WMD's in the 40K universe

[Aldramelech]

Ive read a few SM novels and Ive just started on the "Gaunt" ones. What I keep asking myself is why there seems to be so little in the way of orbital bombardment. In the opening pages of the founding a WW1 situation is happening and has been for six months. The Guard are in their trenches and the traitors are in theirs, the planet (a forgeworld) seems to be completely wrecked with all the factories empty burnt out shells. Why don't they just Nuke the place from orbit? A sure way to break a strong defense is the limited use of "Tactical Nukes". Now I know the SM's have some kind of virus bomb that can kill an entire planet, but does the Imperial Navy have something similar? Are nuclear weapons available in the 40K universe?

In the Space Marine novels there were quite a few times, especially when Nids where involved when I thought "Why don't they just kill the Planet?, its lost anyway".

[jodrell]

The true reason is that it would make games very boring:


Select Army.
Deploy.
Get nuked.
The end.


:p

I suppose if you're looking for a logically consistent reason, you could argue that perhaps orbital bombardment *is* used regularly, but occasionally there are reasons for not using it, such as a particular strategic or tactical objective: an artifact or person that you don't want to destroy, and it's those scenarios that we play with our toy soldiers.

[Cryl]

I might be way off here but I'm sure I remember something about "atomics" being considered to be too nasty to use, wasn't the destruction of Krieg nuclear and considered an affront to the God-Emperor? If true it's weird when you think of what a virus bomb will do to a world and the rather liberal (by our standards) use of biological and chemical weapons on a smaller scale.

I get the impression that the Imperium would rather fight to keep a world than nuke / virus bomb / cyclonic torpedo it out of existence, guardsmen are cheap, the world has a value to the adminstratum / munitorum etc.

Finally in the books there's usually a relic or temple or something similar that justifies the seemingly pointless fight.

[AirHorse]

Yeah what cryl said, guardsmen are cheap, worlds are not. Especially not forge worlds which possibley have stc knowledge and crazy production levels for armaments.

[Aldramelech]

The true reason is that it would make games very boring:


Select Army.
Deploy.
Get nuked.
The end.


:p

I suppose if you're looking for a logically consistent reason, you could argue that perhaps orbital bombardment *is* used regularly, but occasionally there are reasons for not using it, such as a particular strategic or tactical objective: an artifact or person that you don't want to destroy, and it's those scenarios that we play with our toy soldiers.

You misunderstand me. I not advocating this from the game point of view, purely from a fluff perspective.
Although Nuking my regular Ork opponent does have its charms! lol ;)

[Aldramelech]

Just finished Dawn of War 2. The Blood ravens are on a planet (only 3 squads of them!) and the entire planet is covered with Nids. Now they have a couple of thousand civilians with them, but other then that its a total right off. As we know Nids just don't plonk down on a world and live happily ever after, they consume that world until nothing remains. Now 3 squads of SM's doesn't sound like a fair trade for a couple of thousand bods, surely thats the time to return to the strike cruiser and push the big red button? And yet they don't. In fact they don't do it before they leave anyway! why?

This Forge World in the first Gaunt novel seems pretty much a right off too. Totally overrun with Traitors, the manufactorums destroyed, the techpreists dead. Time to reach for that button again........

[eldargal]

I think the reason you see chemical and biological warfare vs overwhelming orbital bombardments is practicality. You can unleash biological or chemical weapons on and area and the infrastructure will survive, whereas opening up with nukes will destroy it all far more than even conventional bombardments. The Imperium may be a tad wasteful in how it deploys resources, but it doesn't seem to like destroying resources. Cities can be rebuilt and settlers brought in from other overpopulated planets, but not if the place is irradiated.

[Aldramelech]

How about conventional orbital bombardment? They don't appear to make use of that either.

[AirHorse]

Cant remember where i read it but conventional bombardment does require a starship to enter a lower orbit though, which would also make the ships more vulnerable to fire from the ground and lets face it the ships are pretty valuable. Obviously this doesnt account for every situation but it does make sense.

[Grotzooka]

Don't forget that a bombardment of any kind is NEVER as powerful as one might think it is. If I had a dollar for every historic battle I've read about in which the navy promised to "wipe the enemy off the beaches" and then bombarded it for hours and failed to do diddly, I'd at least have enough for a blister pack. There is always somewhere you can hide, even from uber nukes from space.
Fluff examples include Armor of Contempt, where the one strongpoint gets blasted from space and the Guard still have to slog through it mopping up cultists, and Isstvan III, where plenty of Marines live through being virus bombed AND firestormed.

[Aldramelech]

Don't forget that a bombardment of any kind is NEVER as powerful as one might think it is. If I had a dollar for every historic battle I've read about in which the navy promised to "wipe the enemy off the beaches" and then bombarded it for hours and failed to do diddly, I'd at least have enough for a blister pack. There is always somewhere you can hide, even from uber nukes from space.
Fluff examples include Armor of Contempt, where the one strongpoint gets blasted from space and the Guard still have to slog through it mopping up cultists, and Isstvan III, where plenty of Marines live through being virus bombed AND firestormed.

A good point. Artillery has always been rather overrated throughout history, WW1 being the prime example, and the Russian bombardment of the Seelow heights during the Battle for Berlin was just comical.

But orbital bombardment should in theory be much more effective. Look at the fuss the Russians make every time America even thinks about FOB systems.

[Lord Azaghul]

Part of the way I've understood things is that bombarding a planet isn't used terribly often as least from a purging aspect. In Dawn of War1 'Exterminatus' is mentioned: and it seems like a rarely used tactic, reserved only for the worst of heratics. I think it would still take alot of fire power/resources to oblitarate a planet, from a stricly imperial navy perspective.

Standard orbital bombments (as in a Guant Ghost novel) are used to 'soften' targets FOR ground or naval intervention. I'm thinking of the one where Corbec calles a friend up in one of the orbiting ships, and asked to a building containings a pretty nasty looking daemon to be destroyed. Most of the time guard or SM are called in when the target is too valuble just to demolish.

After WMD seems to be scalable thing, in the right context a medusa, maticore or deathstrike could all be consider weapons of mass destruction, as could most of the weaponry on titans.

[Aldramelech]

Standard orbital bombments (as in a Guant Ghost novel) are used to 'soften' targets FOR ground or naval intervention. I'm thinking of the one where Corbec calles a friend up in one of the orbiting ships, and asked to a building containings a pretty nasty looking daemon to be destroyed.

Spoilers!!!!!! I haven't got that far yet! lol

[Lord Azaghul]

Sorry! Its a brief part, and not the major conflict! I also don't remember exactly which book in the omnibus it was in! :p

I just finished reading 'Double Eagle' this weekend if you want to know how that one ends! j/k

[Nabterayl]

I think Grotzooka has the best answer. Remember that the actual scale of BFG weapons does not seem to be that much greater than the scale of 40K/Epic weapons. A single FP of lance fire seems to be about equivalent to on on Strength D weapon, or possibly S10 AP1. Ships have LOTS of them, but ship firepower is not on a totally different scale from ground firepower. Couple this with the inaccuracy of fire from orbit, the long lead times to get a ship on station, and the short time it can REMAIN on station, and orbital bombardment is clearly not some kind of superweapon. More intense than ground bombardment, but only for brief periods of time. The situation seems analogous to (and consciously modeled on) Napoleonic times, where on on single ship of the line holds more artillery than any entire regiment, and some army groups - but artillery that is fundamentally of the same kind, even if it is heavier. Now imagine that the ship of the line can only fire for half any hour before its orbit takes it off station, and you can see how any artillery regiment might be a preferable source of artillery for many applications.

Regarding the use of nukes on "trashed" planets, remember that the Imperium takes the long view of things, and its entire tech base is essentially built on recovering "trashed" tech. A forge world demolished by decades of war is still a treasure trove of reclaimable technology by the Imperium's standards, and even if the planet seems lost, the Imperium won't mind reclaiming it in another campaign two centuries later. Obliterating the resources of on on ruined forge world through nuclear or cyclotronic bombardment doesn't make a lot of sense in light of those two attitudes, I think.

[Aldramelech]

Makes sense........

This is why they use a virus bomb for Exterminartis rather then nukes I guess.

Thats made thing alot clearer for me.

[Aldramelech]

Sorry! Its a brief part, and not the major conflict! I also don't remember exactly which book in the omnibus it was in! :p

I just finished reading 'Double Eagle' this weekend if you want to know how that one ends! j/k

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol

[Melissia]

Now I know the SM's have some kind of virus bomb that can kill an entire planet, but does the Imperial Navy have something similar? Are nuclear weapons available in the 40K universe?

The Space Marines don't have it unless it's given to them, it's just not what they do. esides, in the grand scheme of things, Marines are actually relatively unimportant except in the absolutely most major battles in history-- their actual presence is so tiny that they have little effect on the majority of the Imperium the majority of the time-- so don't think of them when you think of common battles :P

The Inquisition and Navy, however, have plenty of them. For that matter, even just orbital lance strikes can decimate entire continents, rendering them uninhabitable. Never mind the cyclone torpedo, which can turn a planet into an asteroid belt. But that's just the thing... it reduces an otherwise useful planet into uselessness. Even a virus-bombed planet can house people underground. Where they can be productive mining resources that would be lost if the planet was really and truly destroyed.

[Nabterayl]

I don't know about nukes, but according to BFG, battle barges come standard with virus bombs and cyclotronic warheads. And the magna bombs their bombardment cannons fire seem to be better suited to planetary bombardment against even hardened underground structures than the combined broadside weapons batteries of most Navy battleships (this on top of broadside weapons batteries that are already on par with the heaviest Navy battleship broadsides).

I'm not one to wave the space-marines-can-do-ANYTHING flag, but planetary bombardment of all flavors is one of the things they ARE equipped for.

EDIT: where are you getting that about lance strikes, Mel? Everything I've read about them indicates that a) they aren't that much more powerful (if at all) than turbo-lasers or defense lasers and b) they're precision weapons. Not sure how you use a weapon like that to render a continent uninhabitable (except maybe by cracking the crust in many places over a series of passes), but I'm sure you have your sources ... cough up :p

[Aldramelech]

I have to agree with Nabterayl there. I admit my reading on the subject is limited but in the Blood Ravens omnibus Gabriel performs not one but two Exterminartes completely on his own authority from the Litany of Fury. I also understand that Lance batteries are precision anti ship weapons? Also is there not a problem with laser energy dissipating in the ionosphere if fired from orbit? I sure that was one of the major problems with SDI.

How does the cyclone torpedo work? not come across them yet.

[Denzark]

"I say we take off, and nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure...."

[Aldramelech]

Get me out there? with all those things running around, you can count me out!

Sometimes I think my entire guard army is made up of Private Hudson's...........:rolleyes:

[Nabterayl]

I have to agree with Nabterayl there. I admit my reading on the subject is limited but in the Blood Ravens omnibus Gabriel performs not one but two Exterminartes completely on his own authority from the Litany of Fury. I also understand that Lance batteries are precision anti ship weapons? Also is there not a problem with laser energy dissipating in the ionosphere if fired from orbit? I sure that was one of the major problems with SDI.

How does the cyclone torpedo work? not come across them yet.
Did you just ask if there are atmospheric dissipation problems in a universe that has lasguns? :p

"Lance weapons" covers any large starship-mounted beam weapons. They aren't necessarily lasers (e.g., Tau lance weapons are ion cannons), but Imperial lance weapons typically are. They're also often compound beam weapons, a la the Death Star's superlaser (and if the thought of orbit-to-surface lasers gives you fits, I recommend you not think about compound lasers too hard ;)) Rogue Trader describes them as


Rare and potent weapons that fire incredibly high-powered beams of energy capable of burning through the hull of a warship, or cutting a smaller vessel in half. Unlike macrobatteries, lances are often mounted on gigantic turrets where multiple energy projectors focus to create a single, titanic beam.

BFG describes them as


incredibly high-powered energy weapons that are capable of burning straight through an armored hull or cutting an escort ship in two. ... On Imperial and Chaos ships, lances are usually mounted in huge turrets with quad or triple energy projectors that focus into a concentrated beam of destruction.

In all cases, lance weapons have the game mechanic effect of ignoring the target ship's armor (similar to the Lance special rule in 40K). They are "precision" weapons in that they fire a single beam with which you must physically intersect the target, as opposed to macrobatteries/weapon batteries, which (and don't think about this too hard either) saturate a volume of space with a large number of projectiles.

In 40K terms, the orbital bombardment that a chapter master can call down is almost certainly a single shot from a lance turret, as are the Planetstrike Laserburn stratagem and the Apocalypse defence laser. So if you want, you could say that lance turrets fire 10" Strength D shots, which are downgraded by the atmosphere to 5" or D3 S10 AP1 shots, which actually is quite a bit of attenuation, I suppose.

As for how cyclotronic warheads work, we don't really know. As far as I know their actual mechanism is never described. The effect they have, however, is to crack a planet apart. Obviously you don't actually need to turn a planet into an asteroid field to render it uninhabitable - just cracking the crust in enough places will have plenty of life-ending side effects - but in theory I suppose sustained cyclotronic bombardment could do that.

[The AKH]

I've had the impression that cyclonic torpedoes were vortex weapons - basically planetary-scale versions of a Vortex Grenade or the Vortex Support Missile that Warlord Titans can mount. Basically, they scour the planet's surface through controlled, massive bursts of warp energy.

That's mostly speculation on my part; as a few people have said already, the official fluff on cyclonic torpedoes is pretty hazy.

[Melissia]

EDIT: where are you getting that about lance strikes, Mel? Everything I've read about them indicates that a) they aren't that much more powerful (if at all) than turbo-lasers or defense lasers and b) they're precision weapons. Not sure how you use a weapon like that to render a continent uninhabitable (except maybe by cracking the crust in many places over a series of passes), but I'm sure you have your sources ... cough up :p
One of the Ciaphas Cain Books mentions a lance strike bombardment literally cracking the crust and rendering a planet unlivable for a couple generations.

[Aldramelech]

Got a little further into "The Founding" and it does mention an orbital strike against rebel artillery positions, which doesn't work very well due to the sneaky blighter's moving the guns prior to bombardment. Doesn't say what they use for it though.
Guess the Imperial Navy need some real time Predator support! lol

Did you just ask if there are atmospheric dissipation problems in a universe that has lasguns?

Derrr my brain hurts! lol

[Nabterayl]

Epic offers us another perspective, which is useful for comparison because it allows orbital bombardment and ground-based artillery in the same game, on the same scale. A space marine battle barge in Epic can use its bombardment cannon and macrobatteries to effect an orbital bombardment with the following properties:
In-game strength of 14 Barrage Points - 4+ to destroy an infantry unit, 5+ to destroy a vehicle
Total area of effect approximately 339cm^2 (three 5" blast templates)
Ignores most armor saves (rough 40K equivalent of being AP3, though there's no exact parallel)
Can be used on one game turn and one game turn only, which must be declared at the start of the game
By contrast, 14 Basilisks can effect a regular fire mission with the following properties:
In-game strength of 14 Barrage Points - 4+ to destroy an infantry unit, 5+ to destroy a vehicle
Total area effect of approximately 43cm^2 (three 3" blast templates)
Can be used (potentially) every game turn
In other words, 14 Basilisks can almost equal the firepower of a battle barge, although it would take eight such groups of Basilisks to equal the coverage that the battle barge can achieve. Still, that's only 112 Basilisks, which is about half the strength of a Steel Legion artillery regiment.

Comparing the two options, we see that orbital bombardment can do some things that an artillery regiment cannot - but an artillery regiment can do some things that orbital bombardment cannot. Orbital bombardment is not restricted by range and is not susceptible to counter-battery fire. On the other hand, it is scheduled, predictable, and fleeting (i.e., it's very obvious when a ship is maneuvering for orbital bombardment, and it gets essentially one pass). Ground artillery is restricted by range and is vulnerable to ground and air attack. On the other hand, it's sustainable. You can't really say that one is more devastating than the other - yes, the orbital bombardment gets to ignore armor saves, but then again, an artillery regiment can actually produce a much more intensive bombardment.

And that's trying to equal the orbital bombardment capacity of a battle barge, the Imperium's single most capable orbital bombardment vehicle. The same rough equivalency calculation for the much more common strike cruisers yields 40 Basilisks. Running the calculation again for an Emperor class battleship yields a mere 64 Basilisks, and that's for a battleship. For the workhorse Lunar class cruiser the number drops to merely 24 Basilisks (although the cruiser has some additional capabilities due to its lance turrets, which can't really be directly compared to tube artillery).

In other words, while orbital bombardment has its uses, it isn't a god weapon in 40K (well, unless you're effecting Exterminatus or doing something crazy like trying to break the planet's crust). It's just another form of artillery.

[Duke]

As I have said before I was an officer in the US Air Force. During my time there I would Herat many of the same discussions (but insert c-130 gunship for lunar crusier, lol). The problem with air strikes is also their benefit, they can effectivley doestroy large targets withou fear of reproach. However, asking me to take out a squad with a gun ship has a few problems.
1. Friendly fire
2. Possibly Inefficent use of resources
3. Potential loss of the gunship and crew
4. We still have to pull out, whereas infantry can consolidate the posistion.

Even in siuations where you want to glass the area ou still can't be sure everyone is dead, thus you need combined arms... Look how many marines survived horus' virus bomb.

Duke

[Aldramelech]

Ah, walk softly and have a Specter on call lol.

[Nabterayl]

As I have said before I was an officer in the US Air Force. During my time there I would Herat many of the same discussions (but insert c-130 gunship for lunar crusier, lol). The problem with air strikes is also their benefit, they can effectivley doestroy large targets withou fear of reproach. However, asking me to take out a squad with a gun ship has a few problems.
1. Friendly fire
2. Possibly Inefficent use of resources
3. Potential loss of the gunship and crew
4. We still have to pull out, whereas infantry can consolidate the posistion.

Even in siuations where you want to glass the area ou still can't be sure everyone is dead, thus you need combined arms... Look how many marines survived horus' virus bomb.

Duke
Building on this, orbital bombardment is not risk-free. Conventional anti-aircraft fire can't reach a starship in low orbit, but ground-based aircraft can. Also worrisome are planetary defense lasers and surface to orbit missile batteries, which according to BFG and Imperial Armour are oftentimes buried deep underground in hardened silos that can withstand even space marine bombardment cannons (the Apocalypse model is obviously not buried deep underground in a hardened silo, but I imagine the opportunity to build a cool model was just too good to pass up). Just one or two of these sites is enough to keep starships away, judging by the evidence of Imperial Armour 3 and Imperial Armour 5-7.

[Aldramelech]

Okay, hows about NBC Arty shells?

[Melissia]

They DO use those. See the Leman Russ Eradicator.

[Nabterayl]

Imperial Armour 7 also contains examples of Guard regiments (in this case from the Death Korps of Krieg) using chemical weapons, both in artillery and in hand grenades. Chemical artillery was only used in an attempt to contain an enemy breakout that threatened the entire siege line, but poison gas grenades are apparently standard issue for Krieg engineers. We know from the IG codex that Deathstrike missiles can carry biological payloads. The IG codex also mentions the Battle of Baric Six, in which a stolen Deathstrike destroyed two armored companies, a Baneblade, and a hundred orks, which is certainly beyond the scope of the payload we can deploy on the 40K tabletop.

[Duke]

... The IG codex also mentions the Battle of Baric Six, in which a stolen Deathstrike destroyed two armored companies, a Baneblade, and a hundred orks, which is certainly beyond the scope of the payload we can deploy on the 40K tabletop.

Which is too bad, cause that sounds like great fun! lol

Duke

[Aldramelech]

It would be quite cool lol.

You could have a random chart, whenever the Master of Ordnance calls in a strike, roll on the chart to see whats available!

[Duke]

@Aldra: I think I am going to make an Apoc data sheet with that. It will be similar to what you said.

PLEASE HELP WITH DEVELOPMENT!

points:???
Name: Lord General of ordinance.
Fluff: The Lord general of ordinance has the ability to call down any and all firepower that the Imperial guard, Navy and Titan Legions can bring to bear.

Ability:
roll a d6
1-3 - Basilisk battery support: place d3 st9 ap3 large blast templates.
4 - Titan support: place one St D large blast template
5 - Orbital Bombardment place 1 apoc barrage 5 st 10 ap1 template
6 - voice of the God-Emperor (The Lord general calls it all in) place one St D ap1 apoc blast template

Duke

[Lord Azaghul]

@Aldra: I think I am going to make an Apoc data sheet with that. It will be similar to what you said.

PLEASE HELP WITH DEVELOPMENT!

points:???
Name: Lord General of ordinance.
Fluff: The Lord general of ordinance has the ability to call down any and all firepower that the Imperial guard, Navy and Titan Legions can bring to bear.

Ability:
roll a d6
1-3 - Basilisk battery support: place d3 st9 ap3 large blast templates.
4 - Titan support: place one St D large blast template
5 - Orbital Bombardment place 1 apoc barrage 5 st 10 ap1 template
6 - voice of the God-Emperor (The Lord general calls it all in) place one St D ap1 apoc blast template

Duke


I love this concept.
I would have to 1-3 roll to a full d6+1. After if this guy can call down apoc barrages I'd give the average roll a little more uummph!

I would require him to take a retinue, like the current guard CCS. And Possibly the option to take a transport.
Given his options I would start him at 300pts. Then all the cost for upgrades.
Give him some "field surveyor" rules, stating that he can not move the turn he wishes to fire. And/OR a rule that allows ALL Indirect fire in the army to use his BS when firing, ie you'd subtract his BS from the scatter, even if the unit does not have LOS.

[Aldramelech]

Part of his retinue could be Forward Observer Servitors. He could send them out to designate targets for the on table arty whilst he concentrates on the off table stuff. Or another possibility is to give him his own set of orders he could issue like other officers.

Stuff like Time on target, Precision strike (Copperhead) or Broken Arrow.

[Duke]

points:400
Name: Lord General of ordinance.
Fluff: The Lord general of ordinance has the ability to call down any and all firepower that the Imperial guard, Navy and Titan Legions can bring to bear.

Ability:
roll a d6
1-3 - Basilisk battery support: place d6 st9 ap3 large blast templates.
4 - Titan support: place one St D large blast template
5 - Orbital Bombardment place 1 apoc barrage 5 st 10 ap1 template
6 - voice of the God-Emperor (The Lord general calls it all in) place one St D ap1 apoc blast template

Orders:
- Paint the target: The Lord general may order a single veteran/ storm trooper/ or command squad within 12" or with a vox caster to do nothing this turn if he does this then he may reroll scatter this turn only. the stirke called in from the Lord general (I put the specific units because I wanted to make it a sacrifice, and it isn't something he would leave to a lowly conscripts squad...these guys need to be good under fire as the paint it.)

- Broken arrow: You may not roll on the ability chart if this order is used. The Lord General calls down a high risk strike on a friendly posistion. Place an apoc 5 st10 ap1 bombardment within 6" of a friendly unit, scatter as usual. "Sometimes one must lose a goldfish to kill a shark"

[Aldramelech]

Yep, that looks good. Broken Arrow could be fun! lol

[Duke]

I was just wondering if "broken arrow," should ignore cover...

Duke

[Nabterayl]

You know, I really like this idea, but the fluff seems a little off to me. Naval and titan detachments have their own representative, co-equal with the Guard's, at the supreme command level for any given campaign. There is no officer who has authority over all three (well, except for the supreme commander of the campaign, who is rarely even present in the same system). If nothing else, I think this warrants changing the fluff a bit - the most you're ever going to get is an officer that the Navy and titan legions have agreed should coordinate their support.

Also, I'm not sure it makes sense to have titan support be one of the options. Titan detachments are pretty rare. Even Vraks didn't get any titan support for something like ten years, and that was a campaign to recapture a strategically important munitions world. I'd suggest paring this back to Guard and Naval artillery, since it makes sense that those would be present in any given Apocalypse game.

Fluff-wise, I think we should also question the profile of the orbital bombardment. After all, Apocalypse already has an orbital bombardment strategic asset, and its profile is S8 AP3 Apocalyptic Barrage(4).

This would be a relatively radical departure from the current build, but what if we gave him the ability to call in either D6 S9 AP3 large blast templates (Basilisk support) or D3 S10 AP1 large blast templates (lance strike), and gave him the Scheduled Bombardment and Orbital Bombardment strategic assets, instead of rolling on the current table?

Also, and I'm just throwing this out there, what about Deathstrike support, with some of the more exotic payloads - poisoned gas, extra-large blast radius, that sort of thing? Or do we want to keep them out on the rationale that Deathstrike missiles fall under the titan category of "so rare that you don't necessarily even have one per army?"

[Lord Azaghul]

Also, and I'm just throwing this out there, what about Deathstrike support, with some of the more exotic payloads - poisoned gas, extra-large blast radius, that sort of thing? Or do we want to keep them out on the rationale that Deathstrike missiles fall under the titan category of "so rare that you don't necessarily even have one per army?"


OHHH - I didn't even think of that one! You could just swap out the titan for the death strike!

[Aldramelech]

Agreed. Its a bit more fluffy.........

Broken Arrow: No Cover save? mmmm The Trouble with this is that we are going to have to rain in our enthusiasm abit at some point lol

[Nabterayl]

Agreed. Its a bit more fluffy.........

Broken Arrow: No Cover save? mmmm
I would just make all of these things Barrage weapons and leave it at that. It's always bugged me that you can get a cover save from artillery in the woods (seeing as the woods is the last place you want to be taking artillery fire in), but that's a convention of the game. I'd just make all the attacks Barrage Ordnance weapons and leave it at that.


The Trouble with this is that we are going to have to rain in our enthusiasm abit at some point lol
Heh ... man, I've been thinking all day of whether or not this should be split between Guard (Basilisks, different Deathrain payloads) and Navy (macrobatteries, lance strikes) datasheets.

[Duke]

@ NAB: Always appreciate your input... youve noticed a few holes in my sheet
1. Im not a guard player, so my fluff is a bit weaker in that area. I would like to have this be one officer... But Im not sure of what to call him, I know I could just make him an inquisitor and solve it all though.

2. Your right the orbital bombardment already exists, and I knew that but I forgot the stats for it.

3. As for giving him the assets, I almost like it more that this is random... I almost wanted a "doomsday device," feel to it...

SO....

points:400
Name: Ordinance high Command (OHC)
Unit: ??? ideas???
Fluff: The Ordinance high Command has the ability to call down any and all firepower that the Imperial guard, Navy and Titan Legions can bring to bear.
assets: Scheduled bombardment.

Ability:
roll a d6
1-3 - Basilisk battery support: place d6 st9 ap3 large blast templates.
4 - Death strike support: place one St D large blast template
5 - Lance stirke place 1 st 10 AP1 Apoc barrage (3) template
6 - voice of the God-Emperor (The Lord general calls it all in) place one St D ap1 apoc blast template

Orders:
- Paint the target: The High command may order a single veteran/ storm trooper/ or command squad within 12" or with a vox caster to do nothing this turn if he does this then he may reroll scatter this turn only for stirkes called in from the Ordinance High Command (I put the specific units because I wanted to make it a sacrifice, and it isn't something he would leave to a lowly conscripts squad...these guys need to be good under fire as the paint it.)

- Broken arrow: You may not roll on the ability chart if this order is used. The OHC calls down a high risk strike on a friendly posistion. Place a st8 ap3 spoc barrage(4) template within 6" of a friendly unit, scatter as usual. "Sometimes one must lose a goldfish to kill a shark"


Changes:
- swapped titan support for Death Strike support.
- Changed "Orbital Bombardment," Lance strike, increased St and AP, lowered barrage amount I did this to differentiate the wepons being used in the lance strike vs. orbital bombard cannons. (I could change this to d3 st10 ap1 large blasts instead of barrage 3, ideas?
- Changed Broken arrow to reflect the orbital bombardment strategic asset. should it also ignore cover?
- Gave him scheduled bombardment.


CC welcome
Duke

[Aldramelech]

It's always bugged me that you can get a cover save from artillery in the woods (seeing as the woods is the last place you want to be taking artillery fire in)

Agree with you there Nab, Not nice at all. So yeah, No cover saves.

Duke,

Unit: He'll need a vox operator at least. I don't know why but I think Servitors should be involved with this, It feels right, just not sure in what role. Some kind of Illumination/Designator team. Servo Skulls? Mortar squad that fires thermal smoke?

This is quite an exciting concept, the possibilities are endless............

[Nabterayl]

You know, one way to do this would be to make an Officer of the Fleet be a compulsory part of his retinue. That way, fluff-wise, you've got a good link to both the Guard's and the Navy's artillery.

I'd suggest moving the Deathstrike up to a 7" blast. I know that's a straight upgrade in power, which from a points/making-this-guy-practical standpoint we don't necessarily want to do, but it feels weird to me to have a Strength D Deathstrike warhead be potentially smaller in effect than the S10 AP1 one. Am I the only one who feels that way?

I would not make Broken Arrow ignore cover. The corresponding strategic asset doesn't, either, and I think they should be the same, since fluff-wise, they are the same. By the same theory I think Broken Arrow should be Ordnance, and Pinning.

Name-wise ... the overall commander of the Guard part of an invasion force is oftentimes called a Lord Marshal (as opposed to the Lord High Commander, who is in overall command of the entire invasion force). So what about Marshal of the Ordnance?

Unit-wise ... the best fluff explanation I can think of for the combined-arms approach is to have an Officer of the Fleet be a compulsory part of this guy's command squad. And actually, giving him a command squad (perhaps we should increase the cost accordingly) seems perfectly fluffy to me. I'd suggest that they have the option of being mounted in a Chimera. For fun, you might also give them the option of being mounted on horses (which would do nothing but change their unit type to cavalry, since rough rider horses don't contribute any extra Toughness or Wounds) - not as practical as a Chimera, but a damn fun modeling possibility, and perfectly fluffy for some, I'm sure. Just make that upgrade cheap, since it does very little (though it does allow him to shift position more quickly for Paint the Target purposes).

[Aldramelech]

Some type of modified Salamder (Command version) rather then Chimera?

[Nabterayl]

Hmmm ... you know, fluff-wise that makes sense to me. Perhaps say that you can swap out the entire command squad for a special Salamander Command that has all the command squad's normal properties?

[Duke]

Ok here goes (thanks for all the input)

points: 250+ Models
Name: Marshal of the ordinance
Unit: Command Squad (must include one master of the fleet and one master of the ordinance and an officer.)
Unit options:
The marshal of the Ordinance and his unit may be mounted in a Chimera (see codex Imperial Guard) or they may be mounted on horseback for +5 points per model.
Fluff: The Marshal of the Ordinance has the ability to call down any and all firepower that the Imperial guard, Navy and Titan Legions can bring to bear.

assets: Scheduled bombardment.

Ability:
roll a d6
1-3 - Basilisk battery support: place d6 st9 ap3 large blast templates.
4 - Death strike support: place one St D 7" blast template
5 - Lance stirke place 1 st 10 AP1 Apoc barrage (3) template
6 - voice of the God-Emperor (The Marshall calls it all in) place one St D ap1 apoc blast template

Orders:
- Paint the target: The Marshal may order a single veteran/ storm trooper/ or command squad within 12" to do nothing this turn if he does this then he may reroll scatter this turn only for stirkes called in from the Ordinance High Command (I put the specific units because I wanted to make it a sacrifice, and it isn't something he would leave to a lowly conscripts squad...these guys need to be good under fire as the paint it.)

- Broken arrow: You may not roll on the ability chart if this order is used. The OHC calls down a high risk strike on a friendly posistion. Place a st8 ap3 spoc barrage(4) template within 6" of a friendly unit, scatter as usual. "Sometimes one must lose a goldfish to kill a shark"


Changes:
-Name "Marshal of the Ordinance"
-unit requirements (HQ + Master of the Ord. and Master of the Fleet
- took out vox caster for paint the target
- lowered points cost to 250 to reflect the fact that he is "squishy,"

Duke

[Nabterayl]

That's "Marshal of the Ordnance" unless this guy is flinging law codes around ;)

I wonder if 5 points per horse is a bit much. That's 35 points, right? Effectively all it does is give the unit Fleet, which for a decidedly non-assault unit isn't much of an advantage. In fact, you know, maybe that option isn't worth including at all. I still think it'd look cool model-wise but I'm not sure I'd pay even +1 point per model for it in an actual game.

I'd specify that Broken Arrow is Ordnance and Pinning. The Apocalypse orbital bombardment profile is S8 AP3 Apocalyptic Barrage(4) Ordnance Pinning, and it seems to me that Broken Arrow ought to be the same.

EDIT: It just occurred to me that the rules for template placement prohibit you from placing any kind of template so that it will touch a friendly model, before scatter. Perhaps Broken Arrow should explicitly allow you to place the template in such a way that friendly models are under the template. It's in the spirit of the ability, and otherwise, the placement restrictions will be very severe.

EDIT 2: Do we want to include the Master of the Ordnance? Does that mean that he gets to fire his single Basilisk shot in addition to the Marshal's abilities?

As an alternative, we could have the command squad's company commander count as the Marshal of the Ordnance, who is himself an Imperial Guard officer and in charge of the army's artillery assets. Joining him would be a Navy liaison who helps him coordinate the invasion force's total artillery assets. Or we could flip it around - say the Marshal of the Ordnance is a Navy officer, and he has a Master of the Ordnance as his liaison.

[Aldramelech]

That makes sense, In the UK forces FAC's are RAF Officers attached to ground forces, and they handle calls for Arty fire's too. Still think a Salamander would be better then a Chimera. Just a question: With broken arrow, who is he issuing the order to? Himself? or the squad thats nearest to the template?

[Nabterayl]

Double post

[Nabterayl]

Perhaps allow two versions, then - one with an Officer of the Fleet (Marshal is a Guardsman), which gives the OotF's Reserves-interfering ability as normal, and one with a Master of the Ordnance (Marshal is a Naval officer), which gives the MotO's extra Basilisk strike as normal.

Is Broken Arrow an order? I thought it was an alternative to rolling on the ability table.

Agree about the Salamander Command, just because Chimeras don't seem to be used as transports above company level all that often. Mechanically, that gives the squad a weaker vehicle, but interferes with infiltrators setting up near the squad. That actually seems like a good fluff tradeoff to me. One question, though - if the Salamander was used, would it just replace the whole squad, or be a weird sort of transport (with, like, a six-man capacity, or perhaps an abbreviated command squad)? Would the squad be allowed to disembark, and if so, would it be allowed to carry other units (preliminarily, I vote small transport - fluff-wise, when an officer uses a Salamander as his personal transport, it's him and three other members of his staff, so we could let the command squad consist of only two veterans, plus the mandatory advisor - no, and no)?

[Duke]

points: 250+ Models
Name: Marshal of the ordnance
Unit: Command Squad (may include one master of the fleet or one master of the ordnance but not both, though both MotF and MotO should be represented in the models. )
Unit options:
The marshal of the Ordnance and his unit may be mounted in a Chimera (see codex Imperial Guard) or they may be mounted on horseback for no additional cost.
Fluff: The Marshal of the Ordnance has the ability to call down any and all firepower that the Imperial guard, Navy and Titan Legions can bring to bear.

assets: Scheduled bombardment.

Ability:
roll a d6
1-3 - Basilisk battery support: place d6 st9 ap3 large blast templates.
4 - Death strike support: place one St D 7" blast template
5 - Lance stirke place 1 st 10 AP1 Apoc barrage (3) template
6 - voice of the God-Emperor (The Marshall calls it all in) place one St D ap1 apoc blast template

- Broken arrow: You may not roll on the ability chart if this order is used. The OHC calls down a high risk strike on a friendly posistion. Place a st8 ap3 spoc barrage(4) ordnance, pinning template within 6" of a friendly unit the tmeplate may be placed on friendly models or models in close combat. scatter as usual. "Sometimes one must lose a goldfish to kill a shark"

- Make it rubble: you may not roll on the ability chart, the Marshal calls down enough firepower to take out a single piece of terrain. Place a large blast tmeplate, roll for scatter if the center hole is on the terrain piece then replace the terrain with rubble. Any models under the tmeplate take a st 8 AP 3 ordnance pinning hit.

Orders:
- Paint the target: The Marshal may order a single veteran/ storm trooper/ or command squad within 12" to do nothing this turn if he does this then he may reroll scatter this turn only for stirkes called in from the Ordinance High Command (I put the specific units because I wanted to make it a sacrifice, and it isn't something he would leave to a lowly conscripts squad...these guys need to be good under fire as the paint it.)



Changes-
- Broken arrow may be placed on a friendly unit or models in close combat.
- Horseback option lowered to "free"
- either one master of the fleet or one master of Ordnance
- Changed spelling to reflect the fact that he is working with Munitions, not the Municipality... lol
- put ordnance and pinning in "broken arrow profile,"
- Added a new ability "Make it rubble,"

Questions:
- I don't know much about a salamander, and I don't have the IG codex... so Ill add it if you want it, just tell me what you would like to see e.g. points, options, etc.

- Broken arrow is not an order, I changed its posistion to reflect that. though it might make sense that it could be an order that he makes on his own squad...

Input always welcome.

Duke

[Nabterayl]

The complete Salamander Command rules can be found at Forgeworld's website here (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/pdf/IA1update28AUG.pdf).

Fluff-wise, the Salamander is yet another Chimera variant, which is used as a tracked scout vehicle to complement Sentinels (Sentinels handle rough terrain better; Salamanders are faster and more heavily armored). According to the various TOs we have in the Imperial Armour books, the command variant is used as a transport for commanders above company level (company commanders, if they use a transport, seem more prone to use Chimeras) - at least, I'm not aware of any TO in which a Chimera is used to transport an officer above company level. It's for this reason that Aldramech and I were suggesting that a Salamander Command would be a fluffier option than a Chimera.

As you can see from the above PDF, the Salamander Command is not a transport. This raises a question for us: does the Salamander Command replace the command squad (but with a special rule allowing it to use all of the command squad's various abilities, such as Broken Arrow, the Master of the Ordnance/Officer of the Fleet abilities, the Marshal of the Ordnance ability table, etc.)? Or do we allow the Salamander Command to transport a special four-man command squad?

After thinking about it some more, I'm inclined to just replace the command squad with the Salamander Command vehicle, if we want to drop the Chimera option.

[Duke]

I like that option... now it all makes so much more sense.

here is the update with the Salamander

points: 250+ Models
Name: Marshal of the ordnance
Unit: Command Squad (may include one master of the fleet or one master of the ordnance but not both, though both MotF and MotO should be represented in the models. )
Unit options:
The marshal of the Ordnance and his unit may be mounted in a Salamander (+55pts)* or they may be mounted on horseback for no additional cost.
Fluff: The Marshal of the Ordnance has the ability to call down any and all firepower that the Imperial guard, Navy and Titan Legions can bring to bear.

* If a salamander is taken then it replaces the command squad, the models may not disembark and are destroyed with the vehicle. Rules for the Salamander can be found at the Forgeworld website IA1 update 28 AUG.


assets: Scheduled bombardment.

Ability:
roll a d6
1-3 - Basilisk battery support: place d6 st9 ap3 large blast templates.
4 - Death strike support: place one St D 7" blast template
5 - Lance stirke place 1 st 10 AP1 Apoc barrage (3) template
6 - voice of the God-Emperor (The Marshall calls it all in) place one St D ap1 apoc blast template

- Broken arrow: You may not roll on the ability chart if this order is used. The OHC calls down a high risk strike on a friendly posistion. Place a st8 ap3 spoc barrage(4) ordnance, pinning template within 6" of a friendly unit the tmeplate may be placed on friendly models or models in close combat. scatter as usual. "Sometimes one must lose a goldfish to kill a shark"

- Make it rubble: you may not roll on the ability chart, the Marshal calls down enough firepower to take out a single piece of terrain. Place a large blast tmeplate, roll for scatter if the center hole is on the terrain piece then replace the terrain with rubble (difficult terrain). Any models under the tmeplate take a st 8 AP 3 ordnance pinning hit.

Orders:
- Paint the target: The Marshal may order a single veteran/ storm trooper/ or command squad within 12" to do nothing this turn if he does this then he may reroll scatter this turn only for stirkes called in from the Marshall(I put the specific units because I wanted to make it a sacrifice, and it isn't something he would leave to a lowly conscripts squad...these guys need to be good under fire as they 'paint it'.)


Changes:
-Replaced Chimera with Salamander.

Questions:
- What does everyone think of "make it Rubble,"?

Duke

[Nabterayl]

You might want to lose the OHC abbreviation in Broken Arrow, as it no longer makes much sense.

Make it Rubble works for me in concept. A couple of suggestions:

I would specify that we're talking about natural terrain here. Technically a bastion, bunker, fortress, or other defensive building is also "terrain." I'd feel pretty peeved if my AV14/14/14 bastion, which could theoretically withstand several Destroyer hits, was just wiped off the map by the Marshal's hand-waving! I don't think that's the intention, anyway.

Another thing that seems weird to me about Make it Rubble is that only models under the template are hit. Since we're potentially talking about leveling a much larger piece of terrain, that seems a little weird to me. My instinct is that all models in or on the terrain should take the hit.

This raises the question of using Make it Rubble to snipe at models in cover - since the terrain is a much larger target than the models, you might just target the terrain instead. That doesn't really seem like the spirit of the ability to me - it's about re-shaping the battlefield, not making orbital bombardment magically more accurate :p

Anybody have ideas about how to mitigate this effect? Just leave it as is (since this way comparatively few models will be hit)? Decrease the strength of the hit? Give the models hit a 3+ cover save?

[Duke]

@ nab: one thing I love about you is that you will often provide a point/ suggestion and then counter the suggestion within the same post which usually means no change. It makes reading your posts great fun.

I tried to replace all the OHC with "marshall," thanks for the catch.


points: 250+ Models
Name: Marshal of the ordnance
Unit: Command Squad (may include one master of the fleet or one master of the ordnance but not both, though both MotF and MotO should be represented in the models. )
Unit options:
The marshal of the Ordnance and his unit may be mounted in a Salamander (+55pts)* or they may be mounted on horseback for no additional cost.
Fluff: The Marshal of the Ordnance has the ability to call down any and all firepower that the Imperial guard, Navy and Titan Legions can bring to bear.

* If a salamander is taken then it replaces the command squad, the models may not disembark and are destroyed with the vehicle. Rules for the Salamander can be found at the Forgeworld website IA1 update 28 AUG.


assets: Scheduled bombardment.

Ability:
roll a d6
1-3 - Basilisk battery support: place d6 st9 ap3 large blast templates.
4 - Death strike support: place one St D 7" blast template
5 - Lance stirke place 1 st 10 AP1 Apoc barrage (3) template
6 - voice of the God-Emperor (The Marshall calls it all in) place one St D ap1 apoc blast template

- Broken arrow: You may not roll on the ability chart if this order is used. The Marshall calls down a high risk strike on a friendly posistion. Place a st8 ap3 spoc barrage(4) ordnance, pinning template within 6" of a friendly unit the tmeplate may be placed on friendly models or models in close combat. scatter as usual. "Sometimes one must lose a goldfish to kill a shark"

- Make it rubble: you may not roll on the ability chart, the Marshal calls down enough firepower to take out a single piece of terrain*. Place a large blast tmeplate, roll for scatter if the center hole is on the terrain piece then replace the terrain with rubble (difficult terrain). Any models under the tmeplate take a st 8 AP 3ordnance pinning hit, models receive a 3+ cover save from this attack. (its meant to kill terrain, not models.)

* Does not apply to terrain pieces with armour values (i.e. Bastion, skyshield landing pad, etc.)

Orders:
- Paint the target: The Marshal may order a single veteran/ storm trooper/ or command squad within 12" to do nothing this turn if he does this then he may reroll scatter this turn only for stirkes called in from the Marshall(I put the specific units because I wanted to make it a sacrifice, and it isn't something he would leave to a lowly conscripts squad...these guys need to be good under fire as they 'paint it'.)

changes:
- Made "make it rubble," grant a 3+ cover save, this is to represent that the intent is to destroy the building, not the people. I know it doesn't make much sense in real world application, but in game it does.

- Specified that "make it rubble," cannot be used to target terrain with an AV.

[Nabterayl]

One more question - can the Salamander Command, or for that matter the officer in the command squad, issue orders like a company commander can? Not really sure how I feel about this one either way, fluff-wise.

[Duke]

I haven't really thought about it... Lets do the point and counter point.

Point: He is an officer after all and should be able to issue any and all orders per usual, this would also provide the benefit of making him choose between the standard orders and his 'special order.'

Counter: Though he is an officer, he isn't concerned with squad level actions like "First rank, second rank." As such the only orders he would give would only be applicable to his detatchment.


thoughts?

Duke

[Nabterayl]

Point: the IG codex has regimental- and higher-level commanders issuing orders when they are on the front line (e.g., Chenkov, Straken, Creed).

Counter-Point: The Marshal could in theory be a Navy officer, who hopefully would have the sense not to issue orders (especially tactical orders) to individual squads of Guardsmen.

[Aldramelech]

Slow down, Ive just got back from a days casual work! lol

Commissars are also "Officers" but don't get to issue orders, so no problems there.

Happy with all the rest, shaping up nicely.....

[Duke]

Slow down, Ive just got back from a days casual work! lol

Commissars are also "Officers" but don't get to issue orders, so no problems there.

Happy with all the rest, shaping up nicely.....

Lol, sorry aldra

now that we are all here then...

Point: since he is still an officer he could still issue orders, though he may be wise enough to just focus on his duties it doesn't mean he can't issue orders at all. This seems to be the logical conclusion
counter-point: he "might" be a navy officer and he "might" not concern himself about tactical level actions. This seems like the least logical conclusion.

I lean toward Not accepting the counter point, it seems less likely and much less consistent between marshalls... Comments?

Duke

[Nabterayl]

Er ... meaning that you're leaning towards the Marshal being able to give orders or not give orders? I didn't understand you.

[Aldramelech]

One way to look at it is that the Regimental Advisor's don't issue orders because they form a part of the COY Command squad. But this guy is a Command Squad in his own right so it could be logical to let him do so. Another option is to rip up everything we've done so far and "create" a Regimental Command Squad with a whole new set of advisor's and rules, the Marshal forming part of that squad.

[Duke]

Er ... meaning that you're leaning towards the Marshal being able to give orders or not give orders? I didn't understand you.

I was leaning towards allowing him to issue orders... Sorry about the confusion I posted that last one from my phone.

@ Aldra... Though I almost loathe the idea of tearing it all up, I like the idea of "regimental command," hmmmm

Duke

[Nabterayl]

I have no objection to him issuing orders. Time to bust this dude out and see how he does!

Re: the regimental command, I wonder if that's really necessary. After all, isn't it already covered by stratagems such as the Supreme Headquarters?

[Aldramelech]

Lot of work too, but it could be fun :D

You've got COY HQ so the next logical step for Appoc would be REG HQ. The problem then is new rules for:

Regimental Commander
Regimental Command Squad
War gear and Orders for above
Regimental Advisor's, do you use existing ones? or new ones.

The big question is do you need it? Or are you happy with the concept of The Marshal of Ordnance and with him issuing orders. I guess the sensible thing would be to play test the former first.

[Duke]

Ok, lets play test this dude... I was going to make one last suggestions though.

- Make it rubble... perhaps it should remove the terrain completly, is it worth it to take away one 4+ cover only to replace it with another 4+ cover?

Duke

[Lord Azaghul]

Make 2-foot wide craters...

It sounds like it just might be better to leave that rule out.

[AirHorse]

Hmm I read your rules for this guy and I really like the idea, but I feel like hes way too complicated. You really need to simplify him instead of having a massive mishmash of random tables, special orders and strategic assets. I think perhaps you should redo him, taking the best parts from your current template, and make a set of rules that follow a more straight forward structure. I also felt that perhaps you should make him have less powerful attacks so that it doesnt feel like cheating getting to use him each turn(which you should be able to! thats the whole point!).

If I was to write my own version(which i might if I ever get a guard force going :P) I would like to make him alot like a normal IG officer. Something like this:

Models

Marshal of Ordnance
A command squad with the usual guard additions such as commisars, can only take bodyguards as advisors. Must have vox caster!

Special rules

Artillery Command
The Marshal of Ordnance is in overall command of the amassed long range and indirect firepower available to the Imperial forces and as such when he issues orders he does so over the vox network to the different artillery groups.
The Marshal can issue two orders each turn and has access to special orders as long as both him and the vox caster remain on the table. Orders follow all the normal rules, leadership tests are required as normal, with off board artillery groups having a leadership of 8. The Marshal has no command radius for his special orders(as the orders are issued via vox) but may issue normal orders using his standard command radius of 12" as well. You may issue the same special order twice(in effect to two different artillery groups under his command).

Special orders
Bring the Rain
The marshal brings all available long range artillery groups to bear upon the enemy, unleashing a devastating massed bombardment upon the battlefield. The huge volume of shells falls heavily upon the target, though as would be expected with such a volume of shells not all find the mark.
Place one Apocalypse barrage template with the following profile-Str 7 ap3 Apocalypse Barrage(4). In additional d3 Large blast templates are randomly placed within 6+d6" of the centre of the Appocalypse barrage using the following profile-Str 7 ap3 Ordnance Barrage, 5" blast.

Shatter their Defenses
The marshal orders all bunker busting weapons to bring down a vital enemy strongpoint. Such a concentration of heavy breaching firepower can crack open even the greatest of strongholds.
Nominate one Bunker or building terrain piece and place 3+d3 templates centred on the target with the following profile- Str 10 ap1 Ordnance Barrage, 5" blast. Templates scatter as normal and if three or more templates score a hit result then the piece is obliterated, removing it entirely(replace with suitable ruins or craters if available). Any models within a building that is obliterated must take an armour save or be removed.

Let the Heavens Punish the Enemy
The marshal requests for an orbiting battleship to turn its weapons upon the planets surface. Since the enemy are at such close quarters only precision strikes from orbit can be risked, as such the ship brings its lance batteries to bear, tearing apart anything that the deadly beams strike as they sweep the ground.
Place one Hellstorm template with the following profile anywhere on the board- str D ap2. This template will not scatter, but its orientation is determinted by the scatter dice after a start point is determined(the narrow end is the start point). If a hit is rolled then the user may determine its orientation.

Ignite the Battlefield
The marshal orders a massed incendiary missile and rocket strike to drive the enemy from their shelter. As the missiles and rockets strike the target area each weapons payload further fuels the inferno.
Place one blast marker with the following profile- str 6 ap4 Ordnance Barrage, 10" blast, no cover saves allowed. The template will only scatter d6". In addition any leadership tests caused by this attack are at a further -1 due to the intensity of the firestorm(this makes it -2 since it is an ordnance weapon already).

Mark Those Targets!
The marshal issues an order for men on the frontlines to mark his targets for his artillery groups, to help them find their mark more easily. The marshal must pass his order onto the front lines via another officer who is in direct command of the soldiers he needs and as such which squads the orders are given to is at the discretion of an officer fighting in the thick of the battle, one who is often not willing to risk the lives of his men more than he has to.
This order is issued to any imperial guard platoon command squad with a vox caster. If successfully issued to the command squad, that command squad then immediately issues an order itself to one infantry squad within its command radius, and consuming the order for that command squad this turn.

If the order is succesfully issued to the squad then any subsequent bombardment called in by the marshal of ordnance that turn can double the number of templates placed and force any succesful coversaves to be rerolled as long as the templates are placed within line of sight of the selected squad(before scatter). The infantry squad may do nothing else this turn.



Ok so once i got started it turned into a fully blown set of rules since I was having so much fun XD. Im not sure where I would value this guy at, but I think he is an interesting representation of artillery command which would be awesome fun to play with. what do you guys think? :P

[Aldramelech]

There are some great ideas there. The Orders system makes more sense in yours. Not sure about the "Shatter the defenses" order though.

[Aldramelech]

Ok, lets play test this dude... I was going to make one last suggestions though.

- Make it rubble... perhaps it should remove the terrain completly, is it worth it to take away one 4+ cover only to replace it with another 4+ cover?

Duke

Makes sense...

[Duke]

Some interesting ideas... The rules on each order are kind of wordy though. Perhaps you could shorten them up a bit. and repost.

Duke

[AirHorse]

Ill give it a shot later on, but I italic'd the actual rules to make it easier to skip the random fluff blurbs I put in :P. I felt most of the orders were fine for length apart from "mark those targets", but that also had complicated rules. The opening bit about using the orders kind of has to be long too, but ill read through it when im not tired XD

[Duke]

It reads nice, its just when Im playing I want to see the rules quick and fast... Prehaps more seperation between rules and fluff. Or, get rid of the fluff all together and replace it one 'header,' fluff piece...

Duke

[AirHorse]

I changed the italics to bold text and added a bit of spacing, its a billion times easier to read the rules without the fluffy bits getting in your way now. Cant be bothered trying to rewrite "mark those targets!" to be less clunky just now, ill do that another night when im more awake :)

[Duke]

Much easier to read with the bold instead of the italics.

Duke