playing in the spirit of the game, as long as it fits the literal interpretation of the rules, they'll do it (as long as they ignore that page in the rulebook that says you're meant to be friendly and ensure both players have fun)

They are not taking things as 'literally' as they can. They are not considering the definitions of what they have stated, and they are not applied everywhere. There is no reason to suspect that I am not playing competitively. However, rules must be applied equally, or there is not point to having rules...

[Nabterayl]

Since this is the case, the inverse of the rule should be applied to all models taking drones as war gear, for consistency.
I disagree with this. The basic drone rule is "Drones taken as upgrades for a unit act as additional squad members in all regards" (call this A). "Independent Characters who have taken drones as upgrades are still permitted to join units" (call this B) is simply an exception to the basic rule, nothing more. There is no call to infer that B causes an Independent Character to count as a single model, let alone that drones do not count as additional squad members for purposes of Independent Character joining when taken by a non-Independent Character model.

[daboarder]

Honestly cry more guys, please.

This has been part of the rules for 2 editions now. Don't blame others because your unable to read and comprehend.

[Nabterayl]

... who should cry more, the people who think that ICs can join a Riptide unit or the ones who think they can't?

daboarder, I respectfully request that you keep your attitude out of these threads. It does nothing to elevate the quality of this forum for your arguments to be unclear and mixed with belittling attacks.

[daboarder]

... who should cry more, the people who think that ICs can join a Riptide unit or the ones who think they can't?

daboarder, I respectfully request that you keep your attitude out of these threads. It does nothing to elevate the quality of this forum for your arguments to be unclear and mixed with belittling attacks.

Those who cant read the following lines...


Independent Characters can join other units. They cannot, however,
join vehicle squadrons (see page 77) or units that always consist of a
single model


Drones taken as upgrades for a unit act as additional squad members in all regards

so It would be nice if they'd back up their rediculous and nebulous claims of "spirit" with actual quotes.

Because the rules are crystal clear.

[Magpie]

I agree that there does seem to be some inconsistency, particularly since the drones can sort of drift off to be a unit on their own or end up attached to a different unit entirely and make just the Riptide count for the kill point.

But I don't see it as an issue because:

The Drones are pretty clearly NOT wargear, they have their own stat line and they are Jet Pack Infantry (Drone) unit type.

An IC that is already "attached to a unit" can't then attach to another unit, but the IC's with their own drones are a specific exception to this, it's not so much that they don't count but rather they have a special allowance made for them.

The Riptide is very much like Mordrak and his Ghost Knights, they can't join other units but IC's can join them, even if you take Mordrak without an Ghost Knights because some could turn up later on.

[daboarder]

to be honest it doesn't really matter if they are wargear not.

If people want to split hairs like that its pretty hard to argue that drones aren't "models" as such that fact alone unlocks the ability for Riptides to have IC's joined to them.

[Magpie]

to be honest it doesn't really matter if they are wargear not.

It does matter quite a bit. Fenrisan Wolves are models that are wargear.

[OrksOrksOrks]

It does matter quite a bit. Fenrisan Wolves are models that are wargear.

Same worth squigs and ammo runts.

If people like daborder want to be sperg-lords and do that stuff because it literally says you can in the rules, that's fine, up to them, I would t want to play them though, because they're terrible people. Belittling people because they want to have and enjoyable game even if it means ignoring a logical inconsistency they could use for their advantage is not what the game is about.

Oh and BRB Page 8, Spirit of the Game, it's in the rules.

[daboarder]

Same worth squigs and ammo runts.

If people like daborder want to be sperg-lords and do that stuff because it literally says you can in the rules, that's fine, up to them, I would t want to play them though, because they're terrible people. Belittling people because they want to have and enjoyable game even if it means ignoring a logical inconsistency they could use for their advantage is not what the game is about.

Oh and BRB Page 8, Spirit of the Game, it's in the rules.

what you claim to be the spirit of the game is basically just whatever lets you get your own way right?

Rules are rules genius, I could say its in the spirit of the game that marines always win, doesn't make it true, but if I argue would you really roll that 4+?

[OrksOrksOrks]

what you claim to be the spirit of the game is basically just whatever lets you get your own way right?

Rules are rules genius, I could say its in the spirit of the game that marines always win, doesn't make it true, but if I argue would you really roll that 4+?

Do you have any friends at all with that attitude? I'm amazed you would ever get to play, I'd pack up my dice as soon as you opened your stupid mouth.

Spirit of the game is something everyone knows, its clear, the game is about having fun and making sure you both enjoy the time you're putting in, how would your example do that? You can't prove your point because you're a rules-obsessed autistic with no social skills or problem solving ability, so instead you're trying to change to point to what you want it to be so you can laugh at it, you see it a lot of hobby forums, people making ridiculous claims and stretching the other persons arguments to breaking point instead of trying to back up their own, its called a flase equivilent, look that up and work on your debating skills.

The rules aren't just hard and fast rules anyway, again, page 8 of the BRB make that clear, the rules are a starting point to facilitate making the game fun and interesting.

There is a logical way of reading the rules, or an aspergers way of reading them, its clear to anyone with a functioning brain that the riptide is not supposed to be joined by an IC, its obvious, same with the carnifex units, normal people get this and play like this, GW writed the rules for normal people, not you lot and your obsessive little minds that can't feel good about themselves unless they beat a 12 year kid at a game.



Spi but weridoes

[Magpie]

Just to clarify, why is allowing IC's to join with a Riptide not "cricket" ?

[daboarder]

There is a logical way of reading the rules, or an aspergers way of reading them, its clear to anyone with a functioning brain that the riptide is not supposed to be joined by an IC, its obvious, same with the carnifex units, normal people get this and play like this, GW writed the rules for normal people, not you lot and your obsessive little minds that can't feel good about themselves unless they beat a 12 year kid at a game.


I fail to see how directly ignoring rules is what was intended.


How are you drawing these lines in the rules in your brain?

A Carnifex can be taken in broods of 1-3....but because of the wiring in your brain you think that the previously quoted rule intends that because they are MC's they may not be joined by a prime......despite them clearly being a brood with multiples...

So would you then argue that Mephiston can be joined by Corbulo? Because the rule your butchering clearly states its intended for MC and Vehicles....


The rule is very simple and black and white, there is no grey area where you can whine, moan and table flip because the other person interpreted it differently, it is straight up set in stone.

edit:

I mean the rule even goes out of its way to highlight that only MOST monstrous creatures are single model units, not all and yet you still manage to fail comprehension.


Independent Characters can join other units. They cannot, however,
join vehicle squadrons (see page 77) or units that always consist of a
single model (such as most vehicles and Monstrous Creatures). They
can join other Independent Characters, though, to form a powerful
multicharacter unit!

edit 3:

Magpie, these problems arise as people don't like it when their opponent out smarts them through the use of force multipliers to increase the effectiveness of a unit beyond what they were expecting, it forces them to think on their feet about how to deal with the situation and usually the kind of people who make such ridiculous arguments find it easier to just bemoan their dice/opponent/codex/universe.

[Magpie]

its clear to anyone with a functioning brain that the riptide is not supposed to be joined by an IC, its obvious, same with the carnifex units, normal people get this and play like this, GW writed the rules for normal people, not you lot and your obsessive little minds that can't feel good about themselves unless they beat a 12 year kid at a game.

Sorry but it's not obvious at all. I can see no rules or sportsmanship reason why IC's cannot join Riptides or Carnifexes, I'd be glad to hear your thoughts

BTW if your going to cast doubts on the functionality of peoples brains, you might want to not use words like "writed"
Just saying.

[Sly]

Same worth squigs and ammo runts.

If people like daborder want to be sperg-lords and do that stuff because it literally says you can in the rules, that's fine, up to them, I would t want to play them though, because they're terrible people. Belittling people because they want to have and enjoyable game even if it means ignoring a logical inconsistency they could use for their advantage is not what the game is about. .

Squigs and ammo runts have a statline? And count as part of the unit for all other purposes?

[Sly]

its clear to anyone with a functioning brain that the riptide is not supposed to be joined by an IC, its obvious, same with the carnifex units, normal people get this and play like this

Not any normal people that I know. Those that I know look at the rules, at definitions of words in a dictionary if they don't know them, and decide based on WHAT THE RULES SAY, not on "how they feel like playing".

Alternately, we do have some games with some house rules. Calvinball in 40k, as it were. That's fine. Nothing wrong with a house rule that says that units with an MC in them cannot be joined by ICs. What is wrong is pretending that this is how the main rules read, rather than realizing that it's just how someone chooses to play the game instead of using the rules as close as possible to how they are written.

[bfmusashi]

This is one of the changes to 6th and it seems some people are having trouble adjusting. It went from ICs can not join a unit that would normally contain one model to can not join a unit that is always one model.

[SeattleDV8]

Actually bfmusahi, it was the same in 5th ed., I remember the big debate over Mordrak from the GK codex.

As it stands, the Riptide is not alway a single model and can be joined by IC's.
Once again Drones are confusing to people.

[bfmusashi]

Y'know, I went and cracked open the 5th rulebook and you are correct. It says always.

[Magpie]

I think 4th ed was different? IC's couldn't join each other back then I seem to remember.

[daboarder]

I think 4th ed was different? IC's couldn't join each other back then I seem to remember.

I believe 4th was straight up, cannot join MC's or Vehicles.

At the time there were no non-MC/Vehicles single model units, nor were there any MC broods (the HT/TG being a weird exception).

[Magpie]

Ok well that has changed now.

I still don't really see why joining an IC to a Riptide is such a terrible thing to do?

[chicop76]

It's terrible, because now your riptide can possibly have +2 cover save and 4 shield drones which 2 have a 3+ invulnerable save.

It can now re roll scatter, have twin linked shooting 7 ap 2 shoots any one and possibly deny cover.

I think a big one which I like my tides is for the three strength 10 smash attacks and with a commaner in to that's three strength 10 hits that re roll wounds on MC's and tanks.

In essence you just made an already hard to deal with unit even more of a pain. Also not to mention it can now have hit and run due to a commander.

I would get mad too if that garbage was thrown at me. It's like this moment I had.

Ok I have a swarmlord. I go ok. He has a body guard. Sure what ever, and now he puts a prime with the unit with a Swarmlord withthe endurance ability. That is a wtf. After 10 mininutes causing the whole gaming store to litterly rage. I thought it was going to be a battle royal. Eventually someone went on the Faq and read through the rules.

Even though it's a Wtf it's legal. Same as lower those models to leadership 2 and instant killing them with a calladius assasin, better pass that deny the witch and get iron arm on that swarmlord.

Anyway if that load of bs can fly than the riptide/ commander or shadowsun bs can fly. Oh did I mention that the riptide can possibly infiltrate, yeah. Heck you can put a commander and shadowsun with a riptide for the ultimate FU. +2 cover saves anyone with infiltrate. That a possible 14 ap 1-2 shots that can rain down on any unit within 12" plus missile drones and what ever drones the commaner desides to bring. With shadowsun you can hit and run on a 5. Man that's 6 shield drones to get through.

[bfmusashi]

And now they've infiltrated a unit that's most effective at range closer to you and they've limited themselves to shooting only one target a turn with that saturation of firepower?

[chicop76]

That's what target locks are for. If desired it can split fire 4-5 differant targets. Not to mention thorowing in an eldar jetbike farseer in the mix. You can put some interesting HQ's from eldar and space marines in that unit as well.

[bfmusashi]

I am clearly missing how the unit got Split Fire and how it can target more than two units with it.

[chicop76]

I am clearly missing how the unit got Split Fire and how it can target more than two units with it.

Shasow sun comes with target lock
You can give target lock to both the commander and the riptide.

Hince 3 splitfiring models with shadowsun that can split twice.

[Magpie]

OK you can have some pretty powerful combos but in my experience "all eggs one basket" things like this are generally shooting stars.

Thing that gets me is the more models you add to the Riptide the easier it is to kill. 4 shield drones make it pretty solidly S4 so it will be easier to wound the unit.
It also makes it more vulnerable to templates and blasts.
More wounds = more 1's and 2's on those saves.
With placement and a little luck you can set it up so that the wounds are avoiding the drones and being allocated to the Riptide.

[Tynskel]

OK you can have some pretty powerful combos but in my experience "all eggs one basket" things like this are generally shooting stars.

Thing that gets me is the more models you add to the Riptide the easier it is to kill. 4 shield drones make it pretty solidly S4 so it will be easier to wound the unit.
It also makes it more vulnerable to templates and blasts.
More wounds = more 1's and 2's on those saves.
With placement and a little luck you can set it up so that the wounds are avoiding the drones and being allocated to the Riptide.

The instant you buy your 2 missile shield drones for the Riptide, you are Majority Toughness 4.

[Magpie]

The instant you buy your 2 missile shield drones for the Riptide, you are Majority Toughness 4.

Yep, I thought I had said exactly that.

The thing is with 2 drones if you lose 1 you are back to T6 but with 4 you are going to be T4 for a lot longer and that is particularly so if you have 2 in front and 2 behind. Once you get through the drones on one side the Riptide is still T4

Edit: Wrong, see below.

[Nabterayl]

When did shielded missile drones become T4?

[Magpie]

When did shielded missile drones become T4?

Page 33 of Codex :Tau Empire. They are all T4

You can't actually have shielded missile drones can you ? Isn't it one or the other?

Edit: My bad, sorry I hadn't realised that the Ripper gets its own special Drones. Sorry.
Even still that simply furthers the case that Riptide + IC's = bad **** the more T4/T3 IC's you add with their drones the worse off it is.

[Black1705f]

One thing that came up the other day is some of the deficits in having drones added to a Riptide. If you add 2 drones you can force morale checks if you kill one (33% casualty). Also if you get into melee you could potentially kill a Riptide by sweeping advance if you win the combat. We looked everywhere and we could not find anything that makes the Riptide immune to leadership rolls. It is not a fearless unit like most monstrous creatures. I hope I'm missing something.

I also noticed the other day that the reference table shows shielded missile drones as T6 not T4 like all the other drones. I don't have the codex in front of me, but I assume the drone has T6 to prevent a lot of extra wounds being dumped on the Riptide.

[Nabterayl]

Shielded missile drones are T6 to prevent them changing the majority toughness of the unit, presumably. However, you are quite right that a Riptide could run away, or be swept, due to drone casualties.

[Apollinarius]

Is the Riptide an MC? If yes, only MC independent characters can join it (there are none).

The rules are super simple about this point. Independent characters can join units of their type. Infantry can't join jetpacks, jetpacks can't join jetbikes, and only MC can join MCs.

Otherwise, nothing would stop my Farseer from teaming up with the Avatar and taking down their whole army.

ICs can join single model units, provided they are of the same type. If you want, you can have all you ICs joining a non-IC single model unit.

[chicop76]

Is the Riptide an MC? If yes, only MC independent characters can join it (there are none).

The rules are super simple about this point. Independent characters can join units of their type. Infantry can't join jetpacks, jetpacks can't join jetbikes, and only MC can join MCs.

Otherwise, nothing would stop my Farseer from teaming up with the Avatar and taking down their whole army.

ICs can join single model units, provided they are of the same type. If you want, you can have all you ICs joining a non-IC single model unit.

Farseer can't cause the Avatar is one model. The reason why the Riptide can be joined is due to it taking missile pods.

3 models toughness 6
3 models toughness 4
1 model tougness 3
1 model toughness 5

Which means all models will act as toughness 6. 2 shadowsun drones would be t6 with 3+ invulnerable, than 1 regular shield drone that you can take from the missle drones to maintain majority toughness.

I will have to look see if a jetbike can't join infantry. If that is correct than he will not be able to do so. I do doubt this is the case, or rather hope not since a khorne herald on juggernaught would be very limited on what he can join.

[DarkLink]

Is the Riptide an MC? If yes, only MC independent characters can join it (there are none).

The rules are super simple about this point. Independent characters can join units of their type. Infantry can't join jetpacks, jetpacks can't join jetbikes, and only MC can join MCs.

Otherwise, nothing would stop my Farseer from teaming up with the Avatar and taking down their whole army.

ICs can join single model units, provided they are of the same type. If you want, you can have all you ICs joining a non-IC single model unit.

I don't think there is anything about this statement that is actually correct.

[chicop76]

I don't think there is anything about this statement that is actually correct.

So you saying my Khorne Herald on Juggernaught can join bloodletters and fleshhounds, or Karnack can join bloodcrushers.

Apollo says I can't do so. :(.

Man that sucks not jetpack IC will not be able to join bikes. My bike priest can't join assault marines. Shadowsun can't join firewarriors.

Nurgle Bike lord can't join Plague Marines.

Man that is soo limiting.

[DarkLink]

Seriously, though, he basically makes two claims. 1) ICs can only join units of a similar type, and 2) ICs can join single model units if they're the same type. The first restriction does not exist, and the second is one of the only restrictions on what ICs can join that actually does exist. Someone didn't read the rules.

[chicop76]

Seriously, though, he basically makes two claims. 1) ICs can only join units of a similar type, and 2) ICs can join single model units if they're the same type. The first restriction does not exist, and the second is one of the only restrictions on what ICs can join that actually does exist. Someone didn't read the rules.

Whew. Thought I had to change a lot of list there. I was freaking out. Too bad a ripped up and threw away two list already.

I guess I can pull out the three carnifex with prime list again with endurance. Put the prime out front and use look out sir rolls to allocate to the 3 carnifexes and than have endurance heal them. Glad this is all cleared up. Can't wait to use that again.

[Magpie]

Too bad a ripped up and threw away two list already.

Just a tip ? Have a read of your book and convince yourself that what someone has posted is at least vaguely true in some respect before binning your latest list of Doom.


"I don't think there is anything about this statement that is actually correct."

Is 100% correct.

[chicop76]

Just a tip ? Have a read of your book and convince yourself that what someone has posted is at least vaguely true in some respect before binning your latest list of Doom.



Is 100% correct.

It's called sarcasm! Lol!