View Full Version : Imperator! This one is keeping me awake...
Alrik_40000
11-03-2009, 12:25 AM
So I've been into 40k for about a year now - reading fluff, playing Dawn of War , buying a crapton of Marines... etc. I like to think I have a pretty good handle on the background of the universe. I happened to be pondering the painting of my Blood Ravens dreadnought while brushing my teeth tonight, and was struck by a thought....
If he was that damn important and he wasn't quite dead, why didn't they just put the Emperor in a Dreadnought sarcophagus ?
Seems to me like the criteria for dread-hood is to: A - be an Almost Dead Guy, and B - be a Not Quite Dead Guy (meaning mortally wounded but refusing to die). He was obviously alive enough to go on the Throne, so why didn't they Dread him up to really keep him around?
(And don't hand me that malarkey about it being dangerous to put psykers in Dreadnoughts, the Grey Knights do it often enough! LOL)
What do you all think? Theories and observations?
rkiviman
11-03-2009, 12:34 AM
I believe its because his psychic ability keeps the astronomican up and running. The greates fear for the Imperium is when the Emperor finally dies. Then what is going to happen to all of makind?Will they be able to use the warp or go back basically to the time of strife and anarchy!!?? It's his psychic essence that keeps everything going and being able to use the warp.:confused:
Nabterayl
11-03-2009, 12:39 AM
I always got the impression that the Emperor was more than just mortally wounded. The pilot of a dreadnought is still essentially himself. His brain still works well enough to use a mind impulse unit, for instance, and at essentially no loss of skill. His body may no longer work, but his brain still does. The function of the dreadnought is to give the brain a new body to direct, when a body is so messed up that not even bionics can keep it functional.
By contrast, I always got the impression that the Emperor's body - including the brain - was essentially done for by the time Rogal Dorn found him. Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as we know, the Emperor has never actually spoken, or otherwise physically interacted with the outside world. All we have are psychic phenomena, such as the soul binding ritual, the direction of the Astronomicon, and the Emperor's Tarot, which might be the result of his psychic influence.
In other words, if you will, a dreadnought is a solution if the body is broken but the brain can be saved. I don't think the Emperor even had a functioning brain, really - just a soul, and not even clearly that. Hence the need for more drastic measures than a dreadnought sarcophagus.
EDIT: Okay, perhaps this question needs to be answered by somebody who has read the Horus Heresy books. The information on Lexicanum leads me to believe that we might know more by now. Am I correct that the Golden Throne also seems to be the only known way of allowing the Emperor to project his psychic might with sufficient strength to do the things that need to be done in order to keep mankind a spacefaring species - e.g., direct the Astronomicon?
krispy
11-03-2009, 01:07 AM
also - you would need too make a really big funnel attached to the dreadnought to feed the emperor the blood of the thousand psychers that he has for breakfast every morning....
kinda weird that "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD" is such a Chaos saying when the emperor of mankind drinks so much blood himself ;)
Just_Me
11-03-2009, 01:23 AM
I always got the impression that the Emperor was more than just mortally wounded. The pilot of a dreadnought is still essentially himself. His brain still works well enough to use a mind impulse unit, for instance, and at essentially no loss of skill. His body may no longer work, but his brain still does. The function of the dreadnought is to give the brain a new body to direct, when a body is so messed up that not even bionics can keep it functional.
By contrast, I always got the impression that the Emperor's body - including the brain - was essentially done for by the time Rogal Dorn found him. Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as we know, the Emperor has never actually spoken, or otherwise physically interacted with the outside world. All we have are psychic phenomena, such as the soul binding ritual, the direction of the Astronomicon, and the Emperor's Tarot, which might be the result of his psychic influence.
This is not quite correct. The Emperor’s mind was fully functional after his battle with Horus, at least enough that he was able to design, on the spot, the life support systems of the Golden Thrown and impart these designs along with final orders to Rogal Dorn.
As to why the Emperor wasn’t put in a Dreadnaught, please understand that I mean no personal disrespect when I say that is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard.
In the first place he has MUCH better things to do than tramp around as a giant wind-up toy crushing things. He is the guiding force behind the light of the Astronomicon and the psychic shield that protects human souls from Chaos. He is not just a really badass fighter; to the Imperium he is the political, spiritual, and intellectual heart of humanity. Putting him in a dreadnaught would be like cramming every world leader, scientist, artist and the original copies of every artistic masterpiece, scientific discovery, and political document (not to mention Jesus Christ, Siddhartha, Mohammed, Moses, and any other central religious being you care to mention) into a battle tank and then driving it off to shoot bad guys, what part of that actually sounds like a good plan?
Second being a Dreadnaught would be a massive downgrade for him, walking around as a flesh and blood being he was beyond question one of the most powerful single entities in the 40k universe. If you had the flesh and blood Emperor in an Apocalypse game I would be reluctant to fight him with a handful of Imperator Titans at my command. It would be like taking a paraplegic Superman and deciding that he can still do his job if we just put him in a wheelchair with a grenade launcher attached, I wouldn’t want to fight the result, but compared to the original it would really just be kind of sad.
Finally, the injuries he sustained were not only more severe that that any dreadnaught pilot suffers, but also partially supernatural in nature, he didn’t just suffer a couple of nasty scratches from Horus’s power claw, he suffered the combined psychic onslaught (through Horus) of the first, last, and only time all four Dark Gods completely united, only his own indomitable will and the impossibly arcane workings of the Golden Thrown keep him alive, and even then all they really do is keep his psychic mind anchored to his body (which itself may not even be alive anymore).
also - you would need too make a really big funnel attached to the dreadnought to feed the emperor the blood of the thousand psychers that he has for breakfast every morning....
kinda weird that "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD" is such a Chaos saying when the emperor of mankind drinks so much blood himself ;)
Pssh! Blood is for wusses, the Emperor drinks pure undiluted psyker-soul! Mmmh mmmh good :D!
jodrell
11-03-2009, 04:50 AM
According to Lexicanum (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Emperor_of_Mankind#The_Golden_Throne), the Golden Throne was originally constructed as the entry way to the Webway that the Emperor was building to allow humanity to use the Webway instead of warp ships.
At the outset of the Heresy, when Magnus the Red used his sorcerous powers to warn the Emperor of Horus's treachery, he inadvertently created huge holes in the Emperor's psychic shield. Daemons poured into the human-built portion of the Webway and slaughtered thousands of Adeptus Mechanicus workers there. The Custodian Guard and Sisters of Silence were left fighting a desperate battle to prevent the daemons from reaching the portal through into the Imperial Dungeon. Eventually the Imperial forces had to abandon the Webway and retreat back into the Imperial Palace. The portal was closed but only the psychic power of the Emperor was enough to keep it that way so he was forced to remain on the Golden Throne or find a suitable replacement. When the Emperor was forced to battle Horus on board the Sons of Horus flagship, the Vengeful Spirit, his place on the throne was taken briefly by Malcador the Sigillite. Malcador perished performing this endeavour, and the mortally wounded Emperor was reinstated upon the Throne after his battle with Horus. At his instruction, it was then enhanced and converted into the life-sustaining form it currently bears.
So if the Emperor was moved from the Throne, the Webway portal would open and the powers of Chaos would be unleashed on Terra.
According to Lexicanum (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Emperor_of_Mankind#The_Golden_Throne), the Golden Throne was originally constructed as the entry way to the Webway that the Emperor was building to allow humanity to use the Webway instead of warp ships.
So if the Emperor was moved from the Throne, the Webway portal would open and the powers of Chaos would be unleashed on Terra.
Exactly that, the astronomican wouldn't work without him and the Golden Throne is stopping Terra getting overrun by the content of the warp. That's a really bad thing given that the Golden Throne is failing and the Ad Mech (unsurprisingly) don't know how to fix it!
AirHorse
11-03-2009, 05:32 AM
Think of it this way, the golden throne is basicaly an uberdreadnought that sustains not just the emperors body(though that is questionable after a couple of handfuls of millenia :P) and also keeps his immortal soul tied to his body so he can still direct the astronomicon.
This thread just made me have a random thought, I had been under the impression that the emperor was the ultimate bad *** with some uber plan totaly firing away throughout the millenia for whatever his grand purpose really is(maybe it really is to unite humanity and engineer its survival!) but ultimately he was aloof and used humanity as a tool overall.
But talking about the golden throne just here made me realise that it was the emperors choice to get incarcerated within the golden throne and effective prevent him from ascending to the warp and more than likely becoming a god because of the power of his soul. That is one hell of a sacrifice for humanity right there! Respect for the big E!
Gotthammer
11-03-2009, 12:04 PM
Putting him in a dreadnaught would be like cramming every world leader, scientist, artist and the original copies of every artistic masterpiece, scientific discovery, and political document (not to mention Jesus Christ, Siddhartha, Mohammed, Moses, and any other central religious being you care to mention) into a battle tank and then driving it off to shoot bad guys, what part of that actually sounds like a good plan?
I think Einstein deserves a special mention on that list. (http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r314/Gotthammer/40k/EinsteinVsNinjas1.jpg)
Ivarr
11-03-2009, 12:36 PM
It's all myth...the Emperor died that day and the rest of the story is a farce forced upon us by the powers that be to avoid total chaos...which would have inevitably been the undoing of all the Emperor worked for. It is very effective, but "goof" all the same. At this point, the whole of what happened during the Heresy has fallen to legend. Who knows what is real and what is not any more??
Just_Me
11-03-2009, 03:08 PM
It's all myth...the Emperor died that day and the rest of the story is a farce forced upon us by the powers that be to avoid total chaos...which would have inevitably been the undoing of all the Emperor worked for. It is very effective, but "goof" all the same.
Seriously, no, he didn’t die. That’s what the Chaos party line is (insofar as Chaos has a party line…). There is abundant evidence that he is alive, else the Astronomican would fail and the Soulbinding would not be possible, just to name a few examples.
On the other hand while he definitely isn’t “dead” he isn’t “alive” either, and it is somewhat unclear if he is conscious in his current state.
At this point, the whole of what happened during the Heresy has fallen to legend. Who knows what is real and what is not any more??
Well, those of us who have read the Horus Hersey novels for a start…
I think Einstein deserves a special mention on that list. (http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r314/Gotthammer/40k/EinsteinVsNinjas1.jpg)
And yes, yes he does, that omission was my mistake.
As was said earlier, I always thought of the Golden throne as a super dread.
Duke
Alrik_40000
11-04-2009, 09:42 PM
I suppose it would have behooved me to read more about the Heresy or the Golden Throne before posting this. I basically thought everything was groovy as long as he was conscious. I didn't realize it had gotten to the point where he had to sit on the Throne continually to keep away the nastiness and bring the good...
And I wasn't proposing they throw him on the front lines of every little skirmish either... Seeing as how Chapters seek wisdom from their dreadnoughts since they've seen a bunch of crap, I was thinking it would be great to actually get advice from the Big Guy himself.
Just_Me
11-06-2009, 12:52 PM
I suppose it would have behooved me to read more about the Heresy or the Golden Throne before posting this.
I wouldn’t say that, when I posted that I meant you no disrespect by my ranting response, I honestly meant just that. You clearly have gaps in your knowledge, but you are asking questions, and the purpose of asking questions is to have others help to fill in said gaps (otherwise you wouldn’t be asking questions at all!). So in that sense you should feel no shame in your question.
From a purely literary perspective however, I would heartily recommend reading the Horus Heresy novels, some are weaker than others, but on the whole they are very interesting to anyone who wants to learn about the history of the 40k lore. Even if that doesn’t interest you they really are a great story. As an example; I got my father started reading them, and while he neither plays the games nor has any prior background knowledge (beyond what I have told him), he thoroughly enjoys them as a stand-alone series and has since begun asking me for a lot more information about the fluff.
I basically thought everything was groovy as long as he was conscious. I didn't realize it had gotten to the point where he had to sit on the Throne continually to keep away the nastiness and bring the good...
That’s a tricky one, to be quite honest that information is not entirely reliable (or arguably even entirely canon). It doesn’t come from GW directly, but from Sabertooth Games who the licensed to produce the Horus Heresy CCG. At this point GW seems to be choosing to back it up, but they could just as easily decide to pull the rug out from under it if they wanted. I am personally biased on this subject, as in my personal opinion it is a somewhat anticlimactic reveal, and I would prefer them to come up with something more compelling. However, my own personal opinions aside, it is notably the HH novels have revealed a few facts that really contradict this story. Most notably that if it were true it would mean that the Emperor would have to have been sitting on the Golden Thrown nonstop from the time Magnus psychically warned him of Horus’s treachery (and thereby messed up the carful equilibrium to cause the warp rift in the first place), to the time he faced Horus in orbit and Malcador temporarily took his place (an effort that killed Malcador, even though he was a staggeringly potent psyker in his own right). But in both Blood Games and The Lightning Tower the Emperor was able to leave his seclusion, at least temporarily.
Melissia
11-07-2009, 05:59 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong
You are. The Emperor spoke with the founders of the Adepta Sororitas as late as M.36.
Nabterayl
11-07-2009, 07:06 PM
I was under the impression that all we know happened was that the Custodes took Dominica and her bodyguards into the throne room, where ... something happened. Dominica came out of the Presence convinced that Vandire had hoodwinked them, marched into Vandire's audience chamber, denounced him, and slew him.
if that's all we know happened, that's not what I was talking about. A dreadnought pilot can actually speak. With a synthesized voice, perhaps, but audible words. A dreadnought pilot can participate in a war council. He can recite poetry, if he's so inclined. He can sing. He can read the phonebook.
When was the last time the Emperor produced an audible sound? When was the last time he had a two-way conversation with somebody? When was the last time he engaged in a discussion of policy? Not since before the Ascension, right?
The evidence seems quite good that the Emperor communicates, but I've never gotten the impression he's in any kind of state to, for instance, discuss public policy with the High Lords, even if the High Lords had regular access to the throne room. Influencing the Emperor's Tarot, doing something to those who have been in his Presence, sure ... but nothing so mundane or useful as speech, right?
Melissia
11-08-2009, 06:03 AM
He spoke to them, and other Adepta Sororitas fluff continues this-- the Order of the Ebon Chalice was given a name baed off of the vision granted by the Emperor when they met with him.
Whether or not the Emperor speaks in words or in visions, he speaks to his people; and therefor his mind is not as dead as you or the servants of the dark gods would claim it to be.
Nabterayl
11-08-2009, 10:21 AM
I don't know how "dead" you think I'm claiming the Emperor's mind is. I know that the Emperor does stuff. Plenty of people have been granted visions in the Presence, and even more have undergone the soulbinding (for those who don't know, every sanctioned psyker in the Imperium, from the most potent Grey Knight grand master to the lowliest astropath, undergoes a ritual called the "soulbinding" in the Presence of the Emperor, after which the psyker has a resistance to the Warp that he did not have before; many also receive visions during the ritual).
I certainly don't think the Emperor is dead. What I do think is that there's a difference between communicating by soul (or communicating psychically, if you prefer to be more scientific about it) and communicating by mouth or vox. The only times it's been spelled out how the Emperor communicates, it's been the former, which is very different than how a dreadnought - even a dreadnought piloted by a psyker - behaves. Since Alrik's original question was about the difference between the Golden Throne and a dreadnought sarcophagus, that seemed relevant to me.
If the Emperor were in the same state as a dreadnought pilot, he could (and presumably would, out of boredom if nothing else) speak with the Companions, wouldn't he? Or was the task of using the Golden Throne so great even in life that he couldn't be spare the attention to speak when he was on it, even in life?
entendre_entendre
11-08-2009, 02:22 PM
If the Emperor were in the same state as a dreadnought pilot, he could (and presumably would, out of boredom if nothing else) speak with the Companions, wouldn't he? Or was the task of using the Golden Throne so great even in life that he couldn't be spare the attention to speak when he was on it, even in life?
golden throne room:
++ Hey! Can a brother get a beer around here? ++
Custodes: "what?!? who said that?"
++ Ummm... Look up.++
Custodes: "my lord?"
++ Who else would it be?++
Custodes: "... my lord, you're alive?"
++ Of course I'm alive, why would you think otherwise?++
Custodes:"..."
++ It's those High Lords again isn't it?++
Custodes:"..."
++ So... can I get that beer?++
Custodes:"why m'lord?"
++Let me think... I've been guiding all warp travel for 10,000 years while simultaneously holding a webway portal closed to prevent Daemons from overrunning the planet for the same amount of time. On consideration of this, I think my request really isn't that outrageous.++
Custodes:"alright, i'll be back in a few minutes."
++Sure, I've already been here for 10,000 years, what's a few more minutes?++
Custodes:"here you are."
++Ahhh... nothing like a cold, refreshing, tasty beer after using your psychic might to-... What the F*ck is this?!?!?!"++
Custodes:"that's the local brew sir."
++More like the local latrines! I suspected things might deteriorate in my absence, but DAAMN! What kind of empire is this? They say you can tell a lot about an empire by its drinks, and in reference to this swill, everyone must be a total, in-bred, swine!++
Custodes:"i'm sorry sir?"
++I'm sorry, I didn't mean to insult you. It's just that this is so horrible, ugh! I guess I had high hopes, but after ten millenia, what did I honestly expect?++
Custodes:"okay, is there anything else i can do for you my lord?"
++Actually, if you don't mind, I've had the nastiest itch behind my left shoulder for the last 5,000 years, could you scratch it? I'd do it myself, but you know, hold the whole "hold the Imperium together" thing and all that..."
Jay Biga
11-09-2009, 05:13 AM
A dreadnought pilot can actually...(snip)...read the phonebook.
But good luck flipping the pages with thumbs that big... ;)
I take it most of you have never played Inquisitor. EVERY THING YOU HAVE BEEN TOLD IS A LIE!
It is actually possible to bring his soul back into his body...oh dear.
And @ double entendre: LOL!
Dragonstriker
11-09-2009, 05:47 AM
(for those who don't know, every sanctioned psyker in the Imperium, from the most potent Grey Knight grand master to the lowliest astropath, undergoes a ritual called the "soulbinding" in the Presence of the Emperor, after which the psyker has a resistance to the Warp that he did not have before; many also receive visions during the ritual).
This is not exactly true - only those psykers too weak to withstand the warp on their own are soulbound. Soul-bound psykers become astropaths. The soul-binding ritual destroys the optic nerves and often other nerves as well and so all astropaths are blind and many are deaf or lack the senses of smell or touch.
"...only a tiny proportion of the very best are judged strong
enough to survive without some form of psychic protection. So psykers
can be found throughout the Adepeus Terra, the Inquisition, the
Legiones Astartes, the army and the fleet. However, over 90% of
psykers in imperial service are members of the Adeptus Astra
Telepathica, known commonly as Astropaths. Astropaths are created
from those who have considerable powers. but who are not
individually strong enough to withstand the attentions of psychically
attuned warpcreatures. Were they simply allowed to develop without
interference they would quickly find themselves in serious trouble
endangering the rest of humanity as well as themselves. However
the Imperium has a use for them. An Astropath is an Astro-telepath,
an individual capable of communicating with others of his kind over
vast interstellar distances. In the Age of the Imperium, where worlds
are lightyears apart, this is the only practical means of communication.
for this reason the network of Astropaths is very important to the
Imperium, and every spacecraft, research station, outpost, etc., has
its own Astropath. Even small planets need hundreds of these useful
servants, while large worlds may have thousands and Earth itself is
home to tens of thousands.
All Astropaths undergo a special process which moulds their powers
and at the same time strengthens them against psychic danger. This
is called the soul-binding ritual and only the Emperor has the power
to perform it. It takes place in the great palace where the psykers
are led before the Emperor one hundred at a time. Knelt before the
Emperor they must endure several hours of agony whilst the Emperor
uses his powers to reshape their minds - mingling a little of his
immeasurable power with their own. Unfortunately, the Emperor's
mind is so powerful that not all candidates survive the ritual. Some
are driven insane. and all have their personalities altered to some
extent. The raw energy of the Emperor's will also has another effect.
So powerful are the forces involved that many of the more deIicate
nerves can be damaged, especially the optic nerves. Consequently all
Astropaths are blind, whist many may also lack any sense of smell, touch or hearing.
pp147-8 WH40K Rogue Trader
Nabterayl
11-09-2009, 10:27 AM
Oops, I was thinking of a passage in the Dark Heresy book that I apparently made up :p Thanks for the correction!
Inquisitor Jago Spoke with the enthroned Emperor in Ian Watson's Inquisitor series. Alright, the book suggests an unreliable author and the emperor's consciousness was fragmented (not providing his undivided attention in any event) but there was direct telepathic linguisitic communication.
That is the only example of 'diret' communication, I have come across in the fluff, from the Emperor. There are plenty of instances of religious signs / visions etc associated with the emperor but these do not have direct dialogue.
See the thread about the greatest secret in 40k - good stuff.
If any one can reference another example, I would be grateful to hear about it. I am wading through the Inquisitor rule book for radical etc interpretations of the Emperor's current state.
I like the increasing references to the emperor stepping down from the golden throne (Scourge the Heretic by Sandy Mitchell) but this all jars with the famous Abnett leak that the Emperor was always just a physical husk (even in the early days referred to in Legion), burnt out by his immense psychic power.
The guy is an old one anyway.;)
Re: why not a dreadnought suit - the golden throne modifications were drawn by the emperor in his own blood after being wounded by Horus, if he'd had a pen and paper, who knows what modifications he would have made...!:D
Lord Anubis
11-09-2009, 05:12 PM
I think the Golden Throne is a perfect example of the problems the Horus Heresy books are creating.
Don't get me wrong-- I think I lot of the books are interesting and great fun. When the long-ago Heresy was lost in the distant past, though, shrouded in mysteries and half-legends and hearsay, it didn't matter as much when you had contadictory stories or things didn't quite match up on a timeline. Now that the HH books are establishing so many facts about what happened, it's making a bunch of holes very apparent as well.
Writer A tries to patch the holes with a fact-filled story, but the patch contradicts writer B's fact-filled story. So C comes in with a third story that resolves everything. Except for that one little thread. Which means they need to...
"So, the Emperor was almost killed by Horus so they had to put him on the Golden Throne to keep him alive?"
"Yep. And now he's there serving as the guiding light of the Astronomican."
"What? I thought they did that all on their own, and there were, like, mini-Astronomicans on some planets like little lighthouses."
"Nope, it's all the Emperor."
"So how did people travel in warp space before the end of the Heresy?"
"Oh. Well, he actually built it before the Heresy."
"But... but before the Heresy he was up and doing his thing. Running, jumping, climbing trees, conquering worlds, and all that."
"Well...right. He didn't need to be on the Golden Throne until Magnus the Red ripped a hole in warp space around the Earth at the start of the Heresy. You remember that, right, when he tried to warn the Emperor about Horus?"
"...yeah..."
"Well, because Magnus didn't really know what he was doing, he tore a hole in warp space that would let demons pour out over the Earth. So the Emperor has to sit on the Throne to keep the warp breach closed."
"..and be the guiding light of the Astronomican."
"Right."
"...while it keeps him alive?"
"Exactly."
"But that still doesn't manke sense. The Emperor was fighting during the Heresy. There's that whole story of him facing down Horus in their final battle."
"Right. Which is why he has to sit on the Throne."
"Which he'd already built and planned to sit on for all eternity anyway?"
"Well... sort of..."
"But how'd he fight Horus without all the demons getting through and destroying Earth?"
"Oh. Well, someone else sat on the chair for him. This guy... ummmm, Malcador. Like the tank. He sat on the throne for the Emperor so the big guy could go fight Horus."
"So anyone can sit in the Golden Throne and do the job?"
"Well... no. Only psykers."
"Don't they sacrifice like a thousand psykers to the Emperor every day anyway?"
"Well, yeah, but... Malcador was really powerful."
"But if all they need is powerful psykers, doesn't that mean they could free the Emperor at any time?"
"Look, kid, are you going to buy the #&%@*ng codex or not?!?"
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