How To Kill Helldrakes (Works On Most Fliers):

[Caitsidhe]

There was a thread on Warseer that I tried to get going for people to talk about their tactics and methods of dealing with the rather imposing threat of the Chaos Space Marine Helldrake. While I do believe it is a powerful, effective tool, I do not believe it is unstopable or broken. It is my personal opinion that people just haven't caught up with dealing with Fliers in general and the Helldrake specifically. It changes the game for certain factions who simply aren't used to not getting their 3+ save. Let me repeat, I'm not saying the Helldrake isn't good at its job (probably the best) nor am I saying killing 1-3 of them is no sweat. I'm saying the things are here to stay and we might as well reconcile ourselves to finding the most effective ways of dealinging with them within our factions, allies, and/or imports from Forge world. There are also lots of tactics in general which make this viable.

I have my own tactics and primary choices for dealing with them but I want to hear from some of you first. That way I'm not just quacking in the night. :)

[Demonus]

most effective Ive seen against me is 3 x Oblits firing twin liked melta gun. plasma guns from behind also a good choice.

[Caitsidhe]

most effective Ive seen against me is 3 x Oblits firing twin liked melta gun. plasma guns from behind also a good choice.

That is actually one of my overlapping AA defenses. Three twin-linked shots is statistically going to hit once, and with Melta probably and good odds on a kill. Twin-Linked decent strength in volume period is very effective if you can get on the Aft.

[Sly]

1: 3x Land Speeder with 2x MM each, in a Codex where you can get a Divination Librarian (or ally). 6 TL MM shots, usually fast enough to get rear shots, is not what the Heldrake wants to sense behind it.
2: Tau allies. Twin-linked, Tank Hunter shots from the Quad-Gun (at BS5) plus 24 TL shots at S7 will take down 1 Heldrake each turn. That's 3 Broadsides + Missile Drones, Multi-tracker on them so you don't waste all of their firepower on one target (you could make them even nastier vs Flyers by changing that to a Velocity Tracker), and a Commander with the sensor suits and at least one Drone to fire the Quad Gun. And it's good against infantry/ground vehicles also.
3: Annihilation Barges. They average hitting against Flyers as if they were BS3 S7 shots, due to the Tesla "3 hits for the price of a 6" rule, and at only 90 pts each, they're a bargain for the firepower.
4: Storm Talon. With its all-around fire, once it gets behind the Heldrake, the Heldrake can't even Vector Strike it, and it can keep shooting it in the rear.
5: Lootas. BS 2, BS 1, big deal. Orks don't aim anyhow. On that topic, also the Warbuggies with tlRokkit are fast enough to get behind Heldrakes and twin-linked S8 shots against AV10 is annoying.
6: Spread out. It's far more dangerous when it hits 6 models with the Flamer instead of 4.
7: Terminators and Bikes. Bike squads lined end to end mean it can only Flame 3 at a time. Terminators are more worried about your Bolters than about your Heldrakes.

[Mr Mystery]

Other Flyers....

Thinks abouts it precious....it's arguably even more obvious than it seems....

Heldrake with Burninator is seemingly the most popular kit out, and understandably so. Burns pretty much anyone out of cover. But, short of Vector Strikes, (and being away from my rulebook right now, and not being that up on the rule I'm not all that sure you can Vector Strike a flier) your Heldrake can do precisely nowt to enemy fliers. Huzzah! Majority of fliers out there should be able to lockdown a Heldrake quite nicely, and with just a simdgen of good fortune, sent it crashing and burning from a single volley.

[Caitsidhe]

I agree. I listen to endless complaints about people saying they just can't kill the Helldrake, but suggest they just pick up (or convert) a dedicated air-to-air killer and they throw a fit. Helldrakes are air-to-ground attack vehicles. Their Vector Strike is the only weapon they have against other planes if they have gone the Baleflamer route. Most other Flyers are mounting three or more high strength AP-2 or AP-1 weapons and make short work of it.

[Denzark]

Other Flyers....

Thinks abouts it precious....it's arguably even more obvious than it seems....

Heldrake with Burninator is seemingly the most popular kit out, and understandably so. Burns pretty much anyone out of cover. But, short of Vector Strikes, (and being away from my rulebook right now, and not being that up on the rule I'm not all that sure you can Vector Strike a flier) your Heldrake can do precisely nowt to enemy fliers. Huzzah! Majority of fliers out there should be able to lockdown a Heldrake quite nicely, and with just a simdgen of good fortune, sent it crashing and burning from a single volley.

MM - wrong - VS works against other fliers; this is why my heldrakes ARE my anti air choice.

[Caitsidhe]

MM - wrong - VS works against other fliers; this is why my heldrakes ARE my anti air choice.

Helldrakes are "part" of my overlapping AA defense, but I would never rely on the Vector Strike for all of it. It requires you get to hit them before they hit you which of course is almost entirely random. Moreover, the Daemonforge effect CANNOT be used for Vector Strikes so how efficacious it is against higher AR fliers is limited.

[Mr Mystery]

MM - wrong - VS works against other fliers; this is why my heldrakes ARE my anti air choice.

Ah cool. Totally not up on Vector Strikes!

Even so, its a fortunate foe indeed who finds his Heldrake in position to both VS your flier, and dakka up a worthwhile unit!

As discussed, the Heldrakes predominant role of ground attack is its greatest limiter. If it spends most of the time dodging a fellow aerial predator, its strike opportunities are suitably curtailed.

[OrksOrksOrks]

2 Dakkajets on a Waaugh turn. Just rolls so many dice, with a reroll, that they go bye bye

[Caitsidhe]

2 Dakkajets on a Waaugh turn. Just rolls so many dice, with a reroll, that they go bye bye

That would do it.

[OrksOrksOrks]

Also, they go dakka dakka dakka, so its more fun.

[LordGrise]

Dropping an entire flight of Tau Remoras on one works pretty good too... ::evil grin::

[MajorWesJanson]

1: 3x Land Speeder with 2x MM each, in a Codex where you can get a Divination Librarian (or ally). 6 TL MM shots, usually fast enough to get rear shots, is not what the Heldrake wants to sense behind it.
2: Tau allies. Twin-linked, Tank Hunter shots from the Quad-Gun (at BS5) plus 24 TL shots at S7 will take down 1 Heldrake each turn. That's 3 Broadsides + Missile Drones, Multi-tracker on them so you don't waste all of their firepower on one target (you could make them even nastier vs Flyers by changing that to a Velocity Tracker), and a Commander with the sensor suits and at least one Drone to fire the Quad Gun. And it's good against infantry/ground vehicles also.
3: Annihilation Barges. They average hitting against Flyers as if they were BS3 S7 shots, due to the Tesla "3 hits for the price of a 6" rule, and at only 90 pts each, they're a bargain for the firepower.
4: Storm Talon. With its all-around fire, once it gets behind the Heldrake, the Heldrake can't even Vector Strike it, and it can keep shooting it in the rear.
5: Lootas. BS 2, BS 1, big deal. Orks don't aim anyhow. On that topic, also the Warbuggies with tlRokkit are fast enough to get behind Heldrakes and twin-linked S8 shots against AV10 is annoying.
6: Spread out. It's far more dangerous when it hits 6 models with the Flamer instead of 4.
7: Terminators and Bikes. Bike squads lined end to end mean it can only Flame 3 at a time. Terminators are more worried about your Bolters than about your Heldrakes.

Counter-tactics for the Baledrake:
1. Landspeeders are 2 HP AV10 models, which the baleflamer can hit 2 at a time and glance on a 4. Vector strike is d3+1 auto-hits that glance on a 3.
2. Tau do have a lot better AA options. 1 hell drake is not a major threat, though multiples are. Stealthsuits, Pathfinders, and infantry are all quite vulnerable to the flamer. Crisis suits at least have a second wound, but two drake could take care of that problem.
3. Annie Barges are nasty. Necrons have little problems, as their cheap night scythes are also quite good at AA as well.
4. Similar to the Landspeeders, though not as easy to kill. D3+1 VS hits that glance on a 4 do nasty things to a 2 HP vehicle.
5. Lootas are fun, and weight of fire, but like most things, vulnerable to the flamer if they are packed in cover, and vunerable to everything else if they are not. Still, numbers are not all that good. 45 shots max at BS1 is 7.5 hits, so 1.25 glance and 1.25 pen. OK, but on average not going to kill a drake.
6. Always true. Not always practical, especially for things that rely on cover like stealth teams, low save models, pathfinders, ect.
7. Terminators are survivable, but don't really have too much that can hurt the Drake in return. And spreading out bikes is fine, but again, not always practical.


I agree. I listen to endless complaints about people saying they just can't kill the Helldrake, but suggest they just pick up (or convert) a dedicated air-to-air killer and they throw a fit. Helldrakes are air-to-ground attack vehicles. Their Vector Strike is the only weapon they have against other planes if they have gone the Baleflamer route. Most other Flyers are mounting three or more high strength AP-2 or AP-1 weapons and make short work of it.

DE Razorwing- 2 S8 AP2 lances.
DE Void Raven- 2 S9 AP2 lances
Valkyrie- single S9 AP2 lascannon, potentially 2 single shot S8 AP3 hellstrike missiles
Vendetta- 3 TL S9 AP2 Lascannons. Acknowledged as broken.
Storm Talon- TL S9 AP2 lascannon or S8 AP3 Heavy 2 Krak or S7 AP4 Heavy 3 Flakk missiles, TL S6 AP4 Rending Assault Cannon
Storm Raven- TL s9 AP2 Lascannon or TL S6 AP4 Rending Assault Cannon, TL S8 AP1 Multimelta. BA version has 4 single shot S8 AP1 missiles, Marine version has 4 single shot S8 AP2 concussive missiles.
Dakka Jet- 3 S6 AP4 Assault 3 Supashootas that are potentially Assault 6.
Night Scythe- TL S7 AP- Assault 4 with bonus hits
Doom Scythe- TL S7 AP- Assault 4 with bonus hits
Nephilim fighter- TL S9 AP2 Lascannon or S6 AP4 Heavy 5 cannon, 6 S6 Ap4 single shot missiles.
Dark Talon- can't hurt the Drake at all
Sun Shark- 2 TL S7 AP4 skyfire interceptor drone shots, 2 S8 AP3 single shot missiles.
Razorshark- S7 AP4 Heavy 4 turret, 2 single shot S8 AP3 missiles.

Only the Storm Ravens in HS slots and the Vendetta have more than 2 AP1 or 2 weapons. Some have 1 or 2, while some fighters have nothing with AP1 or 2.

[rtmaitreya]

Flood the board to keep them from landing in valuable locations. Any horde army should have this in spades. Specifically cover the band of movement including straight ahead at 18" and in a large semicircle at 36". Now when you shoot at it, you destroy the flyer on any result of Stun, Immobilize, or Explode, rather than only Explode. A stun forces straight ahead 18". . . if it can't do it, it dies. An immobilize is harder, because it can still turn but is locked at 36" velocity (unless it only moved 18" last round). This will usually force the flyer off the table if it can escape, and it will be stuck at 36" the rest of the game. Horde troop placement very effective way to double or triple your shooting effectiveness "for free".

[MajorWesJanson]

Flood the board to keep them from landing in valuable locations. Any horde army should have this in spades. Specifically cover the band of movement including straight ahead at 18" and in a large semicircle at 36". Now when you shoot at it, you destroy the flyer on any result of Stun, Immobilize, or Explode, rather than only Explode. A stun forces straight ahead 18". . . if it can't do it, it dies. An immobilize is harder, because it can still turn but is locked at 36" velocity (unless it only moved 18" last round). This will usually force the flyer off the table if it can escape, and it will be stuck at 36" the rest of the game. Horde troop placement very effective way to double or triple your shooting effectiveness "for free".

That sounds potentially useful, at least for immobilized, but the Drake ignores stunned results on a 2+

[Sly]

"Counter-tactics for the Baledrake:
1. Landspeeders are 2 HP AV10 models, which the baleflamer can hit 2 at a time and glance on a 4. Vector strike is d3+1 auto-hits that glance on a 3."

Yes, but the Heldrakes can only VS models that are within 30" or so of their table edge. You keep the Speeders back (or out of LOS, or in Reserve), wait for the Heldrakes to come in, then go behind them (if you can), or at least near them, and take the short-range MM shots. Other units in the opponent army could shoot the Speeders down before, but that's true for almost any AA option out there.

Remember that, against Heldrakes: their VS on their entry turn is limited to 30" or so from their table edge. That gives you 18" or so within which you can move your AA units and only have the Baleflamer to worry about.

[Nightspawn]

4: Storm Talon. With its all-around fire, once it gets behind the Heldrake, the Heldrake can't even Vector Strike it, and it can keep shooting it in the rear.


Why can't the Heldrake Vector Strike the Storm Talon?

[Mr Mystery]

Why can't the Heldrake Vector Strike the Storm Talon?

Positioning rather than ruling. Once a flier is on the tail of another flier, it's really hard to switch positions if your opponent doesn't want to.

[Freakeh]

I've shot my mates helldrake out of the sky plenty of times with my annihilation barges, night sycthes and doomsycthes!

[Caitsidhe]

Positioning rather than ruling. Once a flier is on the tail of another flier, it's really hard to switch positions if your opponent doesn't want to.

Well it can be done if you are willing to take the risk of dropping out of Zoom. I've gotten fliers on my tail before where I dropped to Hover so I could turn 180 and Vector Strike back over the guy (although often when they are on your tail you are already dead). It is better to have a fighting chance than none at all. If you go a 2nd Turn with a Flier on your tail you are largely dead. Your only options are to:

1. Go Fast and get off the board to come back in Ongoing Reserves with your tail shaken.
2. Drop to Hover (if you have the rule) and spin around to Vector Strike with the Helldrake.

You also get to spin around in Hover too so you will now be on "their" tail. You can be shot at by everything on the board though now and they won't need 6's to hit you.

[ted1138]

As an IG player I take the Officer of the Fleet, and roll on the Strategic Warlords chart, which helps reduce the enemies chances of reserves coming on in turns 2&3. My Anti Aircraft fire can easily deal with one Heldrake at a time, and if they manage to get two on at once, my Melta Guns dispersed throughout my army can finish them off...

[Caitsidhe]

As an IG player I take the Officer of the Fleet, and roll on the Strategic Warlords chart, which helps reduce the enemies chances of reserves coming on in turns 2&3. My Anti Aircraft fire can easily deal with one Heldrake at a time, and if they manage to get two on at once, my Melta Guns dispersed throughout my army can finish them off...

What specifically are you using for your AA?

[ted1138]

What specifically are you using for your AA?

A Quad gun and A Hydra Flak tank(I heard a plastic Hydra is in the works). I've had some luck putting Inq. Coteaz(GK allies) on the quad gun, using his special rule to get extra shots on top of the interceptor rule.

[ted1138]

I've been looking at the rules for Heldrakes, and they're not as scary as I've been led to believe. Most players seem to be using them wrong, as according to the rules, they can't Vector Strike and fire in the same turn...

[Caitsidhe]

I've been looking at the rules for Heldrakes, and they're not as scary as I've been led to believe. Most players seem to be using them wrong, as according to the rules, they can't Vector Strike and fire in the same turn...

Yes they can. Fliers can fire up to four weapons. The Vector Strike counts as one of those potential four. The Baleflamer as the second. If you want further confirmation of this in black and what you will find that you can even shoot at a different target per the rules than you used the Vector Strike on, which makes it implicit that you can do both.

[Power Klawz]

I've been looking at the rules for Heldrakes, and they're not as scary as I've been led to believe. Most players seem to be using them wrong, as according to the rules, they can't Vector Strike and fire in the same turn...

Wrong forum, trolls are in fantasy.

[Sly]

I've been looking at the rules for Heldrakes, and they're not as scary as I've been led to believe. Most players seem to be using them wrong, as according to the rules, they can't Vector Strike and fire in the same turn...

Didn't we just shoot down this idea a few week ago? It must have the It Will Not Go Away special rule.

[ted1138]

Yes they can. Fliers can fire up to four weapons. The Vector Strike counts as one of those potential four. The Baleflamer as the second. If you want further confirmation of this in black and what you will find that you can even shoot at a different target per the rules than you used the Vector Strike on, which makes it implicit that you can do both.

On page 80 of the BRB: "Zooming Flyers can fire up to four of their weapons using their full Ballistic Skill", it doesn't say they can fire four weapons, it says they can use their full BS on up to four of their weapons, the Heldrake has one weapon, thus it can only fire once, and since the VS counts as one weapon having fired, it has none left to fire in it's shooting phase, so can't shoot.

Also, it says on the VS rule "However, any additional weapons it fires that turn can choose a different target to that of the Vector Strike", ie, any weapons on the model in addition to the one that can't shoot.


PS, Zooming Flyers can fire more than four weapons, but only four of them can be fired at full BS.

[Power Klawz]

No.

Move along now.

[ted1138]

No.

Move along now.

Well, if you're going to use your powers of logic and reasoning on me, I might as well move on! :rolleyes:

[Koremu]

On page 80 of the BRB: "Zooming Flyers can fire up to four of their weapons using their full Ballistic Skill", it doesn't say they can fire four weapons, it says they can use their full BS on up to four of their weapons, the Heldrake has one weapon, thus it can only fire once, and since the VS counts as one weapon having fired, it has none left to fire in it's shooting phase, so can't shoot.

Also, it says on the VS rule "However, any additional weapons it fires that turn can choose a different target to that of the Vector Strike", ie, any weapons on the model in addition to the one that can't shoot.


PS, Zooming Flyers can fire more than four weapons, but only four of them can be fired at full BS.

Your logic here appears to be that because it has fired one weapon by using Vector Strike, it can't use any more weapons because it only has one weapon that isn't Vector Strike.

That's... not sensible.


It seems much more likely that it can use VS, and can fire its sole conventional weapon in the Shooting Phase, for a total of 2 weapons fired in the turn.

[ted1138]

Your logic here appears to be that because it has fired one weapon by using Vector Strike, it can't use any more weapons because it only has one weapon that isn't Vector Strike.

That's... not sensible.


It seems much more likely that it can use VS, and can fire its sole conventional weapon in the Shooting Phase, for a total of 2 weapons fired in the turn.


Vector strike isn't a weapon, and my "logic" goes like this: It has one weapon, it's only allowed to fire one weapon, that weapon counts as having been fired(VS), it can't fire it twice...

[daboarder]

Vector strike isn't a weapon, and my "logic" goes like this: It has one weapon, it's only allowed to fire one weapon, that weapon counts as having been fired(VS), it can't fire it twice...

Ted1138,

You have been shown time and time again where you are wrong. This all occurred in the relevant thread, you seem to think that the rest of us are merely ignorant and you are the sole source of enlightenment, ignoring all logic in blind service to your own idea.

TAKE IT TO THE PROPER THREAD ***

edit: How do you not see the logic hole?

It has one weapon, the rules say it can fire up to 4 weapons, they also say that you cannot fire the same weapon twice.
vector strike does not replace firing the baleflamer it only counts as firing one weapon.

so you have fired 2 weapons......

[Koremu]

Vector strike isn't a weapon, and my "logic" goes like this: It has one weapon, it's only allowed to fire one weapon

Aaaand that's where you are wrong. It's allowed to fire up to four weapons, it just only has one (or two) to actually fire

[ted1138]

Aaaand that's where you are wrong. It's allowed to fire up to four weapons, it just only has one (or two) to actually fire

Show me a rule that says a Zooming Heldrake can fire four weapons. There isn't one. There is though a rule that says it can fire one at full BS, it's on page 80 of the BRB.

[ted1138]

Ted1138,

You have been shown time and time again where you are wrong. This all occurred in the relevant thread, you seem to think that the rest of us are merely ignorant and you are the sole source of enlightenment, ignoring all logic in blind service to your own idea.

TAKE IT TO THE PROPER THREAD ***





edit: How do you not see the logic hole?

It has one weapon, the rules say it can fire up to 4 weapons, they also say that you cannot fire the same weapon twice.
vector strike does not replace firing the baleflamer it only counts as firing one weapon.

so you have fired 2 weapons......

I'm still waiting for you to show me the rule that says Zooming Flyers can fire four weapons. Maybe you can show it to me on the other thread?


As for logic hole, how can you not see: You have one weapon, you fire one weapon(counts as), you don't have any more weapons to fire...

[atlas_garon]

dual missle pod velocity trackered puretide tank hunter crisis team is my option cheap and mobile

[Mr Mystery]

I'm still waiting for you to show me the rule that says Zooming Flyers can fire four weapons. Maybe you can show it to me on the other thread?


As for logic hole, how can you not see: You have one weapon, you fire one weapon(counts as), you don't have any more weapons to fire...

Being able to fire four weapons, and expecting to fire one weapon four times are very different. And you know that.

Heldrakes have a single ranged weapon, mounted in it's gob. It can also perform Vector Strikes. Vector Strikes count as firing a weapon. Following that, it can fire up to three weapons. It can therefore fire it's Baleflamer or Hades Autocannon. Bish bash bosh, your logic is flawed dude.

[ted1138]

Being able to fire four weapons, and expecting to fire one weapon four times are very different. And you know that.

Heldrakes have a single ranged weapon, mounted in it's gob. It can also perform Vector Strikes. Vector Strikes count as firing a weapon. Following that, it can fire up to three weapons. It can therefore fire it's Baleflamer or Hades Autocannon. Bish bash bosh, your logic is flawed dude.

How can it fire three more weapons? Show me a rule that says it can. My logic is sound.

(and I didn't say anything about one weapon firing four times)

[Mr Mystery]

Zooming Fliers can fire four weapons.

Vector Strike does not require you to sacrifice the firing of a specific weapon, and is in fact an additional form of attack, which one can legitimately call a weapon in it's own right.

Why are you sticking to this so rigidly? Everyone you've asked so far has explained where you're going wrong.

Let's see if a different approach will work.

I can field a flying Hive Tyrant with absolutely no ranged weapons or psychic abilities. Therefore, having no weapon to substitute for the attack, according to your logic, it cannot therefore Vector Strike either....

[ted1138]

Zooming Fliers can fire four weapons.

Vector Strike does not require you to sacrifice the firing of a specific weapon, and is in fact an additional form of attack, which one can legitimately call a weapon in it's own right.

Why are you sticking to this so rigidly? Everyone you've asked so far has explained where you're going wrong.

Let's see if a different approach will work.

I can field a flying Hive Tyrant with absolutely no ranged weapons or psychic abilities. Therefore, having no weapon to substitute for the attack, according to your logic, it cannot therefore Vector Strike either....


If you're so sure of that, then why don't you quote the rule that says so?

[Mr Mystery]

Because I'm at work and taking a moment off to try and explain matters of logic to you?

I'm using you're own argument here matey.

Do you, or do you not agree, that a Flying Monstrous Creature given no ranged weapons, by your own explanation....cannot in fact vector strike.

[ted1138]

Because I'm at work and taking a moment off to try and explain matters of logic to you?

I'm using you're own argument here matey.

Do you, or do you not agree, that a Flying Monstrous Creature given no ranged weapons, by your own explanation....cannot in fact vector strike.

I think we should take this to the other thread(where I've already answered your question)...



Sorry to the OP, was not my intention at all to hijack/derail your thread, will not post any more on this one... :)

[Caitsidhe]

How can it fire three more weapons? Show me a rule that says it can. My logic is sound.

(and I didn't say anything about one weapon firing four times)

Look Ted, I don't want to come off rude (who am I kidding I love being rude) but the opinion you are putting forth isn't supported. I can start calling myself the King of Spain, truly believing it, but nobody is going to give me a crown. Saying the same thing over and over again isn't an argument. It isn't a good start to posting here either. When you are wrong, you man up and admit it. That is what adults do. I had to do it just the other day on a different issue regarding the Helldrake.

If it makes you feel better I understand the basis of your logic. It simply doesn't apply here. If/when Games Workshop suddenly puts out a Faq turning everything upside down, you can jump online here and titter with glee. Until then, please give it a rest so we can go back to the topic. Apology accepted.

[Learn2Eel]

You can tell just how much backlash the Heldrake has generated owing to the (rather silly) arguments springing up about its rules everywhere.

[Koremu]

You can tell just how much backlash the Heldrake has generated owing to the (rather silly) arguments springing up about its rules everywhere.

It's not even that good. It's just quite cheap for what it is.

For reference to anyone (even Ted) reading this thread, page 80 of the BRB conclusively states that he's wrong.

[ted1138]

It's not even that good. It's just quite cheap for what it is.

For reference to anyone (even Ted) reading this thread, page 80 of the BRB conclusively states that he's wrong.

Not if you actually read it, I'm not(sorry op, but if you and others keep talking about me I'm going to have to defend myself here).

@OP, just because it's the consensus, it doesn't make it right. I've been presenting facts, while others have been throwing tantrums and twisting the rules, all to their own benefit. This entire argument revolves around the rule on page 80, go read it, it doesn't say what you might think it says. Don't just go along with what everyone else is saying, dare to be different, even if others try to grind you down because of it...

[Koremu]

It says exactly what we think it says, because that's what it says! You're wrong, get over it.

[ted1138]

It says exactly what we think it says, because that's what it says! You're wrong, get over it.

That's about the most closed minded statement I have ever read. You must be very proud of yourself... :rolleyes:

[MajorWesJanson]

It says exactly what we think it says, because that's what it says! You're wrong, get over it.

Just ignore the troll.


That's about the most closed minded statement I have ever read. You must be very proud of yourself... :rolleyes:

Though I can't quite resist that setup:
"An open mind is like a fortress with the gates unbarred and unguarded."

[Caitsidhe]

@OP, just because it's the consensus, it doesn't make it right. I've been presenting facts, while others have been throwing tantrums and twisting the rules, all to their own benefit. This entire argument revolves around the rule on page 80, go read it, it doesn't say what you might think it says. Don't just go along with what everyone else is saying, dare to be different, even if others try to grind you down because of it...

In this case (games) it kind of does make it right. If 99% of the world plays the rule one way, it becomes "right" and will stay that way short of Games Workshop purposely changing it. You are free to feel however you want, and say it. You get down with your bad self. Just be aware that nobody is going to do it that way but you.

The recent millenial party back in 1999 is a good example. The ACTUAL millenial turn happened at midnight 2000, not 1999 when everyone had their parties and celebrated it. Just the same, if you had your party a year later (correct time/event) you were pretty much by yourself. :) I think you are wrong, but even if you were right it would be irrelevant. If I thought you were right I would "dare to be different" as you put it, but I don't.

[Blusox69]

The way I read it, the weapon used by the Helldrake during the vector Strike is the Helldrake itself, and not the weapon in its mouth, therefore it can use the mouth weapon in the shooting phase as one of its 3 remaining attacks 1 having being used up in the vector strike.

I think the confusion is over what weapon it attacks with in the vector strike, which is in fact it's own body/mass. It even says in the BRB that a vector strike uses the models unmodified strength and an AP of 3, not any of the models weapon stats.

[ted1138]

The way I read it, the weapon used by the Helldrake during the vector Strike is the Helldrake itself, and not the weapon in its mouth, therefore it can use the mouth weapon in the shooting phase as one of its 3 remaining attacks 1 having being used up in the vector strike.

I think the confusion is over what weapon it attacks with in the vector strike, which is in fact it's own body/mass. It even says in the BRB that a vector strike uses the models unmodified strength and an AP of 3, not any of the models weapon stats.

True, VS is not a shooting attack, but there are no "3 remaining attacks", there is no rule that gives Zooming Flyers the ability to fire four times.

And @ Caitsidhe, blindly going along with the crowd, and ignoring all reason and logic, does not make you right, if it did, the world would be flat!

[Mr Mystery]

Actually, not even Columbus, or his sponsors considered the world to be flat.

Pear Shaped, yes. But the 'flat earth' theory is something of an ubran myth.

[Mr.Pickelz]

Heres the best way to kill a Hell Drake, or even any flyer for that matter.

1.Take a Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun and Power Klaw and Attack Squig and cybork body,

2.get him onto an objective with Skyfire, and Target the Zooming flyer,

3. Roll duo 5's and then Assault the Zooming flyer at Str 9 ap2, flyer=Krump'd

4. Flyer crash and burns, with Big Mek counting as transported (so he would take the str 10 hit)

And then repeat four times if your points value are 2,000+ and you got some effective Orky AA

[Caitsidhe]

And @ Caitsidhe, blindly going along with the crowd, and ignoring all reason and logic, does not make you right, if it did, the world would be flat!

A disucssion of absolute reality versus perceptual reality belongs in its own thread. It suffices to say that Mr. Mystery touched on the Flat Earth myth accurately. I wanted to be nice but you are forcing me to put your view on the rule another way which might bring it home to you.

There is a name for people who view reality (or in this case rules) one way in absolute defiance of everyone else. Are you honestly suggesting you are the only sane person in a crazy world?

[Blusox69]

@ted1138

BRB page 80, last paragraph in bold

"Zooming Flyers can fire up to four of their weapons using their full ballistic skill if they have moved at either combat speed or cruising speed that turn"

???

[Power Klawz]

The obvious answer to this incorrect assertion is that the vector strike constitutes a separate weapon from whatever is mounted in the drakes mouth as evinced by the fact that there is no current precedent which allows you to or forces you to substitute one weapon for another in this circumstance. You are adding unncessary layers of arbitration to the process and therefore coming to an incorrect conclusion.

Vector striking means that the drake counts as firing a weapon in the next shooting phase.

A zooming flyer can fire up to 4 weapons at full BS in the shooting phase. A zooming heldrake which has vector striked in its previous movement phase counts as having fired one weapon, this is a conceptual weapon and is not directly represented in the units profile, it does not need to be. It counts as firing a weapon, it is a general action and it most certainly does not replace or circumvent any other weapon because NO SUCH RULE EXISTS OR IS IMPLIED.

The heldrake has a single weapon mounted on it, if it wishes to fire it after vector striking it may do so since it only counts as having fired a single "weapon" and thus may fire a second to no ill effect.

Take the converse, if the drake had experienced a weapon destroyed result due to damage and lost its baleflamer or autocannon, could it still vector strike? The answer is obviously yes because a vector strike is not a baleflamer or an autocannon, and the loss of such weapons does not impact the drake's ability to vector strike.

Now take an even simpler view and realize the obvious intent behind the rule. If it were the designers intent to make vector striking an either/or situation THEY WOULD HAVE SPECIFICALLY STATED SO.

Or in less words,

No

Move along now

[Mr Mystery]

PK.....you sure about the tellporta assault?

I'm, for some reason, under the impression the Shokk Attak gun is a blast weapon, and thus can't target Fliers?

[ted1138]

@ted1138

BRB page 80, last paragraph in bold

"Zooming Flyers can fire up to four of their weapons using their full ballistic skill if they have moved at either combat speed or cruising speed that turn"

???

"of their weapons" they can fire up to the number of weapons that the unit/model has "using their full ballistic skill". The rule is about Ballistic Skill, it is not about how many weapons can be fired. The number of weapons it can fire remains the same as any other vehicle.

@Power Klawz, I'm not adding anything extra to the rules, I'm simply pointing out that the above rule has been misinterpreted. Those disagreeing with me are the ones who are dragging in everything(plus the kitchen sink) to avoid re-reading that rule(and possibly realizing they were wrong)...

[Power Klawz]

PK.....you sure about the tellporta assault?

I'm, for some reason, under the impression the Shokk Attak gun is a blast weapon, and thus can't target Fliers?

You talkin' to me? 'Cause I didn't suggest that, as awesome as it sounds. You can't target flyers with blast weapons and therefore cannot shoot at them with the shokk attack gun, that's pretty straightforward. I'm also quite sure the Mr. Pickelz was being quite facetious when he mentioned it as effective anti-air, as even if it were possible to target a drake with a SAG the odds of those amazing circumstances occuring are rather slim.

Plus I can't remember but I don't think big meks can take power klawz.

@Ted: Nope, you wrong bro. I have read all the pertinent rules and have described to you precisely why you are wrong. You may be enriched by that knowledge or continue on in willful ignorance, such are the vaguaries of fate.

[Blusox69]

"of their weapons" they can fire up to the number of weapons that the unit/model has "using their full ballistic skill". The rule is about Ballistic Skill, it is not about how many weapons can be fired. The number of weapons it can fire remains the same as any other vehicle.

@Power Klawz, I'm not adding anything extra to the rules, I'm simply pointing out that the above rule has been misinterpreted. Those disagreeing with me are the ones who are dragging in everything(plus the kitchen sink) to avoid re-reading that rule(and possibly realizing they were wrong)...

All you have done there is added your own words into the GW rules. I'm beginning to think you may have some learning difficulties or are just being a bell end.

[Koremu]

"of their weapons" they can fire up to the number of weapons that the unit/model has "using their full ballistic skill". The rule is about Ballistic Skill, it is not about how many weapons can be fired. The number of weapons it can fire remains the same as any other vehicle.

@Power Klawz, I'm not adding anything extra to the rules, I'm simply pointing out that the above rule has been misinterpreted. Those disagreeing with me are the ones who are dragging in everything(plus the kitchen sink) to avoid re-reading that rule(and possibly realizing they were wrong)...

Yeah yeah, everyone is wrong except you... No.

You're adding the silly idea that the number of weapons present on a model supercedes the rules.

[Sly]

Though I can't quite resist that setup:
"An open mind is like a fortress with the gates unbarred and unguarded."

Yes, but... IT'S A TRAP!!!

[Blusox69]

So can a Helldrake with a weapon destroyed wound no longer vector strike?

[Koremu]

So can a Helldrake with a weapon destroyed wound no longer vector strike?

*golfclap* well played :rolleyes:

[rtmaitreya]

So can a Helldrake with a weapon destroyed wound no longer vector strike?

Not according to RAW, but according to one person RAI.

RTM

[Mr Mystery]

So, silly arguments aside.....

Can we approach this from the opposite direction.

If you're fortunate enough to have a Flier in your army, or indeed multiples, what are your strategies for keeping it in the game? What do you try to avoid? What are your prime targets?

[Blusox69]

Back on track. I'm a Tau player, so 2 or 3 broadsides with HYMP, give them SkyFire and join some one with a puretide chip to them to give tank hunter, then pop goes the helldrake.

[Sigmaril]

So can a Helldrake with a weapon destroyed wound no longer vector strike?

On the same note, can a Winged Daemon Prince, with no Shooting Weapons at all, not Vector Strike at all, unless they pay 30 points for a Burning Brand of Skalathrax and deciding not to use it? Or is this different for not being a vehicle?

[Blusox69]

So, silly arguments aside.....

Can we approach this from the opposite direction.

If you're fortunate enough to have a Flier in your army, or indeed multiples, what are your strategies for keeping it in the game? What do you try to avoid? What are your prime targets?

If I'm playing 2 or more flyers then air superiority is my initial aim, so prime targets for me are:

Units with intercept

Units with skyfire

Intercept first then chew away at the skyfire units, which i use ground forces for usually depending on the range of the units.. I also keep my flyers away from hoards which may just have a high enough volume of fire to get a few lucky hits. I use my Sunshark bomber as anti air if other flyers are present and then a very mobile markerlight platform more than I do for air to ground. Once enemy aircraft and anti air are done I start my bombing runs, usually to find my plasma bomb generator fails after the first run! ;-)

[Popsical]

I deal with fliers by shooting them with my space marines eye lasers. 20x st10 ap1 72" assualt shots with skyfire and interceptor soon smoke em!
Find me a rule that says i cant.