Returning to the Land of Chill

[Chumbalaya]

Hello slaves,

I picked up DE for a bit back when the book first came out. I had some laughs, shed some tears, and generally enjoyed myself. However, Fantasy fell out of favor with me and I quit playing for a while. I sold off my DE, figuring that Skaven would be all the army I'd need, and moved back over to 40k (IG to be specific).

Well, my interest in Fantasy has been peaked again thanks in part to the new Skaven book coming out this week. Reading ******'s review and checking out his other thoughts on Fantasy helped too. So, I went over to the FLGS to pre-order the Army Book, a Plague Furnace and Doomwheel. After taking care of business, I noticed they were having a sale, clearing out old stock. Everything was half off and I stumbled across the Dark Elf Spearhead. One impulse buy later and I'm off with the Spearhead, Battalion box and Glade Riders box. Go me.

So I'm back to square one with the Dark Elves. I've got a good idea of what I want to build towards, keeping it as cheap and effective as possible. I think they'll make a great counterpart to my Skaven.

Here's what I'm looking at for 2250

Lords/HeroesSupreme Sorc-level 4, dagger, pearl, (Lifetaker? Null Talismans?)
Lokhir Fellheart
Sorceress-level 2, Darkstar Cloak, dark steed, dispel scroll

Core
2x 14 Corsairs, musician
18 Warriors, lordling, musician
5 Dark Riders, RxBs, musicians
10 Corsairs, musician
Assassin-2hw, Rune of Khaine

Special
2x 5 Cold One Knights-musician
8 Shades

Rare
2x War Hydra

Obviously this is based on ******'s DE army, I wanted a good baseline to work with and this fit what I wanted to do with the army. As I playtest it I'm sure things will be modified accordingly. Most DE armies I've seen are deathstar armies with souped up characters and lots of shooting. I went for a more MSU feel since I don't put much stock in deathstars (plus I've got a Screaming Bell and Plague Furnace in my Skaven army :P).

The army splits down the middle, with 14 Corsairs (7x2 for maximum attacks), Cold One Knights and a Hydra to each flank. Lokhir goes where he's needed, and the Dark Riders and Shades go after war machines or just annoy people (I would prefer RxBs and Harpies, but monies are a problem). The mounted Sorc either goes with the Dark Riders or runs solo if it's safe. The SS and her battery deploy somewhere safe and sling magic all game, with the Assassin and 10 Corsairs for protecton (anything that can get back there will be some soft and squishy. Corsairs and Assassins love squishy.

I left out unit champions and standards because I don't think DE do well in stand up fights (apart from Warriors and Black Guard), so why bother trying? It's all aggressive and if need be I can flee and use the musician to get back in again. Corsairs to the front with flanking COK and/or a Hydra will break most units, and with the Corsairs combined with speedy Knights/Hydras I can run them down quite easily.

So, does that make sense? Anything off base? Any ideas on how to improve it while still keeping it relatively inexpensive $$-wise?

[Bigred]

I've never been a fan of Lifetaker since that thrice-damned FAQ ruled its shots dont count as magical attacks (it was my wraith killer before that). Now the talismans on the other hand are great for your critical units.

It looks like you will have the same love hate relationship every other DE player has with Cold One Knights. Best models in the range and look fantastic onthe table, but most unreliable, overcosted and generally poor performing unit in the army. Stupidity is just crippling.

I'm down to a single unit of 5 with no upgrades at all for 2nd string countercharge and general blocking/positioning.

I'd add a Cauldron, its to powerful and flexible an option not to have.

[Confuddled]

Corsairs to the front with flanking COK and/or a Hydra will break most units, and with the Corsairs combined with speedy Knights/Hydras I can run them down quite easily.
Well, here’s the kicker.

On the one hand, if you’re charging, a Hydra in the flank will break most units anyway!
Throwing Corsairs into the mix just gives the other guy’s units something squishy to beat up on.

On the other hand, if you’re being charged, a bunch of Corsairs or Warriors aren’t going to hold up to any sort of respectable melee unit – your best bet would be to just run away, hopefully get out of range and jump him with your Hydras and heavy cavalry on your own turn.


Considering you’re going for a MSU/bait-switch army backed up by some serious spell-slinging, you might as well go with Dark Riders and harpies as your core troops.

They’re also going to be a lot more useful when it comes to controlling the other guys’ movement, keeping them FAR FAR away from your Sorceress Supreme.

Kicker is that the other guy doesn’t even need to break the Sorceress’ unit (or kill anything) to shut down her contribution to the game – all I need to do is park a unit of garbage in front of her (Furies, summoned Zombies, Wolf riders even!) to block her LOS – once that’s restricted, her magic is going to be a darn sight LESS effective.


Best use for Corsairs? As a source of bitz for converting plastic character models…



Lords/HeroesSupreme Sorc-level 4, dagger, pearl, (Lifetaker? Null Talismans?)
Lokhir Fellheart
Sorceress-level 2, Darkstar Cloak, dark steed, dispel scroll
…
…
Assassin-2hw, Rune of Khaine

Lokhir?

Meh… he’s an overpriced T3 Elf with not much by way of armour.

Yes yes, I know you get the model in the boxed set, but honestly, considering his point cost and your current army style, you’d probably do better to invest in a Master or two mounted on Dark Steeds/Dark Pegasii.

Actually, come to think of it, you’d want mounts for ALL your characters, including the Sorceress Supreme.

Yes yes, she’s got a bodyguard unit so-called, but the extra movement is a huge help just in case something big and nasty actually finds itself in a position to charge her and her unit on your opponent’s next turn – y’know, big nasty flying monsters like Dragons and Bloodthirsters… at that point, the Dark Steed can be a literal life-saver.



The SS and her battery deploy somewhere safe and sling magic all game, with the Assassin and 10 Corsairs for protecton (anything that can get back there will be some soft and squishy. Corsairs and Assassins love squishy.

The Assassin isn’t going to be much help either – 3+d3 S4 attacks are going to patter off a Dragon Lord or Bloodthirster like gentle spring rain.

He’ll be just as useless when it comes to taking down units with any sort of armour/ward/regeneration save, let alone all three!

(And it’s a lot more likely a big scary melee monster is going to get past your heavy cavalry and Hydras, as opposed to some dinky fast support unit like Harpies or Warhawk Riders - they're going to be too busy baiting the Hydras!)


All things considered, if you really want an Assassin, a sneaky git with the Touch of Death and another Gift or two (Rune of Khaine or Cloak of Twilight and Black Lotus?) could lend a little extra something to your Shades instead of sticking him in a unit that generally isn’t worth the effort of charging that’s going to be stuck WAAAY back in your deployment zone.

Unmask him on turn 1 and start putting the pressure on early.

Touch of Death – it’s the killer app these days, since it negates armour and regeneration. Still won’t do jack to a Bloodthirster or Dragon, but it works just fine on pretty much everyone else (ie every single US1/US2 model that doesn’t have some form of magical protection), and at least you’ve got a pretty good chance of whacking the guy riding the Dragon.

Rune of Khaine – more killing blow attacks is always a good thing.

Cloak of Twilight – puts more pressure on the other guys’ magic defence, increasing the odds of your Sorceresses getting spells off.

Black Lotus – increases the odds of you getting a Killing Blow, especially since it “turns off” your poisoned attacks.

As an alternative, the old Manbane+Rending Stars combo always works…

[Confuddled]

Something like this, perhaps?

[quote]
Level 4 Sorceress, Pearl, Dagger, dark steed
Level 2 Sorceress, Darkstar Cloak, dispel scroll, dark steed
Master BSB, Sword of Might, Pendant of Khaeleth, heavy armour, shield, sea dragon cloak
Master, Crimson Death, Armour of Darkness, Dark Pegasus
Assassin, Rune of Khaine, Touch of Death, Manbane

5 Dark Riders, musician
5 Dark Riders, musician
5 Harpies
5 Harpies
18 Spearmen, musician

8 Shades, great weapons
8 Cold One Knights, full command, Ring of Hotek, Ring of Hotek

2 Hydras


Just about 2250 points
[./quote]

1) Level 4 hangs with the power dic..um.. I mean spearmen and slings spells. Wonder what their life insurance premiums are like…

If something nasty her way comes, ditch the unit and head for the hills.


2) Level 2 zooms around with the Dark Riders, OR she sticks with the Spearmen, OR she runs solo. Whatever rocks your boat, depending on terrain and degree of opposition.


3) Ditto for the 2 Masters – they’ll probably charge in support of the three heavy hitters OR bully softer units.

Against units with no static CR beyond an outnumber bonus, the BSB in particular is especially nasty since he has automatically drawn combat – throw in 3 S6 and 2 S4/5 attacks and you’re looking at very good odds for winning combat …


4) Dark Riders and Harpies do the usual thing:
a) Control the other guy’s movement
b) Threaten flanks
c) Run down the other guy’s artillery
d) Prevent him from fleeing from a charge by the Hydras, Cold One Knights and/or Masters


5) Shades come on and start putting the pressure on early – 2 points for a GW means even Shades can break just about anything short of a combat character with a flank charge.


6) Hydras can work the flanks or just slam straight up the centre – T5 W5 and regeneration is pretty darn reliable, and any wounds taken don’t affect the Hydra’s strength in close combat!


7) Ditto for the Cold Ones – probably put them on one flank or the other, though – you don’t want that Ring anywhere NEAR the mages…

a) Unit of 8 gives the unit the ability to take some wounds before it becomes useless – keeps attacks AND US up.
b) Banner of Cold Blood makes them as close to reliable as possible for that one crucial charge (95% of succeeding, compared to their normal 83%)

[Chumbalaya]

I actually flipped through the book again and came up with this:
SS w/ Pearl, Dagger, Lifetaker, Null Talisman
Sorc w/ Darkstar, Dispel Scroll
Lokhir
2x 14 Corsairs, musician
18 power dice, lordling, musician
11 Corsairs, handbows, musician
Assassin w/ 2hw, RoK
2x 5 Shades, gw
2x 5 COK, musician
2x Hydra

Ok, so SS goes with her battery, Sorc goes with the Corsairs. I do have the mounted model for each (shame it's a Cold One, tricky to convert) so if I could find 24 points they'd be in (both COK musicians and the extra rhb Corsair, done). Between the Lifetaker, handbows, assassin I should be able to see of anything squishy that runs into my backfield. Big meanies like Dragons and BTs I can block and redirect with my Shades as needed. Corsairs are soft, but I will always get the charge and between them, Lokhir and the COK/Hydra I should not get many attacks coming my way so I can break and run them down much easier (getting double VPs from Lokhir).

I've got squiddly diddly for 2 reasons.
1) I love the model, it's just too cool.
2) He murders ranked units, which is exactly what my Corsairs are meant to.

I could drop him as he is pretty expensive and specialized, but I'd want to keep him if at all possible.

Everything is cheap and expendable, which is kinda the point. I use my mobility and flexibility to force deathstar and blockhammer armies into unfavorable positions.

I love the idea of Harpies and Dark Riders, I just have no way to pick them up cheap. All told, this army ends up around 250 bucks and I really don't want to spend much more than that. If you can suggest some cheap alternatives for DR and Harpies I'd be all for it.

Confuddled's list looks pretty neat. I don't like the ginormous unit of COK or Shades though, I prefer them cheaper and smaller so losing 1 isn't a big deal. I don't put standard in cavalry units because they usually don't need the CR bonus, they either break a unit on the charge or flee next round. I don't want to give up 100 VPs (or is it 50? Haven't played in a while) because of one bad set of rolls.

The biggest problem I see myself having is dealing with flying super monsters like BTs or Dragons. Crossbows/handbows probably won't do enough damage to bring it down, and its movement makes my Hydras look like Dwarfs by comparison. All I can think of is to just ignore them and use my Skirmishers to block movement and direct it away from my army.

How about a BSB w/ the Pendant to tie them up for a couple turns?

I appreciate the input. I'm still unfamiliar with Fantasy, especially after dropping it for a couple months, so any experience offered helps a lot. I'll do some playtesting and keep documenting it on my blog (shameless plug: www.bnhblog.blogspot.com).

[Confuddled]

Corsairs are soft, but I will always get the charge and between them, Lokhir and the COK/Hydra I should not get many attacks coming my way so I can break and run them down much easier (getting double VPs from Lokhir).

First things first – you always get the charge on M4 infantry.

When it comes to dealing with anything that’s faster, odds are you are the one who’s going to get charged.

It doesn’t help that you don’t have anywhere near enough :

a) Fast, mobile units to take block the other guy’s hammers before they get into place to charge the squishy stuff, and

b) Enough shooting to take down the other guy’s support units (fast cavalry, unit fliers) before they get into place to block/divert the Hydras and Knights.





I've got squiddly diddly for 2 reasons.
1) I love the model, it's just too cool.
2) He murders ranked units, which is exactly what my Corsairs are meant to.


Fair enough – he IS a pretty sweet model, but then that’s true for most models in the Dark Elf range.

Lokhir is really great for carving great swathes through low-quality ranked infantry – WS3/WS4 T3 units with little/no armour.

Ditto for the Corsairs.

Trouble is, who the heck runs low-quality ranked infantry these days?!



Rule of thumb for ranked infantry –

1) They should be as cheap and expendable as possible – these guys are there to hold down table quarters, generate static CR and generally tire the other guy’s sword arm out. Think zombies and night goblins. Or even basic Dark Elf Warriors, for that matter – they’re the cheapest core choice in the Dark Elf list.


2) If the unit is not cheap and expendable, then it had better be stubborn/unbreakable. I don’t care how many of my friends die – I’m staying right here. Zombies again. Flagellants. Plaguebearers.


3) If the unit is not cheap and expendable and/or stubborn/unbreakable, then it had better be rock-hard and pure hell in combat. I don’t care how butch you are – you charge me and you’re still going to get spanked.
Black Guard. Chosen with Great Weapons. Swordmasters.



The best infantry units combine 2 or more of the above. Black Guard are pretty darn hard in combat AND stubborn. Chosen are potentially “stubborn” and plain wrong in combat. Zombies are cheap and unbreakable.



Corsairs, sadly enough, fit in NONE of the above categories.


You can chew up gobbos, Zombies or Empire state troops till your arms fall off and not really make a difference.

You can't chew up T4 stubborn/unbreakable units fast enough.

And you really really don't want to go toe-to-toe with the heavily-armoured elite infantry that's been showing up over the past few years.


End result?

If you’re looking to go mano a mano with the guy with the 200 lovingly-painted Empire spearmen with individual designs on their shields, then yeah, Corsairs and Lokhir kick bottom.

Against pretty much anyone else, you’re in for a challenge. Which is fine if that’s what you want, but not exactly top-tier material.




Everything is cheap and expendable, which is kinda the point. I use my mobility and flexibility to force deathstar and blockhammer armies into unfavorable positions.
What mobility and flexibility?

- M5 notwithstanding, ranked infantry, as a rule, is slow as sin and not very flexible – that having to wheel is a real pain.

- Shades are great harassment units, but the much too expensive (and slow) to consistently block heavy cavalry. And they don’t do jack when it comes to stopping enemy fliers.

- The only real mobile threats are the hydras – they’re terrifying (in every sense of the word), but:

1) you only have two of them.

2) They’re foot-slogging models, so they’re actually a lot easier to block.

3) With little shooting of your own (piddly handbows don’t count), you have to rely on magic to take down the other guy’s fast bait units, which means your mages won’t be able to concentrate on taking down his heavy hitters.





I love the idea of Harpies and Dark Riders, I just have no way to pick them up cheap. All told, this army ends up around 250 bucks and I really don't want to spend much more than that. If you can suggest some cheap alternatives for DR and Harpies I'd be all for it.

1) Wood Elf glade riders for Dark Riders (and any other characters on Dark Steeds that you might want to use).

The Warstore (http://www.thewarstore.com/product33360.html) also has pretty sleek horses from the Lion chariot if you want a few more Dark Steeds and don’t want the (old!!) supersized versions.


2) Fleabay for the Harpies?





. I don't like the ginormous unit of COK or Shades though, I prefer them cheaper and smaller so losing 1 isn't a big deal.

Ok. First things first – when it comes to Shades, the cost difference between a unit of 8 and a unit of 8 with GW is, oh, 16 points?

Yeah – I’ll take the +2 S, thank you very much!





I don't put standard in cavalry units because they usually don't need the CR bonus, they either break a unit on the charge or flee next round. I don't want to give up 100 VPs (or is it 50? Haven't played in a while) because of one bad set of rolls.

1) As I’ve said before, its not just about redundancy – its about maintaining the number of models in your fighting rank.

2) A captured standard gives away 100VP.

Trick, of course, is that the other guy has to be in possession of the standard at the end of the game in order to claim those 100VP.

If they’re destroyed or fleeing when the game ends, no bonus VP for him.


With a unit of 5:
1) You’ve got next to no redundancy, and:
2) You’ve got a 15% chance of failing stupidity each turn – NOT a good thing if you want to use them to coordinate charges, usually because the supporting unit is going to be left hanging to dry.

With a unit of 8 and a full command group:
1) You’ve got 2-3 spare wounds, and:
2) The magic standard gives you a 97% chance of passing your stupidity test on that one critical turn when you must declare a charge.





The biggest problem I see myself having is dealing with flying super monsters like BTs or Dragons. … … All I can think of is to just ignore them and use my Skirmishers to block movement and direct it away from my army.

Here’s the thing – if it’s a flying Large Target (ie a Dragon, Bloodthirster or equivalent), skirmishers are going to do sweet diddly ****all to stop the big lug.

1) You can charge anything you see.

2) As a Large Target, you can see over anything except other large targets and/or BIG pieces of terrain (forests, for instance, assuming you agree that forests are infinitely tall).

3) As a flyer, you can fly over blocking units.
Think jump infantry in 40K


So, anything within 20” and in LOS (a 45-degree arc to the front of the model) is fair game for big flying gribblies.





How about a BSB w/ the Pendant to tie them up for a couple turns?
Might work. Trouble is:


a) The BSB needs to be in position to hit them. At BEST, he’s got a similar charge range (18”-20”), but he’s limited by his charge arc, possible march-blockers and terrain penalties. A flyer can just land anywhere within 20” of its initial position (ie out of the BSB’s charge arc).

b) Even if the other guy is sloppy enough to land where the BSB can get at him, the BSB is going to have to pass his terror test – 15% chance of failure, and he’s running away if he fails!

[icecube]

I´d swap Lokhir for an Claudron of blood with BSB. You´ll save 25 points and get an waaay better character. What does "18 power dice" mean? Iit means 18 warriors, give them an standard, so the'ill get an better CR at the start of the combat. And lastly, 3 small units of corsairs in large front ranks will end up just easy victory points for any determired and fast attacker(cavarly).